Clould computing and outsourcing

[tim.ca...@gmail.com]

Is cloud computing just another form of outsourcing, or something completely different? When I think of outsourcing 3.0, I think of the whole shift away from running IT, to buying IT as a service
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

[Ray DePena]

The Unisys CC leadership certainly thinks of it that way.  I'm sure many large providers do as well.

-RD

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 5:47 PM, <tim.ca...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is cloud computing just another form of outsourcing, or something completely different? When I think of outsourcing 3.0, I think of the whole shift away from running IT, to buying IT as a service
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

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[Debashish Sarkar]

Depends on the definition and perception.

Cloud computing is too broadly defined as of now.

Let's discuss a real life scenario. A company wants to implement an ALM
solution spread over US, Europe & Asia.

They have selected a an application. If they were to implement this
solution through a federated network architecture utilizing Amazon like
infrastructure from their US, Europe and Asia operations ( bandwidth is a
significant criteria coming in the way of a centralized deployment) would
you call this Cloud Computing?

Thanks,

Debashish

--------------------------------------------------
From: <tim.ca...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:47 PM
To: <cloud-c...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Clould computing and outsourcing

[Matthew.P...@kraft.com]

It has been my experience that they are different by nature of the contract. A typical outsourcing deal is very heavy with inventory, fixed monthly invoicing and long term commitments.  A true cloud experience has none of that, it is why it’s so appealing and at the same time scares the typical outsourcer.  It is a game changer and if the outsourcer doesn’t adapt their business model, they could be left in the dust.  Do I pay monthly for the next 99 years for a test server, or do I just go to a cloud provider, stand up a test server,  use it and then discard it when I’m done.  The decision is becoming pretty easy.

[Rao Dronamraju]

One way to do this is to take a look at some reasonable definition of CC
like NIST (http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SNS/cloud-computing/index.html), and
see how closely your application or what ever you are deploying meets the
definition criteria: Essential Characteristics, Service Models & Deployment
Models.

-----Original Message-----
From: Debashish Sarkar [mailto:d_sa...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:42 PM
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com

[Jim Starkey]

Debashish Sarkar wrote:

Depends on the definition and perception.

Cloud computing is too broadly defined as of now.

Let's discuss a real life scenario. A company wants to implement an ALM 
solution spread over US, Europe & Asia.

They have selected a an application.  If they were to implement this 
solution through a federated network architecture utilizing Amazon like 
infrastructure from their US, Europe and Asia operations ( bandwidth is a 
significant criteria coming in the way of a centralized deployment) would 
you call this Cloud Computing?

  

An ALM solution.  Indeed.  Would that be:

Alm may refer to:

• An alpine pasture
• Alm (river), Austria
• The protagonist of Fire Emblem Gaiden
• A stadium in Bielefeld, Germany, see "Bielefelder Alm"
• An historical liquid measure, see aam

ALM may refer to:

• Abundant Life Ministries
• Adaptive Logic Module, logic units found in Altera FPGAs
• Adobe License Manager
• Assembly Language for Multics
• Air ALM, formerly Antilliaanse Luchtvaart Maatschappij
• Alamein railway station, Melbourne, Australia, station code ALM
• Alamogordo-White Sands Regional Airport, from its IATA airport code
• Alnmouth railway station, from its National Rail code
• American Lawyer Media
• American Le Mans Racing Series
• Application lifecycle management
• Artium Liberalium Magister (Master of Liberal Arts)
• Asset liability management
• Alif Laam Mim, letter sequence in the Qur'an, see Muqatta'at
• Ag2r-La Mondiale, a bicycle racing team
• Arkansas, Louisiana and Missouri Railroad
• Audio-Lingual Method, of teaching foreign languages
• Augmented Lagrange Multiplier, in optimization studies

Or maybe something else?

-- 
Jim Starkey
Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
978 526-1376

[Ray Nugent]

Outsourcing 3.0 is when the Robots take jobs away from people instead of people taking them away from each other.

