On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Tim Johnson <t...@johnsons-web.com> wrote: > I have evaluated clojure for the last couple of days, and it is both my own > professional decision and my recommendation to the professional organizations > that I belong to and report to that clojure is not ready for prime time.
Since I had a pretty smooth experience with Clojure right from the start, despite having little experience with Java, I'll try to describe what made it easy for me - maybe this will help someone trying to come up with improvements to the initial experience.
For me, having the "Programming Clojure" zip file available was great. Being able to just run bin/repl.bat (or .sh) whenever I wanted to try something out - even if it involved some of the additional libraries, such as the database connectivity stuff - was just great. Running it from an Emacs shell to get better history navigation etc. was also very nice (I never got as far as using Slime, even though I should probably try it sometimes). Well, with the minor caveat that Emacs and jline don't always play nice, so I removed jline from the .bat after wondering for a while why (+ 1 1) sent to the Clojure REPL inside Emacs never returns :-)
So maybe this is a way to make friendly environments for beginners. Maybe it's enough make more "Programming Clojure"-like environments, targeted towards beginners, beginners interested in web/database access, beginners with an interest in graphics, etc. Some script (or just instructions about how to do it) to update clojure.jar and the libs would be nice too. Care must be taken to keep things easy - the script should not try to compile anything, just attempt to download updated versions - trying to compile stuff would increase friction for newbies.
The great part about the "Programming Clojure" environment is not that it makes very hard things easy - but that it makes simple tasks very simple (no need to download and configure Compojure, it's just there). Just reducing friction seems to be a very good idea, things are more likely to be tried out when they are just a few keystrokes away.
As for the original poster, it's weird that he evaluates Clojure for just two days - and decides that although the technical principles it is based on are sound, the whole thing should be dismissed because of the first 'tactical' hurdle - installing. Maybe the guy is used to evaluating things by reading marketing texts? Maybe the CLASSPATH is really such a big problem? (this is hard to evaluate for someone used to the command line).
Nevertheless, it would be dangerous to ignore or dismiss his troubles, as they are probably quite common, so if anyone is thinking about how to improve the situation, maybe my opinion above of what made me happy with Clojure at the beginning is useful.
Oh, and "Programming Clojure" itself was great in making me see how to use Clojure in practice (I already knew it was great in theory, but the book made the practice-theory gap much smaller). So maybe the book (or the coming books) should be promoted more?
Bye,
> Before any of you think that I am a disgruntled newbie turned troll, know > the following:
> 1)As soon as I see the copy of this email in my "clojure mailbox", I will > unsubscribe from this mailing list, delete the clojure mailbox and I will not > be following up in any way.
Tim Johnson wrote: > I have evaluated clojure for the last couple of days, and it is both my own > professional decision and my recommendation to the professional organizations > that I belong to and report to that clojure is not ready for prime time.
[snip]
I agree that Tim was a bit over-reacting; it's so easy to dismiss his post as flame-bait and what not.
Nevertheless, I think getting started with Clojure is certainly not painless at the moment; and it's no fault of Clojure at all. There are many people who come to Clojure from non-Java backgrounds (like me) and don't know Emacs (unlike me). Those guys face a _lot_ of problems.
Using Clojure on Windows is also a bit problematic.
How do we solve it? Clear, up to date instructions for new comers.
I propose a website which will serve as the canonical repository for Clojure documentation.
It will have great documentation starting from getting started with Clojure to examples of different library functions.
We could use content from the Wikibooks project to get started, but we will need to organise and maintain the content a bit better.
I'm happy that this guy self eliminated himself from clojure community. But experience tells me not to be so sure. His kind tends to come back and unfortunately is very persistent.
If downloading couple of jar files and dropping them into the classpath is too much for him, then he is definitelly a java noob. Imagine him advising his clients never use java :))
I love clojure but I think it's unnecessary it doesn't ship with a simple clj and a clj.bat script out of the box, yeah it's easy to run it with jvm, but who want to type
every time they need a repl? sure, command completion, but come on? It's not exactly making life simple. (I know with 1.1 it's not clojure.lang.Repl any more but still lengthy and complicated, though now I use lein so I am happy).
