Re: [Cider Workshop] Ibc tanks

[Nick at Ciderniks]

The 'air pockets' have never caused me any problems. I've also found that cider stays fresh in IBCs (mine live outside without cover) for several months even if they are not full, so I wouldn't worry overly about the small pockets of air. The transfer into an IBC has also probably knocked some CO2 out of the cider, although this may well be reabsorbed over time

Regards

Nick

Nick Edwards
Ciderniks – Cider from Kintbury

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On 20/05/2013 17:54, Richard Wise wrote:

Hi everyone,I have just racked of my cider in to 1000 litre ibc tanks,I'm just a bit worried about the air pockets ether side of the lid although the tanks are full to the brim, has anyone got any advice please.

[Bob Honey]

If the cider still had an amount of dissolved CO2 in it, in our
experience the air gaps can be ignored. We have yet to experience a
problem keeping the cider thus for the full year from racking. If
others think we have just been lucky, please put Richard - and myself
right.
Bob

On 20 May 2013, at 17:54, Richard Wise wrote:

> Hi everyone,I have just racked of my cider in to 1000 litre ibc
> tanks,I'm just a bit worried about the air pockets ether side of the
> lid although the tanks are full to the brim, has anyone got any
> advice please.
>

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[JezH]

I must confess having been stressed about this problem before, but
after several years of using IBC's can safely say that it should not
cause any problems. Mind you, as all the cider goes within a 12 month
period I cannot speak for longer term than about 6 months. Also, I
rack 'down' into smaller tanks/tubs to maintain an exclusion of air,
so dont have any experience of part full IBCs.

All the best

Jez

[Jason Mitchell (Ashridge Cider)]

Richard, I know exactly what you mean, and I have had just the same thoughts.
To reduce the air space in the two pockets I do a couple of things.

On most IBCs there are two lugs on either side of the lid with a small hole in.
I get a piece of timber, say 2x1, and pull up the whole lid by tying some cord onto the lugs and then you can then easily lift up the lid as you pump into the IBC and get it really full. You will find that the lid sort of floats on the cider as the level rises anyway. When the level is right up at the neck of the IBC, screw on the lid and let off the cord. Hey presto full IBC.

I often charge my IBCs with Co2, and if you really want to go to town, you can over inflate the IBC to make the top assume a dome. If you do this enough it will maintain this shape although they don't stack as well ever again!

However, from what other people are saying, maybe it is not necessary. I just have a phobia about air and cider.

Good luck, Jason

[Andrew Lea]

On 20/05/2013 18:14, Bob Honey wrote:
> If the cider still had an amount of dissolved CO2 in it, in our
> experience the air gaps can be ignored. We have yet to experience a
> problem keeping the cider thus for the full year from racking.

I have just measured and calculated the volume contained in the 'lugs'.
By my figures it is just 3% of the nominal container volume. So you are
97% full. (I invite others to do the same calculation - profiles may
differ after all).

Problem? I don't really think so. Especially if the lid stays on. After
all, a normal bottle contains more headspace than that. But if you draw
off say 25% of the IBC contents and admit fresh air to fill the
headspace then that's a different matter. That's when a CO2 or N2 top-up
might indeed be valuable.

Andrew


--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Cheshire Matt]

IIRC Rose in Devon I think fitted a couple of valves on the bumps and pumped CO2 in. But surface area to volume is small and I've not had any problems.

[Andrew Lea]

On 20/05/2013 19:47, Cheshire Matt wrote:
> IIRC Rose in Devon I think fitted a couple of valves on the bumps and pumped CO2 in. But surface area to volume is small and I've not had any problems.

I'm sure she will correct me if I'm wrong but AFAIR that's primarily to
take care of the situation when she has a part-filled IBC after
withdrawing a significant proportion of the contents for sale.

As you say, surface area to volume ratio of the lugs in a full IBC is
small, as is the absolute volume percent.

[Richard Wise]

Thanks to you all for your quick and informative comments. This is my first posting (and my first batch of cider) and your advice is very much appreciated

Regards

Richard

[Cheshire Matt]

First ever batch of cider and done in an IBC? Wow - that's a risky learning curve I don't think I'd like to be on...