Ray

---

From: "tim.ca...@gmail.com" <tim.ca...@gmail.com>
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 5:47:00 PM

Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Clould computing and outsourcing

Is cloud computing just another form of outsourcing, or something completely different? When I think of outsourcing 3.0, I think of the whole shift away from running IT, to buying IT as a service
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

[Roland Rambau]

Tim,

tim.ca...@gmail.com schrieb:

> Is cloud computing just another form of outsourcing, or something completely different? When I think of outsourcing 3.0, I think of the whole shift away from running IT, to buying IT as a service

the language used for Cloud computing is very different,
but I strongly assume that it will have to comply with
the same laws and regulations that regulate outsourcing.

-- Roland


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[Ray DePena]

Good point Matthew.

-RD

[Jan Klincewicz]

Traditionally, outsourcing could be bringing in EDS or HP or IBM or Perot employees to run your internal data center.  Cloud (at least PUBLIC cloud) means the hardware is housed somewhere else (which could be co-location) except that you don't OWN the servers, you rent servers (usually virtual) as a service.  As you move up the food chain, you get more than bare servers, but OSs, OSs with API's or whole applications etc.)

That is the $00.02  version.
 

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 8:47 PM, <tim.ca...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is cloud computing just another form of outsourcing, or something completely different? When I think of outsourcing 3.0, I think of the whole shift away from running IT, to buying IT as a service
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

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Cheers,
Jan

[Eryndlia Mavourneen]

Tim,

I think that it depends upon what the cloud is built on top of and what services are offered in connection with what it is built on top of:

• Databases of all types with any number of services
• A collection of people and/or machines, which are both the cloud and users of the cloud -- could be a design team sharing dynamic resources
• Number crunching services offered by a cloud, which dynamically expand (up to a $$$ limit), as more resources are required
• Targeted simulations, that is, a predefined set of simulation services that could be offered.  The customer plugs in his/her own data, perhaps from a DB that already exists online.

Other ideas, anyone?

Eryndlia

Sent from Woodbridge, Virginia, United States

[Eryndlia Mavourneen]

Excellent, Rao.  Thank you.

Eryndlia

Sent from Woodbridge, Virginia, United States

[Rao Dronamraju]

But there is a big difference. You do not have to pay the Robot. You will still get your pay cheque!.

 

---

From: Ray Nugent [mailto:rnu...@yahoo.com]

Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:15 PM
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com

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[Billy Marshall]

Tim,
I call cloud computing "now sourcing." Here is the post I wrote on
the concept sometime back:

http://www.thecloudoption.com/2009/08/outsourcing-gives-way-to-now-sourcing.html

Let me know what you think. Good term? "Now Sourcing?"

[Ray DePena]

@Ray,

That's at least 10 years out before ubiquitous adoption. :-)

-RD

In the meantime, @Rao, you're right that having 10 people doing the job of 1 is not efficiency and productivity gains except that, that is how it shows up in a company's financial statements.

Lets say in the U.S. you have a single fully burdened headcount of $250k, and you offshore that position to a country where wages are much lower.  It doesn't matter if you hire 5-10 replacements for that position if your total costs are under the $250k.

If that's the case, the U.S. based company shows cost savings with less labor while maintaining the same rate of production, so "productivity" rises.

Rinse and repeat in aggregate and we get an economy that shows a decrease in labor costs and rising productivity.

So while you are correct that replacing 1 with 10 hardly seems efficient, what matters is not the real story, but the new financial picture that emerges, loved by Wall St., and viewed by economists as increased productivity.

-RD

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[Ray DePena]

And who pays for the operations and ongoing maintenance of the robot?

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+1.916.941.5558
Ray.D...@gmail.com

[Ray Nugent]

Tell that to the guys in Detroit...

---

From: Ray DePena <ray.d...@gmail.com>
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, November 22, 2009 9:10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Clould computing and outsourcing

[Ray DePena]

@Ray,

You said, "Outsourcing 3.0" I interpreted that as a forward looking vision of outsourcing. 

