Is the taste in the Barrel ?
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Orchard eye
Nov 19, 2009, 5:08:56 PM11/19/09
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Hi all,
Below is an extract from my latest blog. Basically the question is. Do
you get more flavour from maturing your cider into Oak Barrels
(probably old sherry barrels) rather then sterile plastic barrels,
like we've just done ?
"Now I’m no expert, but the thing about Roger’s cider and other
traditional cider makers in the west country, is you not only get the
taste of the blended apples in the brew but also the inherent flavour
from the oak barrels where the cider has been maturing, probably for
the past 10 months or so. The barrels look as old as the barn (see
pics below including Frank Naish’s oak barrels) and have obviously
been effecting and sealing in the flavor of the cider for years.
Therefore what hope do we have of producing a complex and mature cider
using only our sterile plastic tubs and plastic barrels ?
here is the link to the full blog, it possibly makes more sense
http://theorchardgroup.wordpress.com/
Thanks
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
Below is an extract from my latest blog. Basically the question is. Do
you get more flavour from maturing your cider into Oak Barrels
(probably old sherry barrels) rather then sterile plastic barrels,
like we've just done ?
"Now I’m no expert, but the thing about Roger’s cider and other
traditional cider makers in the west country, is you not only get the
taste of the blended apples in the brew but also the inherent flavour
from the oak barrels where the cider has been maturing, probably for
the past 10 months or so. The barrels look as old as the barn (see
pics below including Frank Naish’s oak barrels) and have obviously
been effecting and sealing in the flavor of the cider for years.
Therefore what hope do we have of producing a complex and mature cider
using only our sterile plastic tubs and plastic barrels ?
here is the link to the full blog, it possibly makes more sense
http://theorchardgroup.wordpress.com/
Thanks
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
cider digest
Nov 19, 2009, 5:44:37 PM11/19/09
to Cider Workshop
Neil,
I wondered the same about my first time this year at making cider.
Decided to try a chesnut barrel of 50 litres.
Have been disapointed with the wood spigot leaking a bit and leaching
( very small amounts ) of cider.
The one's I have are unsealed from the outside? So I called and spoke
to folks at Gino Pinto, they thought that may be the issue.
Had a new set sent from them and hope the leaking we be put to rest.
I must say that tradition was on my mind first with respect to ageing
in barrels.
Thought that the way a barrel flavors wine it would be a nice added
touch to the cider.
Carl
On Nov 19, 5:08 pm, Orchard eye <neilphillipsph...@btopenworld.com>
wrote:
I wondered the same about my first time this year at making cider.
Decided to try a chesnut barrel of 50 litres.
Have been disapointed with the wood spigot leaking a bit and leaching
( very small amounts ) of cider.
The one's I have are unsealed from the outside? So I called and spoke
to folks at Gino Pinto, they thought that may be the issue.
Had a new set sent from them and hope the leaking we be put to rest.
I must say that tradition was on my mind first with respect to ageing
in barrels.
Thought that the way a barrel flavors wine it would be a nice added
touch to the cider.
Carl
On Nov 19, 5:08 pm, Orchard eye <neilphillipsph...@btopenworld.com>
wrote:
Martin Cosgrave
Nov 19, 2009, 7:19:51 PM11/19/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Neil
Look round the back of Roger Wilkin's famous cider barn and you'll see the massive black "jam jars" - he doesn't mature the cider in wood, he does it in plastic and decants to the large wood barrels for serving.
As far as maturing in oak barrels previously used, I tend to like cider done in rum barrels far more than that done in whiskey barrels - I can't stand the peaty flavour coming through to "infect" the cider. Rum on the other hand does seem like a perfect complement.
I really don't think you'll have anything to worry about with your cider in plastic - you're in good company. This year's CAMRA Pomona award winner, Mike Johnson of Ross on Wye Cider, keeps most of his cider in the 1000L IBC (bulk liquid containers, notable for the cage of aluminium tubing around them) until ready to serve, when he decants into wood barrels for the public view. However when he does do a barrel maturation (usually whiskey) I haven't noticed the peaty flavour coming through too much. although it does obviously contribute. I suppose his barrels come from less peaty whiskeys this year.
Although this is my first year making cider too, I am fairly confident that my cider (some from the same juice as yours, of course) will mature into a fine beverage, regardless of not being oaked.
A friend of mine who is very knowledgeable about wine will not drink a Chardonnay unless it is unoaked - oak flavour as an ingredient is not necessarily what you always want.
As I tasted the juice that went into your cider (and thanks for the 20 spare litres that went into mine, but I haven't sampled it yet) I'm pretty sure you'll have a perfectly good drop since the juice was very sweet and tanninned.
So with reference to your blog, I'm in an interesting position in that I bought 50 galls of juice from Roger to supplement the 30 gals I already had. So the juice from Roger which I ferment; will that taste exactly like Roger's? - it's a question I've been asked and I fully expect the answer to be "no". I will of course report my findings to the group.
BTW as far as I'm aware you can't use a sherry / whiskey / rum barrel for two years in a row and expect it to have the same effect on the cider in the second year as it did in the first, by a long chalk.
Martin
Look round the back of Roger Wilkin's famous cider barn and you'll see the massive black "jam jars" - he doesn't mature the cider in wood, he does it in plastic and decants to the large wood barrels for serving.
As far as maturing in oak barrels previously used, I tend to like cider done in rum barrels far more than that done in whiskey barrels - I can't stand the peaty flavour coming through to "infect" the cider. Rum on the other hand does seem like a perfect complement.
I really don't think you'll have anything to worry about with your cider in plastic - you're in good company. This year's CAMRA Pomona award winner, Mike Johnson of Ross on Wye Cider, keeps most of his cider in the 1000L IBC (bulk liquid containers, notable for the cage of aluminium tubing around them) until ready to serve, when he decants into wood barrels for the public view. However when he does do a barrel maturation (usually whiskey) I haven't noticed the peaty flavour coming through too much. although it does obviously contribute. I suppose his barrels come from less peaty whiskeys this year.
Although this is my first year making cider too, I am fairly confident that my cider (some from the same juice as yours, of course) will mature into a fine beverage, regardless of not being oaked.
A friend of mine who is very knowledgeable about wine will not drink a Chardonnay unless it is unoaked - oak flavour as an ingredient is not necessarily what you always want.
As I tasted the juice that went into your cider (and thanks for the 20 spare litres that went into mine, but I haven't sampled it yet) I'm pretty sure you'll have a perfectly good drop since the juice was very sweet and tanninned.