Every time I've started up with a clojure project I've had to spend a few hours fiddling with the environment, not that I don't do that with other languages, but it would be nice with an officially sanctioned solution for setting up a sane environment.
This is definitely flamebait. However, he has a point. Perhaps we should make it clear on the Getting Started page that deploying Java is a prerequisite to deploying Clojure, and include links to resources on how to do that for the platform you are on. It's presently unclear to anyone without a Java background. However, everyone who has responded is right that developer experience notwithstanding, any sysadmin worth his/her salt will know how to install a JVM.
On Mar 21, 5:08 pm, Marek Kubica <ma...@xivilization.net> wrote:
> Tim Johnson <t...@johnsons-web.com> wrote: > > Here's how I installed the flash player on my system. > > 1)Downloaded install_flash_player_10_linux.tar.gz > > 2)Unzipped libflashplayer.so > > 3)Copied to /usr/lib/firefox-3.5.2/plugins/
> Here's how I installed the Clojure REPL on my system. > 1) Downloaded clojure-1.1.0.zip > 2) Unzipped clojure.jar > 3) Ran java -jar clojure.jar
> Hardly any different.
> FWIW, posting on a list and declaring immediately that one will > unsubscribe afterwards, not even reading replies is near-flamebait > quality.
To add the perspective of a true newbie to this dogpile, I'm going to have to say that the OP was just plain wrong. He made a major mistake -- wanting to compile clojure for himself on a platform that's not exactly friendly to Java development in the first place (Slackware, not Linux in general) -- and promptly blamed that on the wrong tool.
Are there some barriers to entry for a newbie? Hell, yes. I, for example, can't stand EMACS (insert the "great OS with crappy editor" gag here), so the EMACS-centric nature of the tools currently available is definitely a downer, as is the community assumption that anybody who'd want to use clojure is OBVIOUSLY an EMACS user. That's OK, though. On the Java side the assumption is that everybody uses Eclipse and I hate that more than I hate EMACS. This hasn't stopped me from using Java when I've needed to.
Another, slightly worse, problem is that Clojure is a moving target. I have the book *Programming Clojure* and have noted already that the language is changing out from underfoot. If I'm not careful I suspect that in a years' time what I "know" about Clojure will be out of date or quite possibly even flatly wrong. This is a more serious problem than "I don't get JAR files" like the OP had, especially since there doesn't seem to be a coherent resource anywhere describing the changes -- lots of work is being put into changes but not so much is being put into *communicating* those changes. (Insert the usual round of people utterly missing the point by linking to blog X here and blog Y here and blog Z here talking about the changes.)
Again I don't think this is a major problem, though. Clojure is a young language and at this early stage in its development it's inevitable that there will be large changes (as theory hits the real world). Further, anybody who's been in the industry for as long as the OP has claimed to have been knows full well that documentation *always* lags behind development. I think it telling that he's pointing to mature (and, in the case of Rebol, beyond end-of-life) products to show how documentation "should be done". It indicates to me that he's not got a lot of experience with new programming environments.
TL;DR summary: this newbie thinks that yes, there are a few barriers to entry for new Clojure users but they're nowhere near as serious as the OP claims they are and are not even unusually bad for what is normal in this industry.
-- "Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot." --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the "don't be evil" mantra.
> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 10:20 PM, Luc Préfontaine <lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca > > wrote: > Yes we could have a complete package to run Clojure from the shell > command line but how far could someone go with this > to build a workable system without an IDE ?
> [...]
> Comments anyone ?
> I can get pretty far writing an application in Python with nothing > more than good command line support and syntax highlighting in any > text editor. Anything extra like completions, refactoring, etc, are > just nice-to-haves. I don't see why an IDE is required for writing > workable Clojure apps.
+1
I use a Mac with MacPorts. Pulled down clojure and clojure-contrib ports. Only thing I had to do (and this was -not- easy to figure out), was create a .clojure file that pointed to the contrib jar. But that is how the clj wrapper in the clojure port works. I suppose I could also muck around with my class path, or do other things...
There is a high Java tax on using clojure for those of us coming from non-Java languages. I'm willing to accept that I need to read the Java docs on how strings, or, whatever, work.