Richard Wise <richar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Wes Cherry]

You can bend the top bars of the IBC cage to pull the top of the IBC up and minimize the air pockets.

for easy CO2 topoff, I add the following parts from mcmaster.com:

45975K53

Miniature Pvc High-flow Ball Valve, Elbow, 1/4" Npt Female X 1/4" Npt Male

6718K26

Stainless Stl Industrial-shape Hose Coupling, Plug, 1/4" Nptf Male, 1/4 Coupling Size

(Sorry, McMaster doesn't do well with links to items, you'll have to search for the item codes at mcmaster.com

I then drill and tap the IBC for 1/4" NPT.

I also put one of these on the 2" threaded port on the cap.

91105K82

Fda/nsf Polypro Cam & Groove Hose Coupling, Plug, F Adapter, 2 Coupling Size, 2" Male Npt

I can use that for fills or to dip a wine thief in the IBC.   Normally a camlock cap sits on the top with an airlock fitted to it.   For active ferments when it is warm I can attach a blow-off tube there.

-'//es Cherry

w...@dragonsheadcider.com

Vashon WA, USA

On May 20, 2013, at 9:54 AM, Richard Wise wrote:

Hi everyone,I have just racked of my cider in to 1000 litre ibc tanks,I'm just a bit worried about the air pockets ether side of the lid although the tanks are full to the brim, has anyone got any advice please.

[Devoto Gardens]

Wes - are the IBCs still stackable after those alterations?

Thanks,

Hunter Wade

Devoto Orchards

Sebastopol, California

[Wes Cherry]

I haven't stacked them, but it looks like they will stack without the valve and camlock installed

Cribbing with a few inches of wood would allow the  fittings to stay on.

-'//es

Sent using the 4S

[Nat West]

Cribbing would scare the bejeezus out of me. A full IBC weighs nearly 2500 pounds. 

I have many IBCs with bulging tops and never any problem with stacking. However, I only stack them when they are done fermenting and the original lids are on and screwed down tight. I have pallet racks that I use for actively fermenting IBCs, each shelf with a bit of room, so I can attach blow off hoses, take measurements, etc. Pallet racks are inexpensive in the US.

-Nat West, Portland Ore

[Matt Toomey]

Hey Nat - 

I've got (as yet unused) pallet racks for IBCs too. I'm concerned about point-loading them on the two beams. What are you using - pallets, plywood, crossbars, decking?

Many thanks.

[Jez Howat]

I have a theory about stacking IBC's... In true Ann Elk style (for Monty Python connoisseurs).

Wouldn't stacking in a pyramid formation work - spreading the load and giving space for an airlock? I am doing the experiment later this year so will let you know how it goes! 

Apologies if I have misunderstood the thread!!

All the best

Jez

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[Matt Toomey]

Jez - I think the ideal is for all parts of the base "pallet" to be carrying the weight. So when I place mine on the two beams, the weight is focused entirely on four 1.5" points. At 2000LBS I am sure this is likely to crush those points, potentially causing a catastrophe.

The pyramid scheme (thank you) might be similar, where most of the front portions of the "pallets" are contacting one another, but none of the side portions. Unless I misread your plan... It does sound visually cool.

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[Dougal]

I think you should only pour cider into the top IBC and have it trickle down to the bottom layers ... champagne glass style!!!

Andrew might moan on about contamination and oxidation but the man clearly does not value style over form ;-)

[Claude Jolicoeur]

You might be interested by this picture I took in a cidery in Michigan. The little green bottle is the airlock...
Claude

[Jez Howat]

Claude,

Are most of those containers only part filled? I have no reason to believe that an IBC cannot bear the weight of another full IBC. I have seen it first hand at Mr Whiteheads (another Hampshire producer much larger scale than me)

However, I do like the creative airlock devices when stacking! I have seen one - a tube that seems to go at all angles just to keep the height down!

