“Tweaking compilers is not the answer. Perhaps re-vamping our Education system is. “
How many human beings can handle multi-tasking?...Human beings/brains are
sequential entities, hence the problem.
I would say that today we have sufficient computing power and
capabilities for any sort of tasks worth working on.
Yeap, it is all about humans and their education, or lack thereof....
It is not that recession cannot be predicted - it is matter of when,
not if, in a growth oriented system - it is just many humans benefit
from denial
On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 4:07 AM, Peglar, Robert
<Robert...@xiotech.com> wrote:
>
> @Rao, good points all. However, the models are only as good as the
> built-in assumptions...e.g. one of the recession triggers was that the
> 'wunderkind' quants on the Street assumed a 6-8% annual increase in
> housing prices, FOREVER, when they built their CDS models and sold the
> resultant product to unwitting buyers.
>
--
Konstantin Ignatyev
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate
between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons
of topsoil, add 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase
their population by 263,000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement
Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New
York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
“Now I do handle multi-tasking pretty well. I am working on three project at the same time. People might argue that I am doing a round robin kind of thing. It might be true. But with the help of the computer I can compile one application, test another while I am writing a post to this forum. That amounts to three tasks in parallel.”
I used the wrong word….I should have said parallel/concurrent not multi-tasking. What you are doing is sequential “I can compile one application, test another while I am writing a post to this forum” just as you wrote it, not parallel.
Parallel is when you can do the following at the same time
1234567 X 1234567
7899665 X 7655433
5677889 X 9900654
Remember the key word is SAME TIME. If you have completed the first multiplication at say 8:30:55 pm, you should complete the other two also 8:30:55. Now try it!.
Actually human beings do parallel processing in some respects. For instance most visual information processing, for instance what you see in front of you the 3-dimesional space, is processed
in parallel by your brain. But most tasks involving “analytical” work is processes by brain sequential. Infact I think even the 3-dimesinonal visual information that the brain is processing is being PERCEIVED in parallel but PROCESSED/COGNITION sequentially. The only difference is it is happening at such nano-second speeds that it appears as if parallel.
Human mind/brain can perceive only objects. It cannot perceive processes. The world (and may be the universe) consists of only one PERCEIVABLE entity – objects. Although a process (the other entity of the world) cannot be perceived by human beings, it can be COGNIZED/understood. So objects in the world are perceived in parallel but the semantics associated with objects, the relationships between objects and also processes, is understood sequentially. So human brain hits the breaks (in parallel processing) as soon it needs to process the relationships and semantics between the objects of the world and needs to get sequential. I am not sure whether this limitation is at the biological level or at the behavior (learning) level.
I think we might have digressed from the main point of Gerg’s post.
In order for us to exploit multi-cores and paralleization of clouds, we need to program parallel processing.
In order to program in parallel processing, one (human being) needs to have the ability think/process parallel.
This is a very difficuilt skill for a human being. It is easy for machines but the machines do what human beings ask them to do.
If human beings cannot think or perform in parallel, machines similarly will be limited.
D. Performance optimization for multicore processors, specifically on Nehalem
B. In the modern multicore processing, each socket CPU and each core has execution units, cache, memory channels, I/O channels. Under NUMA (Non-Uniform Memory Access) a processor can access its own local memory faster than non-local memory, that is, memory local to another processor or memory shared between processors. Topological Scheduling allows to schedule jobs at core level or CPU level according to its unique needs. The use of Topological Scheduling has resulted in dramatic performance increases when tested at leading EDA customers.
http://my-inner-voice.blogspot.com/2009/10/features-in-both-sun-grid-engine-6.html
This feature is an update, as in the past grids (and now clouds) traditional management software assumes a single core CPU at each node.
These type of optimizations are processor specific (in this case Nehalem). The throughput improves spectacularly. Yet there is long way to make an algorithm for falling in love and avoid a divorce.