But getting clojure itself set up? Please, do -not- make "pre-existing familiarity with an IDE" a prerequisite. There are enough learning curves as it is.
-Doug
P.S. I used Emacs back when Gosling was writing his version of it at CMU, before Java even existed, and now I use (g)vim. It's nice that there are other IDEs working with clojure, but not so nice to assume non-Java users are using some VisualStudio or other heavy-weight IDE.
> Every time I've started up with a clojure project I've had to spend a few > hours fiddling with the environment, not that I don't do that with other > languages, but it would be nice with an officially sanctioned solution for > setting up a sane environment.
Even better, an officially sanctioned solution expressed both as documentation, and as a collection of shell scripts for all the major platforms.
(As another non-java-familiar clojure adoptee, classpaths were definitely a hurdle)
On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 16:48 +0530, Martin DeMello wrote: > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Joel Westerberg > <joel.westerb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Every time I've started up with a clojure project I've had to spend a few > > hours fiddling with the environment, not that I don't do that with other > > languages, but it would be nice with an officially sanctioned solution for > > setting up a sane environment.
> Even better, an officially sanctioned solution expressed both as > documentation, and as a collection of shell scripts for all the major > platforms.
> (As another non-java-familiar clojure adoptee, classpaths were > definitely a hurdle)
Haven't tried setting it up on windows, but an msi that hid the java details would be a nice plus, provided hat the abstraction never leaked (i.e. that you could do all the basic clojure operations without having to stop and edit or bypass the scripts).
<lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca> wrote: > Is my first impression right or wrong ?
> Is Clojure harder to setup from Windows for beginners ?
> Would an installer (.msi) help by hiding Java related details and providing > some basic scripts to run it ?
> Luc P.
> On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 16:48 +0530, Martin DeMello wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Joel Westerberg > <joel.westerb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Every time I've started up with a clojure project I've had to spend a few >> hours fiddling with the environment, not that I don't do that with other >> languages, but it would be nice with an officially sanctioned solution for >> setting up a sane environment.
> Even better, an officially sanctioned solution expressed both as > documentation, and as a collection of shell scripts for all the major > platforms.
> (As another non-java-familiar clojure adoptee, classpaths were > definitely a hurdle)
> martin
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I use OS X and had only minor trouble getting Clojure to run the first time. But even minor trouble still has a disproportionate effect on someone's first impression. The out-of-box experience matters for everything and programming languages are no exception. Eclipse is a good example of a Java developer-oriented application with a good out-of-box experience on all platforms. Shell scripts for UNIX and installers for Windows and OS X would go a long way towards improving that for Clojure.
<lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca> wrote: > Is my first impression right or wrong ?
> Is Clojure harder to setup from Windows for beginners ?
> Would an installer (.msi) help by hiding Java related details and providing > some basic scripts to run it ?
> Luc P.
> On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 16:48 +0530, Martin DeMello wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Joel Westerberg > <joel.westerb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Every time I've started up with a clojure project I've had to spend a few >> hours fiddling with the environment, not that I don't do that with other >> languages, but it would be nice with an officially sanctioned solution for >> setting up a sane environment.
> Even better, an officially sanctioned solution expressed both as > documentation, and as a collection of shell scripts for all the major > platforms.
> (As another non-java-familiar clojure adoptee, classpaths were > definitely a hurdle)
> martin
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your > first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words > "REMOVE ME" as the subject.
I'd agree with that, I've setup Clojure on Linux, Mac and Windows and I found Windows the most difficult. Granted, I virtually never use Windows, but it felt like I was fighting it by being at the command line, but had no choice but to be there.
> Is Clojure harder to setup from Windows for beginners ?
> Would an installer (.msi) help by hiding Java related details and providing some basic scripts to run it ?
> Luc P.
> On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 16:48 +0530, Martin DeMello wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Joel Westerberg >> <joel.westerb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Every time I've started up with a clojure project I've had to spend a few >> > hours fiddling with the environment, not that I don't do that with other >> > languages, but it would be nice with an officially sanctioned solution for >> > setting up a sane environment.
>> Even better, an officially sanctioned solution expressed both as >> documentation, and as a collection of shell scripts for all the major >> platforms.
