line-spacing and entry-spacing

[skornblith]

This is a little ambiguous in the schema, but, at least as Zotero
interprets the entry-spacing property, it's the number of extra
newlines between entries in the bibliography, with a single newline
always implied. Thus, entry-spacing="0" would give

Doe, Jane. Entry 1.
Doe, Jane. Entry 2.

Whereas entry-spacing="1" (the default) would give

Doe, Jane. Entry 1.

Doe, Jane. Entry 2.

At the moment, citeproc-js isn't passing through entry-spacing="0" (it
assumes the attribute isn't defined and thus gives entryspacing:1).
The fix should be easy, unless you think we're better off changing the
convention, in which case I can refer this discussion to xbib.

Thanks,
Simon

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 1:33 PM, skornblith <si...@simonster.com> wrote:
> This is a little ambiguous in the schema, but, at least as Zotero
> interprets the entry-spacing property, it's the number of extra

newlines between entries in the bibliography ...

While it's true the spec/shema is vague (and we might want to rectify
that), this ("number of newlines") is definitely not how I understand
it. I think of it as more of a bottom-margin measurement on a list
item (or paragraph). Would it be wrong to say that the unit is
something akin to an em?

Still wish we could have the processor set this in the word-processor style.

Bruce

[skornblith]

On Mar 28, 10:51 am, "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 1:33 PM, skornblith <si...@simonster.com> wrote:
> > This is a little ambiguous in the schema, but, at least as Zotero
> > interprets the entry-spacing property, it's the number of extra
>
> newlines between entries in the bibliography ...
>
> While it's true the spec/shema is vague (and we might want to rectify
> that), this ("number of newlines") is definitely not how I understand
> it. I think of it as more of a bottom-margin measurement on a list
> item (or paragraph). Would it be wrong to say that the unit is
> something akin to an em?

Yes, this is another way of thinking about it, and this is how I was
planning to format it in the word processor (the unit is probably
around 1.1 em).

> Still wish we could have the processor set this in the word-processor style.

This is planned for 2.1.

Simon

[Frank Bennett]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 3:06 AM, skornblith <si...@simonster.com> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 10:51 am, "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 1:33 PM, skornblith <si...@simonster.com> wrote:
>> > This is a little ambiguous in the schema, but, at least as Zotero
>> > interprets the entry-spacing property, it's the number of extra
>>
>> newlines between entries in the bibliography ...
>>
>> While it's true the spec/shema is vague (and we might want to rectify
>> that), this ("number of newlines") is definitely not how I understand
>> it. I think of it as more of a bottom-margin measurement on a list
>> item (or paragraph). Would it be wrong to say that the unit is
>> something akin to an em?
>
> Yes, this is another way of thinking about it, and this is how I was
> planning to format it in the word processor (the unit is probably
> around 1.1 em).

I probably misinterpreted the schema. I've pushed a change to set the
default value for linespacing and entryspacing to 0 in the source.

Frank

>
>> Still wish we could have the processor set this in the word-processor style.
>
> This is planned for 2.1.
>
> Simon
>

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[skornblith]

Sorry, I don't think I was entirely clear. The defaults should be 1,
but entry-spacing can be explicitly set to 0 (as in Chicago and IEEE).
Currently, if entry-spacing is set to 0 in the style,
makeBibliography() gives entryspacing:1 (although non-zero values are
properly passed through). I don't think there's really a problem with
line-spacing, since there's no legitimate reason to set it to 0.

Simon

[Frank Bennett]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 7:44 AM, skornblith <si...@simonster.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I don't think I was entirely clear. The defaults should be 1,
> but entry-spacing can be explicitly set to 0 (as in Chicago and IEEE).
> Currently, if entry-spacing is set to 0 in the style,
> makeBibliography() gives entryspacing:1 (although non-zero values are
> properly passed through). I don't think there's really a problem with
> line-spacing, since there's no legitimate reason to set it to 0.

Aha. Okay, I'll fix this, and file a checkin soon.

Frank

[Frank Bennett]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Frank Bennett <bierc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 7:44 AM, skornblith <si...@simonster.com> wrote:
>> Sorry, I don't think I was entirely clear. The defaults should be 1,
>> but entry-spacing can be explicitly set to 0 (as in Chicago and IEEE).
>> Currently, if entry-spacing is set to 0 in the style,
>> makeBibliography() gives entryspacing:1 (although non-zero values are
>> properly passed through). I don't think there's really a problem with
>> line-spacing, since there's no legitimate reason to set it to 0.
>
> Aha.  Okay, I'll fix this, and file a checkin soon.

Realized this morning that I hadn't attended to this. It's fixed now,
with default values of 1 for line-spacing and entry-spacing, and
proper recognition of these option values in the style.