So with reference to your blog, I'm in an interesting position in that I bought 50 galls of juice from Roger to supplement the 30 gals I already had. So the juice from Roger which I ferment; will that taste exactly like Roger's? - it's a question I've been asked and I fully expect the answer to be "no". I will of course report my findings to the group.
BTW as far as I'm aware you can't use a sherry / whiskey / rum barrel for two years in a row and expect it to have the same effect on the cider in the second year as it did in the first, by a long chalk.
Martin
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Andrew Lea
Nov 20, 2009, 4:34:36 AM11/20/09
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Orchard eye wrote:
>
> Basically the question is. Do
> you get more flavour from maturing your cider into Oak Barrels
> (probably old sherry barrels) rather then sterile plastic barrels,
> like we've just done ?
There are 3 distinct sources of flavour obtainable from wooden barrels:
>
> Basically the question is. Do
> you get more flavour from maturing your cider into Oak Barrels
> (probably old sherry barrels) rather then sterile plastic barrels,
> like we've just done ?
1. Direct transfer or chemical breakdown of wood components into the
liquid from new wood. Examples, the oaky taste of oaked Chardonnay, or
the vanilla notes in Calvados (due to lignin breakdown).
2. Flavour transfer from a previous inhabitant of the barrel eg rum,
sherry, peaty whisk(e)y etc etc.
3. (Much more interesting) Malo-lactic fermentation induced by bacteria
resident in the pores of the wood. This generally happens in 'old'
barrels which have been re-used several times. The ML bacteria build up
in the wood and stay there. When a new cider or wine is put in they get
to work on it. This has been demonstrated for cider, port and sherry,
where barrels are frequently re-used many times, decades or longer.
Of course plastic barrels have none of these possibilities. Nonetheless
there are plenty of chemical and microbial ageing mechanisms that can go
on in essentially inert HDPE or stainless steel so as others have
pointed out this is nothing to lose sleep over. Wooden barrel management
is a skilled art, it can easily go wrong and they can as well be a
source of off-flavours as beneficial ones, so it's swings and roundabouts.
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
Ray Blockley
Nov 20, 2009, 5:29:04 AM11/20/09
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Martin wrote:
"Neil
Look round the back of Roger Wilkin's famous cider barn and you'll see the massive black "jam jars" - he doesn't mature the cider in wood, he does it in plastic and decants to the large wood barrels for serving."
Look round the back of Roger Wilkin's famous cider barn and you'll see the massive black "jam jars" - he doesn't mature the cider in wood, he does it in plastic and decants to the large wood barrels for serving."
Beat me to it! I was going to say the same thing,
after spending half-a-day at Roger Wilkin's last month. In our travels
around the cider-making areas of England and Wales, it is very rare to come
across folks who do the whole job in oak. Plastic or more commonly now,
stainless steel seem to be the order of the day. As Martin says, oak barrels are
now often used for "tourist effect" or convenient dispensing. However, it would
also seem that a number of cider-makers are using oak barrels for maturing after
fermentation in s/steel or plastic?
Ones that we visited who appear to use a lot of oak
are Perry's at Dowlish Wake and Hecks at Street.
Cheshire Matt
Nov 20, 2009, 5:59:25 AM11/20/09
to Cider Workshop
When I was at Mike's place in Ross in April, I thought his Islay cider
was particularly distinct - and very nice. I think I can remember him
saying that it was a particuarly special one tho. The rum ones were
less distinct.
As for Mike fermenting in IBCs, certainly in April there were rather a
large number of full oak barrels in his back barn - which he did
comment at the time "hmm, that one needs topping up a bit".
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs012.snc1/2921_75388641027_584831027_1773279_5570147_n.jpg
This is the damage we did to a selection of his ciders:
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs012.snc1/2921_75118876027_584831027_1767665_7524252_n.jpg
And yes - Roger does have a load of black fermenters round the back -
I can hazily remember commenting on them at the time when I last
popped in, September-time :)
was particularly distinct - and very nice. I think I can remember him
saying that it was a particuarly special one tho. The rum ones were
less distinct.
As for Mike fermenting in IBCs, certainly in April there were rather a
large number of full oak barrels in his back barn - which he did
comment at the time "hmm, that one needs topping up a bit".
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs012.snc1/2921_75388641027_584831027_1773279_5570147_n.jpg
This is the damage we did to a selection of his ciders:
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs012.snc1/2921_75118876027_584831027_1767665_7524252_n.jpg
And yes - Roger does have a load of black fermenters round the back -
I can hazily remember commenting on them at the time when I last
popped in, September-time :)
Martin Cosgrave
Nov 20, 2009, 11:32:30 AM11/20/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
I may have assumed too much, having seen about the same number of IBCs in the barn a month ago as wooden barrels in your picture, these may be temporary storage after pressing and before barrelling. I'll ask him next time I'm up there.
Martin
Martin
--
Orchard eye
Nov 20, 2009, 12:19:09 PM11/20/09
to Cider Workshop
Hi Guys,
thanks for your replies and thanks for your reassurance Martin.
I guess your right. Cider is kept in plastic containers for most of
the maturing time then put into the barrels mainly for show, though I
guess as the Wilkins barrels are so huge, the juice must be in there
for longer therefore taking on some of the character. As Andrew
pointed out, the french winemakers put Chardonnay on oak barrels for a
good reason, to give it that oaky flavour.
Coincidently, I photographed a very traditional cidermaker in Somerset
today who only put his cider in Oak barrels at the last minute to
serve to customers and his cider tasted fantastic (much like
wilkins).He added absolutely nothing to his cider from start to finish
(apart from some saccarine for the sweet cider). He wasn't even too
bothered about topping his barrel up that often anymore, i.e keeping
the air out (he'd been making cider for a long time) and as I said,
his cider tasted gert brilliant.
Go figure that out !
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
On Nov 20, 4:32 pm, Martin Cosgrave <mar...@bettercode.com> wrote:
> I may have assumed too much, having seen about the same number of IBCs in
> the barn a month ago as wooden barrels in your picture, these may be
> temporary storage after pressing and before barrelling. I'll ask him next
> time I'm up there.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Cheshire Matt <goo...@camelid.net> wrote:
> > When I was at Mike's place in Ross in April, I thought his Islay cider
> > was particularly distinct - and very nice. I think I can remember him
> > saying that it was a particuarly special one tho. The rum ones were
> > less distinct.
>
> > As for Mike fermenting in IBCs, certainly in April there were rather a
> > large number of full oak barrels in his back barn - which he did
> > comment at the time "hmm, that one needs topping up a bit".
>
> >http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs012.snc1/2921_75388641...
thanks for your replies and thanks for your reassurance Martin.