>> (As another non-java-familiar clojure adoptee, classpaths were >> definitely a hurdle)
>> martin
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
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I am not making an IDE a pre-requisite for learning purposes.
The original poster was talking about getting Clojure usable by corporations... he was not talking about academic learning. Too bad he was not aware that there are other IDEs available other than the M..ft thing. Not even looking at the documented alternatives before saying anything is unprofessional at best in this regard.
You can still code 30000 lines+ systems without an IDE (IDE can be as simple as VIM or this other popular text editor on MacOSX) but this approach has definitively limits. Just in case you have doubts I did a lot of these in the past before even VIM like editors became the norm. I would not revert back to these times.
If some are saying they can do a lot without an IDE, fine, but that's pointless here, it seems that the main problem is the first contact with Clojure. It looks like it's rough and there's a need for some smoothness there. The main goal being to hide the Java gears as much as possible. This is the feedback I was trying to get. If .NET gears where not hidden on first contact, it would appear has bad as the JVM. With .NET, it's later in the learning process that this strikes you :)) At first it looks great (all these windows, ....).
I was asking for some requirements... can we start here ?
a) A need for a Windows based installer
b) Startup scripts to hide java machinery, probably pre-tuned to hide all these horrible Java flags
c) Update mode to keep the Clojure run time up to date with whatever version you may want (1.0, 1.1, 1.2, nightly build, ...)
d) a) and c) Use available public repositories to get components.
e) A need for installers on other platforms ? U*X, MacOs X ? Any value there ?
Starting Clojure from command line on Windows is this satisfactory for everyone ? Maybe a helper to start CMD in a folder from a context menu would be of some help ?
On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 00:33 -0400, Douglas Philips wrote: > On 2010 Mar 21, at 11:52 PM, Cosmin Stejerean wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 10:20 PM, Luc Préfontaine <lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca > > > wrote: > > Yes we could have a complete package to run Clojure from the shell > > command line but how far could someone go with this > > to build a workable system without an IDE ?
> > [...]
> > Comments anyone ?
> > I can get pretty far writing an application in Python with nothing > > more than good command line support and syntax highlighting in any > > text editor. Anything extra like completions, refactoring, etc, are > > just nice-to-haves. I don't see why an IDE is required for writing > > workable Clojure apps.
> +1
> I use a Mac with MacPorts. Pulled down clojure and clojure-contrib > ports. > Only thing I had to do (and this was -not- easy to figure out), was > create a .clojure file that pointed > to the contrib jar. But that is how the clj wrapper in the clojure > port works. I suppose I could also > muck around with my class path, or do other things...
> There is a high Java tax on using clojure for those of us coming from > non-Java languages. > I'm willing to accept that I need to read the Java docs on how > strings, or, whatever, work.
> But getting clojure itself set up? Please, do -not- make "pre-existing > familiarity with an IDE" a prerequisite. There are enough learning > curves as it is.
> -Doug
> P.S. I used Emacs back when Gosling was writing his version of it at > CMU, before Java even existed, and now I use (g)vim. It's nice that > there are other IDEs working with clojure, but not so nice to assume > non-Java users are using some VisualStudio or other heavy-weight IDE.
On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Per Vognsen <per.vogn...@gmail.com> wrote: > good example of a Java developer-oriented application with a good > out-of-box experience on all platforms. Shell scripts for UNIX and > installers for Windows and OS X would go a long way towards improving > that for Clojure.
In my opinion, atleast in the GNU/Linux world, it should be left to distributors to do this job. On Debian for instance, one just need to do `apt-get install clojure clojure-contrib' to get clojure installed.
Of course, one can provide instructions on how to build by oneself.
<vu3...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Per Vognsen <per.vogn...@gmail.com> wrote: >> good example of a Java developer-oriented application with a good >> out-of-box experience on all platforms. Shell scripts for UNIX and >> installers for Windows and OS X would go a long way towards improving >> that for Clojure.
> In my opinion, atleast in the GNU/Linux world, it should be left to > distributors to do this job. On Debian for instance, one just need to > do `apt-get install clojure clojure-contrib' to get clojure installed.
> Of course, one can provide instructions on how to build by oneself.