Robots replacing workers in Detroit has been happening for more than 10 years...

+1.916.941.5558
Ray.D...@gmail.com

[Timothy Caulfield]

Billy,

I just read your post and like the "Now Sourcing" concept. My thoughts
on Outsourcing 3.0 are very much inline with many of the points you
made with your post. I also appreciate the other comments and and
insights from the community. However, I don't see humans being
replaced with robots taking place for at least a few more years.

I agree that the current definitions of Cloud and Outsourcing are
different, but I can tell you that they are coming up in many of the
same conversations.

At Capto Consulting (www.capto-consulting.com) we are focused on the
IT OutSourcing Industry. We work with enterprise accounts to identify
areas to reduce the cost of technology, determine the best strategy to
achieve those cost reductions, and then implement the solution. For
clients that are already engaged in an outsourcing solution but are
not achieving their intended objectives, we work with them to "rescue"
the engagement. Cloud, (IaaS, PaaS and the more established SaaS), are
increasing being viewed as viable alternatives to traditional IT
Outsourcing solutions.

I had a recent conversation about Outsourcing and the Cloud, which
concluded that Cloud was about maintaing control and Outsourcing was
about giving up control. Although on the surface, this seems to have
merit, there are also many areas of control you give-up with Cloud
solutions.

Regardless of the how the terms are defined, in the minds of many of
the consumers - the IT Shops - Cloud provides them with more choices
on how to run technology and is viewed by many as just another form of
outsourcing. What is interesting is that many of the problems
prevalent with traditional technology outsourcing, are also there with
the Cloud. Implementations go wrong, service levels are missed, and
economic expectations are not meet. In many cases, the problems can be
traced to two key areas: 1) unclear expectations and objectives on the
front end and 2) poor implementations.

What is clear is that the owners and operators of technology is
continuing to shift away from the users of the technology. This is
taking on many forms from very tactical slices - the cloud - to the
use of hosting and colocation providers - to traditional IT
outsourcing - your mess for less - just to mention a few. These
solutions provide huge flexibility and real economic advantages, they
are also causing us to think differently about how we engage,
contract, and make use of the technology.

Tim

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Tim Caulfield

949-322-1185
tim.ca...@gmail.com

[ken_...@compuserve.com]

Tim Caulfield wrote

>> Is cloud computing just another form of outsourcing, or something
completely
different?

It's feasible that cloud computing could decrease outsourcing if the
responsibility for more new applications and web sites falls on
business units and departments instead of being the responsibility of
CIOs and IT organizations.

[ken_...@compuserve.com]

Matthew Petrusevski wrote:
>> It is a game changer

That was also true of the arrival of PCs and local-area networks in
corporate environments. Computing had been done with IT owning the
mainframe, applications and the budget for systems. The PC became a
game changer in corporate computing when PC networks were introduced in
the corporate environment.

That caused corporate infighting over who owned local-area networks and
the budget for their support. IT organizations took varied positions.
Some IT shops wanted none of the responsibility for supporting PCs or
PC networks. Others wanted to own all forms of computing. Some business
units wanted corporate IT to have no responsibility for developing
applications for their PCs and PC networks. They hired their own
employees and/or contractors to install networks, develop applications
and provide tech support.

Today the disruptive technology is cloud computing. Outsourcing
companies, particularly offshore outsourcers, have been working with
and marketing to CIOs and centralized IT for million-dollar contracts.
If application development responsibility shifts to the business unit
or department, the value of contracts will be much smaller and their
duration will be shorter.