Interesting as people, making errors is part of uncertainty -therefore happiness - of life. If we all knew the future, our life will be unbearable. did anyone read "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" of Milan Kundera?
miha
Here are some interesting articles about parallel programming and its degree of difficuilty or not. ��when we start talking about parallelism and ease of use of truly parallel computers, we�re talking about a problem that�s as hard as any that computer science has faced. � I would be panicked if I were in industry.�
�Now I do handle multi-tasking pretty well. I am working on three project at the same time. People might argue that I am doing a round robin
kindof thing. It might be true. But with the help of the computer I cancompile oneapplication, test another while I am writing a post to this forum. Thatamounts
to three tasks in parallel.� � I used the wrong word�.I should have said parallel/concurrent not multi-tasking. What you are doing is sequential �I can compile one application, test another while I am writing a post to this forum� just as you wrote it, not parallel. � Parallel is when you can do the following at the same time � 1234567 X 1234567 7899665 X 7655433 5677889 X 9900654 � Remember the key word is SAME TIME. If you have completed the first multiplication at say 8:30:55 pm, you should complete the other two also 8:30:55. Now try it!. � Actually human beings do parallel processing in some respects. For instance most visual information processing, for instance what you see infrontof you the 3-dimesional space, is processed in parallel by your brain. But most tasks involving �analytical� work is processes by brain sequential. Infact I think even the
3-dimesinonalvisual information that the brain is processing is being PERCEIVED inparallelbut PROCESSED/COGNITION sequentially. The only difference is it ishappening at
such nano-second speeds that it appears as if parallel. � Human mind/brain can perceive only objects. It cannot perceive processes. The world (and may be the universe) consists of only onePERCEIVABLEentity � objects. Although a process (the other entity of the world) cannot be perceived by human beings, it can be COGNIZED/understood. So
objects inthe world are perceived in parallel but the semantics associated withobjects,the relationships between objects and also processes, is understood sequentially. So human brain hits the breaks (in parallel processing) assoonit needs to process the relationships and semantics between the objects oftheworld and needs to get sequential. I am not sure whether this limitationis at
the biological level or at the behavior (learning) level. � � From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
cloud-c...@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Alejandro Espinoza Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:54 AM To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Multicore vs. Cloud Computing � Rao, � "How many human beings can handle multi-tasking?...Human beings/brains are sequential entities, hence the problem. " � You are right.� Not many human beings can handle multi-tasking. also no many human beings can handle a multiplication of 5642392� by 42325 without help. � I think we need to start teaching about multi-tasking and parallelism to future generations. It is a problem of education. Just because we can'tdoit now, doesn't mean we are never going to make it. � Now I do handle multi-tasking pretty well. I am working on three project at the same time. People might argue that I am doing a round robin
kindof thing. It might be true. But with the help of the computer I cancompile oneapplication, test another while I am writing a post to this forum. Thatamounts
to three tasks in parallel. � Now what I do might not be of help to everyone, and not every task can be parallelized. But that means as human beings, we are capable of
thinkingabout parallel tasks, with the help of the computer or 'tools', but thatisexactly what parallelism is all about: Getting help. And we can learn tothinkon structuring problems in a set of concurrent tasks so that we can gethelp
either in a form of a computer or tool, or just another human being. � Regards, Alex. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:01 PM, Rao Dronamraju <rao.dro...@sbcglobal.net >wrote: � �Tweaking compilers is not the answer.� Perhaps re-vamping our Education system is.�� � How many human beings can handle multi-tasking?...Human beings/brains are sequentialentities,hence the problem. � From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Jan Klincewicz Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:36 PM To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Multicore vs. Cloud Computing � Recognizing multi-thread / multi-core / multi-CPU is not a new issue unique to Cloud.� We have had SMP since the early 90's with few apps (or even OperatingSystems)taking full advantage.� This is a not a new issue, but an old one.� Software not keeping up with hardware.� Tweaking compilers is not the answer.� Perhaps re-vamping our Education system is.� On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Alejandro Espinoza < aesp...@structum.com.mx > wrote: Greg, I agree with you. Multicore has to be accounted in the clouds. Azure and
-- Cheers, Jan � � -- Alex Espinoza | Axis Technical Group | Software Development Manager phone: 714-491-2636 office | 714-470-7125 cell--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ ~~~~~ Posting guidelines: http://groups.google.ca/group/cloud-computing/web/frequently-asked-questions Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/cloudcomp_group or @cloudcomp_group Post Job/Resume at http://cloudjobs.net Buy 88 conference sessions and panels on cloud computing on DVD at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H07SEC, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H0IW1U or get instant access to downloadable versions at http://cloudslam09.com/content/registration-5.html ~~~~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cloud Computing" group. To post to this group, send email to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cloud-computi...@googlegroups.com -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
-- Jim Starkey Founder, NimbusDB, Inc. 978 526-1376
“If you tell me how you select a wife, why we
love music and detest noise.
