Hello there!

Chas Emerick's recent "State of Clojure" survey [http://bit.ly/dtdAwb]
indicated that a significant proportion of Clojure users are beginning
to use Clojure for web development. A recent Hacker News posting
[http://bit.ly/91Bu5J] seems to corroborate these results, with
several Clojure-based web applications already out in the wild.

As one of the main developers of Ring and Compojure, I'd be very
interested to hear more about how people are using Clojure to build
web apps. To this end, I have a few questions I'd like to quiz Clojure
web developers about:

1. Have you written, or are you writing, a web application that uses
Clojure? What does it do?

2. Which libraries or frameworks are you using? Which versions?

3. What made you choose Clojure to develop web applications in? What
are the strengths of Clojure web development?

4. What do you think are the current weaknesses of web development in
Clojure? What could be improved?

5. Anything else you want to comment on?

Please reply to this thread with your answers, and thank you very much
in advance for your time. I really appreciate any feedback you can
provide.

- James

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 2:23 PM, James Reeves

I don't know that I'll be writing entire web applications in Clojure
any time soon but I expect to be using Clojure in some form from
(essentially) Java-based web applications some time soon, much as I
currently use Groovy and/or Scala for parts of a web application. I'll
be interested in both the easiest and most performant ways to use
Clojure code from something Java based. FWIW, I use CFML (running on
Railo, a free open source JBoss community project, that compiles CFML
down to Java bytecode and runs in a Servlet container) as my primary
web templating / scripting language right now and drop down to other
languages where useful / appropriate.

Looking forward to hearing how others are doing web development with
Clojure! Thanx for kicking off this thread James.
--
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

On Jun 23, 11:23 pm, James Reeves <weavejes...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Hi James!

:)

I've written one very simple "internal organsiation" site in clojure
that's finished except for a few little bugs. Should be cleared next
monday.

compojure in whatever was the last release version - with a few lines
of patches.
joda-time 1.6 - which should be mandatory for any java/clojure project
dealing with time in any way
and lucene 3.0.1

I hate typing any more than is needed. This means a Lisp variant.
Clojure is just the best Lisp I know to program in, and the JVM is a
bonus if you need it.

See the previous question. Plus "pure" functional programming meshes
well with typical Front end - Controller - Database web programming.

Not sure. Will get back on this. I will say that anyone claiming to
have a full integrated solution in clojure right now is probably
wrong. And I'm not sure we need an integrated system at all. Which is
why I like compojure splitting up into real composable parts.

Stick with relational databases unless you really need to get rid of
them.

Don't think of the previous sentence as an excuse to squeeze/enforce
an OO/relational mapping in whatever web framework you're thinking of
writing. I'm doing fine without one, thank you very much.

Cheers,
Joost Diepenmaat
Zeekat Softwareontwikkeling.
http://joost.zeekat.nl/

On Jun 24, 1:55 am, Joost <jo...@zeekat.nl> wrote:

This may be interesting to anyone in the US or Japan:

All the patches I made were to fix UTF-8 handling. I live in Europe.
We use characters like Ø and ß and you'd better get used to it.

James,

First, thank you for all of your work in this area.  It is greatly  
appreciated.  My answers follow:

1. DocuHarvest ( https://docuharvest.com ), which I've already talked  
about here.  Broadly speaking, it extracts data from documents, and  
it's just getting started.

2. Relevant to web development, DocuHarvest uses compojure 0.3.x  
(modified to suit clojure 1.2 HEAD), HEAD of enlive and clutch, spring-
security v3, jetty for local development, Tomcat for staging and  
production environments, and enclojure's REPL server library in all  
environments.

3. Compojure gets me very close to the metal, or as much as one can be  
w.r.t. HTTP.  Middleware is the pleasant superset of all other flavors  
of web request handling; helluva lot of power there with very little  
cost.  Mix that with a solid REPL (via enclojure for me) for zero-
turnaround development, and I'm very, very happy.

