Clojure web framework

[goracio]

Hi

So i'd like to point to the problem here. Clojure web framework in google get these results, at least for me

1. noir

2. stackoverflow question 2008 year

3. stackoverflow question 2010 year

4. joodo ( outdated thing developed by one person)

5. Compojure ( routing dsl)

So there is no popular framework these days for clojure.

Noir is mostly Chris Granger thing. As he make Lighttable today Noir developed by some other people ( or may be on person not sure). Main site instructions are nice but already outdated ( lein2). No news, no blog, no new features, no examples, no infrastructure. Lein new project, insert noir in dependencies and you don't have working app, you must add :main and stuff to work. What about testing ? no info, no structure, decide on your own. 

It's no secret that web development today is biggest and popular trend. If language and it's community have good web framework that language will gain more popularity. 

Take Ruby on rails it has over 30 core contributers, huuuge community, active development, industry standart web development framework. Good testing, development infrastracture, easy start, sprockets for js css managment and so on. Also it has some books about testing and framework itself which is good start point for newbies. 

I like Clojure, for simplicity mostly. It has amazing power and i believe it can be very good platform for web development. 

So what i suggest :

Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) .

Form working core group from 5-6 people.

Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir)

Make good site about it

Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version)

Make first version

Make couple good examples

Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently).

--------------

http://www.playframework.org/ good example what site could be

Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html

Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure Web framework project.

Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect place where this thing can shine.

Let's discuss.

[Sven Johansson]

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 9:36 AM, goracio <feli...@gmail.com> wrote:

So what i suggest :

Take 1 platform for web development in Clojure (for example noir as most mature framework) .

Form working core group from 5-6 people.

Decide about name of the project ( or take Noir)

Make good site about it

Make a plan for development ( what core features should have first version)

Make first version

Make couple good examples

Make good documentation and maybe a book ( community book for example on github that will be online and updated frequently).

+1 

I've been having great fun & success with Noir and would hate to see it covered in moss and in a state of disrepair.

If time permits, I'd be interested in participating, but time is not something of which I have plenty at the moment.

But first of all, have you reached out to whoever is the maintainer today?

Regards/Sven

 

[goracio]

No i don't. Project page for now https://github.com/noir-clojure/noir and it's updated 3 months ago. I guess project maintained by one person https://github.com/Raynes and i guess he does not have much time to do the work. Usage info still outdated

If you want to include Noir in an already created leiningen project, simply add this to your dependencies:

[noir "1.2.2"]

Project maintained mostly at https://clojars.org/noir because there is "1.3.0-beta10" version already and github just abandoned.

[Michael Wood]

On 28 September 2012 10:22, goracio <feli...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No i don't. Project page for now https://github.com/noir-clojure/noir and
> it's updated 3 months ago. I guess project maintained by one person
> https://github.com/Raynes and i guess he does not have much time to do the
> work. Usage info still outdated
>
> If you want to include Noir in an already created leiningen project, simply
> add this to your dependencies:
>
> [noir "1.2.2"]
>
> Project maintained mostly at https://clojars.org/noir because there is
> "1.3.0-beta10" version already and github just abandoned.

Just because the documentation is not up to date it does not mean that
github has been abandoned. If you look here:

https://github.com/noir-clojure/noir/blob/master/project.clj

you will see that the version on github is 1.3.0-beta10.

--
Michael Wood <esio...@gmail.com>

[Chas Emerick]

If I may offer a couple of counterpoints:

Compojure is slightly more popular than noir, at least based on the (perhaps faulty) measures of stars and forks on github, and "used by" count on http://clojuresphere.herokuapp.com.

There are good reasons why a Rails-esque framework has not yet caught on with Clojure programmers. Libraries > frameworks, and all the goodness that flows from that.  Given that perspective (smaller libraries made to compose trivially), there's really not enough work for 5-6 people to do on a single project.  Better to have some very large number of people working together on a plurality of focused libraries.