I guess your right. Cider is kept in plastic containers for most of
the maturing time then put into the barrels mainly for show, though I
guess as the Wilkins barrels are so huge, the juice must be in there
for longer therefore taking on some of the character. As Andrew
pointed out, the french winemakers put Chardonnay on oak barrels for a
good reason, to give it that oaky flavour.
Coincidently, I photographed a very traditional cidermaker in Somerset
today who only put his cider in Oak barrels at the last minute to
serve to customers and his cider tasted fantastic (much like
wilkins).He added absolutely nothing to his cider from start to finish
(apart from some saccarine for the sweet cider). He wasn't even too
bothered about topping his barrel up that often anymore, i.e keeping
the air out (he'd been making cider for a long time) and as I said,
his cider tasted gert brilliant.
Go figure that out !
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
On Nov 20, 4:32 pm, Martin Cosgrave <mar...@bettercode.com> wrote:
> I may have assumed too much, having seen about the same number of IBCs in
> the barn a month ago as wooden barrels in your picture, these may be
> temporary storage after pressing and before barrelling. I'll ask him next
> time I'm up there.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Cheshire Matt <goo...@camelid.net> wrote:
> > When I was at Mike's place in Ross in April, I thought his Islay cider
> > was particularly distinct - and very nice. I think I can remember him
> > saying that it was a particuarly special one tho. The rum ones were
> > less distinct.
>
> > As for Mike fermenting in IBCs, certainly in April there were rather a
> > large number of full oak barrels in his back barn - which he did
> > comment at the time "hmm, that one needs topping up a bit".
>
>
> > This is the damage we did to a selection of his ciders:
>
> >http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs012.snc1/2921_75118876...
> > This is the damage we did to a selection of his ciders:
>
>
> > And yes - Roger does have a load of black fermenters round the back -
> > I can hazily remember commenting on them at the time when I last
> > popped in, September-time :)
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Cider Workshop
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> > And yes - Roger does have a load of black fermenters round the back -
> > I can hazily remember commenting on them at the time when I last
> > popped in, September-time :)
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Cider Workshop
> > group.
> > To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsub from this group, send email to
Andrew Lea
Nov 20, 2009, 12:31:38 PM11/20/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Orchard eye wrote:
> Coincidently, I photographed a very traditional cidermaker in Somerset
> today who only put his cider in Oak barrels at the last minute to
> serve to customers and his cider tasted fantastic (much like
> wilkins).He added absolutely nothing to his cider from start to finish
> (apart from some saccarine for the sweet cider).
>
It really tickles me these old timers who claim to make 'natural' or
> Coincidently, I photographed a very traditional cidermaker in Somerset
> today who only put his cider in Oak barrels at the last minute to
> serve to customers and his cider tasted fantastic (much like
> wilkins).He added absolutely nothing to his cider from start to finish
> (apart from some saccarine for the sweet cider).
>
'traditional' cider but then stuff it full of saccharin. Admittedly it's
been going on for the best part of a century since their grandfathers
started it, but does nobody else see the incongruity / deceit inherent
in this??
Orchard eye
Nov 22, 2009, 5:09:24 AM11/22/09
to Cider Workshop
Hi Andrew,
Good point. Is saccharin natural ?
Is there any other way of sweetening the cider in the barrel without
re starting fermentation ?
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
Good point. Is saccharin natural ?
Is there any other way of sweetening the cider in the barrel without
re starting fermentation ?
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
Ray Blockley
Nov 22, 2009, 5:34:53 AM11/22/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Hi Neil,
To add to what Andrew may say:
Saccharin is not natural, but a chemical sweetener discovered by accident.
If you Google it, you will get the full story - quite interesting!
Sucralose (ie: Splenda) is a better sweetener - but still not "natural"
although claimed to be based on sugar - which leaves no discernable after
taste. It is none-fermentable and its sweetness will last, unlike Canderel /
Aspartame sweeteners which will hydrolyse and breakdown over quite a short
time and so lose their sweetening affect.
For short term, sugar is best if you must be natural, but longer term
Sucralose is the better option.
Cheers,
To add to what Andrew may say:
Saccharin is not natural, but a chemical sweetener discovered by accident.
If you Google it, you will get the full story - quite interesting!
Sucralose (ie: Splenda) is a better sweetener - but still not "natural"
although claimed to be based on sugar - which leaves no discernable after
taste. It is none-fermentable and its sweetness will last, unlike Canderel /
Aspartame sweeteners which will hydrolyse and breakdown over quite a short
time and so lose their sweetening affect.
For short term, sugar is best if you must be natural, but longer term
Sucralose is the better option.
Cheers,
--
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Orchard eye
Nov 22, 2009, 5:46:04 AM11/22/09
to Cider Workshop
Would you buy Sucralose/Saccharin at the Brew shop, ie is there a
Cider saccharin or do you just troop off to sainsbury's and buy a
packet of Splenda ?
Also the amounts you add are tiny aren't they
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
On Nov 22, 10:34 am, "Ray Blockley" <rayblock...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Hi Neil,
>
> To add to what Andrew may say:
>
> Saccharin is not natural, but a chemical sweetener discovered by accident.
> If you Google it, you will get the full story - quite interesting!
>
> Sucralose (ie: Splenda) is a better sweetener - but still not "natural"
> although claimed to be based on sugar - which leaves no discernable after
> taste. It is none-fermentable and its sweetness will last, unlike Canderel /
> Aspartame sweeteners which will hydrolyse and breakdown over quite a short
> time and so lose their sweetening affect.
>
> For short term, sugar is best if you must be natural, but longer term
> Sucralose is the better option.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rayhttp://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
Cider saccharin or do you just troop off to sainsbury's and buy a
packet of Splenda ?
Also the amounts you add are tiny aren't they
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
On Nov 22, 10:34 am, "Ray Blockley" <rayblock...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Hi Neil,
>
> To add to what Andrew may say:
>
> Saccharin is not natural, but a chemical sweetener discovered by accident.
> If you Google it, you will get the full story - quite interesting!
>
> Sucralose (ie: Splenda) is a better sweetener - but still not "natural"
> although claimed to be based on sugar - which leaves no discernable after
> taste. It is none-fermentable and its sweetness will last, unlike Canderel /
> Aspartame sweeteners which will hydrolyse and breakdown over quite a short
> time and so lose their sweetening affect.
>
> For short term, sugar is best if you must be natural, but longer term
> Sucralose is the better option.
>
> Cheers,
>
Andrew Lea
Nov 22, 2009, 8:48:23 AM11/22/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
You can get bulk saccharin from many places incl Vigo
http://www.vigoltd.com/downloads/catalogue_chemicals_additives.pdf
It has been used for sweetening cider for the best part of 100 years.