4. I want to be able to define HTTP APIs more concisely.  compojure-
rest (http://github.com/ordnungswidrig/compojure-rest) and clj-conneg (http://github.com/rnewman/clj-conneg
) are pointing the way towards what the response to that looks like, I  
think.

The most common issues I see are related to packaging and deployment.  
I think this could probably be made easier for those that aren't  
familiar with the java way of doing webapp deployment.  Getting people  
familiar with the (honestly simple) mostly-canned tooling solutions  
that are out there would help, but short of that, perhaps a pre-
compiled servlet (configured via a web.xml file that defines the top-
level route that all requests are dropped into, etc) would help.  
Building the war file would still be necessary, but that's when-in-
Rome territory.  IMO, every time someone deploys a compojure app via a  
hacked-up shell script and embedded jetty, a kitten is killed. ;-)

5. I better quit while I'm ahead for today!

And no, thank you, and everyone else that's made web development with  
Clojure as pleasant as it is! :-D

- Chas

On Jun 23, 2010, at 5:23 PM, James Reeves wrote:

On Jun 23, 2:23 pm, James Reeves <weavejes...@googlemail.com> wrote:

My blog and a couple of other blog-like hobby sites.  I also wrote a
small standalone data-collection app at work.  It collects survey data
for psych research.

[[org.clojure/clojure "1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT"]
 [org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.2.0-SNAPSHOT"]
 [compojure "0.4.0-RC3"]
 [hiccup "0.2.4"]
 [clout "0.2.0"]
 [ring/ring-jetty-adapter "0.2.0"]
 [ring/ring-devel "0.2.0"]
 [oyako "0.1.1"]
 [postgres-pool "1.1.0"]
 [joda-time "1.6"]
 [rhino/js "1.7R2"]
 [sandbar/sandbar "0.2.3"]]

I try to stick with bleeding-edge versions of almost everything.  You
almost have to, things change too quickly.

DSL-based HTML generation (as per Hiccup) is a huge selling point for
me.  Nothing else compares.  Lispy interactive development via REPL is
great for webapps.  Web development is a good place to take advantage
of macros and other boilerplate-elimination techniques that a Lisp
gives you.

I mostly chose Clojure for web development mostly because I like
Clojure and wanted an excuse to use it more.

Deployment is my main headache.  Better documentation / more examples
for Compojure and other libs would be very useful.  DB interaction /
data persistence is a bit of a weakness, but the Clojure world is
improving very quickly in this area.

Web development in Clojure is loads of fun.  Thanks for your work on
Ring/Compojure/etc., they're great tools.

--Brian

On Wed, 23 Jun 2010 17:23:16 -0400, James Reeves  

I'm writing cloudhoist.com, a cross cloud management console and api, that  
lets you start and stop nodes on Amazon, Rackspace, etc, configure them  
with your favourite stacks (eg, tomcat, mysql, couchdb), deploy you apps  
and carry out admin actions.

Ring, moustache, enlive, scriptjure, clutch.  All latest versions. Jetty,  
tomcat, nginx.

It's a lisp, with all that entails, and it deploys nicely on the JVM.

I am interested in using clojure for client side coding.  Ring friendly  
authentication and authorisation libs would be nice (I rolled my own). I  
miss rails' named routes, but am sure something better will materialise  
for clojure.

Thanks to everyone for their work in this area!

--
Hugo Duncan

Hi,

On Jun 23, 11:23 pm, James Reeves <weavejes...@googlemail.com> wrote:

I'm guerilla coding a small web app to do some very non-standard
statistical analysis of customer returns (ABS/ESC systems for cars).
The whole thing is in stealth mode. So it won't ever be released to
the public. (When I look at the code, I have to say: "Luckily!") It is
a webapp to allow some closely related departments to access the
information w/o having to deploy an app.

