RE: [Cider Workshop] International Cider Competition

[Cheshire Matt]

Well, those are just the winners... Maybe the entrants were more international, but just happens these were the best ciders/perries?

A random sample from a population should be representative of the population, but one hopes a competition involving and element of judgement and selection isn't random!



Nick Edwards <ni...@ciderniks.com> wrote:

Not very international!

Nick

Sent from my Windows phone.
Nick Edwards, Ciderniks
07885 296789

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From: Jez Howat
Sent: 16/5/13 14:12
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] International Cider Competition

All,

Please find following the results of the cider competition held yesterday at
the Cider Museum in Hereford. Congratulations to all who won stuff -
especially to those who frequent the Cider Workshop!!!

Next stop, Bath and West (and without a doubt the largest cider competition
in the world with over 500 entries this year!!)

All the best

Jez

OVERALL CHAMPION  - Oliver's Cider & Perry, Ocle Pychard, Herefordshire
(Perry - Medium/Sweet)
Class 1 - Dry Cider
First Peter Domanski, Stretfordbury, Leominster, Herefordshire

Second Pips Cider, Dorstone, Herefordshire
Third Swallowfields Real Cider & Perry, Hope Mansell,
Herefordshire

Class 2 - Medium Cider
First Woodredding Cider & Perry, Yatton, Ross-on-Wye,
Herefordshire
Second Burrow Hill Cider, Martock, Somerset
Third Gwatkin Cider Co Ltd, Abbey Dore, Herefordshire

Class 3 - Sweet Cider
First Burrow Hill Cider, Martock, Somerset
Second Pips Cider, Dorstone, Herefordshire
Third Guy Lawrence, Much Marcle, Herefordshire

Class 4 - Perry - Dry
First Stuart Cooper, Checkley, Hereford
Second Troggi, Earlswood, Monmouthshire
Third Thatchers Cider, Sandford, Somerset

Class 5 - Perry - Medium/Sweet
First Oliver's Cider & Perry, Ocle Pychard, Herefordshire
Second Once Upon A Tree Ltd, Ledbury, Herefordshire
Third Gwatkin Cider Co Ltd, Abbey Dore, Herefordshire

Class 6 - Single Variety Cider
First Guy Lawrence, Much Marcle, Herefordshire
Second Woodredding Cider & Perry, Yatton, Ross-on-Wye,
Herefordshire
Third Barnes & Adams, Wotton-under-Edge, Gloucestershire

Class 7 - In-Bottle Fermented Cider or Perry
First Once Upon A Tree Ltd, Ledbury, Herefordshire
Second Biddenden Vineyards, Biddenden, Kent
Third Richard Johnson, Okehampton, Devon
Highly Commended Burrow Hill Cider, Martock, Somerset

Class 8 - Best Presented Packaged Cider or Perry
First Priors Tipple, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Second Ashridge Cider, Totnes, Devon
Third Thatchers Cider, Sandford, Somerset

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[skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk]

Excellent point Matt.

The results could be a validation of the superior quality of cider and perry made in the area or might demonstrate a preference (deliberate or sub-conscious) for the taste of cider/perry from that area on the part of the judges.

Best wishes

Guy

[Cheshire Matt]

Well Gabe's local/Hfds, but Bob's Somerset based. Third judge eludes me at the mo.

[Jez Howat]

Jean Nowell

I think perhaps you are thinking about it too much. Western style is more likely to win in Hereford... But an excellent Eastern cider is worth a shot (and I have yet to see a contest that distinguishes)

Having said that perhaps the title is a little misleading. But not in a sinister way.

Jez 

Sent from my iPhone

[Andrew Lea]

On 18/05/2013 09:57, Jez Howat wrote:

>
> Having said that perhaps the title is a little misleading. But not in a
> sinister way.

Don't see why it's misleading. International entries are welcomed and
encouraged, though they are not placed in a category of their own as
they are at Bath and West. To my knowledge there have been at least 2
American winners at Hereford in recent years. I would accept though that
if the judges are drawn from the UK West Country cider community as they
mostly are, then other styles of cider might be at a disadvantage.
Personally I feel it would be good if at least one of our major
competitions could open a new class for ciders made from dessert fruit,
but nobody's done that yet!

Andrew


--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Ray Blockley]

This is something we've discussed before and I experienced at Powerstock - geographical location has a big bearing on what folks expect to taste in a cider. And no matter how well it is made and fault free, if the fruit used gives characteristics different to what the drinker is expecting, then it may not score very highly.

 

But this is no different from someone who likes pale hoppy beers being expected to enjoy and give a high mark for example a Mild or heavy Stout. Or a red wine drinker understanding the profile of a fine Alsace Gewurztraminer. 

 

So you take your chances, enjoy it and go with the flow :)

 

I've been asked to take some cider to competitions in the South West to show that decent well-made *but different* ciders can be made outside of the South West and with fruit grown outside of the South West. I wouldn't expect to score highly or show in any rankings, but it's all fun and helps spread the word and show the wide differences in flavours and styles achievable - without resorting to alien adjuncts [but that's another story!]

Cheers, Ray 

--------

Ray B

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[Gabe Cook]

Andrew is spot on regarding the nature of the word 'International' in this competition.  Entries are encouraged from around the world (there were a couple this year), and indeed there have been International winners in the past.

 

Although this year's judges were West Country (Herefordshire, Gloucestershire and Somerset), we judged each entry on merit and as objectively as possible.  The winner of the Single Variety Cider (Class 6), although a Herefordshire Cider, was in fact a Cox's SV.  I judged this class, and it was a close call between the Cox and a Yarlington Mill SV.  The Yarlie was excellent, everything you could want from a strong, rich bittersweet SV.  But the delicacy, subtleness and finesse of the Cox meant that it won by a nose.

 

I think we're starting to see ciders, regardless of apple type or style, being rewarded at competitions on merit, rather than because they adhere to the convential style.  Jez's success at Putley, along with some cracking other Eastern Counties style ciders from Pig Street Press that came in 5/6th in their respective categories shows this.

 

 

 

 

 

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[Jez Howat]

... Except perhaps that Hampshire Heritage isn't eastern counties as it has 50% cider varieties in:)

Competitions are always going to be a source of debate - whether peer judged or expert judged!

I would agree with Andrew though that perhaps there are sufficient Eastern style producers to create a new category to reward the best. Competition helps drive up quality and standards, and I do feel this would benefit a number of eastern style producers!

Jez

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[Alan Stone]

Hi All

 

An intersting discussion that has got me into trouble before - but I will try to offer a different perspective hopefully without offending anyone.

 

I happened to be doing some judging for the cider class for a prestigeous foodie competition yesterday. I think there were about 80 different bottled ciders from alround the UK, Ireland and even Italy.