Doesn't make it any more "natural" though!
Andrew
http://www.vigoltd.com/downloads/catalogue_chemicals_additives.pdf
It has been used for sweetening cider for the best part of 100 years.
Doesn't make it any more "natural" though!
Andrew
from Heather
Nov 22, 2009, 1:31:03 PM11/22/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
I just used some Splenda to sweeten a batch. I haven't tasted it yet, but I figured when I sweeten tea with sugar or splenda, which I like sweet, I use 1 tsp per cup. As to not over sweeten my cider, I decided to use a ratio of 1 tsp per 8 oz, so 8 tsp per gallon. Of course, I'm working with small batches, but that was the logic behind my decision. You may want to alter your ratio.
Heather
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:46:04 -0800
Heather
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:46:04 -0800
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Is the taste in the Barrel ?
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.
Orchard eye
Nov 22, 2009, 2:30:13 PM11/22/09
to Cider Workshop
Hi Heather,
Thanks for the tip,
were not after are cider being too sweet so we well probably use less.
I was told about a quarter of a tsp ( saccharin) for a 5 gallon
barrel.
Is that way off the mark. The cider makers that I have talked too seem
to use tiny amounts but It still tastes pretty sweet.
Note. most of the cider that we are making we will leave dry, but we
do need an alternative as our project is community based and we need
something sweet for the Sheila's and teenagers (only joking !)
Re not natural. Andrew, What is the natural alternative ?
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
On Nov 22, 6:31 pm, from Heather <for_heat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I just used some Splenda to sweeten a batch. I haven't tasted it yet, but I figured when I sweeten tea with sugar or splenda, which I like sweet, I use 1 tsp per cup. As to not over sweeten my cider, I decided to use a ratio of 1 tsp per 8 oz, so 8 tsp per gallon. Of course, I'm working with small batches, but that was the logic behind my decision. You may want to alter your ratio.
>
> Heather
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:46:04 -0800
> > Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Is the taste in the Barrel ?
> > From: neilphillipsph...@btopenworld.com
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
Thanks for the tip,
were not after are cider being too sweet so we well probably use less.
I was told about a quarter of a tsp ( saccharin) for a 5 gallon
barrel.
Is that way off the mark. The cider makers that I have talked too seem
to use tiny amounts but It still tastes pretty sweet.
Note. most of the cider that we are making we will leave dry, but we
do need an alternative as our project is community based and we need
something sweet for the Sheila's and teenagers (only joking !)
Re not natural. Andrew, What is the natural alternative ?
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
On Nov 22, 6:31 pm, from Heather <for_heat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I just used some Splenda to sweeten a batch. I haven't tasted it yet, but I figured when I sweeten tea with sugar or splenda, which I like sweet, I use 1 tsp per cup. As to not over sweeten my cider, I decided to use a ratio of 1 tsp per 8 oz, so 8 tsp per gallon. Of course, I'm working with small batches, but that was the logic behind my decision. You may want to alter your ratio.
>
> Heather
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:46:04 -0800
> > Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Is the taste in the Barrel ?
> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection.http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
from Heather
Nov 22, 2009, 2:45:37 PM11/22/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
I'll admit - I have no idea how mine will turn out. It might be way too sweet, but that was the logic I went with, and I'll learn one way or another if that was a good idea or not. Then again, I think saccharin is sweeter than sugar, so that might account for the low ratio. Oh, yes, Sweet N' Low says for every 1 cup of sugar, use 8 teaspoons of their product. Splenda is usually used the same way as sugar, 1 cup Splenda = 1 cup sugar. So I guess one just needs to read how their sweetener compares to sugar.
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:30:13 -0800
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:30:13 -0800
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Is the taste in the Barrel ?
Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.
Andrew Lea
Nov 22, 2009, 2:53:27 PM11/22/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Note that Splenda, Sweet n' Low and all the others are not pure
(saccharin or sucralose). They would be far too sweet if they were. They
are 'cut' with inert fillers like maltodextrin or lactose to bring them
into a usable range for home use. Typically, the mfgs aim for a spoonful
of powder or one compressed tablet to have the same sweetening power as
a spoonful of sugar.
If you were using the pure chemicals as a cider mfg does, you would use
a great deal less.
Andrew
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
(saccharin or sucralose). They would be far too sweet if they were. They
are 'cut' with inert fillers like maltodextrin or lactose to bring them
into a usable range for home use. Typically, the mfgs aim for a spoonful
of powder or one compressed tablet to have the same sweetening power as
a spoonful of sugar.
If you were using the pure chemicals as a cider mfg does, you would use
a great deal less.
Andrew
> Windows 7: I wanted simpler, now it's simpler. I'm a rock star.
> <http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?h=myidea?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_myidea:112009>
>
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Ray Blockley
Nov 22, 2009, 2:54:57 PM11/22/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Hi Neil,
I've never used Saccharin for sweetening cider. "Splenda" is a better choice
for me: either by adding the tablets and allowing to dissolve, or by adding
a teaspoon (5 ml) or tablespoon (15 ml) of the powder. The Splenda powder is
a mixture of Sucralose, Dextrose and Maltodextrin. I usually use it at the
rate of one tablespoon per gallon which just takes the dry-edge off for our
tastes.
Ray
I've never used Saccharin for sweetening cider. "Splenda" is a better choice
for me: either by adding the tablets and allowing to dissolve, or by adding
a teaspoon (5 ml) or tablespoon (15 ml) of the powder. The Splenda powder is
a mixture of Sucralose, Dextrose and Maltodextrin. I usually use it at the
rate of one tablespoon per gallon which just takes the dry-edge off for our
tastes.
Ray
Andrew Lea
Nov 22, 2009, 3:22:14 PM11/22/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Orchard eye wrote:
>
> Re not natural. Andrew, What is the natural alternative ?
1. Keeving or some variant thereof eg repeated racking. This is highly
>
> Re not natural. Andrew, What is the natural alternative ?
skilled, needs the correct choice of fruit to start with and at best is
unpredictable. Hence saccharin has become the cheap and cheerful
farmhouse 'workaround' for the last century.
2. Back sweetening with sugar and pasteurisation. Totally reliable (if
done correctly) but heavy on the technology.
3. Learn to love dry cider if you can and stop pretending that
saccharin-sweetened cider is in any way 'natural'.
My overall point, if I haven't made it yet, is that cider is not a
'natural' product in any shape or form. It is an artefact of human
ingenuity. The extent of the artifice is up to you but artifice there
will be!