    compile 'org.clojure:clojure:1.1.0'
    compile 'org.clojure:clojure-contrib:1.1.0'
    compile 'enlive:enlive:1.0.0-SNAPSHOT'
    compile 'ring:ring-core:0.2.0'
    compile 'ring:ring-devel:0.2.0'
    compile 'ring:ring-jetty-adapter:0.2.0'
    compile 'moustache:moustache:1.0.0-SNAPSHOT'
    compile 'net.sf.opencsv:opencsv:2.1'
    compile 'clj-stacktrace:clj-stacktrace:0.1.0-SNAPSHOT'
    compile 'congomongo:congomongo:0.1.0-SNAPSHOT'
    compile 'joda-time:joda-time:1.6'
    compile 'jfree:jfreechart:1.0.12'
    compile 'jasperreports:jasperreports:3.5.3'

It's a lisp and my exclusive language for hobby projects since March
2008. The only other language I have a comparable knowledge is C. And
I didn't want to start with C. Also deploy: Java is here ubiquitous. I
can just take a plain jar to some machine and am done. (I'm didn't
kill a kitten. I sacrificed a puppy instead.) I have an embedded
nailgun server my vimclojure talks to. So I can hot swap functions and
immediately test in the browser. (I'm sure there are better ways to do
this, but at the moment this is efficient enough for me)

I can't say anything for that one. I would have to learn how to write
a webapp first.

Clojure is fun. :)

Sincerely
Meikel

I am and have been extending an existing production java web
application environment with all new server work now being done in
clojure. It is a complex jvm server running tomcat and other threaded
proprietary services and integration paths into back-end feed systems.
Front-end stuff, previously jsp is now all being replaced by
javascript/jquery and ajax.

I am also working on a netty/clojure setup to create some distributed
event-driven processes for scaling up the services and in the future
replacing most of the the above in-jvm/threaded routines. Down the
line I hope to release some of this as open-source.

In the early stages, I tried compojure, but my setup needed much
tighter java/clojure interop and hence most of my effort has gone in
that direction. I do use enlive, joda-time, jfreechart and a bit of
clj-html/hiccup. Java libs - tomcat, log4j, apache-commons,
postgresql-jdbc. Plus many person-years of various proprietary java
and unix utility libraries for (hosted) infrastructure and operations
management. Generally I have found most of the other java frameworks
too "heavy" for my rather close-to-the-wire preferences.

I learnt a bit of lisp way back but career-wise all my work has
generally been c/c++/java based. I spent about 9 months with scala
hoping for an improved jvm capability, but found it too tedious when
trying to work on the complex setup mentioned above. Happened upon
clojure 18 months ago and this was the holy-grail incarnate. You
really can get pretty close to expressing directly what's in your
mind. Haven't looked back since.

Plenty of room for event-driven techniques, javascript/jquery
generation stuff, distributed processing, disk-based persistence, etc.
The new protocols/types/records and the coming primitives improvements
are very exciting.

Performance, performance, performance and by the way, performance.
When you run server applications, especially non-blocking, event
driven, every little milli-second per function counts hugely when
scaling up to thousands, tens of thousands or more asynchronously
accessed services. Clojure has done wonders in eliminating boilerplate
tedium and maintenance grovel, so generally I would now like to focus
on improving my reality of 30% coding, 70%
tuning/benchmarking/refactoring.

- Regards, Adrian.

Hi James,
For me the big missing item is Comet/Websockets support. More and more
of the web
development I do requires near real time communication and to have
that feature integrated
in the framework (like lift) would be great.
thanks
Jimmy

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:23 PM, James Reeves

we are currently developing a game server backend using clojure.

we are using grails for the web app aspect, and uses the grails
plugin to call clojure code.

in this case, we are really using grails for the web aspect, but uses
clojure for AI and game logic. clojure is very good at that.

too many scattered libraries and approaches. For me, it's about
problem solving. I would like to be able to just grab something, and
get it started. Right now, if a new clojure user ask, I want to develop
a web app, what should I use? Compojure? Ring? What template
system should I use? enlive? str html? hiccup? How do you deal with
database? clj-record? clojuresql? How do you make outbound
REST request?

clojure is still young. I hope in time, a web dev approach that's
more clojure-ish. lift has done a good way to show what a web
framework using scala and functional style would look like.