 

There was a mixture of styles and clearly 'West Country' traditional ciders are very different from those using higher proportions of dessert and cookers - I think the 'Eastern' label is misleading.

 

However as a fellow judge pointed out the clearest differentiator between what came across as good and not so good ciders was the taste of the sweetening. This was very much to the fore in far too many of the samples.

 

Without wishing to be taken at my word - my general impression was that those ciders (the majority) which were made away from the West Country tended to have a much greater relience on sweeteners and they were less subtly used. I suspect some of them were having trouble balancing acidic fruit.

 

That said away from this competition I do know of the sweets of some West Country Cidermakers that have an appalling taste of added Sacharrin!

 

Alan Stone

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[Jez Howat]

Alan,

I am curious to understand why you wouldn't regard a cider made from dessert apples isn't eastern style - as it clearly is. Not so sure about cooker, although just as cider varieties were traditionally a product of the west the east of the UK was known for its dessert fruit.

Having tried sweetening eastern cider I have always found it is more sensitive to added sweetener than tannic, western ciders. So at least I agree with you on one thing.

Jez

Sent from my iPhone

[Cheshire Matt]

FWIW I don't agree with the "Western" and "Eastern" terminology...  I automatically do a translation to "includes fruit with tannin (probably cider varieties, but could be crabs)" and "mainly dessert or culinary fruit with low tannin".   Bit of a mouthful, but... :)

For example, my dry cider is mainly Hfdshire Dab/Michelin and few others, with a splash of Cheshire culinaries.  Last time I looked on Google Maps, both those counties are in the West of the UK...  It's just been reviewed by Nick of TheCiderBlog and he said "a good mix of eastern & western cider".  So I know the terminology, but it's shorthand rather than an accurate descriptor.

Of course (and I'm surprised Ray hasn't already chipped in with this!) it's possible with experience and knowing what you're doing to make a culinary/dessert cider that is balanced and doesn't need anything to mask high acidity.  But we know that this happens a lot because of makers with less experience and no access to tannic fruit. 

To my simple thinking, tannic ciders can take sweetening more, because there's more complex flavours there to buffer the addition.  With bad (ie over) sweetening, to my taste you do get a completely separate sweet taste (bitter or otherwise) that is almost separate in the timing of when you taste it to the main taste of the cider - quite off putting.

Matt

[Ray Blockley]

I was biting my tongue, Matt... :-)

 

Likewise as an "eastern counties" area we grow our own KB's Tremletts, Dabinetts, Yarlingtons, Foxwhelps, Stoke Reds, etc etc etc. so the "counties" generalisation can only be that - and a very rough one.  We also use some Herefords cider-fruit when available (and note such on our ciders), and still like to mess with dessert / crab / dual-use fruit. I try to avoid culinary fruit as much as possible.

 

Mustn't forget terroir too!

 

I'd just add to Matt's comments that we also see a number of makers who are "jumping on the cider bandwagon" and using "any old fruit"; or shipping in any-old apple juice from anywhere around the UK. There is no substitute for time spent learning your craft and understanding the science. 

 

There is still the opinion held by many that making cider is a licence to print money - sadly. And if it is too sharp, just bung in sweeteners or alien adjuncts in the form of fruit, herbs or spices - and then a bit more saccharin...

 

Cheers, Ray 

 

--------

Ray B

From: Cheshire Matt <goo...@camelid.net>
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 18 May 2013, 12:41
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] International Cider Competition

[Jez Howat]

Sure, I would accept that western and eastern are shorthand. But I would refer to them as 'traditions' rather than rules! It's too simple to get fundamental about cider - but western style or tradition is, to me, accurate and proper enough when tasting a cider.

It doesn't all have to fit into boxes though.

Jez

[Alan Stone]

My point was only that Eastern style suggests a geographical tendency - there were eastern style ciders from all over the uk Whereas West country ciders tended to come more from the West Country / source of apples

Sent from my iPhone

[Jez Howat]

I understand that the eastern counties tradition of cidermaking is as established as the western tradition Alan… see this link taken from Andrews site:

 

http://www.cider.org.uk/Notes%20Towards%20a%20History%20of%20Norfolk%20Cider.pdf

 

I do wish these discussions wouldn’t always boil down to whether west is more traditional/established/real than east (usually by people ingrained in a particular ‘camp’). I still like the terms and feel that both are valid both historically and as a tradition of cidermaking.

 

Jez

[Ted Bruning]

Indeed, one of the first records of cidermaking comes from Banham in Norfolk in 1204! But traditions notwithstanding, someone ought to investigate why in modern times craft cidermaking hasn't taken off in the east as dramatically as it has in the west. I suspect it's something to do with different patterns of landowning but I'm probably wrong.

[Dick Dunn]

Ray wrote about geographical preferences influencing expectations and in
turn scoring, plus...

> But this is no different from someone who likes pale hoppy beers being expected to�enjoy and give a high mark for example a Mild or heavy Stout. Or a red wine drinker understanding the profile of a fine Alsace Gewurztraminer.�

There are two ways to get past this, things we do in the US--where cider
competition is judged very differently.

First is to split out categories, so for example tannic and non-tannic
ciders aren't head-to-head. This makes it easier to describe the
attributes of a "good" cider--simply, the target is smaller. This breaks
down at the "best of show" level, but that's always a challenge to judge,
and it's partially for the crowd and the media rather than strictly for
evaluating merit.

Defining the separate categories is a challenge, since they have to overlap
so that you don't leave good ciders in a no-man's-land. Naming them is
even more challenging! The discussion here shows that well.

Second way to level the field is a different attitude on judging, where
judges are trained to "judge to style" and it's considered bad form to
inject pure personal preference. This of course assumes that the judges
DO get trained as such--a major difference between UK and US comps, and
not to say that either is the "right way". It's also difficult with
less-experienced judges since they don't have experience of a whole
spectrum of tastes to fall back on. Plus, evaluating some aspects of a
cider such as "balance" have a big subjective aspect no matter what.

This is not to say that the US approach is better, just different. But
it does speak to the matter of judging very different styles.

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[greg l.]

I think since this thread is about an international competition you could introduce a third class - new world cider. With the extra sunshine the flavour is more fruity, different to English or French cider. I had a very sunny autumn and the super-ripe fruit made a very distinctive drink even without much tannin. So fruity it doesn't need much sweetening.
Greg

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Dick Dunn wrote:
> This is not to say that the US approach is better, just different.  But
> it does speak to the matter of judging very different styles.

