I am trying to teach Moses to do head down. If I wait for head down and then click, he does a nodding dog. If I wait for him to keep his head down longer then he nodds his head even more.

Here is a video to show you what I mean. It is quite funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Fbr7r9uQo

If lure I cannot fade it. He goes into a frenzy if I use food in my hand.

So I want to teach him to put his nose on my fingers and leave them there or to target another object and get the longer duration, how do I do it?

Think of the whole movement cycle of the behavior you want the dog to do.
Even if what you'll end up seeing is a still behavior there is movement to
get into that position and a certain position he'll be in when you consider
it a completed behavior.  He has to get into that position, and the behavior
includes not just the head down, but the whole motion of getting into the
head down position, and holding it for however long you determine is
"correct".  

The behavior starts in the instant *before* the dog begins to perform the
behavior, when his body is in the right position to move into the behavior
you're cuing.  First, obviously, you have to decide what constitutes the
whole movement cycle.

What I would do is back up in your training and shape up tiny increments of
the movement cycle.  First a wee tiny dip of the head.  Click WHILE he's
moving since he's not in position yet.  Gradually work up to clicking
farther along in the movement cycle until you can withhold your click for X
duration of holding his head down and still.

Of course you won't click head bobbing, but if the bobbing happens after the
click you're just going to have to deal with it.  One thing you could do is
train on a tail-end of the behavior, such as returning to a head up
position.  That way you can circumvent the bobbing.  

Kellie

Animal Behavior Answers

www.AnimalBehaviorAnswers.com <http://www.animalbehavioranswers.com/>

  _____  

From: CLICK-L@googlegroups.com [mailto:CLICK-L@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Jules
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 8:42 PM
To: CLICK-L@googlegroups.com
Subject: [CLICK-L] How do you teach duration on a target

I am trying to teach Moses to do head down. If I wait for head down and then
click, he does a nodding dog. If I wait for him to keep his head down longer
then he nodds his head even more.

Here is a video to show you what I mean. It is quite funny.
 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Fbr7r9uQo>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Fbr7r9uQo

If lure I cannot fade it. He goes into a frenzy if I use food in my hand.

So I want to teach him to put his nose on my fingers and leave them there or
to target another object and get the longer duration, how do I do it?

Sue Ailsby suggests clicking the 2nd movement ...ie. with eye  
contact, when the dog keeps shifting his gaze away from your eyes  
back to the food in your hand, click the 2nd or 3rd movement in the  
correct direction.  The "law of lazy dogs" says it's too much work to  
keep repeating a behavior without a payoff so the dog slows down and  
adds duration on his own.  Also, the sound was not real clear on the  
video, but I'm sure I heard one click as the dog was raising his  
head.  He's obviously VERY eager to work so maybe a lower value food  
reward (if one exists) would slow him down some.
Teach him to put his chin on your hand, or a plastic lid and then use  
that to move toward the head down behavior.   I think Kellie is also  
right when she says go back to clicking tiny movement toward the  
ground until he actually puts his head all they way down.   I'm  
assuming this behavior is not named yet...if it is discontinue all  
verbal cues and just click for movements in the direction you want.  
until he's getting it and then rename it.  I call this position  
settle.    Also, I work close to the dog so I can place treats on the  
floor right under his chin after I click.  As Bob Bailey says  "feed  
for position."   Sue Ailsby's website is www.dragonflyllama.com and  
she has written a training book and put it out for all to use as they  
see fit.  I recommend it highly.
Goog luck.
Let us know how Moses does.
Ina Davis

On Sep 2, 2006, at 8:41 PM, Jules wrote:

Please be sure to take discussions over to the new location at Click-L
Animal Behavior And Training on Yahoo Groups.  

Join by sending an email to Click-L_ABAT-Subscr...@yahoogroups.com.

Kellie

Animal Behavior Answers

www.AnimalBehaviorAnswers.com <http://www.animalbehavioranswers.com/>

  _____  

From: CLICK-L@googlegroups.com [mailto:CLICK-L@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Ina Davis
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 1:44 AM
To: CLICK-L@googlegroups.com
Subject: [CLICK-L] Re: How do you teach duration on a target

Sue Ailsby suggests clicking the 2nd movement ...ie. with eye contact, when
the dog keeps shifting his gaze away from your eyes back to the food in your
hand, click the 2nd or 3rd movement in the correct direction.  The "law of
lazy dogs" says it's too much work to keep repeating a behavior without a
payoff so the dog slows down and adds duration on his own.  Also, the sound
was not real clear on the video, but I'm sure I heard one click as the dog
was raising his head.  He's obviously VERY eager to work so maybe a lower
value food reward (if one exists) would slow him down some.
Teach him to put his chin on your hand, or a plastic lid and then use that
to move toward the head down behavior.   I think Kellie is also right when
she says go back to clicking tiny movement toward the ground until he
actually puts his head all they way down.   I'm assuming this behavior is
not named yet...if it is discontinue all verbal cues and just click for
movements in the direction you want. until he's getting it and then rename
it.  I call this position settle.    Also, I work close to the dog so I can
place treats on the floor right under his chin after I click.  As Bob Bailey
says  "feed for position."   Sue Ailsby's website is www.dragonflyllama.com
and she has written a training book and put it out for all to use as they
see fit.  I recommend it highly.
Goog luck.
Let us know how Moses does.
Ina Davis

On Sep 2, 2006, at 8:41 PM, Jules wrote:

I am trying to teach Moses to do head down. If I wait for head down and then
click, he does a nodding dog. If I wait for him to keep his head down longer
then he nodds his head even more.

Here is a video to show you what I mean. It is quite funny.
 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Fbr7r9uQo>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Fbr7r9uQo

If lure I cannot fade it. He goes into a frenzy if I use food in my hand.

So I want to teach him to put his nose on my fingers and leave them there or
to target another object and get the longer duration, how do I do it?