From the data we have[1], people are being quite successful with Clojure in web development contexts (anecdotally, using Compojure as well as Noir and others, too).  Documentation around libraries (and elsewhere) is recognized as a primary weakness, but starting a new, larger web Framework project isn't an obvious solution to that very distributed problem.

Finally, although it is not free, note that 'Clojure Programming'[2] provides a "from scratch" tutorial of how to use Ring, Compojure, and Enlive.

Cheers,

- Chas

[1] http://cemerick.com/2012/07/19/2012-state-of-clojure-survey/

[2] http://www.clojurebook.com

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[Mark Rathwell]

> Documentation around libraries (and elsewhere) is recognized
> as a primary weakness, but starting a new, larger web Framework project
> isn't an obvious solution to that very distributed problem.

Agree 100% with this. I think the various libraries are mostly at the
right level, and are mostly being worked on a the right pace, but
having a wiki-like place with tutorials and contributed project
examples (or walk-throughs of open stuff already available) showing
how all of the pieces can be used together (including both clj and
cljs), and which pieces are right for various types of projects would
be beneficial, I think.

Like everyone else, time is not plentiful right now, but I'd be
willing to contribute if someone has time to take the lead.

- Mark

[Sean Corfield]

The lein-noir plugin works with lein2 so you can just say:

lein new noir my-app

cd my-app

lein run

The webnoir.org website seems to provide reasonable documentation on getting started. If you have suggestions to improve the documentation, I'm sure Chris would be happy to receive them (I suspect the webnoir.org site is also a repo on github so you can send pull requests).

I ported my web framework FW/1 from CFML to Clojure for my own use but feel free to check that out too. Again, the simple lein2 approach works:

lein new fw1 my-app

cd my-app

lein run

(or PORT=8123 lein run to use a different port)

Documentation is minimal because it's deliberately a simple framework but there's an example app, also ported from the CFML version, and more docs on the CFML version's github repo - plus a fairly large user community for the CFML version :)

I don't really thinks Rails-like frameworks fit with the Clojure way of thinking. As Chas said, we're more inclined to combine a number of libraries to help build an application than to use "frameworks". FW/1 uses Ring and Enlive and provides just a thin convention-based veneer over those to achieve most of what the CFML version has offered for three years :)

Sean

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Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/

"Perfection is the enemy of the good."
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

[goracio]

"lein new noir my-app

cd my-app

lein run"

Yes i already made pull request to update README file with this.

Well there are many usefull libs for web development you can choose this and that combine them and get something. 

But from newbie perspective it's kind of a difficult question where to start from, what to use, what good practice is. 

What lib to use for persistance with Mysql, Postgre, for Mongo, is there alternative to Backbone here, how make site reactive, how to use ajax, is there MVC pattern or there is no any and so on.

How can i test my app, what best libs for that and what best practices.

How can i deploy my app, what tools i can use for that.

What debbuging tools can i use. 

Is there any special IDE or plugin to existing IDE for fast and convinient web development. Simple case - lein can autoreload/autocompile code for ClojureScript but how about a project? 

So examples and good updated guides/online book does matter. 

There should be clear point about why Clojure and Clojure applied to web better then others, how it can solve problems better then others.

How can i recommend others to use Clojure and how i answer the question "So what about clojure is there any good framework to start with and what i can do with that" ?

I am not talking about absence of any guides and recommendations about web dev in Clojure there are couple good examples but they are outdated.

And still if Noir is like Sinatra for not too big sites and projecst and Rails is like a pro maybe there should be something like a pro at Clojure.

пятница, 28 сентября 2012 г., 19:37:05 UTC+4 пользователь Sean Corfield написал:

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[Mark Rathwell]

> Well there are many usefull libs for web development you can choose this and
> that combine them and get something.
> But from newbie perspective it's kind of a difficult question where to start
> from, what to use, what good practice is.
> What lib to use for persistance with Mysql, Postgre, for Mongo, is there
> alternative to Backbone here, how make site reactive, how to use ajax, is
> there MVC pattern or there is no any and so on.
> How can i test my app, what best libs for that and what best practices.
> How can i deploy my app, what tools i can use for that.
> What debbuging tools can i use.
> Is there any special IDE or plugin to existing IDE for fast and convinient
> web development. Simple case - lein can autoreload/autocompile code for
> ClojureScript but how about a project?