Another interesting difference between the American way and the
English way in competitions is that is England, there are separate
classes for dry, medium and sweet, and there can be a winner in each
of those categories. While in the US, there are categories for North
American style, English style, French style, and in each, the residual
sugar may be anywhere between dry and sweet levels...
Claude

[Andrew Lea]

On 18/05/2013 23:36, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
>
> Another interesting difference between the American way and the
> English way in competitions is that is England, there are separate
> classes for dry, medium and sweet, and there can be a winner in each
> of those categories.

In today's world, the reason this classification persists is because it
makes it so much easier for the judges. Tasting a dry cider immediately
after a sweet one (or any wine or any foodstuff come to that) makes
assessment very difficult. That's just the physiology of taste.

However, I think the origins go far back into the 19th century, to the
days when it was possible to make ciders of different degrees of
sweetness by arresting fermentation at different points, and when
orchards had much lower nutrient status than today, hence making this
practicable. That was once part of the cidermaker's art, but almost lost
today. Nowadays, the three classes just represent the amount of sugar
(or maybe juice) that's been added post fermentation. The defining SG
bands represent an attempt to ensure that this sweetness comes only from
the addition of sugar, not from saccharin or other synthetic sweetener.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Andrew Lea wrote:
> However, I think the origins go far back into the 19th century, to the
> days when it was possible to make ciders of different degrees of
> sweetness by arresting fermentation at different points, and when
> orchards had much lower nutrient status than today, hence making this
> practicable. That was once part of the cidermaker's art, but almost lost
> today.

It is still possible, Andrew! Probably that it is just that it
requires some effort... Last fall, for a test, I tried to control the
fermentation of a batch consisting of market-bought mid-season apples:
Lobo and Paulared. These apples were grown in a commercial orchard,
hence full of nitrogen, and they aren't either late varieties which
naturally ferment slower. I didn't keeve either - it wouldn't have
worked as the natural fermentation kicked in very quickly. But it
still worked: I had to do an early first racking, followed by 3 other
rackings and I succeeded to stabilize it at an medium-dry level (SG
1.006). So, if it is possible with such apples, it should be possible
with almost any apples!
Claude

[Ted Bruning]

I wonder... if you grew a very sweet variety such as a Brandy Apple (if they still exist) on completely unmanured ground and then racked it from time to time, might you end up with a naturally sweet cider that had enough alcohol in it to make it worth drinking? A dessert cider, so to speak? Just a thought...

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[Mark Shirley]

Re: Brandy Apple. Still available, they have specimens at the Lyvedon New Build orchard. See this ancient blog post for pics: http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/remnants-of-old-often-neglected.html

 

Cheers, Mark

[Mike Beck]

I am curious why a commercial orchard is thought to be "full" of Nitrogen.
(As Claude Stated in International cider competition thread)
We have been performing Yeast Assimable Nitrogen tests on many cider blends
for several years. All from what would be commercial orchard operations.
Including my own orchards. There tends to be scant or negligible nitrogen
in any of the juice. There is either mis-conception about growing practices
or mis-conception about what types of nitrogen yeast actually use or both.

Here is what I can tell you about many growers I know and our own orchard.
We have not used a ground applied fertilizer of any sort in 15 years. Most
anybody I know would make well timed foliar applications if deficiencies
exists. I doubt any grower I know, whatever method they use to apply
nitrogen would ever apply more than needed. Too much nitrogen causes other
un-wanted issues; like too much wood growth which cost more for pruning and
risky for fireblite, let alone the cost of what is now a somewhat expensive
product. This is the theory in my corner of the apple growing world any way.
I want to know more.

Mike Beck
Uncle John's
St. John's, Michigan - USA

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[Andrew Lea]

On 19/05/2013 17:36, Mike Beck wrote:
> I am curious why a commercial orchard is thought to be "full" of Nitrogen.
>

I can only speak for the UK but here the standard nitrogen application
for mature cider orchards is 60 - 120 kg/ha depending on rainfall, tree
vigour etc. It is usually split between Spring (March) and late summer
(July/August) applications to counteract leaching and assimilation
issues. The leaf analysis guideline range of N is 2.0 - 2.5%. (Can't
give you the figures for UK dessert orchards - maybe someone else can
chip in with that).

>
> Too much nitrogen causes other
> un-wanted issues; like too much wood growth which cost more for pruning and
> risky for fireblite, let alone the cost of what is now a somewhat expensive
> product.

That is all true, and excess nitrogen also adversely affects storage
potential and flavour quality in dessert fruit. But that is of less
concern to a commercial cider grower who processes fruit (often into
concentrate) as quickly as he can. Adequate nitrogen encourages fruit
bud formation and lessens biennial bearing which is always a potential
issue with cider varieties here in the UK. Cider apples here are not
pruned in the same way that dessert apples are, and in dessert terms
they are allowed to 'overcrop' in quite a major way.

I would stress that is for commercial orchards. As a hobbyist looking
for low N fruit, I think I have only applied nitrogen twice in 25 years,
just to stop the (now fully biennial) trees collapsing! I may need to
give them another dose next year though, or I might get charged with
cruelty and neglect!

> We have been performing Yeast Assimable Nitrogen tests on many cider blends
>> for several years. All from what would be commercial orchard operations.
>> Including my own orchards. There tends to be scant or negligible nitrogen
>> in any of the juice.
>>

I'm interested to know what you regard as 'scant or negligible' YAN.
When I was at Long Ashton it was a rule of thumb that a good slow
fermenting cider juice should contain well below 100 ppm N. A modern
commercial cidermaker would probably want around 200 ppm N for a fast
efficient fermentation, which can easily be added as ammonium phosphate
of course. We found at Long Ashton that juvenile bush cider trees tended
to have quite high levels exceeding 300 ppm, but this was not sustained
as the trees matured. Different cultivars are known to take up different
amounts of N from the soil. There is data from the 1940's to suggest
that all the UK 'vintage' cider varieties are poor N assimilators and
hence by themselves they will tend to give slow fermentations. That is
probably one reason why they are 'vintage' varieties.

Hope the figures help.

Andrew.

[Andrew Lea]

On 19/05/2013 19:53, Andrew Lea wrote:
>
> When I was at Long Ashton it was a rule of thumb that a good slow
> fermenting cider juice should contain well below 100 ppm N. A modern
> commercial cidermaker would probably want around 200 ppm N for a fast
> efficient fermentation, which can easily be added as ammonium phosphate
> of course. We found at Long Ashton that juvenile bush cider trees tended
> to have quite high levels exceeding 300 ppm,

I have just found some figures in my files indicating a recommended N
level for UK Cox fruit going into cold store at around 500 - 700 ppm,
and 700 ppm for Bramley. That is much higher than one would want for a
slow fermenting cider.