> -- > Ramakrishnan
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
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On Mon 22/03/10 11:31 , "LucPréfontaine" lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca sent:
> Is my first impression right or wrong ? > Is Clojure harder to setup from Windows for beginners ? > Would an installer (.msi) help by hiding Java related details and > providing some basic scripts to run it ?
I think there are likely two camps: Java users seeing Clojure as a library that they can integrate with their existing projects; and non-Java users, wanting something with an installation experience something like Python.
For Java users, I think a zip with a jar file in it is great, and they'll likely know what to do with it. I'd be a bit startled to find a Java library bundled in a .msi installer, it would make Clojure seem foreign and invasive.
I don't think an msi would really add much at all, other than potentially making it harder to install in some environments. A zip file with working startup scripts would be enough I think? I'd like to see the documentation bundled too, so that you have a version of the documentation that corresponds to the version of clojure that you have downloaded.
Perhaps the zip file could have a lib directory that the scripts pull in all jar files from, to make adding things like database drivers and contrib to the environemnt easier?
Perhaps how Ant aranges its bin directory and lib folder is a good model to borrow from?
> In my opinion, atleast in the GNU/Linux world, it should be left to > distributors to do this job. On Debian for instance, one just need to > do `apt-get install clojure clojure-contrib' to get clojure installed.
It's equally simple on the Mac with Homebrew [1]:
$ brew install clojure clojure-contrib
MacPorts is probably along the same lines. Then there's also my little ClojureX [2] project, where I'd really like some more feedback by Windows users. Maybe some of the people in this thread who are dissatisfied with Clojure on Windows can give it a try?
Luc, Windows users should be good to go. Clojurebox, Enclojure & CCW are ready for use for any Java dev with some experience. As for the installation process, pick you poison:
> Is Clojure harder to setup from Windows for beginners ?
> Would an installer (.msi) help by hiding Java related details and > providing some basic scripts to run it ?
> Luc P.
> On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 16:48 +0530, Martin DeMello wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Joel Westerberg > > <joel.westerb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Every time I've started up with a clojure project I've had to spend a few > > > hours fiddling with the environment, not that I don't do that with other > > > languages, but it would be nice with an officially sanctioned solution for > > > setting up a sane environment.
> > Even better, an officially sanctioned solution expressed both as > > documentation, and as a collection of shell scripts for all the major > > platforms.
> > (As another non-java-familiar clojure adoptee, classpaths were > > definitely a hurdle)
FWIW Michael it was your ClojureX was what got me going best in the beginning, but on Mac OS X, not Windows. Getting a minimal clojure-aware editing setup was a little harder -- the emacs-setup stuff you had in an earlier version of ClojureX got me started there too, but I had to do some other stuff later to get slime working... e.g. manually copying clojure.jar and clojure-contrib.jar to my .emacs.
It's kind of funny to see the range of reactions to the OP's post. This stuff really is very simple once you know how to do it, but it's not necessarily simple to people coming from different backgrounds.
>> In my opinion, atleast in the GNU/Linux world, it should be left to >> distributors to do this job. On Debian for instance, one just need to >> do `apt-get install clojure clojure-contrib' to get clojure installed.
> It's equally simple on the Mac with Homebrew [1]:
> $ brew install clojure clojure-contrib
> MacPorts is probably along the same lines. Then there's also my little > ClojureX [2] project, where I'd really like some more feedback by > Windows users. Maybe some of the people in this thread who are > dissatisfied with Clojure on Windows can give it a try?
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Clojure" group. > To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com > Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > clojure+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words "REMOVE ME" as the subject.
-- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438
think about the difference between putting flash or python on a machine compared to clojure. there's more of a system-level "path" feel to those things (even though each user can have their own environment). I mean, you can add a clj script to your path and get the same effect, but that's what's different. He's not talking about someone messing around with a language ... he's talking about trying to imagine that the language is now part of the system. Again, Fantom sort of has this feel. Part of the DEFAULT instructions is to mess with your path and get things going. Check out the Fantom website. Sooooooooo simple and straight forward and inviting.
On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Seth <seth.schroe...@gmail.com> wrote: > I hate to feed trolls, but this is a solid example of passive- > aggresive behavior. Also, ignoring plausible sounding, spell-checked > diatribes is bad.