Orchard eye
Nov 22, 2009, 4:40:51 PM11/22/09
to Cider Workshop
Hi all
Re saccharin v Splenda
Pros for Saccharin
At least two well respected and "traditional" cider makers in Somerset
use saccharin to sweeten their cider and the effect is quite pleasing
and tasty, though personally I prefer the dry cider (sometimes with a
dash of sweet)
You only need to use a tiny amount to sweeten the cider
Cons
Aftertaste ?
most unnatural option
Pros for Splenda
Slightly more natural choice
no aftertaste
Cons
you need a larger amount.
Is that correct Andrew, Ray, Heather
Re using natural Sugar.
Some small scale (not professional) cider makers that I know add a tsp
of sugar (white, as there is no aftertaste etc) to each bottle of
cider.
Question is, how long until the cider begins to ferment again i.e. how
quicky should it be drunk or because the cider is sealed, is it the
case that hardly any fermentation takes place.
Sorry if these are silly questions, I'm still learning.
Last thing,
Andrew wrote...
"cider is not a
'natural' product in any shape or form. It is an artefact of human
ingenuity. The extent of the artifice is up to you but artifice there
will be! "
But surely...
Apples crushed for juice, juice ferments, drink juice, fall over .
That must be natural !!
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
Re saccharin v Splenda
Pros for Saccharin
At least two well respected and "traditional" cider makers in Somerset
use saccharin to sweeten their cider and the effect is quite pleasing
and tasty, though personally I prefer the dry cider (sometimes with a
dash of sweet)
You only need to use a tiny amount to sweeten the cider
Cons
Aftertaste ?
most unnatural option
Pros for Splenda
Slightly more natural choice
no aftertaste
Cons
you need a larger amount.
Is that correct Andrew, Ray, Heather
Re using natural Sugar.
Some small scale (not professional) cider makers that I know add a tsp
of sugar (white, as there is no aftertaste etc) to each bottle of
cider.
Question is, how long until the cider begins to ferment again i.e. how
quicky should it be drunk or because the cider is sealed, is it the
case that hardly any fermentation takes place.
Sorry if these are silly questions, I'm still learning.
Last thing,
Andrew wrote...
"cider is not a
'natural' product in any shape or form. It is an artefact of human
ingenuity. The extent of the artifice is up to you but artifice there
will be! "
Apples crushed for juice, juice ferments, drink juice, fall over .
That must be natural !!
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
Andrew Lea
Nov 22, 2009, 5:41:54 PM11/22/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Saccharin and sucralose are both artificial and both equally un-natural
compared to sugar so no difference on that account! Saccharin has been
around a lot longer than sucralose but should only be regarded as
traditional if you regard the motor car as more traditional than the
horse. Saccharin was quickly adopted by farm and factory cider makers in
the 1900's because it suddenly gave them a means of making sweet and
stable ciders without having to go through all the proper care and
attention that is required to make a naturally sweet cider by truly
traditional means (i.e with many centuries of history) such as keeving.
As is usual and understandable, people take the easiest way out. After
100 years, unfortunately this practice has now become regarded in some
quarters as 'tradition'.
Relative sweetness values are given all over the internet eg here
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/549sweet.html
Sucralose is actually twice as sweet as saccharin so you actually need
less of the pure chemical. But I stress 'pure chemical' because if you
use the formulated retail forms they are all adjusted for bulk density
as I explained. The only sure way is to TRY IT on a small scale, choose
what suits, and then scale up. The amount you need will depend on other
perception factors eg the amount of acid in the cider.
If you add sugar (sucrose) a good rule of thumb is to keep no longer
than 2 weeks or re-fermentation will likely set in by then unless you
pasteurise. Sealing it will not prevent that, in fact it is most unwise
as it will give you a bottle bomb and maybe take someone's eye out.
Finally .. no, there is absolutely nothing natural about crushing apples
to a liquid juice, putting the juice into a more or less closed barrel
and letting it ferment under a build-up of CO2 which severely changes
the normal yeast metabolism to give alcohol by anaerobic respiration.
Only human beings do that. It does not happen in nature.
I am being deliberately provocative and trying to encourage people to
stop and examine their use of words like 'natural' and 'traditional' and
what they really mean in the context of cider, because I believe a lot
of doublethink and self-deception goes on here.
Andrew
compared to sugar so no difference on that account! Saccharin has been
around a lot longer than sucralose but should only be regarded as
traditional if you regard the motor car as more traditional than the
horse. Saccharin was quickly adopted by farm and factory cider makers in
the 1900's because it suddenly gave them a means of making sweet and
stable ciders without having to go through all the proper care and
attention that is required to make a naturally sweet cider by truly
traditional means (i.e with many centuries of history) such as keeving.
As is usual and understandable, people take the easiest way out. After
100 years, unfortunately this practice has now become regarded in some
quarters as 'tradition'.
Relative sweetness values are given all over the internet eg here
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/549sweet.html
Sucralose is actually twice as sweet as saccharin so you actually need
less of the pure chemical. But I stress 'pure chemical' because if you
use the formulated retail forms they are all adjusted for bulk density
as I explained. The only sure way is to TRY IT on a small scale, choose
what suits, and then scale up. The amount you need will depend on other
perception factors eg the amount of acid in the cider.
If you add sugar (sucrose) a good rule of thumb is to keep no longer
than 2 weeks or re-fermentation will likely set in by then unless you
pasteurise. Sealing it will not prevent that, in fact it is most unwise
as it will give you a bottle bomb and maybe take someone's eye out.
Finally .. no, there is absolutely nothing natural about crushing apples
to a liquid juice, putting the juice into a more or less closed barrel
and letting it ferment under a build-up of CO2 which severely changes
the normal yeast metabolism to give alcohol by anaerobic respiration.
Only human beings do that. It does not happen in nature.
I am being deliberately provocative and trying to encourage people to
stop and examine their use of words like 'natural' and 'traditional' and
what they really mean in the context of cider, because I believe a lot
of doublethink and self-deception goes on here.
Andrew
Cheshire Matt
Nov 23, 2009, 2:40:03 AM11/23/09
to Cider Workshop
On Nov 22, 10:41 pm, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> I am being deliberately provocative and trying to encourage people to
> stop and examine their use of words like 'natural' and 'traditional' and
> what they really mean in the context of cider, because I believe a lot
> of doublethink and self-deception goes on here.
Hear, hear.
> I am being deliberately provocative and trying to encourage people to
> stop and examine their use of words like 'natural' and 'traditional' and
> what they really mean in the context of cider, because I believe a lot
> of doublethink and self-deception goes on here.