These are all documentation issues. It's not that documentation
doesn't exist, but I think one consolidated location telling telling
the entire story of Clojure web development would be extremely helpful
for people looking to answer the questions you have listed.

> And still if Noir is like Sinatra for not too big sites and projecst and
> Rails is like a pro maybe there should be something like a pro at Clojure.

I think this is really an issue of combining the right existing
components, and knowing what those right components are for a given
situation.

>>> clojure+u...@googlegroups.com

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>>
>>
>> --
>> Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
>> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
>> World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
>>
>> "Perfection is the enemy of the good."
>> -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
>

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[Matt]

There is already a rails like Clojure web framework which has been around for a while called Conjure: https://github.com/macourtney/Conjure

Here is the wiki to get started: https://github.com/macourtney/Conjure/wiki

The most recent release is out of date, but I have been working on an update. I've completed all of the new features of the update and now I'm running through tests and making sure the tutorial is still accurate. Unfortunately, I haven't had as much time to work on it as I would have liked recently.

Though I'm using it at my work, not many others seem to be using it. Most people in the community prefer libraries over frameworks. I doubt you'll do much better with your own web framework if you don't somehow take that into account. After seeing a lot of interest in Drift (https://github.com/macourtney/drift) when I broke it out of Conjure into its own library, I broke Conjure into a group of libraries for the next release. If you do make your own web framework, you may want to use some parts of Conjure.

-Matt

[Sergey Didenko]

So we are back to the documentation reach issue again.

I think the best solution would be one (!) central community wiki and
prominent mentions of it from the clojure.org .

The wiki could contain the links to the latest tutorials and so on. It
should have quite low barrier to entry.

[Anthony Grimes]

Open source projects aren't the result of one person's activity. Other people are welcome to contribute. Noir isn't dead or anything, it's just slow at the moment.

Furthermore, yes, the website is outdated. I do not have access to the website in order to update it, and there hasn't been a non-beta release yet anyways. Chris has things he wanted to see done first, things I don't intend to do, so it's mostly waiting on that. You can certainly use Noir -- I've got two websites running on the latest beta version right now. lein2 works fine with it. Nothing to install, in fact.

I am maintaining noir to the best of my ability. This mostly means I merge pull requests that make sense or ask Chris if they don't. But I don't have any time for it at all, so any time I do find is pretty rare. Besides that, I'm a bigger fan of Compojure these days. If the only argument for a framework over libraries is "newbies find it easier", I agree that documentation is the answer and not another monolithic framework. It isn't hard to use Compojure and other web development libraries. I don't think choice is an issue. You can find out what libraries are most common with simple google queries and common sense.

[Sean Corfield]

Clojure offers a lot of choice. Great for experienced developers, hard for newbies. Pick something, run with it, contribute documentation to make it better. 

There have been several attempts to create the "one true wiki" and so far they've all failed for lack of contributions from the folks who have the most need (the folks who are already successful with the software don't need the wiki and are generally too busy to contribute - and also don't have the newbie's mindset so it's hard to write the right material at the right level).

Definitely Clojure's Achilles heel...

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[Simone Mosciatti]

On Saturday, September 29, 2012 1:48:10 PM UTC+2, Anthony Grimes wrote:

I do not have access to the website in order to update it

Somebody (Chris Granger ???) has the access, if you are actually maintaining it you should have the access too... 

 

Chris has things he wanted to see done first, things I don't intend to do, so it's mostly waiting on that.

 

Like what ? Do you refer to the road map ? Just example and tutorial ?

If there is something more would be cool to know... Maybe somebody has already wrote something, or he could work on it...

 

I agree that documentation is the answer and not another monolithic framework.

