Nerdy questions about sweetening...

[JezH]

I sometimes have these thoughts whilst tinkering with cider...

As I have mentioned probably too many times, I have 'issues' with
sweetening cider. Essentially, if I were to do it, how could I do it
while retaining the integrity and character of the cider.

I thought that the obvious way must be to add juice and then
pasteurise... all natural goodies etc. However, having sold out of my
own and had the opportunity to drink other ciders (a positive spin on
having to pay for cider:-) I have come accross a large amount where
juice is used as a sweetener - and often it smothers the taste of the
cider to leave something, well, juicy. I have changed my mind and I am
not a big fan of it.

The only other use of sweetener I have made was for Putley last year
as an experiment with sugar (and a fridge!). It was just nasty - far
too sweet and you could taste a change.

SO, what to do? Apart from doing nothing, that is.

My latest question is about adding a sweetener (artificial) before
fermentation. Is this the same as adding it after fermentation, or
does the sweetener somehow 'blend in' to a degree?

I would appreciate any thoughts on this, although even at 4500 litres
I am still quite content with not sweetening at all... although I am
sure there will come a time!

All the best

Jez

[Tim]

Good luck Jez, when I broached the subject I did not get the answer I
thought I would.

Tim.

All the best

Jez

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

[GREG DAVIES]

Seeing as no one else has answered here is my tuppence worth;
 Due to public demand I have had to produce a medium sweet cider and as I don't believe in adding anything artificial I have successfully used british natural sugar dissolved in water and added soon before supply to avoid the need for pasteurisation. 500ml of dry sugar should be about right for a 25 litre container and still does not compromise the quality I feel. Maybe you just added too much Jez.
Regards Greg

> From: t...@marshwoodvalecider.com
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Nerdy questions about sweetening...
> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 10:02:16 +0000

[Raymond Blockley]

I go by taste when I sweeten. Note: I do not sweeten all of my ciders and those that I do, I only sweeten slightly. Those I do sweeten are made with certain local fruit (ie: not 'cider-fruit') so are seen as "eastern counties" style ciders and as such are sometimes a bit sharp which a touch (I do mean 'touch') of sweetness helps smooth out, mask some of the acidity and enhance their 'fruity' taste.

 

I would never add a sweetener prior to fermentation as you do not know what by-products which add to 'mouth-feel' and 'sweetness' may be produced during fermentation, for example glycerin products. My own slant is to only sweeten after fermentation and maturation, and to do so VERY gradually and record the amounts added, using a glass of the base cider to compare against. I mainly use small amounts of sucralose, sugar when the cider is to be quickly consumed. Both I add as solution using very finely graded syringes.  The sweetener needs to be fully blended in but with sucralose, I've personally not noticed any discernable difference in the taste of the cider immedialetly after addition compared with leaving it for a week or so, but I understand this is not the case with sugar (and no I don't mean re-fermentation).

 

I posted up last year my own method of sweetening and how I make up a stock sucralose solution, so don't intend to repeat all that again.

 

I leave it up to the individual to decide if they can 'taste' any addition of sugar or sucralose...... Unlike Saccharin, I am very sceptical of folks who claim to be able to tell the difference on just sweetness - mouthfeel being another matter entirely.

 

Cheers, Ray.

--
Ray B

[Bob Honey]

Hi Jez.
I do not apologise for using sucralose, but entirely understand others
being uncomfortable about it for their own cider. Ours is just too
dry for any ones taste, and as we do not want to pasteurise our
draught cider we cannot use sugar, as some Bag in Box smaller pub
customers may have it in a warm bar for a month in a slow part of the
winter. I would be interested in comments about pre sweetening, but
the quantity to use would worry me, as even the smallest change in
sucralose concentration can have an enormous effect on perceived
sweetness. Our amounts have varied between 22 and 32 g per 1000
litres. We test by taste various inclusion rates at the end of
fermentation and again after maturation and the apparent sweetness of
the raw cider changes in that time, so we would not have the faintest
idea of inclusion rate until we are ready with our new seasons offering.
I look forward to further comments!
Bob Honey

[Ric Nash]

Sorry about my ignorance but what is Susralose ?
I too wish to sweeten my cider, or stop fermation early. The
feedback from my tasting are its far to dry.which i agree so the argument
"to sweeten or not "for me easy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.927 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4195 - Release Date: 02/07/12
20:17:00

[Bob Honey]

Sucralose is an artificial sweetener derived somehow from sugar.
Andrew can probably tell us how, although I know he doesn't really
approve!
The big advantages are that it cannot be fermented and does not have
the aftertaste of saccharin
Until recently it had been difficult to get hold of in smaller
quantities but a couple of years ago I did manage to persuade Vigo to
start stocking it, so that is your best source..
Bob

[Jez Howat]

Greg, do you mean 500g (instead of ml) for dry sugar... or am I just demonstrating my lack of volumetric IQ???