Mark Shirley
Nov 23, 2009, 3:08:41 AM11/23/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Sucralose is actually twice as sweet as saccharin so you actually need
> less of the pure chemical. But I stress 'pure chemical' because if you
> use the formulated retail forms they are all adjusted for bulk density
> as I explained. The only sure way is to TRY IT on a small scale, choose
> what suits, and then scale up. The amount you need will depend on other
> perception factors eg the amount of acid in the cider.
>
> Andrew
> less of the pure chemical. But I stress 'pure chemical' because if you
> use the formulated retail forms they are all adjusted for bulk density
> as I explained. The only sure way is to TRY IT on a small scale, choose
> what suits, and then scale up. The amount you need will depend on other
> perception factors eg the amount of acid in the cider.
>
>
I've noticed that when I sample a cider ready for barreling straight from
the fermenter it can appear to have a little sweetness, yet by the time it's
been racked into barrel/box this sweeteness may have gone. I've assumed this
is due to dissolved CO2 in the cider being driven off during racking. Is
this another example of other factors affecting the percieved sweetness of a
cider, ie. a sparkling cider can appear sweeter than it really is?
Incidentally, I assume that Sucralose is still not on the prescribed list of
addiditves for cider, and is therefore not allowed in a cider for sale.
Mark
http://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/
http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/
Stephen Hayes
Nov 23, 2009, 3:57:10 AM11/23/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
As a doctor as well as a fruit grower and small scale (personal use only)
cider maker I totally agree. Words like 'natural' are used in a way that is
loaded with meaningless meaning. As I wrote on my web site in a counterblast
against the anti-crop protection brigade, you can't control destructive
'natural' pests and diseases by thinking beautiful thoughts or singing to
the trees, and 'Mother Nature' doesn't care whether you live or die. I don't
want to know if an agricultural, horticultural or food or drink production
process is 'natural' I want to know if its is reasonable, safe, cost
effective etc.
This really matters because EU and other over-regulation, which affects us
all, is often driven or allowed by strong public feelings about what is
'natural' or not.
regards Stephen
cider maker I totally agree. Words like 'natural' are used in a way that is
loaded with meaningless meaning. As I wrote on my web site in a counterblast
against the anti-crop protection brigade, you can't control destructive
'natural' pests and diseases by thinking beautiful thoughts or singing to
the trees, and 'Mother Nature' doesn't care whether you live or die. I don't
want to know if an agricultural, horticultural or food or drink production
process is 'natural' I want to know if its is reasonable, safe, cost
effective etc.
This really matters because EU and other over-regulation, which affects us
all, is often driven or allowed by strong public feelings about what is
'natural' or not.
regards Stephen
Dennis Bancroft
Nov 23, 2009, 4:34:55 AM11/23/09
to cider group
Absolutely agree!
I often walk my dogs by fields of short stemmed wheat. This stuff is less than half the height of the wheat of 50 years ago. The yield is better and there isn't anything like the loss to wind and rain damage. This has been achieved my selective breeding (a human activity since before pontius was a pilot).
So, Human intervention = food to eat, Nature = famine, we have a choice.
pip pip
Dennis
I often walk my dogs by fields of short stemmed wheat. This stuff is less than half the height of the wheat of 50 years ago. The yield is better and there isn't anything like the loss to wind and rain damage. This has been achieved my selective breeding (a human activity since before pontius was a pilot).
So, Human intervention = food to eat, Nature = famine, we have a choice.
pip pip
Dennis
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Orchard eye
Nov 23, 2009, 5:32:13 AM11/23/09
to Cider Workshop
I am being deliberately provocative and trying to encourage people to
> stop and examine their use of words like 'natural' and 'traditional' and
> what they really mean in the context of cider, because I believe a lot
> of doublethink and self-deception goes on here.
I guess traditional isn't a bad word if the process has been followed
> stop and examine their use of words like 'natural' and 'traditional' and
> what they really mean in the context of cider, because I believe a lot
> of doublethink and self-deception goes on here.
for the past 100 years or so, but I take your point, as I said we only
want to sweeten a portion of our cider.
Am I safe using the phrase 'Craft Cider' ?
Neil.
> View your other email accounts from your Hotmail inbox. Add them now.http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394592/direct/01/
pigsinpingle
Nov 23, 2009, 5:55:01 AM11/23/09
to Cider Workshop
Having read the recent cries for posts to be on topic recently do you
not think this one has changed considerably from it's title!
Glenn
> _________________________________________________________________
> View your other email accounts from your Hotmail inbox. Add them now.http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394592/direct/01/
not think this one has changed considerably from it's title!
Glenn
> View your other email accounts from your Hotmail inbox. Add them now.http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394592/direct/01/
Ray Blockley
Nov 23, 2009, 6:09:59 AM11/23/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Craft Cider or even Real Cider are fine, I'd suggest.
Ray
Ray
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Orchard eye" <neilphil...@btopenworld.com>
To: "Cider Workshop" <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Orchard eye" <neilphil...@btopenworld.com>
To: "Cider Workshop" <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Andrew Lea
Nov 23, 2009, 6:32:19 AM11/23/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
pigsinpingle wrote:
> Having read the recent cries for posts to be on topic recently do you
> not think this one has changed considerably from it's title!
I think most of us are too frightened to change it now for fear we do wrong!
> Having read the recent cries for posts to be on topic recently do you
> not think this one has changed considerably from it's title!
Andrew
John W. List
Nov 23, 2009, 7:13:18 AM11/23/09
to Cider Workshop
> I am being deliberately provocative and trying to encourage people to
> stop and examine their use of words like 'natural' and 'traditional' and
> what they really mean in the context of cider, because I believe a lot
> of doublethink and self-deception goes on here.
Extremely valid, I'd never considered my cider to be anything but
> stop and examine their use of words like 'natural' and 'traditional' and
> what they really mean in the context of cider, because I believe a lot
> of doublethink and self-deception goes on here.
natural, however since you put it that way I have to concede you're
right.
On the sweetener question, has anyone on here tried Synsepalum
dulcificum?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_fruit
A fruit that has the effect of making sour things taste sweet. I'd be
curious to know whether its juice or extract could be used to fool a
drinker into believing an acid cider (or for the pedants in the case
of added berries: made wine) was in fact sweet.
JWL
Orchard eye
Nov 23, 2009, 11:16:35 AM11/23/09
to Cider Workshop
Thanks for all your advice on Barrels, sweetners, names etc
Following Andrews comments on how to describe your cider I guess I'll
stick to Craft Cider or at a Stretch 'Traditional' ( or possibly 'Yuk'
if it all goes horrible wrong ! )
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
Following Andrews comments on how to describe your cider I guess I'll
stick to Craft Cider or at a Stretch 'Traditional' ( or possibly 'Yuk'
if it all goes horrible wrong ! )
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
willfaulds
Nov 24, 2009, 9:32:10 AM11/24/09
to Cider Workshop
Hello All,
So back to the barrels...