Why we dream and what dream men. Perhaps an algorithm to fall in love?”
Sure, you have touched on another interesting aspect of how human brain functions including FEELINGS.
The way this works is, first human being perceives things. The pereception is processed to cognition and mapped on to a feeling domain.
So you learn patterns in the world that have associated feelings in your mind,
Infact that is why you see most people will select someone as a wife/partner who has SIMILAR thinking/life-style. The reason fror this you have, through habits in life, have formed patterns that give you good feelings or bad feelings. You will select a wife who would match those patterns that map to good feelings.
Note that these patterns are formed in life by living them day in and day out. Another way of sayng is through your habits. Infact there is a saying that says “Man is a creature of habit”
Infact human beings are such prisoners of their habits/patterns that even their THINKING/THOUGHTS is a pattern in itself.
The more you practice a thought more it becomes a subconciuos activity. So ones it becomes a subconcious activity, the activity happens at a subconcious level.
For instance, we all have driven to work without thinking about the route some time or the other. How can we do this?..
The reason for this is, you have practiced driving on that route many times and so it has become a habit and hence a pattern is formed in your mind.
You cannot do this with a totally new route.
So yes, you have formed an algorithm to fall in love through your leaning habits in life as to what patterns attract you and how these patterns map into the feeling domain in your brain, whether the attributes are physical or mental/personality.
“Why we dream and what dream men”
I do not know much about dreams. I will write about dreams after I learn more about them.
“can the cloud, or any machine solve this problems?”
We are not talking about FEELINGS here, we were talking about machines being intelligent. We all know that today machines do the same intelligent work that human beings do and they have NO FEELINGS. So clouds could have machines that in future will meet or exceed human intelligence but no they are not going to have feelings. But then who knows the machines may be just too good at hiding their feelings like many human beingsJ
“Yet there is long way to make an algorithm for falling in love and avoid a divorce.”
You can create an alogroithm that will recognize/learn all the patterns/behavior that a human being does in love or divorce and reproduce them except for feelings. But actions/behavior associated with feelings can also be generated by machines if taught to do so.
“Interesting as people, making errors is part of uncertainty -therefore happiness - of life. If we all knew the future, our life will be unbearable.”
It depends. There is good uncertainity and bad uncertainity. Take for instance, the present great recession. If there was enough intelligence in learning and understanding the entire economic system in breadth and depth in space and time, may be we could have thwarted such a faisco where couple of trillion dollars from the economy have been suckedout, how many people lost their retirement savings or wealth built in the markets. Similarly wars can be avoided where thousands of people have died and trillion dollars were spent and we had to comeback and say we were UNCERTAIN about WMD.
So like all things it is a matter of whether you use it for good or bad.
From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Miha Ahronovitz
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009
11:11 PM
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re:
Multicore vs. Cloud Computing
Human brain's working in
the context of analytical work.