 

Last year I was trying for a medium dry, and added the sugar about 3-4 days before the competition. I must say it was not one of the better medium dry ciders I tried on that day and to me I could taste the change (well, I tested it against my equivalent dry cider). I do find that bottle conditioning lifts the dryness of my cider – I think its just that the bubbles counter the tannin a bit.

 

Ray, is there any reason for your using sucralose as opposed to, say, aspartame? And using sugar when you can – does that mean that sugar is your weapon of choice? Incidentally Bob – no need to worry... its all up for debate as far as I am concerned! I thought juice would be the way to go, but far too many ciders end up tasting more of juice than of cider!

 

Rich. Sucralose is an artificial sweetener, just like aspartame, that has taken off in recent years although only just become allowed for use in the UK under changes to Notice 162. You will find it in the shops under its commercial name of ‘Splenda’.

 

The emphasis of the question was to see if its worth adding before fermentation. A bit late now, for sure (although my blends are coming down really slowly at the moment – two at 1006/7 and one at 1018).

 

Sorry for all the questions – I should make a note of the timing of this post... I have a sneaky feeling that I come around to this every February!!

 

All the best

 

Jez

[Tim]

Possibly why Sucralose is not the best sweetener can be read here.

 

http://jstevens.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/how-sucralose-aka-splenda-is-made-and-why-you-want-to-avoid-it/

 

Tim.

--

[Cheshire Matt]

Isn't Splenda not allowed under Notice 162 as it has additives to bulk the
sucralose up? Sucralose is allowed - it's the bulking agent that's not.

[Michael Greenberg]

On Feb 8, 4:41 am, JezH <jez.ho...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> I sometimes have these thoughts whilst tinkering with cider...
>
> As I have mentioned probably too many times, I have 'issues' with
> sweetening cider. Essentially, if I were to do it, how could I do it
> while retaining the integrity and character of the cider.
>
> I thought that the obvious way must be to add juice and then
> pasteurise... all natural goodies etc. However, having sold out of my
> own and had the opportunity to drink other ciders (a positive spin on
> having to pay for cider:-) I have come accross a large amount where
> juice is used as a sweetener - and often it smothers the taste of the
> cider to leave something, well, juicy. I have changed my mind and I am
> not a big fan of it.
>
> The only other use of sweetener I have made was for Putley last year
> as an experiment with sugar (and a fridge!). It was just nasty - far
> too sweet and you could taste a change.
>
> SO, what to do? Apart from doing nothing, that is.

My local homebrew shop recommended using lactose. It's less sweet
than sucrose, but not fermentable by most yeasts. A friend of mine
has used xylitol to sweeten mead, though I haven't tasted the result.

I've never gotten around to using the lactose, though, because my
girlfriend is lactose-intolerant. :)

> My latest question is about adding a sweetener (artificial) before
> fermentation. Is this the same as adding it after fermentation, or
> does the sweetener somehow 'blend in' to a degree?

They recommended putting it in after fermentation---not because it
would interfere with fermentation, but merely so you could add just
the right amount.

Cheers,
Michael

[Vince Wakefield]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucralose

Vince

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

-----
No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4795 - Release Date: 02/07/12

-----
No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4795 - Release Date: 02/07/12

[Claude Jolicoeur]

On 8 fév, 04:41, JezH wrote:
> As I have mentioned probably too many times, I have 'issues' with
> sweetening cider. Essentially, if I were to do it, how could I do it
> while retaining the integrity and character of the cider.

Jez,
Have you tried keeving yet? If not, why not give it a try? This is
really the way to go if you want to retain "the integrity and
character of the cider"
And it is not really difficult.
Claude

[Jez Howat]

Yes, Matt. I think you are right. I was just explaining what sucralose
was...