What do people think are the main pros and cons of barrels vs. plastic
tanks. We've been seriously considering fermenting in Oak casks or
IBCs. I think most barrels on the market are ex red wine does this
change anything?
We've considered splitting the process between the two - what
advantages could this give?
Thanks,
Will
So back to the barrels...
What do people think are the main pros and cons of barrels vs. plastic
tanks. We've been seriously considering fermenting in Oak casks or
IBCs. I think most barrels on the market are ex red wine does this
change anything?
We've considered splitting the process between the two - what
advantages could this give?
Thanks,
Will
Julian Back
Nov 24, 2009, 10:07:44 AM11/24/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Hecks (of Street in Somerset) do a single variety "Port Wine of Glastonbury" cider which is aged or maybe fermented on red wine casks (not sure which). I think the red wine barrels add a distinctive flavour which I enjoyed but might not be to everyone's taste.
Andrew Lea
Nov 24, 2009, 11:14:57 AM11/24/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
willfaulds wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> So back to the barrels...
>
> What do people think are the main pros and cons of barrels vs. plastic
> tanks. We've been seriously considering fermenting in Oak casks or
> IBCs. I think most barrels on the market are ex red wine does this
> change anything?
If I was buying from new i can see no possible advantage to fermentation
> Hello All,
>
> So back to the barrels...
>
> What do people think are the main pros and cons of barrels vs. plastic
> tanks. We've been seriously considering fermenting in Oak casks or
> IBCs. I think most barrels on the market are ex red wine does this
> change anything?
in wooden barrel now in the 21st century (let alone the cost). 50 years
ago there was little alternative. They are tricky to keep clean and
maintain - see the Barrel Care pages from Pollard and Beech
"Cidermaking" (1957) on my website as http://cider.org.uk/barrel_care.pdf
I would only consider barrels for fermenting if I were given some or
already had a load and they were in really good nick.
For ageing ... well, there's another thing. They might have a value
there. We have already had this discussion so I will not repeat it.
Orchard eye
Nov 24, 2009, 11:51:13 AM11/24/09
to Cider Workshop
I love the idea of having at least one wood barrel for aging the
cider, preferably from southern europe with a exotic location branded
on the front and with full history to excite the drinkers. Then wait
and see what flavour (if any ?) is imparted into the cider. I do
realize though that health and safety issues then come into play but
for pure joy art/experimentation, great fun !
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
On Nov 24, 4:14 pm, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> willfaulds wrote:
> > Hello All,
>
> > So back to the barrels...
>
> > What do people think are the main pros and cons of barrels vs. plastic
> > tanks. We've been seriously considering fermenting in Oak casks or
> > IBCs. I think most barrels on the market are ex red wine does this
> > change anything?
>
> If I was buying from new i can see no possible advantage to fermentation
> in wooden barrel now in the 21st century (let alone the cost). 50 years
> ago there was little alternative. They are tricky to keep clean and
> maintain - see the Barrel Care pages from Pollard and Beech
> "Cidermaking" (1957) on my website ashttp://cider.org.uk/barrel_care.pdf
cider, preferably from southern europe with a exotic location branded
on the front and with full history to excite the drinkers. Then wait
and see what flavour (if any ?) is imparted into the cider. I do
realize though that health and safety issues then come into play but
for pure joy art/experimentation, great fun !
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
On Nov 24, 4:14 pm, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> willfaulds wrote:
> > Hello All,
>
> > So back to the barrels...
>
> > What do people think are the main pros and cons of barrels vs. plastic
> > tanks. We've been seriously considering fermenting in Oak casks or
> > IBCs. I think most barrels on the market are ex red wine does this
> > change anything?
>
> If I was buying from new i can see no possible advantage to fermentation
> in wooden barrel now in the 21st century (let alone the cost). 50 years
> ago there was little alternative. They are tricky to keep clean and
> maintain - see the Barrel Care pages from Pollard and Beech
Rich Anderson
Nov 24, 2009, 1:45:22 PM11/24/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Rich Anderson
Westcott Bay Cider
The main problem with used barrels, while attractive is keeping them clean
and tight. Used barrels are sold because they no longer work for the reason
they were purchased. New barrels are quite costly, for a new winery they
constitute a major outlay of capital as well as regular care.
A good number of years ago, I was helping make family wine and we purchased
used whiskey barrels obtained at a reasonable price. To condition them, the
hoop and top at one end was removed and scoured using a power grinder to
remove the charred interior surfaces. A dirty job, but the reconditioned
barrels lasted for a number of years if they were cleaned and sanitized
after each use. If allowed to sit uncleaned for any period of time they
would pass off-flavors when reused.
My two cents is to pass on the wood and purchase stainless steel containers
as the budget allows. Cleaning is easy and there is no loss of product. Just
one less thing to worry about in the cidery, think of them as a good
investment in both time and money.
from Heather
Nov 24, 2009, 2:13:03 PM11/24/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Rich Anderson
> Westcott Bay Cider
>
> My two cents is to pass on the wood and purchase stainless steel containers
> as the budget allows. Cleaning is easy and there is no loss of product. Just
> one less thing to worry about in the cidery, think of them as a good
> investment in both time and money.
>
> as the budget allows. Cleaning is easy and there is no loss of product. Just
> one less thing to worry about in the cidery, think of them as a good
> investment in both time and money.
>
I keep wondering if I can convert my folk's former milk tank into something usuable for cider. It is stainless steel, and quite large. I don't know how big, but it would contain up to 5 milkings worth of 60 Holstein cow's milk. It has a large faucet at the bottom to empty the tank, and that is where the washer would hook up to clean it afterwards. Draw backs are that it has a large opening at the top for the milk to enter the tank via gravity while passing through two filters. This opening has a flip top lid. Secondly, it has milk paddles to stir the milk, and a refigeration system to keep the milk below 40 degrees F. Those do not need to be turned on, but it makes me wonder if there is yet another hole due to the paddles being inside and the motor being outside. The whole thing is enclosed in the "milk house" made of cinder blocks.
Any thoughts?
Heather
Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
Any thoughts?
Heather
Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now.
Stephen Hayes
Nov 24, 2009, 2:44:06 PM11/24/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
I have had WONDEFRUL cider from an ex rum barrel, 'aquired
taste' cider from an ex Islay whisky barrel, drained away cider from a barrel
that leaked, and foul cider from a barrel that got contaminated. I am now using
polythene vessels, and apart from my last whisky barrel, which I sold to Glen
(most of the whisky taste having been leached out) all my old barrels are
now being used as garden furniture, water butts and in one case maturing
vinegar.