I have plenty of tubing... May have to send some photos in a couple of months:-)

Jez

Sent from my iPhone

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 4 août 2014 19:02:46 UTC-4, JezH a écrit :

Are most of those containers only part filled? I have no reason to believe that an IBC cannot bear the weight of another full IBC. I have seen it first hand at Mr Whiteheads (another Hampshire producer much larger scale than me)

From the picture, yes it certainly appears 2 of them are only partly filled. However I can't tell you if they were in the process of filling them at the time I took the picture - I didn't ask... But what we see on the picture is the 2 that are only partly filled are easy to reach and could be in the process of being filled. All others that we can see and are harder to reach appear to be full (or almost) - there still seems to be a fair amount of air contact in there though. Maybe they purge the air with CO2 - anyway that is what I would do...
Claude

[Handmade Cider]

Jez,
I have stacked IBC's pyramid fashion but only gone 2 high and 2 wide. I used some 4x2 as bearers and screwed through the upper pallet's plastic base to secure it to the bearers.

I considered building a 9 tank 3 high stack but as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, there is a difference between a point load and a uniform distributed load. IBC's are rated to stack 3 high but this is with a uniformly distributed load.

 This year I am investing in some pallet racking for my tank room.

Earlier this year I bought some second hand IBC's which came with an airock adaptor (from Vigo) fitted in one corner, even with the IBC's stacked 2 high this gave access to the juice for measurements and 'quality control' purposes and with the cap loose on the adaptor allowed CO2 to vent whilst fermenting.

Denis

Spring Surprise - Cider of the Festival Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2014

“Spring Surprise has outsold every cider in the history of Chippenham Camra Beer Festival” Gareth MacDonald, S.W. Wilts Camra Regional Director 

“Spring Surprise sold out the first you'll be pleased to hear. Great work- a delicious cider and perfectly suited to the rare blue skies we had yesterday.” Dan Heath, The Cider Box.

White Label – Joint Cider of the Festival,Chippenham camra Beer Festival 2013

Crazy Diamond – Third Prize Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2013

 

Denis France
www.handmadecider.co.uk
07590 264 804

Company. No. 07241330

[Nat West]

I'm not an IBC expert but I do own and use about 150 of them.

We do not stack more than three high when full and only transport two high via 5500 lb pallet jack. Single high with forklift.

I have come to prefer plastic pallets rather than metal ones since you can poke and push the plastic ones without them cracking but the steel ones break, detach and bend just by looking at them wrong.

The pyramid idea sounds silly. These things are designed by engineers wearing glasses with pocket protectors to stack one on top of another.

We use racks extensively and use no shelving, just the metal bars of the racks. Again, this is what they are designed to do. Even if you use a shelving material across the gap, where is the load spreading to?

[winters...@gmail.com]

Nat,  While storing/aging cider in IBC's stacked, do you hook them up to any sort of sparging gas supply to keep the O2 out?

[Nat West]

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 8:14 AM, <winters...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nat,  While storing/aging cider in IBC's stacked, do you hook them up to any sort of sparging gas supply to keep the O2 out?

No. We do most of our fermentations (10k+ gallons per month) in IBCs. When fermentation begins, we keep the lids loose - no airlocks - but threaded to keep fruit flies out. At approximately 1.005 gravity we tighten down the lids really tight. The IBCs domes swell a little bit. After a few weeks or a few months, we open and rack and do whatever. For post-racking storage in IBCs, we keep the sulfites up around 50 ppm, or just create ciders where a bit of oxidation isn't a bad thing.

Our English-style (only bittersharp and bittersweet) ciders are processed just like the above and sit on the lees for about 10 months before bottling without an intermediary racking. Yes we get some oxidation but nearly all the UK ciders we get in America taste like that too and I kinda like a little wet cardboard every now and then :)

 

[Pete Connor]

I was hoping to ferment and store in ibc this year, but now reading the tread I am nervous

Can anyone recommend a tried and tested alternative product and supplier in the south of England, possibly 500ltr or 1000ltr 

Thank you

On Monday, 20 May 2013 17:54:42 UTC+1, Richard Wise wrote:

[Andrew Lea]

On 16/08/2014 08:29, Pete Connor wrote:
> I was hoping to ferment and store in ibc this year, but now reading the
> tread I am nervous
>
> Can anyone recommend a tried and tested alternative product and supplier
> in the south of England, possibly 500ltr or 1000ltr