Jez

[Raymond Blockley]

Jez,

 

Key reason for not using Aspartame (ie: Canderel) is that it 'hydrolises' (sp?) in the presence of alcohol, so after a few days you are back to square one. It is OK for very short-term home use though. 

 

Matt is correct in that the bulking agent in Splenda (maltodextrin I think) is not listed on HMRC 162, so again OK for home-use but not really for commercuial use.

 

My 'weapon of choice' is sucralose, I'm afraid. I avoid using sugar if I can, but if it is requested will sweeten with sugar (I supply cider to some of the Vegan, etc. local groups for their festivals so always check before-hand).

 

My personal jury is out on mouthfeel with sugar; I have been unswayed in experiments with sugar that the increased 'body' and 'mouthfeel' given by adding sugar is worth the hassle.

 

Like Bob, many of the pubs I supply are happy that the cider c an happily sit ion a box for month or three with no ill effects (just like they are used to with the "hot fill" (ie: pasteurised) practices of Westons and the [whatever they do/use] at Gwynt Y Ddraig).

 

Cheers, Ray

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Cider Workshop" group.

To post to this group, send email to cider-workshop@googlegroups.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

cider-workshop+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com

For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

--
Ray B

[GREG DAVIES]

Jez
I should have explained, when I was experimenting adding sugar I used a measuring jug rather than by weight and so 500ml dry sugar gives a fairly sweet cider which can be adjusted according to preference.
 

---

From: jez....@btinternet.com

To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Nerdy questions about sweetening...

Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 15:15:49 +0000

Greg, do you mean 500g (instead of ml) for dry sugar... or am I just demonstrating my lack of volumetric IQ???

 

Last year I was trying for a medium dry, and added the sugar about 3-4 days before the competition. I must say it was not one of the better medium dry ciders I tried on that day and to tme I could taste the change (well, I tested it against my equivalent dry cider). I do find that bottle conditioning lifts the dryness of my cider – I think its just that the bubbles counter the tannin a bit.

 

Ray, is there any reason for your using sucralose as opposed to, say, aspartame? And using sugar when you can – does that mean that sugar is your weapon of choice? Incidentally Bob – no need to worry... its all up for debate as far as I am concerned! I thought juice would be the way to go, but far too many ciders end up tasting more of juice than of cider!

 

Rich. Sucralose is an artificial sweetener, just like aspartame, that has taken off in recent years although only just become allowed for use in the UK under changes to Notice 162. You will find it in the shops under its commercial name of ‘Splenda’.

 

The emphasis of the question was to see if its worth adding before fermentation. A bit late now, for sure (although my blends are coming down really slowly at the moment – two at 1006/7 and one at 1018).

 

Sorry for all the questions – I should make a note of the timing of this post... I have a sneaky feeling that I come around to this every February!!

 

All the best

 

Jez

[GREG DAVIES]

Jez
I pour the sugar into a measuring jug and then add hot water to disolve it.
Greg
 

---

From: jez....@btinternet.com
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Nerdy questions about sweetening...
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 15:15:49 +0000

[Jeff Schwartz]

Can someone explain the process of keeving. Thanks a lot

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claude Jolicoeur
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 8:34 AM
To: Cider Workshop

--

Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4794 - Release Date: 02/07/12

[Tim]

http://www.cider.org.uk/ good old google.

[Andrew Lea]

http://www.cider.org.uk/keeving.html even

On 08/02/2012 20:59, Tim wrote:
> http://www.cider.org.uk/ good old google.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Schwartz
> Sent: 08 February 2012 20:40
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Re: Nerdy questions about sweetening...
>
> Can someone explain the process of keeving. Thanks a lot
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claude Jolicoeur
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 8:34 AM
> To: Cider Workshop
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Nerdy questions about sweetening...
>

> On 8 f�v, 04:41, JezH wrote:
>> As I have mentioned probably too many times, I have 'issues' with
>> sweetening cider. Essentially, if I were to do it, how could I do it
>> while retaining the integrity and character of the cider.
>
> Jez,
> Have you tried keeving yet? If not, why not give it a try? This is
> really the way to go if you want to retain "the integrity and
> character of the cider"
> And it is not really difficult.
> Claude
>

--
Cider Workshop Website
www.ciderworkshop.com

Andrew's Website
www.cider.org.uk

[Tim]

Ah, see I thought a quick scan down the navigation would have found it. ;)

Tim.