I look forward to see something like this for clojure one day.

--
Omnem crede diem tibi diluxisse supremum.

I don't use Clojure for web development and I thought sharing why could be
useful too.

For web development, my favourite tool is
Django<http://www.djangoproject.com/>.
It comes as a fullstack framework which means I have everything I need out
of the box. Templates, caching, ORM, a kick-ass autogenerated admin section,
cross-domain request forgery protection etc. and the documentation is really
top notch.

I'd rather have Clojure than Python but all the goodness that Django
provides is such a time saver that I feel I'd lose too much time with
Clojure.

If I had a full-stack, well-documented clojure framework, I'd jump to that.

I've created a commercial app that has the server side written start
to finish in Clojure. It leverages the existing calendaring and
scheduling functionality of ScheduleWorld - which was written in Java.
(It was trivial to do this using
Clojure)

http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/em
(It came out of beta last week.)

Compojure - patched from git now and then to work with Clojure 1.2.

It's difficult to answer this in a couple of sentences - all of
strengths of Clojure come into play here. Rich's videos that explain
the strengths of Clojure all turn out to be true.
I've been coding enterprise server-side services for ~20 years using C/
C++/Java.
Compared to C/C++/Java I've found the strengths of Clojure beget:

1. better designs
2. less bugs: immutable data, better designs, STM, atoms, ...
3. faster code given the same effort: lazy sequences, memoization,
clojure.[core,contrib],
4. better productivity: the REPL, the Clojure language, etc. it all
snowballs here.

weaknesses: none really. I sometimes miss the perfect command
completion (with auto import generation) provided by Eclipse/Java when
I do Java interop. But this is an editor issue. (And I'm really happy
with vimclojure.)

Improved: I think I'd be happy with Clojure and Compojure as they
stand for a long time. But since you asked:

LOGGING: The current logging capabilities are not useful to people
creating services with lots of users. The only way logging is useful
is to have one file peruser logging. We wrote our own logging system
that does this and it works great. At midnight the logging system
creates a new directory (based on the date) andstarts using that. So
if someone emails and says at this date/time operation X failed we can
easily analyze the logs around that time.
(A while back ScheduleWorld was signing up 800 people / day with 8000
simultaneous established http connections doing work. Imagine the
intertwined logging data...Per user logging is the best way.)

Thank you for creating Compojure.
1. defroutes = excellent way of defining our services.
2. decorate = fantastic fine-grained way for us to decorate our
services.
3. requests just have to return a map. Excellent.

Compojure is simple to use and never gets in the way. We have nginx
fronting a cluster of boxes. Our Compojure services respond to
requests, and sometimes theyalso dynamically create and manage static
responses (nginx returns a static file if the request has been seen
before and no other request invalidates the cached response).

(The other Clojure web frameworks might be as good. I don't meant to
take anything away from them. I have only used Compojure.)

Cheers.

1. Have you written, or are you writing, a web application that uses
Clojure? What does it do?

I am an independent contractor and do a lot of corporate intranet web
applications. All of my clients support Java. Each year I write a few
new applications and spend a lot of time maintaining old Java
applications. The first new application that I wrote this year was
pure Clojure. It was a very simple application for collecting ideas
from employees. It was great to be able to use Lisp and yet integrate
and deploy into a Java environment. The application was deployed to
WebSphere as a war file, connects to an SQL Server database and uses
the company's LDAP Java libraries. I plan to use Clojure for all new
projects.

I also work for a research group with a bunch of statisticians
building web based tools based on the work that they do. Usually
taking some nasty spreadsheet that someone has created and turning it
into a web application. Clojure (functional programming) with Incanter
will be a perfect fit for this type of project.

2. Which libraries or frameworks are you using? Which versions?

[org.clojure/clojure "1.1.0"]
[org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.1.0"]
[compojure "0.4.0-RC3"]
[hiccup "0.2.3"]
[sandbar "0.2.4"]
[enlive "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"]
[carte "0.1.0"]
[inflections "0.3"]

I am also working on Sandbar and Carte. Sandbar provides middleware to
allow one to work with the session as if it were a global map with put
and get functions. It also provides middleware for authentication and
authorization. Carte is non-object oriented relational mapping. Both
are very new.