Andrew

[Mike Beck]

We have only been testing juice not any fruit? When I am near my records I
will look for exact figures. (less than 20ppm comes to mind) Could N be
released in the pressing process?
Curious in the middle of the Mitten,

Mike Beck
Uncle John's

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[Cornelius Traas]

Andrew said:
"Can't give you the figures for UK dessert orchards - maybe someone else can
chip in with that"

About 30kg per ha is the standard for dessert fruit, which will still give
apples of about 600ppm N. 30kg per ha is about the amount needed to replace
what is taken off in a good yielding crop. The reason for the higher rates
on cider trees is to reduce the likelyhood of biennial bearing, which is
fairly great in commercial orchards, due to the heavy yields.
Con Traas

[Cornelius Traas]

Mike said:" We have only been testing juice not any fruit? ... Could N be

released in the pressing process?"

My tests show N is the same in juice as in fruit. There is no appreciable
loss in the pressing process.
Con Traas

[Andrew Lea]

Thanks Con. Just the data I was looking for! It's good to put figures on these things!

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[Andrew Lea]

Mike,

I agree with Con that the N level in fruit and juice will be little different. Will be interested in your actual figures and how they stack up with our UK and Irish data!!

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[Mike Beck]

As I look closer, our lowest reading ever was 22ppm and we have never
crested over 50ppm.

Mike Beck
Uncle John's

St. John's, Michigan

[Andrew Lea]

That is fascinating Mike, and those figures are very low, but seem to be consistent with no addition of nitrogen to the trees in 15 years. At those levels you should have no problems making a Claude-style naturally sweet cider! Do you add nutrients to the juice currently to get the fermentation to go at a reasonable speed?

I don't recall your trees in too much detail but how old are they? What sort of fruit yields do you get from them? Do you see any extension growth at all? Is your lack of nitrogen addition typical of other growers in your area? You implied that it was but I don't think it would be regarded as normal commercial practice here. Interesting .....!!

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Claude wrote:
> These apples were grown in a commercial orchard,
> hence full of nitrogen, and they aren't either late varieties which
> naturally ferment slower.

Lots of talking since I wrote the above this morning! I was in the
orchard all day, making grafts and cleaning up, hence didn't follow
the thread... Earliest pears are starting to bloom now here - most
apples should be in full bloom in about 10 to 15 days. I am quite sure
I am the member of this forum whose apple trees bloom the latest.

So, back to our topic... First, Mike, I didn't mean that all
commercial apples are necessarily overloaded with nitrogen, as this
depends a lot on how the apples are grown. For sure, intensive
orcharding practices, with 1000 dwarf trees per acre, do produce
apples that contain a lot more nitrogen than old-fashioned prairie
orchards at 60 standard trees per acre. The main point however is that
modern cultural practices to obtain good yields per acre (and a
sustainable income) do tend to increase the nitrogen content in
apples. Hence my comment that these nice looking and big apples bought
at the market were obviously containing more nitrogen than the apples
I grow in my old fashioned low-yield orchard.

But the main point I wanted to make is that even with commercially
grown eating apples with their higher nitrogen content, it seems
possible to control the fermentation speed with a sufficient number of
rackings and to obtain a cider that retains some residual sweetness
naturally.

By the way, I am quite puzzled by the numbers of YAN that you quote,
between 22 and 50 ppm. What sort of trees do you have? Dwarfs or
standards? With such low nitrogen levels, you should have no
difficulty to control the fermentation and obtain naturally sweet
ciders...

Claude

[c...@theapplefarm.com]

Mike said: "As I look closer, our lowest reading ever was 22ppm and we

have never crested over 50ppm."

Hello Mike,
I wonder if you could let us know what type of N test you are using? I am
just wondering if there could be difference due to testing methods. I have
used Kjeldahl, which is very well known
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kjeldahl_method).
Con

[Andrew Lea]

On 20/05/2013 08:51, c...@theapplefarm.com wrote:
>
> I wonder if you could let us know what type of N test you are using? I am
> just wondering if there could be difference due to testing methods. I have
> used Kjeldahl, which is very well known

If I could jump in here with my 'analyst' hat on. Non-nerds can look
away now ;-)

I think Mike is using YAN (yeast available nitrogen) which is a measure
of free alpha-amino groups widely used in the wine industry. Kjeldahl
measures total nitrogen. In apples, about 80% of the total soluble
nitrogen is actually free YAN so the discrepancy if any between the two
methods when measuring juices will not be too large.

I would though like to qualify my remarks yesterday about N levels in
whole apple fruit vs juice. The 600 ppm I quoted yesterday as optimum
for apples going into store, relates I believe to the analysis of whole
fruit by Kjeldahl. In whole apples about 50% of N is locked up as
insoluble protein, so that figure of 600 ppm equates to around 300 ppm
as soluble N or YAN. It also stacks up nicely with the 300 ppm I quoted
which we obtained on fruit from young bush trees at LARS, since that
measurement was made on soluble juice (by Kjeldahl as it happens).

[Mike Beck]

I would have to ask the Lab but if I recall I think Andrew is right as to
method.
I did not say any N applications in 15 yrs. We do not use conventional
ground applied fertilizers. We do use foliar applied applications, here is
a PDF of we put on @ Pink & Petal Fall.
http://www.agrian.com/pdfs/Nutri-Phite_Magnum_2-40-16_Label1.pdf it is a
2-40-16 formulation. I am not hyping this product BTW, it is basically what
the salesman that actually scouts the orchard, has as the brand they sell.
We may use it later in the growing season as well, if we felt there was a
need or leaf analysis tell us to. I use it on the vegetables we grow too!
Fruit like Honey Crisp, Mutsu, Red Delicious, will certainly get more N and
other micros plus, calcium. However, none of those varieties would land in
cider. Honey Crisp in particular gets lots of foliar Calcium applications.
(Lots)

As far as fruit in my orchard. 5%-95+yr. 30%-45yr. 40%-25yr. 20%-15yr. 5%
1-10yr. (Mostly semi-dwarf some old standard)
The fruit I buy for processing cider and juice are mostly coming from blocks
destined for the process market, most from older (15yr+) blocks. In a
typical year 65+% of the Michigan crop goes to the process market. We do
have some premium sites for growing table fruit, those are maximized for
sure. The Western states can grow far prettier fruit than us. We tend to
grow the fruit that goes into the foods that people eat and drink. Many of
our cider blends have a bit of our big 3 from the process industry:
Northern Spy, Jonathon, Ida Red. Annual heavy croppers, lots of acid, which
I like. Other Heirlooms like, Baldwin, RI Greening, Winter Banana, Winesap,
Grimes Goldens, Cortland & Mac's are mostly on a mix of old standards and
semi-dwarfs.

