Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400% improvement - shrinking data centers
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Ray DePena
Dec 9, 2009, 6:05:02 PM12/9/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
Imagine what it can do for all levels of government....
Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds
Verizon Communications has reduced operating costs and boosted IT efficiency 400% by restructuring its cloud-computing processes internally and switching to a virtual approach in its data center through an aggressive process of consolidating its hardware and software platforms, the company said at an industry event today. "We were able to reduce our costs to one-third or less of what we were spending," said Fari Ebrahimi, chief information officer for Verizon Services
Best Regards,
Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
+1.916.941.5558
Ray.D...@gmail.com
Twitter: @RayDePena
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/raydepena
Imagine what it can do for all levels of government....
Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds
Verizon Communications has reduced operating costs and boosted IT efficiency 400% by restructuring its cloud-computing processes internally and switching to a virtual approach in its data center through an aggressive process of consolidating its hardware and software platforms, the company said at an industry event today. "We were able to reduce our costs to one-third or less of what we were spending," said Fari Ebrahimi, chief information officer for Verizon Services
Best Regards,
Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
+1.916.941.5558
Ray.D...@gmail.com
Twitter: @RayDePena
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/raydepena
Ray
Dec 9, 2009, 8:41:16 PM12/9/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
400% is pretty good and it sure will look good on those Verizon Cloud brochures. :)
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Jan Klincewicz
Dec 9, 2009, 9:43:58 PM12/9/09
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You do have to consider the baseline... A 400% increase in efficiency of a system that was 1000% inefficient to begin with is not necessarily a huge leap forward.
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Jan
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Cheers,
Jan
Ray DePena
Dec 9, 2009, 9:52:59 PM12/9/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
On the contrary, it may have been grossly inefficient before at 1000%, but it has made a first great step towards eliminating that inefficiency by 400%. Sure, ideally, there would be no inefficiency at all, but I'd rather see improvement of 400% than an improvement of 1-10% on 1000% inefficiency.
-RD
-RD
Tim M. Crawford
Dec 9, 2009, 10:04:39 PM12/9/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Jan, good point. As more information becomes available, it will be interesting how much of this came from virtualization alone vs. application consolidation and other efforts.
If anyone has additional information on the details that were shared at the meeting (or if they know separately), that would be great. Of course, we could speculate. But it would be more interesting to see how they came up with that figure.
Regards,
-t
____________________________________
Tim M. Crawford
Rao Dronamraju
Dec 10, 2009, 12:51:37 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Isn’t this interestingly confusing?....
They have derived 400% efficeincy from an internal cloud?....a private cloud?...or a public cloud?....
If it is a private cloud, have they implemented chargeback model and FIXEDJ the pricing to get 400% efficiency?...
They are also a CSP, is it not?....
If so, have they moved themselves to their own public clouds, and they are charging themselves what they charge others in their public clouds?....hence the 400% efficiency?...
Does this mean they have pretty low pricing?...or extraordinarily high data center costs?....
or have they moved themselves to someone else’s public clouds?....like AT&TJ
What is Verizon eating?...or smoking?:-)
BTW, on that note, have you all heard about AT&T not being able to support iPhone traffic.
If they cannot support iPhones, can they support cloud traffic?...or is iPhone bandwidth needs are much higher than cloud clients’ needs considering that millions use iPhone.
phillyjazz
Dec 10, 2009, 1:50:23 PM12/10/09
to Cloud Computing
I make this point only because I was employed by Verizon's predecessor
(Bell Atlantic) for over a dozen years, and was witness to the gross
inefficiency that can occur when there is no accountability and
seemingly limitless funds in an oligopolistic market. I am not about
to libel the "Phone Company" in a public forum, but it is pretty easy
to calculate 400% savings in ANY newly-virtualized environment
especially when you have nowhere to go but up.
On Dec 9, 10:04 pm, "Tim M. Crawford" <tim.crawf...@me.com> wrote:
> Jan, good point. As more information becomes available, it will be interesting how much of this came from virtualization alone vs. application consolidation and other efforts.
>
> If anyone has additional information on the details that were shared at the meeting (or if they know separately), that would be great. Of course, we could speculate. But it would be more interesting to see how they came up with that figure.
>
> Regards,
>
> -t
> ____________________________________
> Tim M. Crawford
> +1.650.804.1300http://www.linkedin.com/in/timcrawford/
> > Follow us on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/cloudcomp_groupor @cloudcomp_group
> > Post Job/Resume athttp://cloudjobs.net
> > Follow us on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/cloudcomp_groupor @cloudcomp_group
> > Post Job/Resume athttp://cloudjobs.net
(Bell Atlantic) for over a dozen years, and was witness to the gross
inefficiency that can occur when there is no accountability and
seemingly limitless funds in an oligopolistic market. I am not about
to libel the "Phone Company" in a public forum, but it is pretty easy
to calculate 400% savings in ANY newly-virtualized environment
especially when you have nowhere to go but up.
On Dec 9, 10:04 pm, "Tim M. Crawford" <tim.crawf...@me.com> wrote:
> Jan, good point. As more information becomes available, it will be interesting how much of this came from virtualization alone vs. application consolidation and other efforts.
>
> If anyone has additional information on the details that were shared at the meeting (or if they know separately), that would be great. Of course, we could speculate. But it would be more interesting to see how they came up with that figure.
>
> Regards,
>
> -t
> ____________________________________
> Tim M. Crawford
>
> On Dec 9, 2009, at 6:43 PM, Jan Klincewicz wrote:
>
> > You do have to consider the baseline... A 400% increase in efficiency of a system that was 1000% inefficient to begin with is not necessarily a huge leap forward.
>
> On Dec 9, 2009, at 6:43 PM, Jan Klincewicz wrote:
>
> > You do have to consider the baseline... A 400% increase in efficiency of a system that was 1000% inefficient to begin with is not necessarily a huge leap forward.
>
> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
>
> > Imagine what it can do for all levels of government....
>
> > Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds
> > Verizon Communications has reduced operating costs and boosted IT efficiency 400% by restructuring its cloud-computing processes internally and switching to a virtual approach in its data center through an aggressive process of consolidating its hardware and software platforms, the company said at an industry event today. "We were able to reduce our costs to one-third or less of what we were spending," said Fari Ebrahimi, chief information officer for Verizon Services
>
> > Best Regards,
>
> > Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
> > +1.916.941.5558
> > Ray.DeP...@gmail.com
> > Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
>
> > Imagine what it can do for all levels of government....
>
> > Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds
> > Verizon Communications has reduced operating costs and boosted IT efficiency 400% by restructuring its cloud-computing processes internally and switching to a virtual approach in its data center through an aggressive process of consolidating its hardware and software platforms, the company said at an industry event today. "We were able to reduce our costs to one-third or less of what we were spending," said Fari Ebrahimi, chief information officer for Verizon Services
>
> > Best Regards,
>
> > Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
> > +1.916.941.5558
> > Twitter: @RayDePena
> > LinkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/raydepena
>
> > --
> > ~~~~~
> > Register Today for Cloud Slam 2010 athttp://cloudslam10.com
> > Posting guidelines:http://groups.google.ca/group/cloud-computing/web/frequently-asked-qu...
> > LinkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/raydepena
>
> > --
> > ~~~~~
> > Register Today for Cloud Slam 2010 athttp://cloudslam10.com
> > Follow us on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/cloudcomp_groupor @cloudcomp_group
> > Post Job/Resume athttp://cloudjobs.net
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> >http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H07SEC,http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H0IW1Uor get instant access to downloadable versions athttp://cloudslam09.com/content/registration-5.html
>
> > ~~~~~
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>
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Jan
>
> > --
> > ~~~~~
> > Register Today for Cloud Slam 2010 athttp://cloudslam10.com
> > Posting guidelines:http://groups.google.ca/group/cloud-computing/web/frequently-asked-qu...
> > ~~~~~
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>
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Jan
>
> > --
> > ~~~~~
> > Register Today for Cloud Slam 2010 athttp://cloudslam10.com
> > Follow us on Twitterhttp://twitter.com/cloudcomp_groupor @cloudcomp_group
> > Post Job/Resume athttp://cloudjobs.net
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Jim Starkey
Dec 10, 2009, 2:02:07 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Excuse me, but this is non-sense. The original article didn't say they
improve "efficiency" by 400% but "performance". Logically, it isn't
impossible to improve efficiency by more than 100%, and even that
requires that resource utilization goes to zero, which is highly
unlikely. And performance without the metric is itself meaningless.
Did it go faster? Did it require less manpower to implement or
administer? Who knows?
Isn't this a microcosm of Cloud Hype -- a misreporting of a press
release, meaningless at face value, offered as evidence of the virtues
of cloud computing?
Really, ladies and gentlemen. Can we be a little more critical in our
thinking?
Ray DePena wrote:
> Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased
> efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
>
> Imagine what it can do for all levels of government....
>
> Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds
> <http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=185578&>
> --
> ~~~~~
Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
978 526-1376
improve "efficiency" by 400% but "performance". Logically, it isn't
impossible to improve efficiency by more than 100%, and even that
requires that resource utilization goes to zero, which is highly
unlikely. And performance without the metric is itself meaningless.
Did it go faster? Did it require less manpower to implement or
administer? Who knows?
Isn't this a microcosm of Cloud Hype -- a misreporting of a press
release, meaningless at face value, offered as evidence of the virtues
of cloud computing?
Really, ladies and gentlemen. Can we be a little more critical in our
thinking?
Ray DePena wrote:
> Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased
> efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
>
> Imagine what it can do for all levels of government....
>
> Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds
> Verizon Communications has reduced operating costs and boosted IT
> efficiency 400% by restructuring its cloud-computing processes
> internally and switching to a virtual approach in its data center
> through an aggressive process of consolidating its hardware and
> software platforms, the company said at an industry event today. "We
> were able to reduce our costs to one-third or less of what we were
> spending," said Fari Ebrahimi, chief information officer for Verizon
> Services
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
> +1.916.941.5558
> Ray.D...@gmail.com <mailto:Ray.D...@gmail.com>
> efficiency 400% by restructuring its cloud-computing processes
> internally and switching to a virtual approach in its data center
> through an aggressive process of consolidating its hardware and
> software platforms, the company said at an industry event today. "We
> were able to reduce our costs to one-third or less of what we were
> spending," said Fari Ebrahimi, chief information officer for Verizon
> Services
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
> +1.916.941.5558
> --
> ~~~~~
> Register Today for Cloud Slam 2010 at http://cloudslam10.com
> Posting guidelines:
> http://groups.google.ca/group/cloud-computing/web/frequently-asked-questions
> Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/cloudcomp_group or
> @cloudcomp_group
> Post Job/Resume at http://cloudjobs.net
> Posting guidelines:
> http://groups.google.ca/group/cloud-computing/web/frequently-asked-questions
> Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/cloudcomp_group or
> @cloudcomp_group
> Buy 88 conference sessions and panels on cloud computing on DVD at
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H07SEC,
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H0IW1U or get instant access to
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H07SEC,
> downloadable versions at
> http://cloudslam09.com/content/registration-5.html
>
> ~~~~~
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> To post to this group, send email to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
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> cloud-computi...@googlegroups.com
--
Jim Starkey
> http://cloudslam09.com/content/registration-5.html
>
> ~~~~~
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> cloud-computi...@googlegroups.com
--
Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
978 526-1376
Jim Starkey
Dec 10, 2009, 2:40:44 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Rao Dronamraju wrote:
>
> BTW, on that note, have you all heard about AT&T not being able to
> support iPhone traffic.
>
> If they cannot support iPhones, can they support cloud traffic?...or
> is iPhone bandwidth needs are much higher than cloud clients� needs
>
> BTW, on that note, have you all heard about AT&T not being able to
> support iPhone traffic.
>
> If they cannot support iPhones, can they support cloud traffic?...or
> considering that millions use iPhone.
>
Uh, Rao, the problem is wireless bandwidth, not backbone bandwidth. The
>
problem is that the 100,000 iPhone apps eat up a great deal more
bandwidth that an ordinary cellphone user. Increasing the capacity of
the backbone is easy and cheap -- more colors on existing fiber or light
up more dark fiber. Increasing the wireless bandwidth means either more
frequencies (ain't a gonna happen) or more cell towers. Oh, boy, more
pretty cell towers. I can't wait.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Ray
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2009 7:41 PM
> *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400%
> improvement - shrinking data centers
>
> 400% is pretty good and it sure will look good on those Verizon Cloud
> brochures. :)
>
>
> On Dec 9, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Ray DePena <ray.d...@gmail.com
>
> 400% is pretty good and it sure will look good on those Verizon Cloud
> brochures. :)
>
>
> On Dec 9, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Ray DePena <ray.d...@gmail.com
> <mailto:ray.d...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased
>> efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
>>
>> Imagine what it can do for all levels of government....
>>
>> Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds
>> <http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=185578&>
>
>> Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased
>> efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
>>
>> Imagine what it can do for all levels of government....