[Sankar Nagarajan]

There is a positive aspect to outsourcing that the article doesnot
indicate.Here is what it is

The questions are

* What is the cost of migrating,porting and testing the Corporate
Applications to the Cloud environment/systems?
* How is this transition cost going to affect the bottomline of
corporate profits?
* How will this affect the business productivity and efficiencies when
the key corporate resources have more demands to spend their efforts
on strategic areas?
* If corporates are moving, non-strategic or non-mission
critical ,departmental applications to low cost clouds,it also becomes
impreative to manage them on a lower cost in an on going manner.
* Similarly,What is the cost involved in re-engineering a Software
product to a Single or multi-tenant Cloud or SaaS model for ISV type
of companies?

So,outsourcing services on the cloud have to be applied to optimising
non-core and non-strategic aspects of business that will help the
companies to focus more on the strategic areas of their business and
grow the toplines, which is infact good for the corporate America at
present! ....

Sankar
www.ikastech.com

[Michael Fehse]

ever watched "Terminator" ?

Michael 

[Rao Dronamraju]

@Ray, “And who pays for the operations and ongoing maintenance of the robot?”

Other robots…but according to Michael it is HollywoodJ

 

---

[Ray DePena]

With Arnold as Governator of Kalifornia, it's a requirement for all who move out here.

I believe Japan has a robot making factory which is run and operated by robots whose mission is to run and operate the factory to make more robots.

-RD

[Rao Dronamraju]

Look out! The robots are coming to take your job away

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6931585.ece

 

 

---

[davidnavetta]

I am not sure if the question makes sense in this context. It is sort
of like asking is running no different than running shoes. Or is auto
manufacturing different than Henry Ford's mass production auto
manufacturing.

Take the running example. Like “running,” outsourcing is a general
term describing an activity. In this case the activity involves
organizations offloading certain business processes to third parties.
Cloud computing (like “running shoes”) is a “new” method for
leveraging existing technologies (and technological improvements that
have occurred in the past 20 years) that can be used by outsourcers to
provide their services more effectively and cheaply (as running shoes
represents a technology that can be used to achieve the activity of
running more efficiently). In other words, one can outsource
utilizing a Cloud architecture provided by a third party, or by using
a more traditional dedicated third party hosted technology solution.
Both are different technologies or methods for achieving the same
activity: outsourcing of business processes.

[Miha Ahronovitz]

As long as hosting companies require fixed term  contracts and do not offer pay-per-use, this is not a cloud.
As long as the hosting companies do not offer as a service the charge back to invoice their customers' customers (should a hosting direct customer select to do so), this is not a cloud.

Tim if you look the cc archives, you will realize your question was answered many times on this forum.

Miha

---

From: davidnavetta <davidn...@gmail.com>
To: Cloud Computing <cloud-c...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, November 30, 2009 8:51:04 AM
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Clould computing and outsourcing

[Jan Klincewicz]

@Tim

This group is not a standards-creating body, and no single member dictates the definition of "Cloud Computing."  If you look through the archives you will see many arguments over it's definition, but the only reachable conclusion is that we will all need to "agree to disagree."

Most people seem to have accepted the NIST definition which describes "essential characteristics." Among these are "on-demand provisioning" and "measured service" but nowhere does it dictate that fixed-terms are not applicable, and the concept of "charge back" is not mentioned.

Please take with a grain of salt any "absolutes" posited by individuals arrogant enough to presume that they speak for the entire group, or that chastise you for not scouring the archives in order to find answers that support his/her agenda.

--
Cheers,
Jan

[scottxu]

Standards make sense when the interoperability is possible. Otherwise
they are most likely vendor-driven, or application-driven.

So what future applications will require is an interesting question
worthy of studies.