Really you can get a bit paranoid about this. Lots of people on this
list ferment and store in food grade IBC's or in 'blue oak'. Yes of
course you have to watch for air ingress but that's true of any
fermentation vessel. Smiths are a well known supplier
http://www.smithsofthedean.co.uk/index.html

If you want a pukka job you can use the purpose designed Speidel tanks
from Vigo but they are more costly. Lovely jobs though and they will
last you 20+ years.
http://www.vigoltd.com/Catalogue/Tanks-vessels-accessories/Plastic-tanks-Speidel/Speidel-plastic-tanks


(That's what I use, and then I store in a stainless variable capacity tank).

Andrew


--
near Oxford, UK

[Lee Smeaton]

I havent much experience in bulk storage - but I do remember years back visiting a farm in somerset where "nobby the farmer" had his scrumpy in a huge oak barrels that appeared to be older than Bob Monkhouse's jokes - it would probably have been 2 or three IBC's worth each

he just made his cider, stuck it in the barrel then poured it out the tap as required - he never seemed to worry about "daft things" like air getting in - I think the oxygen was just too scared of his rocket fuel scrumpy, he had new, year old and two year old in his barn - all tasted fine.

regards

Lee

[winters...@gmail.com]

One last question, and I apologize if this was discussed in a previous post, but I did not see it in the archives...would olive oil previously in the IBC pose any issues (assuming the tanks are well cleaned and sanitized) with giving the cider an off taste or other ill effect?

[Nat West]

Yes. HDPE is oil-loving and water-hating. Oils of any kind will remain in the plastic no matter how well you clean.

On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 12:59 PM, <winters...@gmail.com> wrote:

One last question, and I apologize if this was discussed in a previous post, but I did not see it in the archives...would olive oil previously in the IBC pose any issues (assuming the tanks are well cleaned and sanitized) with giving the cider an off taste or other ill effect?

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 21 août 2014 18:30:59 UTC-4, Nat West a écrit :

Yes. HDPE is oil-loving and water-hating. Oils of any kind will remain in the plastic no matter how well you clean.

True, a barrel (or other plastic container) that has contained olives or olive oil will keep a smell of olives for a very long time. 

However, I once took the chance to ferment in a container that still has a smell of olives and to my surprise, the cider didn't pick any of the odor and was perfect.

Claude

[Andrew Lea]

Yes the oil will remain in the plastic and may slowly leach out but because it is not highly flavour active it's unlikely to be perceptible in the cider. That is based on the reported experience of people who have used such containers as well as theoretical reasoning.  I have also used olive oil on the surface of cider to exclude air and it did not taint the cider. In part it may depend on the quality of the oil. But you should certainly check the container yourself. If you can detect an off odour then reject it.

Containers to be definitely avoided are those which have contained citrus juices or oils, blackcurrant juice or generally any spice. These contain some very odour active molecules which you will never get rid of. 

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[Raglan Cider Mill]

I regularly ferment in 48 gallon ex olive oil drums, I do pressure wash & sterilise them well first and have never had a problem.

Sally

[Handmade Cider]

Andrew said; Containers to be definitely avoided are those which have contained citrus juices or oils, blackcurrant juice or generally any spice. These contain some very odour active molecules which you will never get rid of.

I can testify to this, I used a 1500L roto from Mole Valley that had previously held Orange Juice and the cider came out with a nose of orange! Said container is now a fruit wash...

Denis

Spring Surprise - Cider of the Festival Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2014

“Spring Surprise has outsold every cider in the history of Chippenham Camra Beer Festival” Gareth MacDonald, S.W. Wilts Camra Regional Director 

“Spring Surprise sold out the first you'll be pleased to hear. Great work- a delicious cider and perfectly suited to the rare blue skies we had yesterday.” Dan Heath, The Cider Box.

White Label – Joint Cider of the Festival,Chippenham camra Beer Festival 2013

Crazy Diamond – Third Prize Chippenham Camra Beer Festival 2013

 

Denis France
www.handmadecider.co.uk
07590 264 804

Company. No. 07241330