As to the style of cider I might make. I am not talented enough to pull off
a keeve. I also would be concerned about stability after it leaves our
cidery. Had a 600 gallon go keeve once, not by design anyway. I am kind of
a one trick pony, we pretty much stick to DV10 sometimes Epernay II, both of
which are pretty aggressive yeasts. The later requires much attention in
regards to nutrient needs or you get a cider ala egg salad sandwich. I have
tried yeast that are highly susceptible to So2, What is the protection when
the So2 fades? We are not trying to make a cider to any style either
(English, Spanish, French) I ferment a cider as clean as we can, they tend
to be fruit forward, dryer than many, with a crisp acidic bite, if it has
not gone through a ML fermentation. Not sure if we have an American style
again. I taste a lot of American ciders (craft/artisanal) that fall along
that profile.

I am sure that there is commercial orchards that still practice heavy N
applications here. Not as many as there used to be for sure. I think most
try to keep tree vigor in control. Many use PGR's to limit vigor in tree's.
(BASF Apogee comes to mind) None of my data has info about fruit that is
really destined for the grocery store produce aisle.

Hope that puts it more into perspective. To sum up, we may have fruit to
make a good style of cider, but I am probably not talented enough to pull it
off.

Mike Beck

St. John's, Michigan


-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 4:19 AM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Nitrogen - formerly International Cider
Competition

[Andrew Lea]

On 20/05/2013 15:40, Mike Beck wrote:
> I would have to ask the Lab but if I recall I think Andrew is right as to
> method.
> I did not say any N applications in 15 yrs. We do not use conventional
> ground applied fertilizers. We do use foliar applied applications, here is
> a PDF of we put on @ Pink & Petal Fall.
> http://www.agrian.com/pdfs/Nutri-Phite_Magnum_2-40-16_Label1.pdf it is a
> 2-40-16 formulation.

Thanks for all that background Mike. As regards the foliar spray, if I
calculate correctly, it seems to equate to around 100 g/ha of N compared
to the 100 kg/ha for conventional ground application here! I appreciate
a foliar spray is a lot more targeted, but even if you apply it several
times a season it seems to me that you are still giving the trees far
less N than would be recommended for commercial cider growers here.
Interesting on many levels! As indeed are so many things one learns on
an international forum such as this :-)

[Mike Beck]

A fair amount of what my orchard has is clay loams with a fair bit organic
matter. Some of it though is on light soils with average organic matter. We
grow only 20% of our own orchard as table fruit the rest is destined for the
crusher. I have not used it fruit trees but many growers augment soil with
compost as well. I work really hard at keeping tree vigor low so I keep
nutrition to a minimum.

Between the fruit I grow and the fruit I purchase for cider there is far
too little N sustain a healthy fermentation. If that is ideal for a method:
Keeve or some form of arrested fermentation, perhaps I should try.
Mike Beck
St. John's, MI

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 6:05 PM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Nitrogen - formerly International Cider
Competition

[Nat West]

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 4:56 PM, Mike Beck <mjb...@ujcidermill.com> wrote:

 Between the fruit I grow and the fruit I purchase for cider there is far
too little N sustain a healthy fermentation. 

So are you saying that you add nutrients to fermenting juice/cider? 

[Andrew Lea]

On 21/05/2013 00:56, Mike Beck wrote:
>
> I work really hard at keeping tree vigor low so I keep
> nutrition to a minimum.
>
> Between the fruit I grow and the fruit I purchase for cider there is far
> too little N sustain a healthy fermentation. If that is ideal for a method:
> Keeve or some form of arrested fermentation, perhaps I should try.
>

I think you could play round on an experimental basis at least. Depends
on how curious you feel, but since you have naturally low N fruit
(unlike many other commercial growers) it might be worth a go.

The simplest is just to allow a wild yeast fermentation on your juice
(no added nutrients) and see what it does for you. More complex is to do
repeated rackings, as Claude suggests, to see if you can stabilise a
naturally sweet cider. Most complex of all is keeving. Either way, you
will have to anticipate slow fermentations which may take 6 months to
complete - not the fast and furious pace you are probably used to!!

Whether you will thereby develop a product which fits into your business
model is another story!! "Uncle John's Slow Cider" sounds good to me as
a niche brand!

[Mike Beck]

Nat, I would only add Nutrient to a ferment if the yeast ask for it.  I will use some usually for a 5 gal yeast starter for pitching. 

Mike Beck

St. John’s, MI

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nat West
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 9:38 PM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Nitrogen - formerly International Cider Competition

 

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 4:56 PM, Mike Beck <mjb...@ujcidermill.com> wrote:

--

[greg l.]

I would just like to add to the nitrogen discussion that fertiliser
rates are highly dependent on the situation in the orchard. In my area
nitrogen deficiency is a chronic problem and anyone here who thought a
low nitrogen regime was a good idea would be in for serious
disappointment. Young apple trees need to grow, and people new to
orcharding are generally inclined to err on the side of too little
rather than too much nitrogen, at least in my experience.

Greg

[richard marlborough]

in the light of these posts,

 i have this year put grass mulch around the base of my one year old cordon trees. is this a good idea? i read that grass mulch takes nitrogen out of the soil?

they are all Gloucester & somerset vintage cider varieties

thanks

rich

[Mike Beck]

Greg,
True in some older(40yr+) semi dwarf orchards tree vigor on our clay soil is
so intense that we have purposely girdled 3/4 of the trunk to slow the tree
down. In another corners of the orchard I cannot do that. I will probably
break down and add chicken compost to the 400 new trees we planted last year
on our more sandy loam. Or use a fertigation program for them.
Mike beck
Uncle John's

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of greg l.
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:49 PM
To: Cider Workshop

Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Nitrogen - formerly International Cider
Competition

[Claude Jolicoeur]

This is very interesting Nat.

You wrote:
> Pre-ferment, I always send in a juice sample to an
> analytical lab to get advanced chemistry on it, including YAN (yeast
> assimilable nitrogen), ammonia, and alpha-amino compounds (as N).  Not
> surprisingly, I have never gotten detectable levels of ammonia in my juice
> (<10 mg/L).  My YAN levels are typically from 80-120 mg/L as N, every once
> in a while I’ll get as “high” as 135.  Most of this is alpha-amino
> compounds – these numbers parallel the YAN readings, always a bit lower.
> Just for the sake of completeness, I see Brix levels between 12-13 (SG
> ~1.05), pHs of 3.7 – 4.0, TAs of 2.5 – 3.4 g/L, with malic acid levels of
> 3.8 – 5.0 g/L.

I am a bit puzzled here. The YAN is normally given by the formol
titration test. Then there is another test, the Kjeldahl test, that
gives the total N, which would include the YAN plus some non-usable N
(i.e. mostly in protein form) - this test gives values slightly higher
than the YAN test, somewhere around 20 to 30 mg/L more.
Which is then the test that gives the alpha-amino compounds (and a
result smaller than the YAN number), and what is its use?