>>
>> Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds
>> Verizon Communications has reduced operating costs and boosted IT
>> efficiency 400% by restructuring its cloud-computing processes
>> internally and switching to a virtual approach in its data center
>> through an aggressive process of consolidating its hardware and
>> software platforms, the company said at an industry event today. "We
>> were able to reduce our costs to one-third or less of what we were
>> spending," said Fari Ebrahimi, chief information officer for Verizon
>> Services
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
>> +1.916.941.5558
>> Ray.D...@gmail.com <mailto:Ray.D...@gmail.com>
>> efficiency 400% by restructuring its cloud-computing processes
>> internally and switching to a virtual approach in its data center
>> through an aggressive process of consolidating its hardware and
>> software platforms, the company said at an industry event today. "We
>> were able to reduce our costs to one-third or less of what we were
>> spending," said Fari Ebrahimi, chief information officer for Verizon
>> Services
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
>> +1.916.941.5558
>> Twitter: @RayDePena
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/raydepena
>>
>> --
>> ~~~~~
>> Register Today for Cloud Slam 2010 at http://cloudslam10.com
>> Posting guidelines:
>> http://groups.google.ca/group/cloud-computing/web/frequently-asked-questions
>> Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/cloudcomp_group or
>> @cloudcomp_group
>> Post Job/Resume at http://cloudjobs.net
>> Buy 88 conference sessions and panels on cloud computing on DVD at
>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H07SEC,
>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H0IW1U or get instant access to
>> downloadable versions at
>> http://cloudslam09.com/content/registration-5.html
>>
>> ~~~~~
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Cloud Computing" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com>
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/raydepena
>>
>> --
>> ~~~~~
>> Register Today for Cloud Slam 2010 at http://cloudslam10.com
>> Posting guidelines:
>> http://groups.google.ca/group/cloud-computing/web/frequently-asked-questions
>> Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/cloudcomp_group or
>> @cloudcomp_group
>> Post Job/Resume at http://cloudjobs.net
>> Buy 88 conference sessions and panels on cloud computing on DVD at
>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H07SEC,
>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002H0IW1U or get instant access to
>> downloadable versions at
>> http://cloudslam09.com/content/registration-5.html
>>
>> ~~~~~
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Cloud Computing" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:cloud-computi...@googlegroups.com>
Rao Dronamraju
Dec 10, 2009, 2:56:51 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Jim,
You are right. iPhone traffic is primarily wirless and cloud traffic at this
time is primarily backbone. But with Verizon and AT&T offering their own
cellular cards to connect especially for the mobile workforce, sales,
marketing and service folks, they would be fielding some of the cloud
traffic over cellular/wirless. But you are right, this traffic is not much
at this time, but think of future BI/ERP/CRM applications being used from
clouds over such connectivity.
-----Original Message-----
From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Starkey
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 1:41 PM
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400%
improvement - shrinking data centers
Rao Dronamraju wrote:
>
> BTW, on that note, have you all heard about AT&T not being able to
> support iPhone traffic.
>
> If they cannot support iPhones, can they support cloud traffic?...or
> is iPhone bandwidth needs are much higher than cloud clients' needs
improvement - shrinking data centers
Rao Dronamraju wrote:
>
> BTW, on that note, have you all heard about AT&T not being able to
> support iPhone traffic.
>
> If they cannot support iPhones, can they support cloud traffic?...or
Jan Klincewicz
Dec 10, 2009, 2:55:29 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Some of them look like evergreen trees .....
<<Oh, boy, more pretty cell towers. I can't wait.>>
--
Cheers,
Jan
<<Oh, boy, more pretty cell towers. I can't wait.>>
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Jim Starkey <jsta...@nimbusdb.com> wrote:
Rao Dronamraju wrote:
>
> BTW, on that note, have you all heard about AT&T not being able to
> support iPhone traffic.
>
> If they cannot support iPhones, can they support cloud traffic?...or
> is iPhone bandwidth needs are much higher than cloud clients’ needs
--
Cheers,
Jan
Jim Starkey
Dec 10, 2009, 3:25:58 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Jan Klincewicz wrote:
> Some of them look like evergreen trees .....
Those are called "mono-pines" in the biz. They look like evergreens
> Some of them look like evergreen trees .....
except they're cylindrical and don't sway in the wind. Less ugly, yes,
but still ugly.
There's a variation for warmer climes called "mono-palms".
But the FAA won't let them get high enough to interfere with clouds --
or airplanes.
>
> <<Oh, boy, more pretty cell towers. I can't wait.>>
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Jim Starkey <jsta...@nimbusdb.com
> <mailto:jsta...@nimbusdb.com>> wrote:
>
> Rao Dronamraju wrote:
> >
> > BTW, on that note, have you all heard about AT&T not being able to
> > support iPhone traffic.
> >
> > If they cannot support iPhones, can they support cloud traffic?...or
> > considering that millions use iPhone.
> >
> Uh, Rao, the problem is wireless bandwidth, not backbone
> bandwidth. The
> problem is that the 100,000 iPhone apps eat up a great deal more
> bandwidth that an ordinary cellphone user. Increasing the capacity of
> the backbone is easy and cheap -- more colors on existing fiber or
> light
> up more dark fiber. Increasing the wireless bandwidth means either
> more
> frequencies (ain't a gonna happen) or more cell towers. Oh, boy, more
> pretty cell towers. I can't wait.
>
>
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com>
> > [mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> >
> Uh, Rao, the problem is wireless bandwidth, not backbone
> bandwidth. The
> problem is that the 100,000 iPhone apps eat up a great deal more
> bandwidth that an ordinary cellphone user. Increasing the capacity of
> the backbone is easy and cheap -- more colors on existing fiber or
> light
> up more dark fiber. Increasing the wireless bandwidth means either
> more
> frequencies (ain't a gonna happen) or more cell towers. Oh, boy, more
> pretty cell towers. I can't wait.
>
>
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > *From:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com>
> <mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com>] *On Behalf Of *Ray
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2009 7:41 PM
> > *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com>
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2009 7:41 PM
> > *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds -
> 400%
> > improvement - shrinking data centers
> >
> > 400% is pretty good and it sure will look good on those Verizon
> Cloud
> > brochures. :)
> >
> >
> > On Dec 9, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Ray DePena <ray.d...@gmail.com
> <mailto:ray.d...@gmail.com>
> 400%
> > improvement - shrinking data centers
> >
> > 400% is pretty good and it sure will look good on those Verizon
> Cloud
> > brochures. :)
> >
> >
> > On Dec 9, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Ray DePena <ray.d...@gmail.com
> <mailto:ray.d...@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:ray.d...@gmail.com <mailto:ray.d...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >> Another example of the potential to extract savings through
> increased
> >> efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
> >>
> >> Imagine what it can do for all levels of government....
> >>
> >> Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds
> >> <http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=185578&
> <http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=185578&>>
> >> Verizon Communications has reduced operating costs and boosted IT
> >> efficiency 400% by restructuring its cloud-computing processes
> >> internally and switching to a virtual approach in its data center
> >> through an aggressive process of consolidating its hardware and
> >> software platforms, the company said at an industry event
> today. "We
> >> were able to reduce our costs to one-third or less of what we were
> >> spending," said Fari Ebrahimi, chief information officer for
> Verizon
> >> Services
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >> Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
> >> +1.916.941.5558
> >> Ray.D...@gmail.com <mailto:Ray.D...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:Ray.D...@gmail.com <mailto:Ray.D...@gmail.com>>
> >
> >> Another example of the potential to extract savings through
> increased
> >> efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
> >>
> >> Imagine what it can do for all levels of government....
> >>
> >> Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds
> >> <http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=185578&
> <http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=185578&>>
> >> Verizon Communications has reduced operating costs and boosted IT
> >> efficiency 400% by restructuring its cloud-computing processes
> >> internally and switching to a virtual approach in its data center
> >> through an aggressive process of consolidating its hardware and
> >> software platforms, the company said at an industry event
> today. "We
> >> were able to reduce our costs to one-third or less of what we were
> >> spending," said Fari Ebrahimi, chief information officer for
> Verizon
> >> Services
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >> Ray DePena, MBA, PMP
> >> +1.916.941.5558
> >> Ray.D...@gmail.com <mailto:Ray.D...@gmail.com>
> >> Twitter: @RayDePena
> >> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/raydepena
> >>
> >> --
> >> ~~~~~
> >> Register Today for Cloud Slam 2010 at http://cloudslam10.com
> >> Posting guidelines:
> >>
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> Jim Starkey
> Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
> 978 526-1376
>
> --
> ~~~~~
> Register Today for Cloud Slam 2010 at http://cloudslam10.com
> Posting guidelines:
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> Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/cloudcomp_group or
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> 978 526-1376
>
> --
> ~~~~~
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> Jan
Robert Hanckel
Dec 10, 2009, 4:20:27 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
They are good for hanging laundry.