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Reality time, folks. Multi-threading and multi-core programming are not difficult, and be taught straightforwardly, and the current generation of software engineers, raised in Java, come pre-tooled.
But first, some basics. Multi-threading is the issue, not multi-cores. Any correct multi-threading code will work just fine in multi-cores. Even more happily, incorrect multi-threading code will fail more quickly in a multi-core environment, simplifying everyone's lives.
Multi-threaded programming is used for basically three distinct purposes. One is to coordinate shared access to single resource. This is what database systems do internally. A second is handle a variety of inherently asynchronous events, like messages arriving on different sockets, keystrokes and mouse events from a user, all the while keeping the screen refreshed. The third, which is new with the advent of multi-core processors, is to speed up an operation by using multiple processors in parallel.
Threading to manage shared resources and multiple event sources have been around for decades, and any experienced software engineer can be expected to manage without breaking a sweat. There are legacy problems that a lot of gibberish has been written on the topic, and Unix traditionally has been a dreadful platform for threading, but these issues are gradually passing.
Threading to reduce latency is relative new, and for many programmers, more difficult. The difficulty, however, is not the actual code, but in decomposing a problem in such a way that it can be efficiently handled in parallel. In many cases, it may be a great deal smarted to decompose the problem to use map/reduce on multiple servers will be a better solution that multi-threading.
Most applications, however, don't require multi-threading with data sharing and consistency handled in a database system and message handled managed by an application server. Most application receive user input, perform some database operations, and spit out the result, leaving threading to the database and application servers.
Applications like image rendering are a different ball of wax, but again, relatively unusual.
Multi-threading and/or multi-core processing is not worth losing sleep over. A more productive thing to worry about is how to use large numbers of really cheap processors to "chip" away at computationally large problems. It is almost always cheaper to buy a large number of commodity boxes than a few very expensive computrons. And, happily, when you figured out how to exploit a large number of cheap commodity boxes, you're probably had to figure out how to handle failover gracefully, leaving to not only faster and cheaper systems, but more reliable and available ones, too.
Rao Dronamraju wrote:Here are some interesting articles about parallel programming and its degree of difficuilty or not. “…when we start talking about parallelism and ease of use of truly parallel computers, we’re talking about a problem that’s as hard as any that computer science has faced. … I would be panicked if I were in industry.”
“Now I do handle multi-tasking pretty well. I am working on three project at the same time. People might argue that I am doing a round robin
kindof thing. It might be true. But with the help of the computer I cancompile oneapplication, test another while I am writing a post to this forum. Thatamounts
to three tasks in parallel.” I used the wrong word….I should have said parallel/concurrent not multi-tasking. What you are doing is sequential “I can compile one application, test another while I am writing a post to this forum” just as you wrote it, not parallel. Parallel is when you can do the following at the same time 1234567 X 1234567 7899665 X 7655433 5677889 X 9900654 Remember the key word is SAME TIME. If you have completed the first multiplication at say 8:30:55 pm, you should complete the other two also 8:30:55. Now try it!. Actually human beings do parallel processing in some respects. For instance most visual information processing, for instance what you see infrontof you the 3-dimesional space, is processed in parallel by your brain. But most tasks involving “analytical” work is processes by brain sequential. Infact I think even the
3-dimesinonalvisual information that the brain is processing is being PERCEIVED inparallelbut PROCESSED/COGNITION sequentially. The only difference is it ishappening at
such nano-second speeds that it appears as if parallel. Human mind/brain can perceive only objects. It cannot perceive processes. The world (and may be the universe) consists of only onePERCEIVABLEentity – objects. Although a process (the other entity of the world) cannot be perceived by human beings, it can be COGNIZED/understood. So
objects inthe world are perceived in parallel but the semantics associated withobjects,the relationships between objects and also processes, is understood sequentially. So human brain hits the breaks (in parallel processing) assoonit needs to process the relationships and semantics between the objects oftheworld and needs to get sequential. I am not sure whether this limitationis at