>
> We also chaptalize (add sugar) to our juice
> before starting the ferment, so our starting brix levels are more like 13.8
> (~1.056 SG).

Why? SG 1.050 is very acceptable for a starting gravity. I would
understand if your juice SG was 1.045 or lower.


>
>  I wonder how the nitrogen needs of this ferment (we use cider-appropriate
> wine yeasts) compares with the slower, native yeast ferments often used in
> the UK.  I think it’s possible that our more aggressive yeast strains have
> higher nutrient demands, but I’m still trying to figure out exactly what
> level that might be.  I’d be interested in hearing how others approach this.

I think nothing can replace our own experiences. You obviously are in
a commercial operation. However, you could still make small test
batches of 5 to 10 gallons: for example you could make one without any
nutrient addition, but with yeast inoculation, and another one without
nutrients nor yeast inoculation, and compare the fermentation speeds
and end results. My impression is that, with the YAN numbers you
quoted above, you don't need addition of nutrients if you ferment in
the cool and may accept that fermentation will require more time to
complete. But this would need to be confirmed by tests.

Claude

[Corey Fleetwood]

Nat: What lab are you using? And what testing equipment criteria did you use to help make the lab choice decision?

Claude: I just ordered a copy of your book - The New Cider Maker's Handbook - from Amazon and it's estimated delivery date is in early October. Can I order a copy (e-book or hard cover) from you directly and get an earlier delivery time?

Corey Fleetwood 

Portland OR

> Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 09:22:20 -0700
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Nitrogen - formerly International Cider Competition
> From: cjol...@gmail.com
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Corey Fleetwood <coreyfleetw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Claude: I just ordered a copy of your book - The New Cider Maker's Handbook - from Amazon and it's estimated delivery date is in early October. Can I order a copy (e-book or hard cover) from you directly and get an earlier delivery time?

From my understanding, the books that will be shipped first (i.e.
beginning of September according to the current schedule) are those in
pre-order from the publisher, i.e. if you order from this web page:
http://www.chelseagreen.com/bookstore/item/the_new_cider_makers_handbook/

As Andrew mentioned earlier, this might however be a bit more
expensive than ordering from Amazon.

I will also get a number of copies that I will be able to sell, but
this is likely to be of interest for canadians only, considering
shipping and other fees to send across the border.
Now, if you come and meet me at next CiderDays in November, there will
be loads of copies for sale and you'll also get it signed!!!

Claude

[Nate Wall]

Just for the record - I'm Nate - I make wine and cider for McMenamins Edgefield Winery.  There's also Nat, also from Portland, who makes Reverend Nat's cider.  Confusingly similar.

To address your questions:

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is very interesting Nat.

You wrote:
> Pre-ferment, I always send in a juice sample to an
> analytical lab to get advanced chemistry on it, including YAN (yeast
> assimilable nitrogen), ammonia, and alpha-amino compounds (as N).  Not
> surprisingly, I have never gotten detectable levels of ammonia in my juice
> (<10 mg/L).  My YAN levels are typically from 80-120 mg/L as N, every once
> in a while I’ll get as “high” as 135.  Most of this is alpha-amino
> compounds – these numbers parallel the YAN readings, always a bit lower.
> Just for the sake of completeness, I see Brix levels between 12-13 (SG
> ~1.05), pHs of 3.7 – 4.0, TAs of 2.5 – 3.4 g/L, with malic acid levels of
> 3.8 – 5.0 g/L.

I am a bit puzzled here. The YAN is normally given by the formol
titration test. Then there is another test, the Kjeldahl test, that
gives the total N, which would include the YAN plus some non-usable N
(i.e. mostly in protein form) - this test gives values slightly higher
than the YAN test, somewhere around 20 to 30 mg/L more.
Which is then the test that gives the alpha-amino compounds (and a
result smaller than the YAN number), and what is its use?

Our YAN numbers are a calculation based off of total nitrogen including alpha-amino nitrogen (NOPA - sometimes referred to as FAN (free amino nitrogen)) and ammonia (NH3).  So not Kjeldahl - just the usable subset of Kjeldahl nitrogen.  Rather than total N, YAN is what I look at to determine how happy the yeasts will be during the ferment, and if they might require nutrients to avoid getting stressed (and the oft associated production of H2S), or stick (since I'm almost always looking to ferment totally dry).

> We also chaptalize (add sugar) to our juice
> before starting the ferment, so our starting brix levels are more like 13.8
> (~1.056 SG).

Why? SG 1.050 is very acceptable for a starting gravity. I would
understand if your juice SG was 1.045 or lower.

We add sugar initially because of the style of cider we make (if it is indeed a style - "American"?) - we ferment to dryness at a higher alcohol level, then instead of adding sugar to sweeten it we blend back fresh pressed apple juice (which then dilutes down the alcohol).  Might seem a bit strange, but in some ways it's less manipulative than adding sugar back to sweeten it at the end.  Of course, we could try to have the ferment stick at the desired sugar level, but we might have a harder time with consistency across batches that way.
 

>  I wonder how the nitrogen needs of this ferment (we use cider-appropriate
> wine yeasts) compares with the slower, native yeast ferments often used in
> the UK.  I think it’s possible that our more aggressive yeast strains have
> higher nutrient demands, but I’m still trying to figure out exactly what
> level that might be.  I’d be interested in hearing how others approach this.

I think nothing can replace our own experiences. You obviously are in
a commercial operation. However, you could still make small test
batches of 5 to 10 gallons: for example you could make one without any
nutrient addition, but with yeast inoculation, and another one without
nutrients nor yeast inoculation, and compare the fermentation speeds
and end results. My impression is that, with the YAN numbers you
quoted above, you don't need addition of nutrients if you ferment in
the cool and may accept that fermentation will require more time to
complete. But this would need to be confirmed by tests.

I ferment relatively cool - 55 degrees (we ferment in glycol-jacketed stainless steel tanks).  But because of the selected yeast strains I use, I'll go from 1.056 SG down to 0.998 SG in 12 days or so.  Quite a bit speedier than other approaches.  And I experiment all the time - I just often do it on a larger tank since we ferment in multiple tanks simultaneously and I find quite a lot of variability across 5 gallon carboys ferments, even when all the conditions are identical (just too small of a volume I think, and I wouldn't really know how to extrapolate results confidently to a larger volume).  I have done tests with and without racking off juice lees, with and without a DAP addition (and discovered I didn't need it so no longer add it), and between various yeast strains.  I am also trying to narrow down appropriate inoculation rates for cider ferments as opposed to wine (yeast "pitch rates"), but have not yet experimented with an inoculated ferment.  Perhaps next batch...