> The installation of one or two jar files from a Maven repository is > par for the JVM course. Deployment? Works on any reasonable JVM out > there. Could the install/deploy behavior be improved? Sure, but try > targeting something less ubiquitous than "ant". Slackware more modern > than Ubuntu??
> Contrasting Clojure with Flash on Ubuntu really takes the cake. Flash > has never had a good reputation outside of Windows. Also, either the > poster is running as root (!) or has somehow forgotten a very > important su/sudo between steps 2 and 3. Either way, no sysadmin has > to be convinced.
> Wresting with pigs is bad because you get dirty and the pig likes it.
> On Mar 21, 2:42 pm, Tim Johnson <t...@johnsons-web.com> wrote: > > I have evaluated clojure for the last couple of days, and it is both my > own > > professional decision and my recommendation to the professional > organizations > > that I belong to and report to that clojure is not ready for prime time.
> > Before any of you think that I am a disgruntled newbie turned troll, know > > the following:
> > 1)As soon as I see the copy of this email in my "clojure mailbox", I will > > unsubscribe from this mailing list, delete the clojure mailbox and I will > not > > be following up in any way.
> > 2)In as much as clojure is a new programming language with a small but > > enthusiastic user base and a brilliant developer I confess to a certain > deja vu > > here. That would be rebol 10 years ago. Brilliantly conceived, > brilliantly > > designed by one of the best programmers on the planet. Never went > anywhere. > > I've used rebol for 10 years steadily and made a lot of money with it, > but > > there is almost 0 demand for rebol programmers out there.
> > 3)Although I may be a noob with it comes to clojure and even more of a > noob > > when it comes to java, I have been a professional analyst and programmer > for 21 > > years and own my own company. Many seasoned programmers, analysts and > system > > adminstrators look at a new system as something to "employ". As a front > end for > > java, I do not consider clojure to be "employable".
> > I think that clojure is brilliantly conceived and it is clear from what I > have > > read of Rich Hickey's words that his vision is right in the same channel > with > > mine, but that is not the problem. The fact that I respect the developer > and > > the product is the reason that I have taken this time to write this > email.
> > The reason I choose NOT to employ clojure can be summed up in three > words. > > ------------------- > > Install and deploy. > > -------------------
> > I consider this to be clojure's fatal weakness. Certainly I can get > clojure up > > and running, but "selling" clojure to a sysadmin is going to be a problem > at > > this time. There was a time when PHP was NOT present on virtually all > webservers. > > PHP got it's "foot in the door" because it was very easy to deploy.
> > Consider the two threads that I started up - one is titled "Web > programming in > > Clojure" - there's the good stuff. Generous reponse, lots of input.
> > The other one is titled "Installation issues on slack 13.0 (ant?)". This > where > > it all falls apart.
> > Sadly, this is like the first impression and we all know how lasting > first > > impressions are. In fact as you can see, the thread ended with no > resolution. > > I'm sorry to pick on "steve" but his response is a case study
> > * Steve <stephen.a.lind...@gmail.com> [100320 05:24]:
> > Sadly inadequate! Check out the comparable kawa resources and > instructions for > > a better example.
> > > If you do need ant then a more modern distro will make your life much > > > easier (eg. apt-get install ant).
> > Again, so inadequate. I also use ubuntu. Have for years. apt-get is a > thing > > of beauty. When it works. And bye the way, slackware is much more modern > > when it comes to up-to-date build tools. So know I not only have to > "sell" > > clojure to the sysadmins, I have to sell them ubuntu too? Good luck with > > that!
> > Here's how I installed the flash player on my system. > > 1)Downloaded install_flash_player_10_linux.tar.gz > > 2)Unzipped libflashplayer.so > > 3)Copied to /usr/lib/firefox-3.5.2/plugins/
> > Make clojure "install and deployment" like the example above and more of > us will > > EMPLOY clojure and 10 years from now there WILL be a market for clojure > > programmers.
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On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 1:26 AM, cej38 <junkerme...@gmail.com> wrote: > I am a physicist by training and practice, this means that I am an > expert on Fortran 95. To say my exposure to Java is minimal would be > generous. And until last year when I heard about Clojure from a > friend, I thought LISP was a speech impediment.