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
Sent: 08 February 2012 21:07
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Nerdy questions about sweetening...

http://www.cider.org.uk/keeving.html even

On 08/02/2012 20:59, Tim wrote:
> http://www.cider.org.uk/ good old google.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Schwartz
> Sent: 08 February 2012 20:40
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Re: Nerdy questions about sweetening...
>
> Can someone explain the process of keeving. Thanks a lot
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claude Jolicoeur
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 8:34 AM
> To: Cider Workshop
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Nerdy questions about sweetening...
>

> On 8 fév, 04:41, JezH wrote:
>> As I have mentioned probably too many times, I have 'issues' with
>> sweetening cider. Essentially, if I were to do it, how could I do it
>> while retaining the integrity and character of the cider.
>
> Jez,
> Have you tried keeving yet? If not, why not give it a try? This is
> really the way to go if you want to retain "the integrity and
> character of the cider"
> And it is not really difficult.
> Claude
>

--
Cider Workshop Website
www.ciderworkshop.com

Andrew's Website
www.cider.org.uk

--

[Andrew Lea]

It does indeed, for the likes of you and me. But people who don't
understand how to use Google are unlikely to be able to use a navigation
bar, surely ;-)

[Tim]

Mmm, are there links from the main workshop site to the different sections
on your site?

>> On 8 fév, 04:41, JezH wrote:
>>> As I have mentioned probably too many times, I have 'issues' with
>>> sweetening cider. Essentially, if I were to do it, how could I do it
>>> while retaining the integrity and character of the cider.
>>
>> Jez,
>> Have you tried keeving yet? If not, why not give it a try? This is
>> really the way to go if you want to retain "the integrity and
>> character of the cider"
>> And it is not really difficult.
>> Claude
>>
>
>

--
Cider Workshop Website
www.ciderworkshop.com

Andrew's Website
www.cider.org.uk

--

[Jez Howat]

Yes there are, but I managed to get under the main style of Andrews website
in order to find the proper links:-)

You could use the Workshop website to get to the right place (or am I
misunderstanding?)

Jez

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/02/2012 10:01, Jez Howat wrote:
> Yes there are, but I managed to get under the main style of Andrews website
> in order to find the proper links:-)

Just to explain, my website is home-made and still frame-based (yes I
know it shouldn't be but it is and I haven't got around to re-making
it!). This means that although you can bookmark pages as individual
frames (generally via a right-hand mouse click) they will not include
the navigation / menu bar. Sorry about that but until I have the time /
enthusiasm to re-engineer it that is just how things are!

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Jez Howat]

On 09/02/2012 10:01, Andrew Lea wrote:
"Just to explain, my website is home-made and still frame-based (yes I know
it shouldn't be but it is and I haven't got around to re-making it!). This
means that although you can bookmark pages as individual frames (generally
via a right-hand mouse click) they will not include the navigation / menu
bar. Sorry about that but until I have the time / enthusiasm to re-engineer
it that is just how things are!"

Its not that hard to find the links in any case.

Jez

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/02/2012 14:07, Jez Howat wrote:
> On 09/02/2012 10:01, Andrew Lea wrote:

> "Just to explain, my website is home-made...."

>
> Its not that hard to find the links in any case.

Maybe but nowadays everything is expected to be so smooth and seamless!!
It is I'm afraid very much a "bailer twine and old 4 by 2" type of
website ;-)

[Bob Honey]

That's comforting Andrew!
Bob Honey

[John B, Bath]

Last year I did very well with adding a small amount of dissolved
white sugar when bottling. I waited until fermentation was finished
and did final racking into demijohns, then kept the cider in bunged
demijohns for several months (until about Sept) to mature. I have
about 15-16 bottles which are 750ml with the flip-tops and, whenever
6-7 of these became empty, I would bottle up another gallon into these
bottles. At this stage I would add about three quarters of a teaspoon
sugar to each bottle. Bottles were generally left 2-3 weeks before
drinking. The results were excellent, with a tiny bit of fizz on
opening and just enough 'sweetness' to take the edge off the
underlying acidic note. You might have called the result 'medium-dry'.
Just what I was aiming for. Might just have been luck, in which case I
am hoping for the same luck again this year!