[Rintze Zelle]

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 8:06 PM, skornblith <si...@simonster.com> wrote:

On Mar 28, 10:51 am, "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 1:33 PM, skornblith <si...@simonster.com> wrote:
> > This is a little ambiguous in the schema, but, at least as Zotero
> > interprets the entry-spacing property, it's the number of extra
>
> newlines between entries in the bibliography ...
>
> While it's true the spec/shema is vague (and we might want to rectify
> that), this ("number of newlines") is definitely not how I understand
> it. I think of it as more of a bottom-margin measurement on a list
> item (or paragraph). Would it be wrong to say that the unit is
> something akin to an em?

Yes, this is another way of thinking about it, and this is how I was
planning to format it in the word processor (the unit is probably
around 1.1 em).

Anybody care to suggest new descriptions for the specification? We currently have:

---
line-spacing
Sets the spacing of lines (in units of lines, default is "1")

entry-spacing
Sets the spacing of lines (in units of line-spacing, default is "1")
---

which indeed is vague and not correct. To kick off, maybe something like:

---
line-spacing
Sets the vertical space between lines. By default lines are single-spacing (a value of "1"). May be set to any non-negative integer (e.g. "2" for double-spacing).

entry-spacing
Sets the vertical space between bibliographic entries. By default entries are [???] (a value of "1"). May be set to any non-negative integer.
---

Rintze

[Bruce D'Arcus]

I think that's better, if still not terribly specific. Is that OK with
the implementors? E.g. you know what to do with this in different
potential output formats (RTF, HTML, ODF, etc.)?

Bruce

[Rintze Zelle]

Feel free to suggest changes. I'm not really sure how to pin this one down (e.g. in csledit.xul, changing the value of line-spacing also affects the space between entries. I'm not sure how to explain that in the spec, and I don't know whether that's even desired behavior).

Rintze

[Frank Bennett]

On May 3, 2:37 pm, Rintze Zelle <rintze.ze...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 12:25 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <bdar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Rintze Zelle <rintze.ze...@gmail.com>

In citeproc-js, I think of these as rough hints to desired behavior,
for the benefit of applications consuming processor output. The
processor does not dictate line- and entry-spacing directly (inline)
in HTML output, and it probably shouldn't do so, if the target
rendering engine offers a more general styling mechanism. For a
description of desired behavior, maybe something like this?

line-spacing
"line height should be set to this value (default 1), multiplied by
the standard unit of line height."

entry-spacing
"vertical space between entries should be increased by this value
(default 1), multiplied by the line height."

[Rintze Zelle]

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Frank Bennett <bierc...@gmail.com> wrote:

In citeproc-js, I think of these as rough hints to desired behavior,
for the benefit of applications consuming processor output.  The
processor does not dictate line- and entry-spacing directly (inline)
in HTML output, and it probably shouldn't do so, if the target
rendering engine offers a more general styling mechanism.  For a
description of desired behavior, maybe something like this?

line-spacing
 "line height should be set to this value (default 1), multiplied by
the standard unit of line height."

entry-spacing
 "vertical space between entries should be increased by this value
(default 1), multiplied by the line height."

Another iteration (already green-lighted by Frank):

line-spacing
Specifies a formatting hint for vertical line distance. Defaults to "1" (single-spacing), and can be set to any non-negative integer to specify a multiple of the standard unit of line height (e.g. "2" for double-spacing).

entry-spacing
Specifies a formatting hint for vertical distance between bibliographic entries. By default (with a value of "1"), entries are separated by a single additional line-height (as set by the line-spacing attribute). Can be set to any non-negative integer to specify a multiple of this amount.

Rintze

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Rintze Zelle <rintze...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Frank Bennett <bierc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> In citeproc-js, I think of these as rough hints to desired behavior,
>> for the benefit of applications consuming processor output.  The
>> processor does not dictate line- and entry-spacing directly (inline)
>> in HTML output, and it probably shouldn't do so, if the target
>> rendering engine offers a more general styling mechanism.  For a
>> description of desired behavior, maybe something like this?
>>
>> line-spacing
>>  "line height should be set to this value (default 1), multiplied by
>> the standard unit of line height."
>>
>> entry-spacing
>>  "vertical space between entries should be increased by this value
>> (default 1), multiplied by the line height."
>
> Another iteration (already green-lighted by Frank):
>
> line-spacing
> Specifies a formatting hint for vertical line distance. Defaults to "1"
> (single-spacing), and can be set to any non-negative integer to specify a
> multiple of the standard unit of line height (e.g. "2" for double-spacing).
>
> entry-spacing
> Specifies a formatting hint for vertical distance between bibliographic
> entries. By default (with a value of "1"), entries are separated by a single
> additional line-height (as set by the line-spacing attribute). Can be set to
> any non-negative integer to specify a multiple of this amount.

Fine by me. I'd say, unless you hear objections from the Mendeley
guys, Ron, Andrea, etc. in the next 48 hours (let's say by end of day
Tuesday), just go with it.

Bruce