> Setting up Clojure was a MAJOR problem for me, what with getting > path's and classpaths right. (Figuring out what a classpath is was a > challenge.) If it wasn't for the very patient help of a CS friend of > mine, I would not have figured it out.
> I think the documentation assumes that the user is comfortable with > Java. I feel like I am being asked to learn Java so that I can learn > Clojure.
Amen! I can understand why this was the initial road to get functionality going quickly, but I hope this goes away.
> I am now an avid Clojure user, but there really does need to be better > descriptions of how to set Clojure up on the website.
> On Mar 21, 4:37 pm, Quzanti <quza...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Reading his post I got the impression he was a bit of an egocentric (a > > bit more information about himself than was relevant), those sorts > > tend to overreact.
> > However I can imagine the whole just bung the jar file on your > > classpath thing wouldn't make much sense for a java newbie. It may > > highlight the need for some special 'getting started' documentation > > for Lisp programmers who have never used java, which I understand to > > be one target audience of clojure.
> > > I don't understand the complaints about installing Clojure. As far as I > know > > > there's nothing required to 'install' Clojure beyond downloading the > > > clojure.jar, other than I guess having a working Java installation.
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I have to say that while I'm sorry that we didn't snag the original poster as a Clojure user, he has actually done us a real favor. The most important customer is the pissed off customer who tells you why he is pissed off. You don't have to take everything he says to heart, but it is always worth listening to the one that got away.
As someone who was a raw clojure beginner not all that long ago, a beginner with a lot of Java experience, I do think that we have a problem with the 'out of the box' experience. My first bit of evidence is the fact that the issue seems to come up fairly often. When you have a persistent customer complaint, you have to ask yourself, is the problem with the customer? In fact, before a recent intro-to-clojure talk I went ahead and built my own little 'get you going' project just to make it easier for the raw beginner: http://github.com/russolsen/dejour/downloads
While dejour is just a quick and dirty thing that I put together in a few hours, I think that it captures what we need: a single zip/tar/jar file that you can download, unpack and run. No install, no git, no nothing. Just download, unpack and run a simple script. As someone else mentioned, JRuby does a really good job of this. We can at least as good as JRuby.
How far can you get with just a repl and no ide? Perhaps just far enough to decide that this clojure thing is worth more time. Perhaps more: There is nothing in clojure that requires an ide any more than python or ruby or perl.
It's a complicated world out there, full of very smart people with varying backgrounds. Some of them know lisp but not java. Some know java but no lisp. Some know neither but are smart nevertheless and are looking for a better language. Many of the engineers that I work with will run screaming from the room at the sight of a shell/batch script I think we want them all. We want every one of them to use clojure.
Russ
On Mar 22, 1:26 am, cej38 <junkerme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am a physicist by training and practice, this means that I am an > expert on Fortran 95. To say my exposure to Java is minimal would be > generous. And until last year when I heard about Clojure from a > friend, I thought LISP was a speech impediment.
> Setting up Clojure was a MAJOR problem for me, what with getting > path's and classpaths right. (Figuring out what a classpath is was a > challenge.) If it wasn't for the very patient help of a CS friend of > mine, I would not have figured it out.
> I think the documentation assumes that the user is comfortable with > Java. I feel like I am being asked to learn Java so that I can learn > Clojure.
> I am now an avid Clojure user, but there really does need to be better > descriptions of how to set Clojure up on the website.
> On Mar 21, 4:37 pm, Quzanti <quza...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Reading his post I got the impression he was a bit of an egocentric (a > > bit more information about himself than was relevant), those sorts > > tend to overreact.
> > However I can imagine the whole just bung the jar file on your > > classpath thing wouldn't make much sense for a java newbie. It may > > highlight the need for some special 'getting started' documentation > > for Lisp programmers who have never used java, which I understand to > > be one target audience of clojure.
> > > I don't understand the complaints about installing Clojure. As far as I know > > > there's nothing required to 'install' Clojure beyond downloading the > > > clojure.jar, other than I guess having a working Java installation.
I looked at these videos and they are a very good starting point. Then do we have a communication problem getting these things known ? Are these videos listed on the "Getting started" page ?
What about using contrib ? That would be the first "classpath" problem a newcomer would face.