3. What made you choose Clojure to develop web applications in? What
are the strengths of Clojure web development?

1. Functional programming is a better fit than OO for web
applications.
2. Lisp is as DRY as you can get. Every other environment that I have
worked in, you get to some point where you can no longer create
abstractions and have to resort to design patterns, code generation or
non-primary language configuration. I don't see this ever happening
with Clojure.
3. It is just Java. Easy deployment into any Java container. Clients
get a Java app and there is much rejoicing.
4. Mutable objects as a default are bad, even for web applications.
5. Interactive REPL development.
6. Ring and Compojure are exactly what I want as the foundation for my
web applications: simple, small and extensible. Middleware is
wonderful.

4. What do you think are the current weaknesses of web development in
Clojure? What could be improved?

Packaging and deployment seem to be the big problem at this point. I
have a lot experience with Java web applications so it is not that
difficult for me to create a war for deployment but I can see that
someone without a Java background would be completely confused by
this. I would love to see a tool that can package my app into a war
including a REPL server.

It would also be nice to have easily accessible, thorough,
documentation for Ring and Compojure with example code that goes
beyond the most simple cases. The community is young and so there is a
lack of shared knowledge about best practices when developing larger
applications.

One of the things that I like about Clojure web development (the
flexibility) also causes some concern. In my opinion, the best thing
about Rails is that any developer who knows Rails can go to any Rails
project and know where everything is. The conventions of Rails have
also contributed greatly to Rails' ability to grow and innovate. I
don't know what the solution is, just wanted to bring this up.

5. Anything else you want to comment on?

Many thanks to Mark and James for all of your work on Ring and
Compojure. Without these two libraries there wouldn't be much Clojure
web development going on. Also, thanks for keeping it simple and not
trying to do too much.

On Jun 23, 2:23 pm, James Reeves <weavejes...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Good point.  I have a todo waiting for me to figure out how to deliver  
some services that HTTP might not be cut out for.  It looks like v3.0  
servlets have a variety of enhancements in this area, so hopefully  
compojure/ring can stand on those shoulders.  I've no idea about the  
container support in that area though.

- Chas

On Jun 24, 2010, at 8:12 AM, Jimmy wrote:

We have written a currency trading app in Clojure in my company.
It has an embedded web server with a compojure app that provides an
administration interface.

2. Which libraries or frameworks are you using? Which versions?

Some relevant dependencies are:

                 [compojure "0.4.0-SNAPSHOT"]
                 [hiccup "0.2.1"]
                 [ring/ring-devel "0.2.0"]
                 [ring/ring-httpcore-adapter "0.2.0"]
                 [ring/ring-jetty-adapter "0.2.0"]
                 [ring/ring-servlet "0.2.0"]
                 [commons-fileupload/commons-fileupload "1.2.1"]]

3. What made you choose Clojure to develop web applications in? What
are the strengths of Clojure web development?

The entire app is Clojure and Compjure/Hiccup is very powerful so we
could build the web UI surprisingly quickly and in very little code.
The order of magnitude simplification reminds me of switching to Rails
and how it made everything prior to that look bloated and complex by
comparison. Compojure is to Rails what Rails is to ASP.NET.

4. What do you think are the current weaknesses of web development in
Clojure? What could be improved?

At the time we needed an easy way to bind configuration information to
the routes (we ended up wrapping each request with the configuration
data which is a bit cumbersome). A more explicit way would be to use
some kind of partial evaluation to bind the relevant settings to each
route.

5. Anything else you want to comment on?

Clojure and Compojure rock! Thanks for your work on the library :-)

1. Have you written, or are you writing, a web application that uses
Clojure? What does it do?

I am new to Clojure, I've ported over most of my code for an ad-hoc
application creator / with reporting and GIS integration.
I'm pretty much finished. I benchmarking speed.