 

 Documentation is always an issue, few times ago I propose to organize a fund raiser to improve OUR project, the project of OUR community, stuff we should be proud of, and the improve of the doc was one of the biggest issue... However nobody supported me.

 

It isn't hard to use Compojure and other web development libraries.

You can really use noir with just the few example in the website, although I had some previous (few) knowledge of web developing (django)

[larry google groups]

goracio,

This is an important issue. Many developers are familiar with an
ecosystem built around a well known framework. Ruby has Rails, Java
has Spring, Python has Django. Clojure might benefit by imitating that
pattern.

However, I will point out, Clojure is almost 5 years old, and so far
that pattern has not emerged. Maybe there is a good reason for this? I
am sure that you have heard the argument that the big frameworks exist
because composability is difficult in many languages. But
composability is easy in a Lisp, so the need for a big framework is
reduced. Clojure's culture and style so far has been one in which a
project gets stitched together with many small libraries, rather than
a single monolithic framework (and even Rails has moved away from
being monolithic, toward a style of being many optional gems).

I think your project sounds like it could be useful to many people. I
wish you all the luck in the world. But for my part, I am a refugee
from the world of monolithic frameworks. My work has forced me to
spend the last few years working with Ruby/Rails and PHP/Symfony. For
me, Clojure is like a breath of fresh air. I enjoy building an app
where I can decide what libraries I really need. And I know that both
Rails and Symfony are slowly moving to break themselves up in smaller
pieces. Most of the big frameworks would like to be where Clojure
already is.

Maybe Clojure really needs The One Big Web Framework That Does
Everything. But that style seems to be slowly going out of fashion
elsewhere. It is possible that the future of every language is like
the present-tense Clojure experience: many libraries, composed as you
wish.

Of course, Clojure has the great advantage of being a Lisp.

> --------------http://www.playframework.org/good example what site could be
> Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on railshttp://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html
> Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokkehttps://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice insterface,

[larry google groups]

> How can i recommend others to use Clojure and how i answer the question "So
> what about clojure is there any good framework to start with and what i can
> do with that" ?

That is a great question. I think the appropriate response is to be
honest about the culture of Clojure. When I try to answer that
question to other developers I say:

"In Clojure, there is a collection of standard libraries, rather than
a single framework. Almost everyone starts off with Ring, which is
exactly the same thing as Rack. For routes, people use either
Moustache or Compojure. For the database, people use ClojureQL or
Korma. For HTML templates, people use either Hiccup or Enlive. You
pick the library that matches your preferred style, and all of the
libraries are surprisingly easy to glue together."

That is 6 sentences -- a fairly concise way of communicating one of
the most exciting aspects of Clojure.

> >>http://www.playframework.org/good example what site could be

> >> Alternative to online book can be guides, as for ruby on rails
> >>http://guides.rubyonrails.org/index.html
> >> Another good news that there is nice web IDE for Clojure by Bodil Stokke
> >>https://github.com/bodil/catnip. Super easy install, very nice
> >> insterface, reactive interface ( no need for browser refresh, autorecompile
> >> when you save ) web based ! and under active development, just perfect
> >> place for newbies to start. So this project also can be added to Clojure
> >> Web framework project.
> >> Also we have ClojureScript so Clojure web framework would be perfect
> >> place where this thing can shine.
> >> Let's discuss.
>
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> > Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
> > An Architect's View --http://corfield.org/

> > World Singles, LLC. --http://worldsingles.com/

[larry google groups]

> Documentation is always an issue, few times ago I propose to organize a
> fund raiser to improve OUR project, the project of OUR community, stuff we
> should be proud of, and the improve of the doc was one of the biggest
> issue... However nobody supported me.

I think it helps when there is money as an incentive. People have
limited time, and the issue comes up, how do you justify answering
questions on StackOverflow for free when you could spend the same time
going out to a nice dinner with your girlfriend/wife?