It looks to me that we have all the answers but not in a single spot.
On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 06:44 -0700, Sean Devlin wrote: > Luc, > Windows users should be good to go. Clojurebox, Enclojure & CCW are > ready for use for any Java dev with some experience. As for the > installation process, pick you poison:
> On Mar 22, 7:31 am, Luc Préfontaine <lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca> > wrote: > > Is my first impression right or wrong ?
> > Is Clojure harder to setup from Windows for beginners ?
> > Would an installer (.msi) help by hiding Java related details and > > providing some basic scripts to run it ?
> > Luc P.
> > On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 16:48 +0530, Martin DeMello wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Joel Westerberg > > > <joel.westerb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Every time I've started up with a clojure project I've had to spend a few > > > > hours fiddling with the environment, not that I don't do that with other > > > > languages, but it would be nice with an officially sanctioned solution for > > > > setting up a sane environment.
> > > Even better, an officially sanctioned solution expressed both as > > > documentation, and as a collection of shell scripts for all the major > > > platforms.
> > > (As another non-java-familiar clojure adoptee, classpaths were > > > definitely a hurdle)
Yes, yes and yes: The videos are great, and all of the information is out there, but it was hard for me to find as I first waded in. And getting contrib to work was one of my first problems. BTW I'd also like to reinforce that although full IDEs aren't necessary to begin -- and besides they're often a matter of taste -- something *slightly* beyond a bare REPL would be a big help for beginners. In particular an editor with language-aware indenting and parentheses/bracket matching is one thing that can make a big difference (and it'd be nice if getting this didn't require too many steps).
One other beginner issue that hasn't been mentioned is the fuzzy line between Clojure and Java in the documentation, which is of course one of Clojure's strengths via interop, and therefore probably always going to be a little messy. But coming from a life in which CLtL2 was all I needed for a reference (and similar things in other languages) I was initially somewhat confused when basic-seeming things weren't in the Clojure docs, and then were or weren't in the contrib docs, and then I finally realized that I have to always look at both of those and then everything that Java provides and quite reasonably hasn't been reimplemented in Clojure. I'm not saying any of those design decisions is bad (on the contrary), but the diffuseness of some of the documentation can be confusing to newcomers, especially those not coming from Java. I could imagine a sort of meta-index to all of this that would be really helpful -- but of course it would also be a lot of work.
-Lee
On Mar 22, 2010, at 12:13 PM, Luc Préfontaine wrote:
> I looked at these videos and they are a very good starting point. > Then do we have a communication problem getting these things known ? > Are these videos listed on the "Getting started" page ?
> What about using contrib ? That would be the first "classpath" problem a newcomer would face.
> It looks to me that we have all the answers but not in a single spot.
> Luc P.
> On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 06:44 -0700, Sean Devlin wrote: >> Luc, >> Windows users should be good to go. Clojurebox, Enclojure & CCW are >> ready for use for any Java dev with some experience. As for the >> installation process, pick you poison:
>> On Mar 22, 7:31 am, Luc Préfontaine <lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca> >> wrote: >> > Is my first impression right or wrong ?
>> > Is Clojure harder to setup from Windows for beginners ?
>> > Would an installer (.msi) help by hiding Java related details and >> > providing some basic scripts to run it ?
>> > Luc P.
>> > On Mon, 2010-03-22 at 16:48 +0530, Martin DeMello wrote: >> > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Joel Westerberg >> > > <joel.westerb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > Every time I've started up with a clojure project I've had to spend a few >> > > > hours fiddling with the environment, not that I don't do that with other >> > > > languages, but it would be nice with an officially sanctioned solution for >> > > > setting up a sane environment.
>> > > Even better, an officially sanctioned solution expressed both as >> > > documentation, and as a collection of shell scripts for all the major >> > > platforms.
>> > > (As another non-java-familiar clojure adoptee, classpaths were >> > > definitely a hurdle)
>> > > martin
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-- Lee Spector, Professor of Computer Science School of Cognitive Science, Hampshire College 893 West Street, Amherst, MA 01002-3359 lspec...@hampshire.edu, http://hampshire.edu/lspector/ Phone: 413-559-5352, Fax: 413-559-5438