2. Which libraries or frameworks are you using? Which versions?

My own custom frameworks. I use some contrib stuff.

3. What made you choose Clojure to develop web applications in? What
are the strengths of Clojure web development?

Strengths:
* Allows for creating succinct code to manage complex data.
* Access to many libraries (that are current and active).
* Not forced to include BS code for OO abstractions.

Weakness:

REPL errors. Seems fragile. If I hit an error, some errors corrupt
something under the hood,
ie. reloading the corrections doesn't help I have to close the REPL
then restart.
I'm familiar with REPLs - This is odd, but it's probably a JVM issue.

4. What do you think are the current weaknesses of web development in
Clojure? What could be improved?

Nothing big yet.

5. Anything else you want to comment on?

Only one week into Clojure I could be too green, but:

I would like some chaining to less the brackets.
i.e.

val1

Instead do this:

val1

Also, some of the function names don't make sense:
(def stuff (list 1 2 3 4 5))

(2 3 4 5) <---- this can be done with rest.

In my mind 'next' should:

(2 3)

etc etc......

Tim
On Jun 23, 3:23 pm, James Reeves <weavejes...@googlemail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Tim Robinson <tim.blacks...@gmail.com>wrote:

(get-in m [:key1 :item1 :sub1]) <------- YUM ;)

There are subtle but important differences between next and rest. You should
refer to their documentation.

Oh yeah, and web development with Clojure rocks:

[enlive "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"]
[net.cgrand/moustache "1.0.0-SNAPSHOT"]
[ring "0.2.3"]
[clj-time "0.1.0-SNAPSHOT"]
[com.twinql.clojure/clj-apache-http "2.1.0"]

At the moment I use nginx proxying to embedded Jetty. Works fine for me,
though I'm interested in hearing or reading documentation about what other
people are doing.

Hi,

Am 24.06.2010 um 21:12 schrieb Tim Robinson:

(-> stuff :key1 :item1 sub1)

next and rest are not the same. See http://clojure.org/lazy.

Sincerely
Meikel

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Daniel Gagnon <redalas...@gmail.com>wrote:

full-stack frameworks take time to evolve, and even then for many projects
they aren't a good fit since they impose a both narrow perspective and a
heavy cognitive load (massive APIs). In my experience development in Clojure
is just as fast as it is in Django. The main thing lacking is documentation
of the Clojure goodies that are currently available.

David

Thanks for both the replies.

(get-in m [:key1 :item1 :sub1]) <------- YUM ;)

(-> stuff :key1 :item1 sub1)

are better than what I've been doing!

Re: (next...)

I still like mine better, fortunately I can create my own functions,
but I was just highlighted that some of the function names are not
intuitive (to me).
Most of them are good.

Along this vein, I find the documentation is great, but a little hard
to navigate around.
Example to find a list of predicates requires hunting. Is there a
trick?  I know ' source' and 'find-doc', but I'm constantly
searching :)
This is a really niggly point since relatively speaking it's well
done.

As I said, I'm green. I'll get there soon I promise :)

Tim

On Jun 24, 1:48 pm, Meikel Brandmeyer <m...@kotka.de> wrote:

Recently started writing a webapp to display financial data, along the
lines of Google finance. Although somewhat less ambitious :).

Enlive, latest version. (Downloaded last week, don't know the version
number.) Aiming for mostly static HTML, JavaScript/JSON, a few
servlets and CouchDB.

* I've been doing Java/JSP web development for years, it is stable,
has tons of libraries and performs well, but is somewhat cumbersome do
develop in.
* I've been doing a little web development in Ruby/Ruby on Rails.
Development is much quicker and nicer, especially with HAML (a
templating library). The disadvantage is performance issues - Ruby is
lousy on numerical computation.
* I had just started looking into server-side JavaScript (like
Node.js). The primary disadvantage is that it is very new and
unproven, and there are few libraries available yet.
* I also considered Google's Go, and was aiming for a combination of
Go for the heavy lifting and Ruby for templates and display.