Cheers,
Nate

[Nate Wall]

Corey - I'm using ETS Labs, which is pretty much THE analytical lab that all Oregon wineries use for vine, grape, juice and wine analysis.  The closest location to Portland is in McMinnville, but I just UPS my samples down there.  That said - McMinnville is trying to get their equipment calibrated for cider analyses (not just wine), and they should have that up and running soon.  In the mean time, I have been sending my samples to the main ETS lab in St. Helena, CA.  Let me know if you have any questions about them.

Nate

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Corey Fleetwood <coreyfl...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Nat: What lab are you using? And what testing equipment criteria did you use to help make the lab choice decision?

Corey Fleetwood 

Portland OR

[Nat West]

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Nate Wall <aeo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just for the record - I'm Nate - I make wine and cider for McMenamins Edgefield Winery.  There's also Nat, also from Portland, who makes Reverend Nat's cider.  Confusingly similar.

And, importantly, Nate knows what the hell he's doing. I'm just a hack. I don't check YAN, I don't cool ferment. In fact, I intentionally warm ferment much of my cider (beer yeast). And my pH, TA and SG numbers are quite different from Nate's. 

-Nat West, Reverend Nat's Hard Cider, Portland Ore.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Nate Wall wrote:
> Just for the record - I'm Nate - I make wine and cider for McMenamins
> Edgefield Winery.  There's also Nat, also from Portland, who makes Reverend
> Nat's cider.  Confusingly similar.

Nate, sorry for this - I noticed it just after I hit the send key. I
thought I had typed it well, but I guess I didn't hit that "e" key
properly!

Your fermentations are amazingly fast, considering the reasonable YAN
numbers you have. It would be very interesting to compare with the
speeds you'd get from a wild yeast ferment.

Also, we need to consider that the yeast we inoculate contains some N
that will eventually be released back to the cider. Hence any yeast
inoculation does impact the nutrient content. I don't have numbers for
this however. What would be the N part from 100 grams of dry yeast?
When I do some small additions, I generally consider 1 gram of dry
yeast as equivalent to 1 gram of DAP nutrientwise. I don't know if
this is realist or not, but it seems to work. I'd be curious to know
if there are measurements that have been taken to substanciate this.

Claude

[Andrew Lea]

On 22/05/2013 22:24, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
>
>
> Also, we need to consider that the yeast we inoculate contains some N
> that will eventually be released back to the cider. Hence any yeast
> inoculation does impact the nutrient content. I don't have numbers for
> this however. What would be the N part from 100 grams of dry yeast?
> When I do some small additions, I generally consider 1 gram of dry
> yeast as equivalent to 1 gram of DAP nutrientwise.

I don't think that is right Claude. DAP contains 18% nitrogen, all
assimilable. As best as I can tell from old textbook references, dried
yeast contains about 9% nitrogen, roughly half of which is in protein
and only half is directly assimilable as free amino nitrogen. So only
about 4.5% nitrogen is available. Maybe some of that protein nitrogen
can later become available in extremis or after autolysis, but a good
deal of it must surely be 'structural'. Perhaps someone has some better
figures than I found?

[Nate Wall]

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:

Your fermentations are amazingly fast, considering the reasonable YAN
numbers you have. It would be very interesting to compare with the
speeds you'd get from a wild yeast ferment.

I might overcome my fear and try a small native ferment this next batch.
 

Also, we need to consider that the yeast we inoculate contains some N
that will eventually be released back to the cider. Hence any yeast
inoculation does impact the nutrient content. I don't have numbers for
this however. What would be the N part from 100 grams of dry yeast?
When I do some small additions, I generally consider 1 gram of dry
yeast as equivalent to 1 gram of DAP nutrientwise. I don't know if
this is realist or not, but it seems to work. I'd be curious to know
if there are measurements that have been taken to substanciate this.

That's a good point that I hadn't considered.  Also, I neglected to mention that I rehydrate my yeast with Go-Ferm, a yeast rehydration nutrient that helps the yeasts to be healthy and happy by the time they hit the juice (I mix up the Go-Ferm in 105 degree water, then rehydrate the yeast starting at 100 degrees, adding juice in increments to bring the temperature down to my desired ferm temp - dropping 10-15 degrees at a time, then wait 20 minutes, add more juice and drop another 15 degrees, etc).  Go-Ferm also provides about 7.5 mg N/L - much of which is supposedly used up during rehydration. So there's more nitrogen for ya.  This could be totally unnecessary for cider - again, I am importing a lot of what I do for white wine making into cider, and perhaps the Go-Ferm is more important with the higher alcohols and lower pHs of wine where the yeasts are more stressed.  I could maybe save time and energy by a simpler rehydration protocol. Interesting.

Nate

[Nate Wall]

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Nat West wrote:

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Nate Wall wrote:

Just for the record - I'm Nate - I make wine and cider for McMenamins Edgefield Winery.  There's also Nat, also from Portland, who makes Reverend Nat's cider.  Confusingly similar.

And, importantly, Nate knows what the hell he's doing. I'm just a hack. I don't check YAN, I don't cool ferment. In fact, I intentionally warm ferment much of my cider (beer yeast). And my pH, TA and SG numbers are quite different from Nate's. 

-Nat West, Reverend Nat's Hard Cider, Portland Ore.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Nat, but I really only know what the hell I am doing with *grapes*.  Comparing cider to wine is like comparing apples to oranges, so to speak.  Interesting how similar yet how different they truly are.
 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Andrew Lea wrote:
> I don't think that is right Claude. DAP contains 18% nitrogen, all
> assimilable.

Hummm, number I had for this is 21% N in DAP - not a huge difference,
but not negligible either... I guess I'll have to search to find where
I got this number from...

> As best as I can tell from old textbook references, dried
> yeast contains about 9% nitrogen, roughly half of which is in protein
> and only half is directly assimilable as free amino nitrogen. So only
> about 4.5% nitrogen is available. Maybe some of that protein nitrogen
> can later become available in extremis or after autolysis, but a good
> deal of it must surely be 'structural'. Perhaps someone has some better
> figures than I found?

As I mentioned a few times in the past, the sort of tests I did was to
add a small amount of DAP to a stalled cider and see where it would go
from its stalled position. Same type of test by adding a small amount
of DAP plus a small amount of yeast. I didn't do enough of those tests
to be able to draw a definite conclusion, but preliminary
constatations led me to think 1 gram of dried yeast gave an
approximately equivalent reaction as 1 gram of DAP. Now, there might
be other factors than just N in play there...

Claude

[Nat West]

Here is something in this thread upon which I can comment: 

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 4:09 PM, Nate Wall <aeo...@gmail.com> wrote:

This could be totally unnecessary for cider - again, I am importing a lot of what I do for white wine making into cider, and perhaps the Go-Ferm is more important with the higher alcohols and lower pHs of wine where the yeasts are more stressed.  I could maybe save time and energy by a simpler rehydration protocol. Interesting.