Stephen Fleece
Dec 10, 2009, 4:26:39 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
It's nice to see the cloud IT and telecom heads talking here. The synergies and interdependencies between the computing and network clouds needs further dialog. For example, moving petabytes of cloud storage at off hours via the net is too expensive. Hybrid cloud products need performance SLAs for traffic and response times to the customer premise (data center, office, etc.). These relationships exist at both at business and technical levels.
Stephen
[Sent using my mobile device]
Rao Dronamraju
Dec 10, 2009, 5:00:24 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Well said. I think this is one area that is normally not discussed much and would be very useful to understand the BW and latency issues that Telecom folks are working on to support CC in general and heavy weight applications in particular. Also the public cloud facilities that these folks are building and business/pricing models.
“[Sent using my mobile device]”….It appears that you sent your message by iPhone over AT&T…I haven’t received it yetJ
From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Fleece
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009
3:27 PM
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ]
Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400% improvement - shrinking data centers
It's nice to see the cloud IT and telecom heads talking here. The synergies and interdependencies between the computing and network clouds needs further dialog. For example, moving petabytes of cloud storage at off hours via the net is too expensive. Hybrid cloud products need performance SLAs for traffic and response times to the customer premise (data center, office, etc.). These relationships exist at both at business and technical levels.
Stephen
[Sent using my mobile device]
Ray DePena
Dec 10, 2009, 6:37:54 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
@Jim,
I believe the "metric" they used to describe, "efficiency" is cost - or at least part of the article described it that way.
While I agree that it's limited in its details of what was actually achieved and how, I'm of the opinion that if a change took place from the existing approach and the new approach achieved cost savings, improved performance, efficiency gains or any other advantage, from a larger picture perspective the net-net is that it's a "better" approach.
I tend to equate "hype" with vaporware. It didn't sound like that was the case here.
RD
I believe the "metric" they used to describe, "efficiency" is cost - or at least part of the article described it that way.
While I agree that it's limited in its details of what was actually achieved and how, I'm of the opinion that if a change took place from the existing approach and the new approach achieved cost savings, improved performance, efficiency gains or any other advantage, from a larger picture perspective the net-net is that it's a "better" approach.
I tend to equate "hype" with vaporware. It didn't sound like that was the case here.
RD
Ray Nugent
Dec 10, 2009, 6:55:00 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
This is flat out anti-competitive. If Verizon sets the expectation that new Cloud installations should achieve a 400% improvement - in anything - then it makes the rest of us have to climb that mountain. We are pretty comfortable with a 30% reduction in overall costs and 70% reduction in sever deployments times in our pitches. Anyone who claims or supports a claim like this is just doing the real practitioners a disservice. I agree with Jim, it is indeed the definition of Cloud Hype. Arguing that your definition of hype is different than generally accepted is not an excuse...
Ray (the original one)
Ray (the original one)
From: Ray DePena <ray.d...@gmail.com>
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 10, 2009 3:37:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400% improvement - shrinking data centers
Jan Klincewicz
Dec 10, 2009, 7:24:49 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
I think Verizon IS a real practitioner, and probably is among the few companies today with the funds to provide a truly scalable "Public Cloud." However, publishing ANY kind of statistical metric amounts to pure hype in the lack of a standard for measurement. "Improvement" of 400% is pretty meaningless,
Cheers,
Jan
Jan
Ray DePena
Dec 10, 2009, 8:14:36 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
@Ray,
Are you suggesting that if one walks into a highly inefficient environment and achieves much better actual results than the metrics you've mentioned, that it's "hype"? Forgive me, but that seems to me to be a preposterous position to hold.
It's only "hype" if those gains are not true / real.
If tomorrow an automobile was available that got 500 miles to the gallon of real world driving and it was proven to be true that's a huge improvement, not hype. Now, if that's the press release and in fact it "just" achieves 50 miles, then yes, that would be hype.
Are you suggesting that if one walks into a highly inefficient environment and achieves much better actual results than the metrics you've mentioned, that it's "hype"? Forgive me, but that seems to me to be a preposterous position to hold.
It's only "hype" if those gains are not true / real.
If tomorrow an automobile was available that got 500 miles to the gallon of real world driving and it was proven to be true that's a huge improvement, not hype. Now, if that's the press release and in fact it "just" achieves 50 miles, then yes, that would be hype.
Rao Dronamraju
Dec 10, 2009, 8:21:39 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
I think if you read the artcile again, what they are saying is
1) They have improved performance by 400% and reduced costs to 1/3.
2) They also talk about through virtualization, Consolidation and
Outsourcing (especially their call center operations).
So it appears that Verizon seems to have achieved this through
server/datacenter consolidation and outsourcing of their call center group.
They also mention that their costs are reduced TO (not BY) 1/3.
So the perfomence improvement they are talking about is a cumulative
performance (not sure whether it is interms of dollars or customers
supported with far fewer systems and support personnel & reduced call center
volume)of many things they seem to have implemented.
So on second reading I will give the benefit of doubt to Verizon and they
seem to have done a great job.
-----Original Message-----
From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Starkey
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 1:02 PM
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400%
improvement - shrinking data centers
improvement - shrinking data centers
Ray DePena
Dec 10, 2009, 9:26:22 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
@Rao,
Agreed. Though we (myself included) tend to sometimes forget (or take for granted) the varying definitions of what constitutes Cloud computing and the numerous metrics that many companies use.
It wouldn't surprise me that those organizations that use a very narrow definition of what constitutes "Cloud" and limit the improvement measurements to that scope will likely have more "limited" results than those that use a very broad definition and measure from existing actuals (which may be highly inefficient) to end result (inclusive of tactics many of us may not consider "Cloud).
For example, many of us may not include offshoring as "Cloud", but if in the process of taking an environment which would have been too costly to offshore, but now that it has been consolidated and virtualized can easily be managed by offshore resources, I'm certain those savings are being included and attributed to cloud computing.
And I'm sure there are likely to be many varying opinions as to whether those savings should be included.
As we know, at least from this example (which I'm certain is not unique among corporate executives), some do count those savings as cloud.
-RD
Agreed. Though we (myself included) tend to sometimes forget (or take for granted) the varying definitions of what constitutes Cloud computing and the numerous metrics that many companies use.
It wouldn't surprise me that those organizations that use a very narrow definition of what constitutes "Cloud" and limit the improvement measurements to that scope will likely have more "limited" results than those that use a very broad definition and measure from existing actuals (which may be highly inefficient) to end result (inclusive of tactics many of us may not consider "Cloud).