Scott

On Dec 2, 4:34 am, Jan Klincewicz <jan.klincew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> @Tim
>
> This group is not a standards-creating body, and no single member dictates
> the definition of "Cloud Computing."  If you look through the archives you
> will see many arguments over it's definition, but the only reachable
> conclusion is that we will all need to "agree to disagree."
>
> Most people seem to have accepted the NIST definition which describes
> "essential characteristics." Among these are "on-demand provisioning" and
> "measured service" but nowhere does it dictate that fixed-terms are not
> applicable, and the concept of "charge back" is not mentioned.
>
> Please take with a grain of salt any "absolutes" posited by individuals
> arrogant enough to presume that they speak for the entire group, or that
> chastise you for not scouring the archives in order to find answers that
> support his/her agenda.
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:21 AM, Miha Ahronovitz <mij...@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>
>
>
> > As long as hosting companies require fixed term  contracts and do not offer
> > pay-per-use, this is not a cloud.
> > As long as the hosting companies do not offer as a service the charge back
> > to invoice their customers' customers (should a hosting direct customer
> > select to do so), this is not a cloud.
>
> > Tim if you look the cc archives, you will realize your question was
> > answered many times on this forum.
>
> > Miha
>

> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* davidnavetta <davidnave...@gmail.com>
> > *To:* Cloud Computing <cloud-c...@googlegroups.com>
> > *Sent:* Mon, November 30, 2009 8:51:04 AM
> > *Subject:* [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Clould computing and outsourcing

> >http://groups.google.ca/group/cloud-computing/web/frequently-asked-qu...
> > Follow us on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/cloudcomp_groupor
> > @cloudcomp_group
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> >http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H07SEC,

> >http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H0IW1Uor get instant access to

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[Miha Ahronovitz]

Jan  I know  that there are more than one truth co-existing.

But if you convince Amazon just to stop measuring and  billing , and they just do "on-demand provisioning" , then your definition of cloud, where everything is optional,  is real.

 

You answer the question to Tim, in a different way? Please do. It may be we are both right, or not. As long as you give Tim food for thought, this is a contribution, rather semi-veiled vendetta.

 

M

 

 

From: Jan Klincewicz [mailto:jan.kli...@gmail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 4:34 AM
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com

[Fabrice Cathala]

Tim,

I think that a "new outsourcing model" is a very good way to define
the concept of Cloud Computing and explain its advantages (scale
savings, best practices, etc...) without going into the details of the
technical implementation/architecture.

I personaly believe that old fashioned IT outsourcing was made
challenging by the difficult task of properly handing-over an
infrastructure different for each customer.
With Cloud Computing, the infrastructure is a known entity that is
easy to support and easier to provide an SLA for...

Of course, there are many other things to say about Cloud Computing
but I thought these would answer your question.

Thanks

Fabrice
http://www.linkedin.com/in/FabriceCathala

[Jan Klincewicz]

Fabrice:

Just to briefly expand on your comment (without getting TOO technical) the challenges faced a decade ago with regards to heterogeneous infrastructures have been mitigated by both advancements in Grid-based architectures (with decreasing dependency on specific underlying hardware)  and server virtualization by use of hypervisors.  Both these techniques abstract the physical infrastructure to varying degrees allowing for ease of manageability, rapid deployment, measureability and transportability.

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[Fabrice Cathala]

Jan,

Thanks for your comment.
I have to say my answer was biased toward SaaS more than the lower
layers which involve more and more IT, or "outsource less and less"...

Cheers,

Fabrice

On Jan 3, 2:46 pm, Jan Klincewicz <jan.klincew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Fabrice:
>
> Just to briefly expand on your comment (without getting TOO technical) the
> challenges faced a decade ago with regards to heterogeneous infrastructures
> have been mitigated by both advancements in Grid-based architectures (with
> decreasing dependency on specific underlying hardware)  and server
> virtualization by use of hypervisors.  Both these techniques abstract the
> physical infrastructure to varying degrees allowing for ease of
> manageability, rapid deployment, measureability and transportability.
>

> >http://groups.google.ca/group/cloud-computing/web/frequently-asked-qu...
> > Follow us on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/cloudcomp_groupor
> > @cloudcomp_group

> > Post Job/Resume athttp://cloudjobs.net

> > Buy 88 conference sessions and panels on cloud computing on DVD at
> >http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H07SEC,

> >http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H0IW1Uor get instant access to