Proulx and Nichols had a lot to say about oak casks-they
can be good, or bad. Certainly risky unless folks are very careful and really
know what they are doing.
That said, Julia Temperley is an enthusiast for oak
maturation and his cider is excellent
Stephen
--
Rich Anderson
Nov 24, 2009, 2:45:45 PM11/24/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Some commercial producers use dairy tanks. A nice feature is the ability to cool the cider when it is carbonated and bottled. The downside is capacity, you need a lot of juice to fill it and when you rack you need an equivalent sized tank to hold the cider.
Timmy R
Nov 25, 2009, 7:27:06 AM11/25/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> What do people think are the main pros and cons of barrels vs. plastic
> tanks.
Cheers,
Tim
homeb...@me.com
BN Army Air Corps http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/
East Side Brewers http://www.eastsidebrewers.org/
from Heather
Nov 29, 2009, 12:39:09 PM11/29/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
All the wineries and Wandering Aegnus in this region were open for tastings this post-Thanksgiving weekend. I asked one of the founders of Willamette Vineyard, which is probably the largest vineyard in Oregon, what they do to have a semi-dry/semi-sweet wine. I was totally expecting her to say they centerfuge (sp?) it, but she said they would drop the temperature on the wine to kill off the yeast. I thought this was sort off odd, because I thought that dropping the temperature just suspended fermentation, but that it would start back up again if the temperature was to rise. Or is the higher alcohol content coming into play a little more here?
Heather
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:22:14 +0000
> From: y...@cider.org.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Is the taste in the Barrel ?
Heather
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:22:14 +0000
> From: y...@cider.org.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Is the taste in the Barrel ?
> --
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Dries Muylaert
Nov 29, 2009, 1:18:04 PM11/29/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Low temperatures make fermentation impossible, 0-4 Celcius. The yeast cells are than no longer in movement because there is no more co2 to stir up the most. The cells drop and you can rake off the wine. Perhaps possible to ad a clearing agent where the cells attach to, dropping of faster.
But I doubt they don't ad a micro filtration or chemical killer to be on the safe side. After all, if not all cells are removed by gravity you'll get a slow bottle fermentation. As in a good cider. Not what you would want in wine.
Andrew Lea
Nov 29, 2009, 2:04:37 PM11/29/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
from Heather wrote:
>
> what they do to have a semi-dry/semi-sweet wine. I was totally expecting
> her to say they centerfuge (sp?) it, but she said they would drop the
> temperature on the wine to kill off the yeast. I thought this was sort
> off odd, because I thought that dropping the temperature just suspended
> fermentation, but that it would start back up again if the temperature
> was to rise. Or is the higher alcohol content coming into play a little
> more here?
The lower temperature will stop the yeast working but you are right, by
>
> what they do to have a semi-dry/semi-sweet wine. I was totally expecting
> her to say they centerfuge (sp?) it, but she said they would drop the
> temperature on the wine to kill off the yeast. I thought this was sort
> off odd, because I thought that dropping the temperature just suspended
> fermentation, but that it would start back up again if the temperature
> was to rise. Or is the higher alcohol content coming into play a little
> more here?
itself that will not be enough. See here from Ralph Kunkee at UC Davis
Oenolgy Dept for what might happen next
http://listproc.ucdavis.edu/archives/ven3051/log0508/0005.html
The higher alcohol vs cider (around twice as much) also helps.
Stephen Linne
Nov 29, 2009, 3:18:42 PM11/29/09
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Centrifuge will not totally remove the yeast. Most wineries membrane filter semisweet wines, add sulfites and potassium sorbate in the event any yeast gets through the membrane. Many yeasts used commercially today can tolerate higher alcohol. That is how we are getting wines with upwards of 17% without fortification, so higher alcohol alone will not assure no refermentation.Steve Linne
Blacksmiths Winery
Blacksmiths Winery
Original message
Received: 11/29/2009 12:39:09 PM
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Re: Is the taste in the Barrel ?
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Re: Is the taste in the Barrel ?
All the wineries and Wandering Aegnus in this region were open for tastings this post-Thanksgiving weekend. I asked one of the founders of Willamette Vineyard, which is probably the largest vineyard in Oregon, what they do to have a semi-dry/semi-sweet wine. I was totally expecting her to say they centerfuge (sp?) it, but she said they would drop the temperature on the wine to kill off the yeast. I thought this was sort off odd, because I thought that dropping the temperature just suspended fermentation, but that it would start back up again if the temperature was to rise. Or is the higher alcohol content coming into play a little more here?
Heather
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:22:14 +0000
> From: y...@cider.org.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Is the taste in the Barrel ?
>
> Orchard eye wrote:
>
> >
> > Re not natural. Andrew, What is the natural alternative ?
>
> 1. Keeving or some variant thereof eg repeated racking. This is highly
> skilled, needs the correct choice of fruit to start with and at best is
> unpredictable. Hence saccharin has become the cheap and cheerful
> farmhouse 'workaround' for the last century.
>
> 2. Back sweetening with sugar and pasteurisation. Totally reliable (if
> done correctly) but heavy on the technology.
>
> 3. Learn to love dry cider if you can and stop pretending that
> saccharin-sweetened cider is in any way 'natural'.
>
> My overall point, if I haven't made it yet, is that cider is not a
> 'natural' product in any shape or form. It is an artefact of human
> ingenuity. The extent of the artifice is up to you but artifice there
> will be!
>
Heather
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:22:14 +0000
> From: y...@cider.org.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Is the taste in the Barrel ?
>
> Orchard eye wrote:
>
> >
> > Re not natural. Andrew, What is the natural alternative ?
>
> 1. Keeving or some variant thereof eg repeated racking. This is highly
> skilled, needs the correct choice of fruit to start with and at best is
> unpredictable. Hence saccharin has become the cheap and cheerful
> farmhouse 'workaround' for the last century.
>
> 2. Back sweetening with sugar and pasteurisation. Totally reliable (if
> done correctly) but heavy on the technology.
>
> 3. Learn to love dry cider if you can and stop pretending that
> saccharin-sweetened cider is in any way 'natural'.
>
> My overall point, if I haven't made it yet, is that cider is not a
> 'natural' product in any shape or form. It is an artefact of human
> ingenuity. The extent of the artifice is up to you but artifice there
> will be!
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Cider Workshop group.
> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> To unsub from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Cider Workshop group.
> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> To unsub from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
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