For example, many of us may not include offshoring as "Cloud", but if in the process of taking an environment which would have been too costly to offshore, but now that it has been consolidated and virtualized can easily be managed by offshore resources, I'm certain those savings are being included and attributed to cloud computing.
And I'm sure there are likely to be many varying opinions as to whether those savings should be included.
As we know, at least from this example (which I'm certain is not unique among corporate executives), some do count those savings as cloud.
Unisys official says cloud computing can save money by eliminating U.S. jobs
-RD
Ray Nugent
Dec 10, 2009, 9:36:52 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
No Ray, I'm suggesting this is pure BS. They specifically claim - "we saw a 400 percent improvement in performance". What, exactly, is IT performance? How does one measure it? Does this mean their servers run 400% faster? Are their IT guys on roller skates now? What was their IT performance before and after? Can they publish metrics so we can all verify the improvement?
I'm not arguing Cloud Computing can drive significant gains in cost management and customer satisfaction (not to mention power, tax, real estate and focus benefits). However when someone who is just about to launch a new cloud service makes wild, unsubstantiated claims about their own prowess, well, color me skeptical...
Ray (the original one)
I'm not arguing Cloud Computing can drive significant gains in cost management and customer satisfaction (not to mention power, tax, real estate and focus benefits). However when someone who is just about to launch a new cloud service makes wild, unsubstantiated claims about their own prowess, well, color me skeptical...
Ray (the original one)
Sent: Thu, December 10, 2009 5:14:36 PM
Ray Nugent
Dec 10, 2009, 9:44:06 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Offshoring is not the Cloud any more than offshoring is the Internet. Offshoring may become enabled by these technologies but they are not one in the same (unless you're a salesman for an Indian offshoring firm).
Ray (the original one)
Ray (the original one)
Sent: Thu, December 10, 2009 6:26:22 PM
Ray DePena
Dec 10, 2009, 10:00:33 PM12/10/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
I didn't say that offshoring is the Cloud. What I said was if the technology enabled the offshoring of an IT environment those savings may well be included in the Verizon claims, just as they were included in the Unisys savings claims, all under the banner of cloud savings.
I understand what you're saying, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion, though if I were the vendor and the use of cloud enabled offshoring, I would include that in total savings figure.
While it's good to be skeptical of such claims, and they don't provide much detail, just looking at their consolidation of multiple hardware and software vendors alone that's a large improvement. Of course, many do not include that under the banner of cloud computing.
"including hardware and software from multiple vendors. To be more efficient, Verizon consolidated hardware, operating systems, databases, middleware, and applications and took a virtual approach to enterprise resource planning."
I simply view it as a prudent step on the path to an efficient cloud computing environment.
-RD
I understand what you're saying, and you're certainly entitled to your opinion, though if I were the vendor and the use of cloud enabled offshoring, I would include that in total savings figure.
While it's good to be skeptical of such claims, and they don't provide much detail, just looking at their consolidation of multiple hardware and software vendors alone that's a large improvement. Of course, many do not include that under the banner of cloud computing.
"including hardware and software from multiple vendors. To be more efficient, Verizon consolidated hardware, operating systems, databases, middleware, and applications and took a virtual approach to enterprise resource planning."
I simply view it as a prudent step on the path to an efficient cloud computing environment.
-RD
Ray Nugent
Dec 11, 2009, 12:08:27 AM12/11/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
The point is this is all mom and apple pie and not a shred of fact. If you want to believe their claims out of hand you're certainly entitled to. I would prefer some more detail, otherwise it's just a press release. This is, after all, the Phone Company...
Ray
Ray
Sent: Thu, December 10, 2009 7:00:33 PM
Ray Nugent
Dec 11, 2009, 12:15:22 AM12/11/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
I believe Verizon is a practitioner and could be a player. They are certainly ahead of most Telcos at this point. Never the less this claim is designed to promote their upcoming business. My concern is the non-practitioners here promoting this as fact. As Jim opined, this is the way Cloud Hype starts and then discredits the real benefits of the technology.
Ray
Ray
From: Jan Klincewicz <jan.kli...@gmail.com>
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 10, 2009 4:24:49 PM
Ray DePena
Dec 11, 2009, 5:24:52 PM12/11/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
@Ray,
Having worked with numerous business partners in marketing roles, I simply do not recall the overwhelming majority of businesses ever detailing any meaningful "facts" in the public press.
Case studies may point out what was achieved, but rarely have I seen any of the "how" details. Most businesses consider the details, facts, and how to be part of their "secret sauce" / competitive advantage.
After 100 years, I'm still waiting for Coca-Cola to divulge its formula, but I'm not expecting it anytime soon.
Perhaps it's nothing more than our different perceptions as to what can be expected to be communicated in the marketplace.
Now, if I was a buyer of any product or service, you can bet that I'd be asking about the how, facts, details, etc. before I'd buy into a service offering proclaiming 400% performance improvement.
-RD
Having worked with numerous business partners in marketing roles, I simply do not recall the overwhelming majority of businesses ever detailing any meaningful "facts" in the public press.
Case studies may point out what was achieved, but rarely have I seen any of the "how" details. Most businesses consider the details, facts, and how to be part of their "secret sauce" / competitive advantage.
After 100 years, I'm still waiting for Coca-Cola to divulge its formula, but I'm not expecting it anytime soon.
Perhaps it's nothing more than our different perceptions as to what can be expected to be communicated in the marketplace.
Now, if I was a buyer of any product or service, you can bet that I'd be asking about the how, facts, details, etc. before I'd buy into a service offering proclaiming 400% performance improvement.
-RD
Ray Nugent
Dec 11, 2009, 11:09:11 PM12/11/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
That has been my experience as well. Which makes it all the more curious why you held it up as another example of the potential to extract savings through increased efficiencies offered by Cloud computing given you're a marketing professional and are wise the the liberties taken with the press release.
Sent: Fri, December 11, 2009 2:24:52 PM
Ray DePena
Dec 12, 2009, 2:55:19 PM12/12/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Are we suggesting we ignore industry news and developments in this area unless they come with an open kimono? We both know that won't work either.
It's up to the buyer of products/services to do the due diligence.
This is a cloud computing discussion group, no reason why we shouldn't talk about Light Reading's article on Verizon.
-RD
It's up to the buyer of products/services to do the due diligence.
This is a cloud computing discussion group, no reason why we shouldn't talk about Light Reading's article on Verizon.
-RD
Ray Nugent
Dec 12, 2009, 3:43:23 PM12/12/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Thankfully it's still a free country so I would not suggest squelching the conversation at all. I'm simply pointing out that this type of "discussion" is precisely what confuses the buyer of products and services in the cloud market. If you think that's a value add to this group then I disagree with your opinion on that point.
Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 11:55:19
AM
Jan Klincewicz
Dec 12, 2009, 9:33:37 PM12/12/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
If we go back to the original post:
"Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
Imagine what it can do for all levels of government...."
I would construe this is as positive editorial comment on the press release that follows it. I think any reasonable person would interpret the comments above as praise for the accomplishments Verizon claimed despite the fact that they offered no explanation of the metrics used to calculate their savings. I would not expect them to discuss what their baseline may have been, but the original post DID seem to be holding up Verizon as a shining example of cloud "success" without any kind of critical lens.