I had $45,000 go through my "Ask A WordPress Question" website, and
the money helped turn it into a very good WordPress resource. I have
been thinking I could do the same for Clojure, with all the money
(save for PayPal fees) going to the programmers who answer the
questions. Not sure if it will work though, as these sites work best
for communities that have a large number of beginners who are willing
to basically pay for tutoring, and Clojure is nothing like that. Might
work for Java, I guess, or maybe I could set it up for the whole JVM?
I need to think about this some. But I agree, more documentation is
needed.

On Sep 29, 8:46 am, Simone Mosciatti <mweb....@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 29, 2012 1:48:10 PM UTC+2, Anthony Grimes wrote:
>
> I do not have access to the website in order to update it
>
>
>
> Somebody (Chris Granger ???) has the access, if you are actually
> maintaining it you should have the access too...
>

> > Chris has things he wanted to see done first, *things I don't intend to do
> > *, so it's mostly waiting on that.

[goracio]

Well main points of the discussion are:

1. Noir is enough for start.

2. No framework is needed because you can combine some useful libraries and that's it.

3. Some agree that guides or wiki still needed but no luck with contributors so far.

Ok have to think about that. Will ask some major people ( David Nolen and maybe Rich Hickey) what they think about that.

пятница, 28 сентября 2012 г., 11:36:20 UTC+4 пользователь goracio написал:

[Simone Mosciatti]

Immutant ( http://immutant.org/ ) IMO is moving in a great direction, if I have understand is wrapping several libraries in just one enviroment...

And red hat is behind it I just find out, that usually means great doc...

[Leonardo Borges]

On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 12:27 PM, James MacAulay <jmac...@gmail.com> wrote:

Frameworks have benefits which can't easily be achieved with documentation. The most obvious to me is that a framework lets you fire up a complete system of carefully curated components in no time. They also let you defer choices until you actually need to care about them.

Because Clojure's libraries are so composable, it seems like a good approach to fill this gap would be "just" a lein project template with an opinionated set of dependencies, a sane and predictable folder hierarchy, and a good Getting Started Guide. A quick clojars search reveals many that might fit that description, but none have very high visibility.

That's a good point. I put together a repo that I've been using as my main template for web apps for a while. You can find it on github: https://github.com/leonardoborges/clj-boilerplate

It tries to bridge that gap. The idea is to clone it, follow the readme and you should have a new webapp running in a short amount of time.

I would like to turn it into a lein template but haven't had the time to do so. Still, it could be useful to some.

Cheers,

Leonardo Borges

[Yakovlev Roman]

Ok that's good idea really. 

As i can see you just use ring compojure korma for mysql and postgresql for pg database.

As for me i use for my first project this config

(defproject testpro "0.1.0-SNAPSHOT"

  :plugins [[lein-catnip "0.4.1"]]

  :description "FIXME: write description"

  :url "http://example.com/FIXME"

  :license {:name "Eclipse Public License"

            :url "http://www.eclipse.org/legal/epl-v10.html"}

  :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0"]

                 [noir "1.3.0-beta10"]

                 [lein-catnip "0.4.1"]

                 [com.novemberain/monger "1.2.0"]   ]

  :main ^{:skip-aot true} testpro.server)

This config use Noir, monger for MongoDb, catnip as development ide ( though i switch time to time to sublime 2). 

So connection with db very easy as monger has very good documentation. 

(mg/connect!) ; Connect to db

(mg/set-db! (mg/get-db "myweb")) ; Choose db

 require monger.core for this stuff to work

Also my app has 

views

models

helpers 

folders and main page with just actions and pages for the app. Noir bootstrap gives you some structure from the start which includes models and views also.

So main thing missed at Noir is useful modules like gems for Rails. In Rails you can add  "devise" or "nifty-generators" which gives you Authentication, Authorization from scratch and templates and basic authentication from nifty and other good stuff. 

For Noir project there should be lein plugins i guess, but will be those plugins built in or use noir as platform that is the question.  