I think Clojure hits a sweet spot with better performance than purely
dynamic languages like Ruby and less verbosity than Java. For me that
means I can stick with one language, which is always less hassle than
using several.

I used Common Lisp several years back, and liked it a lot, so I
welcome a modern Lisp on a mature platform.

The REPL is very helpful in allowing quick iterations.

Libraries are not an issue with Java underneath, and the Clojure-
specific libraries seem to be in decent shape as well.
The Enlive template system is simply brilliant, I know of nothing even
close in conveniently separating HTML/design and application logic.

All in all, I can't think of a better option at the moment.

In general Clojure web development is in early stages yet, it can't
compete with the maturity of Java or Ruby frameworks. But that goes
with the territory, it's one of the costs of trying something new. And
I can always drop down to Java if needed.

Documentation is highly variable, I'm not entirely happy with having
to read source code to figure out an API.

For anything more specific, it's too early for me to tell, I can
probably say more about it in a month or two. Perhaps database
connections, although since there is plenty of DB support in Java,
writing a small Clojure wrapper seems manageable.

Not really. Keep up the good work :)

Hi,

Am 24.06.2010 um 22:07 schrieb Tim Robinson:

http://richhickey.github.com/clojure
http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib

Note the branch links on the top left.

Sincerely
Meikel

roman candle is a web app designed to let me control X10 plc
components from any web-capable device, using the X10 firecracker
controller. It's still in very early development, and hasn't been
given much attention lately. The intent is more to learn about clojure
rather than provide a distributable utility.

I've always been impressed by the Seaside framework, if only it
weren't tied to smalltalk. While there are now some C/C++ frameworks
along this line, there don't appear to be any available for Java, much
less clojure.  So I'm developing a small framework - bitchen' - in
parallel with roman candle. This is also more pedagogical than
production, in that it's not at all clear how to "port" the seaside
model from an OO language to a functional/immutable one like Clojure.
Should I decide that I'm going to get serious about clojure, this
might eventually become a full-fledged framework.

Wanting to provide a better answer to that question. Clojure itself is
interesting for it's LISPyness, concurrency facilities, and tight
integration with the JVM.

The tight integration with the JVM. I believe it's brought more pain
than happiness.

Not really.

    <mike
--
Mike Meyer <m...@mired.org>           http://www.mired.org/consulting.html
Independent Network/Unix/Perforce consultant, email for more information.

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On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 2:23 PM, James Reeves

I'm writing a framework, Cascade.

http://wiki.github.com/hlship/cascade/

So far, no dependencies ... but I may switch out some ad hoc logic for
stuff from Ring. Even I try not to reinvent the wheel every time!

I eventually hope to have Cascade handle parallel rendering of the
overall content across multiple threads, which makes sense when
rendering a single view requires multiple database queries that can
execute in parallel.

Partly Cascade exists as a way to learn Clojure fully, even if I don't
use Cascade professionally in the meantime.  For most projects, I'll
keep using Tapestry :-)

However, I do really like having the template be Clojure forms.

Unlike Compojure/Hiccup, the Cascade templates are rendered to an
intermediate DOM format that can be manipulated before final streaming
as text. There are advantages to this, learned from Tapestry, in terms
of coordinating individual rendering functions (what might be
components in Tapestry) ... especially w.r.t. the inclusion of
stylesheets and JavaScript libraries.  These are done declaratively in
Cascade.

For the most part, it was easier to get live reloading working in
Cascade than in Tapestry (in Tapestry, change a class, it is reloaded.
 In Cascade, change a namespace, it is reloaded). There are still some
issues, especially when there are errors in the reloaded namespace.

Clojure's native exception reporting is weak!  Cascade improves on
this in a couple of ways (some of which may have been picked up by
Compojure).

For what I've heard, I'm not the first person to implement an
application in Cascade, which floors me. It's really at the research
project level right now, but I do like what I've managed so far.

--
Howard M. Lewis Ship

Creator of Apache Tapestry

The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!

(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com