Nothing WRONG with being a fan, but when your audience is comprised of the most well-educated, experienced, cynical S.O.B.s in the industry, you have to be ready for some blowback.
Cheers,
Jan
"Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
Imagine what it can do for all levels of government...."
Nothing WRONG with being a fan, but when your audience is comprised of the most well-educated, experienced, cynical S.O.B.s in the industry, you have to be ready for some blowback.
Jan
Ray DePena
Dec 12, 2009, 11:56:45 PM12/12/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
@Ray, @Jan,
Unless someone here has evidence to disprove the Light Reading article, the overall concept stands - Cloud computing offers the potential for tremendous gains in efficiencies - was it truly 400%? Caveat Emptor.
Perhaps Ray works with highly efficient clients and is only comfortable with 30%. Perhaps Verizon's environment was woefully inefficient. Perhaps Cloud computing is being defined differently.
I put it forth as another example. It's not the only one where claims of efficiency gains have been made regardless of whether it's 20%, 100%, or some other figure. The efficiency gains made are relative to the environment where CC is being adopted and the results are likely to vary widely.
-RD
Unless someone here has evidence to disprove the Light Reading article, the overall concept stands - Cloud computing offers the potential for tremendous gains in efficiencies - was it truly 400%? Caveat Emptor.
Perhaps Ray works with highly efficient clients and is only comfortable with 30%. Perhaps Verizon's environment was woefully inefficient. Perhaps Cloud computing is being defined differently.
I put it forth as another example. It's not the only one where claims of efficiency gains have been made regardless of whether it's 20%, 100%, or some other figure. The efficiency gains made are relative to the environment where CC is being adopted and the results are likely to vary widely.
-RD
Ray Nugent
Dec 13, 2009, 12:17:41 AM12/13/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
I agree. Perhaps. Perhaps you should verify it before celebrating it.
Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 8:56:45 PM
Ray DePena
Dec 13, 2009, 12:28:15 AM12/13/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
I leave that to those that are:
1. The buyers of the services
2. The detractors and skeptics
-RD
1. The buyers of the services
2. The detractors and skeptics
-RD
Peglar, Robert
Dec 13, 2009, 7:07:35 AM12/13/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Indeed, caveat emptor (to Ray’s point 1 below)
The only objection I had, reading the article, was the implication that cloud was the _only_ way to achieve such improvements in efficiency. Truth be told, it is not the only way.
Many enterprises could become much more efficient in their own datacenters, but for a myriad of reasons both cogent and otherwise, choose not to and therefore use cloud services.
A large portion of the current inefficiency lies in the base method of procurement. Too many CIOs use the W&D method as opposed to a coherent understanding of their business and what infrastructure is really required to service the business.
Rob
From: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cloud-c...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray DePena
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:28 PM
To: cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400% improvement - shrinking data centers
I leave that to those that are:
Robert Peglar
Vice President, Technology, Storage Systems Group
Xiotech Corporation
Robert...@xiotech.com
952 983 2287 (Office)
314 308 6983 (Mobile)
636 532 0828 (Fax)
www.xiotech.com : Toll-Free 866 472 6764
Jan Klincewicz
Dec 13, 2009, 8:55:31 AM12/13/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
As both a detractor and skeptic, I may have mentioned this, but I worked for Bell Atlantic's Corporate Headquarters for about 14 years before they became Verizon. Many of the folks with whom I worked remained in IT and more than likely will collect a paycheck until they are forced to retire. I can say from experience that the retirement of any single IT manager I know could improve Verizon's operation efficiency a fair amount, particularly if they were not replaced with a similar employee. I'm not sure this is measurable. I do recall the use of metrics year after year to justify our own existence when we were asked to study whether outsourcing would be more effective that us keeping our jobs, Imagine what we concluded (with charts to back it up !!)
@Ray, With regards to your suggestion that those who disagree with your should be burdened with the necessity to provide some form of solid evidence to REFUTE your original statement, please refer to the following definition of "Argument form Ignorance."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
Ray DePena
Dec 13, 2009, 12:57:07 PM12/13/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
@Jan,
I'm familiar with the argument, but both yourself and Ray (the original) seem to think I'm Verizon or work for Light Reading. I'm not the one making the claim, just the messenger.
If a vendor says, "I can do X" - that's between the vendor and the client. If another vendor such as Ray comes along, it's up to the 2nd vendor to prove the falsehood of vendor A's argument to the client in order to compete.
All else being equal, a client will usually choose 400% improvement over 30%.
Regardless of the starting point for Verizon, and how inefficient it was, I doubt government is more efficient, so I still hold my view - imagine the efficiency gains government stands to make.
-RD
I'm familiar with the argument, but both yourself and Ray (the original) seem to think I'm Verizon or work for Light Reading. I'm not the one making the claim, just the messenger.
If a vendor says, "I can do X" - that's between the vendor and the client. If another vendor such as Ray comes along, it's up to the 2nd vendor to prove the falsehood of vendor A's argument to the client in order to compete.
All else being equal, a client will usually choose 400% improvement over 30%.
Regardless of the starting point for Verizon, and how inefficient it was, I doubt government is more efficient, so I still hold my view - imagine the efficiency gains government stands to make.
-RD
Ray DePena
Dec 13, 2009, 12:59:53 PM12/13/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
That's a good point Rob. Though I think they mentioned consolidation in the process. If it's true that the average server utilization is 15%, consolidation alone provides a big improvement.
-RD
-RD
Ray DePena
Dec 13, 2009, 1:15:06 PM12/13/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
By the way, from the wikipedia link you provided. Verizon, not I, made the 400% claim, Light Reading published it, and I brought it up here as an example of the potential of cloud computing.
I never stated that their claim is true. Caveat Emptor.
However, some have written it off as false without evidence.
I have no evidence either way as to the veracity of Verizon's claims.
My point was the comparative efficiencies that government potentially stands to make. Then again, I have no actual evidence that government is less efficient than the private sector (though I have my doubts).
-RD
"The argument from personal incredulity, also known as argument from personal belief or argument from personal conviction, refers to an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed to be false, or alternatively that another preferred but unproven premise is true instead."
I never stated that their claim is true. Caveat Emptor.
However, some have written it off as false without evidence.
I have no evidence either way as to the veracity of Verizon's claims.
My point was the comparative efficiencies that government potentially stands to make. Then again, I have no actual evidence that government is less efficient than the private sector (though I have my doubts).
-RD
"The argument from personal incredulity, also known as argument from personal belief or argument from personal conviction, refers to an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed to be false, or alternatively that another preferred but unproven premise is true instead."
On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Jan Klincewicz <jan.kli...@gmail.com> wrote:
Jan Klincewicz
Dec 13, 2009, 1:14:54 PM12/13/09
to cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'm afraid I have run clean out of logical arguments (which I thought you might fin at least worthy of entertaining.) I am relatively certain that you work for neither concern, but I'm afraid expressing editiorial opinion is beyond the scope of what a messenger does.