the biological level or at the behavior (learning) level. From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
cloud-c...@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Alejandro Espinoza Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 10:54 AM To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Multicore vs. Cloud Computing Rao, "How many human beings can handle multi-tasking?...Human beings/brains are sequential entities, hence the problem. " You are right. Not many human beings can handle multi-tasking. also no many human beings can handle a multiplication of 5642392 by 42325 without help. I think we need to start teaching about multi-tasking and parallelism to future generations. It is a problem of education. Just because we can'tdoit now, doesn't mean we are never going to make it. Now I do handle multi-tasking pretty well. I am working on three project at the same time. People might argue that I am doing a round robin
kindof thing. It might be true. But with the help of the computer I cancompile oneapplication, test another while I am writing a post to this forum. Thatamounts
to three tasks in parallel. Now what I do might not be of help to everyone, and not every task can be parallelized. But that means as human beings, we are capable of
thinkingabout parallel tasks, with the help of the computer or 'tools', but thatisexactly what parallelism is all about: Getting help. And we can learn tothinkon structuring problems in a set of concurrent tasks so that we can gethelp
either in a form of a computer or tool, or just another human being. Regards, Alex. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:01 PM, Rao Dronamraju <rao.dro...@sbcglobal.net >wrote: “Tweaking compilers is not the answer. Perhaps re-vamping our Education system is. “ How many human beings can handle multi-tasking?...Human beings/brains are sequentialentities,hence the problem. From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com ]
On Behalf Of Jan Klincewicz Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:36 PM To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [ Cloud Computing ] Re: Multicore vs. Cloud Computing Recognizing multi-thread / multi-core / multi-CPU is not a new issue unique to Cloud. We have had SMP since the early 90's with few apps (or even OperatingSystems)taking full advantage. This is a not a new issue, but an old one. Software not keeping up with hardware. Tweaking compilers is not the answer. Perhaps re-vamping our Education system is. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Alejandro Espinoza < aesp...@structum.com.mx > wrote: Greg, I agree with you. Multicore has to be accounted in the clouds. Azure and
-- Cheers, Jan -- Alex Espinoza | Axis Technical Group | Software Development Manager phone: 714-491-2636 office | 714-470-7125 cell
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Alex,
My apologies if I have come across a bit rude in my reply to you. Actually I type a reply quickly and post it generally without re-reading it for netiquette.
Nothing intentional…..
Here are couple of links that approaches the issue from (cognitive) psychology perspective.
“These results suggest that a neural network of frontal lobe areas acts as a central bottleneck of information processing that severely limits our ability to multitask.”
Summary…..
Details are here…..
Regards,
Rao
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Greg,
Ole'. Some good amount of basic info here and it's standardized -
cheers!!!!
VJ
Digvijay "VJ" Singh Rathore
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Greg,
Another parallel I thought I could draw while we discuss parallel and sequential -
From the fab-less design using Verilog/VHDL compared to C, which I used earlier, this was(below) important for us to understand right from the start while starting to program using the languages to build custom FPGA's.....
Of course, one key difference between hardware and software is how they "run." A hardware design consists of many elements all running in parallel. Once the device is powered on, every element of the hardware is always executing. Depending on the control logic and the data input, of course, some elements of the device may not change their outputs. However, they're always "running."
In contrast, only one small portion of an entire software design (even one with multiple software tasks defined) is being executed at any one time. If there's just one processor, only one instruction is actually being executed at a time. The rest of the software can be considered dormant, unlike the rest of the hardware. Variables may exist with a valid value, but most of the time they're not involved in any processing.
This difference in behavior translates to differences in the way we program hardware and software code. Software is executed serially, so that each line of code is executed only after the line before it is complete (except for nonlinearities on interrupts or at the behest of an operating system).
Thoughts??? VJ Singh |
Digvijay "VJ" Singh Rathore
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