[Jim Crossley]

Hi Simone,

Simone Mosciatti <mweb...@gmail.com> writes:

> Immutant ( http://immutant.org/ ) IMO is moving in a great direction,
> if I have understand is wrapping several libraries in just one
> enviroment...

Since you brought it up, I'd like to clarify terminology a bit in case
anyone thinks Immutant is a framework.

An *application* is a collection of *libraries* assembled in a
particular way to provide some service.

A *framework* enforces a "particular way", essentially providing a
template for building your application.

Immutant is not a framework, it's an application server, a single
process capable of running multiple applications simultaneously,
including some commodity services like messaging, scheduling and caching
that, because they're integrated, can be easily clustered and
coordinated.

Immutant does provide libraries to invoke those services, but if and how
you use them in your application is completely up to you.

> And red hat is behind it I just find out, that usually means great
> doc...

You mean like this? ;-)
https://twitter.com/gphil/statuses/253285427702816768

Sorry to hijack the thread,
Jim

[kovas boguta]

Lets not forget http://clojurescriptone.com/

Its a pretty amazing artifact, a complete app with perfect
documentation. Its also essentially a template.

If someone is totally lost on how to get started with clojure web
programming, just go to that.

In the more general case, I strongly agree that lein templates are the
way to go.

Its so great so just create a new project via the lein plugins. Its
not totally idiot proof, but way better than inert texts telling you
how to install various things.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 10:27 PM, James MacAulay <jmac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frameworks have benefits which can't easily be achieved with documentation.
> The most obvious to me is that a framework lets you fire up a complete
> system of carefully curated components in no time. They also let you defer
> choices until you actually need to care about them.
>
> Because Clojure's libraries are so composable, it seems like a good approach
> to fill this gap would be "just" a lein project template with an opinionated
> set of dependencies, a sane and predictable folder hierarchy, and a good
> Getting Started Guide. A quick clojars search reveals many that might fit
> that description, but none have very high visibility.
>

> -James

[arekanderu]

Hello,

I had a similar question as the OP so I thought i should post it in this thread instead of starting a new one.

I am trying to build a web services api which will only respond in json format. I had a look at everything suggested in this topic and I am leaning towards noir. Do you think this would be a good option for a web services api or should i go with ring + compojure, or something else?? In addition, I will be needing to add authentication and authorization at the api and I haven't found a noir middleware to be able to handle this. Do I need to roll out something of my own with the use of noir pre-route and maybe a middleware or is there something in existence which I am not aware of?

Thank you for any replies.

[gaz jones]

You do not need noir to create a simple json api, just use compojure.
I find the Cheshire json library to also be useful:
https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire. Authentication and authorization
libs were pretty much up to you until
https://github.com/cemerick/friend was released fairly recently, so
you could look at that (I haven't used it myself). I would also
recommend starting the server with embedded jetty rather than mess
around with app containers, it's far simpler (look at
ring.adapter.jetty).

We have many json apis written in clojure in production where I work,
and they have worked out great for us.

[arekanderu]

Thanks a lot Gaz :)

I am pretty new to clojure but I like it a lot so far. Good to know that there are a lot of things going fast in the clojure community!

[zhujinxian]

(defn render-test [ret tmt]
  (-> (resp/response "------render----test------") 
    (#(resp/content-type %1 "text/plain"))))

(defn foo
  "I don't do a whole lot."
  [x]
  (str "来自源码目录的参数：" x))

(defn handler [^Integer x]
    {:$r render-test :text (str "hello world, road goes sucess!" (foo x))})

(defn home [req content ^Integer num]
    {:hiccup "home.clj" :content (str "home" content) :num num})

(defroad road (GET "/web-test-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone/main" handler) 
              (GET "/web-test-0.1.0-SNAPSHOT-standalone/home/:num{\\d+}" home))

(defn -main [& args]
  (log/info "---------log4j test-------")
  (jetty/run-jetty road {:port 3000}))

https://github.com/zhujinxian/road.git

[Alex Wang]

+1.

Now is 2015 :)