Ray
Dec 13, 2009, 1:55:06 PM12/13/09
to Cloud Computing
If by editorial opinion you mean,
"Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased
efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
Imagine what it can do for all levels of government.... "
I do not state that one will attain 400% improvement, but rather,
point it out as an example -of the potential to extract savings
through increased efficiencies- via the Cloud, and it's hardly much of
an opinion on the article.
Here's another example from the net on cloud based improvement, "And
Hill AFB customers have been pleased, notes Michele Neri, deputy
director and CTO at the base. "They have seen a 300 to 400 percent
improvement...."
http://www.emc.com/leadership/business-view/cloudy-but-clear-sailing-ahead.htm
-RD
On Dec 13, 10:14 am, Jan Klincewicz <jan.klincew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'm afraid I have run clean
> out of logical arguments (which I thought you might fin at least worthy of
> entertaining.) I am relatively certain that you work for neither concern,
> but I'm afraid expressing editiorial opinion is beyond the scope of what a
> messenger does.
>
> >>>> *From:* Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com>
> >>>> *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> >>>> *Sent:* Sat, December 12, 2009 8:56:45 PM
>
> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400%
> >>>>>> *From:* Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> >>>>>> *Sent:* Sat, December 12, 2009 11:55:19 AM
>
> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400%
> >>>>>>> *From:* Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> >>>>>>> *Sent:* Fri, December 11, 2009 2:24:52 PM
>
> >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds -
> >>>>>>>> *From:* Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thu, December 10, 2009 7:00:33 PM
>
> >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds -
>
> read more »
"Another example of the potential to extract savings through increased
efficiencies offered by Cloud computing.
Imagine what it can do for all levels of government.... "
point it out as an example -of the potential to extract savings
through increased efficiencies- via the Cloud, and it's hardly much of
an opinion on the article.
Here's another example from the net on cloud based improvement, "And
Hill AFB customers have been pleased, notes Michele Neri, deputy
director and CTO at the base. "They have seen a 300 to 400 percent
improvement...."
http://www.emc.com/leadership/business-view/cloudy-but-clear-sailing-ahead.htm
-RD
On Dec 13, 10:14 am, Jan Klincewicz <jan.klincew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I'm afraid I have run clean
> out of logical arguments (which I thought you might fin at least worthy of
> entertaining.) I am relatively certain that you work for neither concern,
> but I'm afraid expressing editiorial opinion is beyond the scope of what a
> messenger does.
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > @Jan,
>
> > I'm familiar with the argument, but both yourself and Ray (the original)
> > seem to think I'm Verizon or work for Light Reading. I'm not the one making
> > the claim, just the messenger.
>
> > If a vendor says, "I can do X" - that's between the vendor and the client.
> > If another vendor such as Ray comes along, it's up to the 2nd vendor to
> > prove the falsehood of vendor A's argument to the client in order to
> > compete.
>
> > All else being equal, a client will usually choose 400% improvement over
> > 30%.
>
> > Regardless of the starting point for Verizon, and how inefficient it was, I
> > doubt government is more efficient, so I still hold my view - imagine the
> > efficiency gains government stands to make.
>
> > -RD
>
> > @Jan,
>
> > I'm familiar with the argument, but both yourself and Ray (the original)
> > seem to think I'm Verizon or work for Light Reading. I'm not the one making
> > the claim, just the messenger.
>
> > If a vendor says, "I can do X" - that's between the vendor and the client.
> > If another vendor such as Ray comes along, it's up to the 2nd vendor to
> > prove the falsehood of vendor A's argument to the client in order to
> > compete.
>
> > All else being equal, a client will usually choose 400% improvement over
> > 30%.
>
> > Regardless of the starting point for Verizon, and how inefficient it was, I
> > doubt government is more efficient, so I still hold my view - imagine the
> > efficiency gains government stands to make.
>
> > -RD
>
> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Jan Klincewicz <jan.klincew...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> As both a detractor and skeptic, I may have mentioned this, but I worked
> >> for Bell Atlantic's Corporate Headquarters for about 14 years before they
> >> became Verizon. Many of the folks with whom I worked remained in IT and
> >> more than likely will collect a paycheck until they are forced to retire. I
> >> can say from experience that the retirement of any single IT manager I know
> >> could improve Verizon's operation efficiency a fair amount, particularly if
> >> they were not replaced with a similar employee. I'm not sure this is
> >> measurable. I do recall the use of metrics year after year to justify our
> >> own existence when we were asked to study whether outsourcing would be more
> >> effective that us keeping our jobs, Imagine what we concluded (with charts
> >> to back it up !!)
>
> >> @Ray, With regards to your suggestion that those who disagree with your
> >> should be burdened with the necessity to provide some form of solid evidence
> >> to REFUTE your original statement, please refer to the following definition
> >> of "Argument form Ignorance."
>
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
>
>
> >> As both a detractor and skeptic, I may have mentioned this, but I worked
> >> for Bell Atlantic's Corporate Headquarters for about 14 years before they
> >> became Verizon. Many of the folks with whom I worked remained in IT and
> >> more than likely will collect a paycheck until they are forced to retire. I
> >> can say from experience that the retirement of any single IT manager I know
> >> could improve Verizon's operation efficiency a fair amount, particularly if
> >> they were not replaced with a similar employee. I'm not sure this is
> >> measurable. I do recall the use of metrics year after year to justify our
> >> own existence when we were asked to study whether outsourcing would be more
> >> effective that us keeping our jobs, Imagine what we concluded (with charts
> >> to back it up !!)
>
> >> @Ray, With regards to your suggestion that those who disagree with your
> >> should be burdened with the necessity to provide some form of solid evidence
> >> to REFUTE your original statement, please refer to the following definition
> >> of "Argument form Ignorance."
>
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
>
> >> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 12:28 AM, Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> I leave that to those that are:
>
> >>> 1. The buyers of the services
> >>> 2. The detractors and skeptics
>
> >>> -RD
>
>
> >>> I leave that to those that are:
>
> >>> 1. The buyers of the services
> >>> 2. The detractors and skeptics
>
> >>> -RD
>
> >>> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Ray Nugent <rnug...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> I agree. Perhaps. Perhaps you should verify it before celebrating it.
>
> >>>> ------------------------------
>
> >>>> I agree. Perhaps. Perhaps you should verify it before celebrating it.
>
> >>>> *From:* Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com>
> >>>> *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> >>>> *Sent:* Sat, December 12, 2009 8:56:45 PM
>
> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400%
> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Ray Nugent <rnug...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Thankfully it's still a free country so I would not suggest squelching
> >>>>>> the conversation at all. I'm simply pointing out that this type of
> >>>>>> "discussion" is precisely what confuses the buyer of products and services
> >>>>>> in the cloud market. If you think that's a value add to this group then I
> >>>>>> disagree with your opinion on that point.
>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
>
> >>>>>> Thankfully it's still a free country so I would not suggest squelching
> >>>>>> the conversation at all. I'm simply pointing out that this type of
> >>>>>> "discussion" is precisely what confuses the buyer of products and services
> >>>>>> in the cloud market. If you think that's a value add to this group then I
> >>>>>> disagree with your opinion on that point.
>
> >>>>>> *From:* Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> >>>>>> *Sent:* Sat, December 12, 2009 11:55:19 AM
>
> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds - 400%
> >>>>>> improvement - shrinking data centers
>
> >>>>>> Are we suggesting we ignore industry news and developments in this
> >>>>>> area unless they come with an open kimono? We both know that won't work
> >>>>>> either.
>
> >>>>>> It's up to the buyer of products/services to do the due diligence.
>
> >>>>>> This is a cloud computing discussion group, no reason why we shouldn't
> >>>>>> talk about Light Reading's article on Verizon.
>
> >>>>>> -RD
>
>
> >>>>>> Are we suggesting we ignore industry news and developments in this
> >>>>>> area unless they come with an open kimono? We both know that won't work
> >>>>>> either.
>
> >>>>>> It's up to the buyer of products/services to do the due diligence.
>
> >>>>>> This is a cloud computing discussion group, no reason why we shouldn't
> >>>>>> talk about Light Reading's article on Verizon.
>
> >>>>>> -RD
>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 8:09 PM, Ray Nugent <rnug...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> That has been my experience as well. Which makes it all the more
> >>>>>>> curious why you held it up as another example of the potential to extract
> >>>>>>> savings through increased efficiencies offered by Cloud computing given
> >>>>>>> you're a marketing professional and are wise the the liberties taken with
> >>>>>>> the press release.
>
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------
>
> >>>>>>> That has been my experience as well. Which makes it all the more
> >>>>>>> curious why you held it up as another example of the potential to extract
> >>>>>>> savings through increased efficiencies offered by Cloud computing given
> >>>>>>> you're a marketing professional and are wise the the liberties taken with
> >>>>>>> the press release.
>
> >>>>>>> *From:* Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> >>>>>>> *Sent:* Fri, December 11, 2009 2:24:52 PM
>
> >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds -
> >>>>>>> 400% improvement - shrinking data centers
>
> >>>>>>> @Ray,
>
> >>>>>>> Having worked with numerous business partners in marketing roles, I
> >>>>>>> simply do not recall the overwhelming majority of businesses ever detailing
> >>>>>>> any meaningful "facts" in the public press.
>
> >>>>>>> Case studies may point out what was achieved, but rarely have I seen
> >>>>>>> any of the "how" details. Most businesses consider the details, facts, and
> >>>>>>> how to be part of their "secret sauce" / competitive advantage.
>
> >>>>>>> After 100 years, I'm still waiting for Coca-Cola to divulge its
> >>>>>>> formula, but I'm not expecting it anytime soon.
>
> >>>>>>> Perhaps it's nothing more than our different perceptions as to what
> >>>>>>> can be expected to be communicated in the marketplace.
>
> >>>>>>> Now, if I was a buyer of any product or service, you can bet that I'd
> >>>>>>> be asking about the how, facts, details, etc. before I'd buy into a service
> >>>>>>> offering proclaiming 400% performance improvement.
>
> >>>>>>> -RD
>
>
> >>>>>>> @Ray,
>
> >>>>>>> Having worked with numerous business partners in marketing roles, I
> >>>>>>> simply do not recall the overwhelming majority of businesses ever detailing
> >>>>>>> any meaningful "facts" in the public press.
>
> >>>>>>> Case studies may point out what was achieved, but rarely have I seen
> >>>>>>> any of the "how" details. Most businesses consider the details, facts, and
> >>>>>>> how to be part of their "secret sauce" / competitive advantage.
>
> >>>>>>> After 100 years, I'm still waiting for Coca-Cola to divulge its
> >>>>>>> formula, but I'm not expecting it anytime soon.
>
> >>>>>>> Perhaps it's nothing more than our different perceptions as to what
> >>>>>>> can be expected to be communicated in the marketplace.
>
> >>>>>>> Now, if I was a buyer of any product or service, you can bet that I'd
> >>>>>>> be asking about the how, facts, details, etc. before I'd buy into a service
> >>>>>>> offering proclaiming 400% performance improvement.
>
> >>>>>>> -RD
>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Ray Nugent <rnug...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> The point is this is all mom and apple pie and not a shred of fact.
> >>>>>>>> If you want to believe their claims out of hand you're certainly entitled
> >>>>>>>> to. I would prefer some more detail, otherwise it's just a press release.
> >>>>>>>> This is, after all, the Phone Company...
>
> >>>>>>>> Ray
>
> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>
> >>>>>>>> The point is this is all mom and apple pie and not a shred of fact.
> >>>>>>>> If you want to believe their claims out of hand you're certainly entitled
> >>>>>>>> to. I would prefer some more detail, otherwise it's just a press release.
> >>>>>>>> This is, after all, the Phone Company...
>
> >>>>>>>> Ray
>
> >>>>>>>> *From:* Ray DePena <ray.dep...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> *To:* cloud-c...@googlegroups.com
> >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thu, December 10, 2009 7:00:33 PM
>
> >>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ Cloud Computing ] Verizon Eats Its Own Clouds -
> >>>>>>>> 400% improvement - shrinking data centers
>
> >>>>>>>> I didn't say that offshoring is the Cloud. What I said was if the
> >>>>>>>> technology enabled the offshoring of an IT environment those savings may
> >>>>>>>> well be included in the Verizon claims, just as they were included in the
> >>>>>>>> Unisys savings claims, all under the banner of cloud savings.
>
> >>>>>>>> I understand what you're saying, and you're certainly entitled to
> >>>>>>>> your opinion, though if I were the vendor and the use of cloud enabled
> >>>>>>>> offshoring, I would include that in total savings figure.
>
> >>>>>>>> While it's good to be skeptical of such claims, and they don't
> >>>>>>>> provide much detail, just looking at their consolidation of multiple
> >>>>>>>> hardware and software vendors alone that's a large improvement. Of course,
> >>>>>>>> many do not include that under the banner of cloud computing.
>
> >>>>>>>> "including hardware and software from multiple vendors. To be more
> >>>>>>>> efficient, Verizon consolidated hardware, operating systems, databases,
> >>>>>>>> middleware, and applications and took a virtual approach to enterprise
> >>>>>>>> resource
>
> ...
>
> >>>>>>>> I didn't say that offshoring is the Cloud. What I said was if the
> >>>>>>>> technology enabled the offshoring of an IT environment those savings may
> >>>>>>>> well be included in the Verizon claims, just as they were included in the
> >>>>>>>> Unisys savings claims, all under the banner of cloud savings.
>
> >>>>>>>> I understand what you're saying, and you're certainly entitled to
> >>>>>>>> your opinion, though if I were the vendor and the use of cloud enabled
> >>>>>>>> offshoring, I would include that in total savings figure.
>
> >>>>>>>> While it's good to be skeptical of such claims, and they don't
> >>>>>>>> provide much detail, just looking at their consolidation of multiple
> >>>>>>>> hardware and software vendors alone that's a large improvement. Of course,
> >>>>>>>> many do not include that under the banner of cloud computing.
>
> >>>>>>>> "including hardware and software from multiple vendors. To be more
> >>>>>>>> efficient, Verizon consolidated hardware, operating systems, databases,
> >>>>>>>> middleware, and applications and took a virtual approach to enterprise
> >>>>>>>> resource
>
>
> read more »
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