I have recently switched to using Go-Ferm for all my dry yeasts. We primarily use liquid beer (ale) yeasts and I have always had better, faster, quicker to start fermentations with the liquid yeast (Wyeast) than with dry yeasts. Now we make a big starter of the dry yeast plus Go-Ferm and hot water like Nate describes, which makes our dry yeast fermentations as sure-fire as the liquid yeast ones.

Much of this cidermaking style comes from the commercial nature of my operation. To have one batch of cider not start efficiently and get bugs and potentially need to be destroyed could mean a huge loss of potential profit (3300 gallon batches), so I don't take no chances and sleep well with my fast aggressive fermentations (some finishing in days). We aren't one-trick ponies though. I just finished  one IBC of cider in my walk-in cooler, wild fermented, with no ill-effects. Haven't tasted it though :)

-Nat West, Portland Ore

[Andrew Lea]

On 23/05/2013 01:41, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
> Andrew Lea wrote:
>> I don't think that is right Claude. DAP contains 18% nitrogen, all
>> assimilable.
>
> Hummm, number I had for this is 21% N in DAP - not a huge difference,
> but not negligible either... I guess I'll have to search to find where
> I got this number from...

You're right Claude. I miscalculated late at night. 21% it is!

> .....led me to think 1 gram of dried yeast gave an

> approximately equivalent reaction as 1 gram of DAP. Now, there might
> be other factors than just N in play there...

The most obvious other thing in yeast itself which will stimulate the
fermentation is thiamine (vitamin B1) which is essential but is often
low in apple juices. Plus other vitamins such as pantothenate (B5).
That's one reason why people use these organic 'yeast derived' nutrient
additives in place of DAP. There's more to growth and metabolism than
just nitrogen!

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Andrew Lea wrote:
> > Hummm, number I had for this is 21% N in DAP - not a huge difference,
> > but not negligible either... I guess I'll have to search to find where
> > I got this number from...
>
> You're right Claude. I miscalculated late at night. 21% it is!

Ouffff! I was afraid I'd have to make some last minute changes to the
book!

Claude

[adam]

Hi,

I just opened the containers with the first cider I made. One is surprisingly good :-). Two others were drinkable but had a relatively strong, quite special taste, that I can describe as being like a wet, a bit rotten wood. It would have been pleasant, had it been a bit less intensive. These two ciders had no contact with wood whatsoever - they were fermented and then stored in plastic bins.

The two ciders were fermented with cultured yeast, and racked once. The third cider processed in the same way does not have this taste whatsoever.

Any idea what may have caused such a woodish taste?

/adam

[Andrew Lea]

Is the taste mousy, popcorn or breadlike? Does it intensify in the mouth over 10 or 20 seconds? Or does it come up immediately?

Is it perhaps smoky or leather like? Or like damp leaves?

Or is it primarily damp wood as you first described?

What sort of apples do you use? What was the yeast? What pH? How much SO2 at fermentation and how much at racking? How tight are your air seals in the cider storage vessels? Have you seen any surface mould growth? Are the plastic bins food grade - new or used? Have you used any disinfectants eg of the chlorophenol type? Any treated wooden pallets being used as stands? Has any cork been involved?

Further information would be helpful!

Andrew



Sent from my iPhone

[Andrew Lea]

You're right Claude. I miscalculated late at night. 21% it is!

Ouffff! I was afraid I'd have to make some last minute changes to the
book!

Sorry to scare you! I should have double checked!

Andrew

[adam]

Andrew,

1. The taste comes up immediately.
2. I wouldn't call it mousy. Primarily damp wood for me, although my wife says that it resembles her damp leaves too.
3. I used food grade, Young's plastic fermentation bins. They were new, I washed them with a sulphite solution (5% if I recall) before the use. Firstly I just covered the bins with cotton tissue, then after the visible fermentation was over I closed the bins and put the fermentation locks (with a few drops of a sulphite solution inside).
4.I indeed used new, wooden boards as the stands - although they were not treated
5. First bin:
- 50/50 dessert and cooking apples - I used local Polish apple varieties (Kosztela & Antonowka)
- initial gravity = 1040, pH = 3.4
- 2 x campden tables per 5 ltrs of the must
- added pectolase
- 2 days later added Young's cider yeast (1g / 5 liters) + yeast nutritient
- no fermentation was taking place so after 3 days I added Lalvin yeast too (now I think it was too hasty)
- fermentation then proceeded quickly (gravity = 1004 after 12 days). Foam was white in colour, and not very vigorous
- I then racked the must, added 37 grams of sugar to 5 liters of the must and closed the bin with the fermentation lock for the next 6 months
- fully fermented when opened
- temperature in the basement where I kept the cider ranged from 8 to 15 deg C.
6. Second affected bin:
- 40/40/20 - dessert apple/cooking apple/dessert pear
- initial gravity = 1052, pH = 3.35
- 1 x campden tablet per 5 liters
- no pectolase,
- 2 days later added Young's cider yeast, no nutritient
- 3 days later added Lalvin yeast
- 10 days later gravity at 1008, although fermentation was barely visible; racked
- 1 month later added 35g of sugar
- then left for 5 months to mature
- fully fermented when opened
7. no cork was involved
8. The 3rd cider, the one free from the 'woodish' taste, I kept in a glass container, with the fermentation lock on from the day one. I did not add any sugar to this one.

/adam

[Dries Muylaert]

Might be autolysis of the yeast. Imo maturing a cider on the lee (only one raking?) is not a good idea, unless you want to provoke a malolactic. It is however done for Champagne , but then under CO2 saturated conditions.

yours,

Dries

2013/5/25 adam <ahash...@me.com>

[Andrew Lea]

Thanks for all the detail Adam.

Your cidermaking process sounds fine to me, though I can't quite see why
you would add more sugar at the end of the fermentation. That will only
prolong it unnecessarily. Also I would suggest adding SO2 for long-term
storage after a second racking.

For your problem, I had various possibilities in mind:

1. Bacterial infection leading to 'mousiness'. Seems unlikely from the
way you describe the flavour.

2. Lactic acid bacterial activity leading to farmyard / leathery / smoky
/ wet leaves / old horse volatile phenols. That's a possible.

3. Mould growth in juice or on fruit leading to unspecified woody
aromas. I have met this but seems unlikely here.

4. External vapour-phase taint transfer. That's why I asked about wood
because treated wooden pallets can be a source of chloranisoles which
give a classical mouldy / damp taint. They can even make water taste
wet! They are very volatile and can move through the air and into and
out of plastics and into stored foodstuffs from pallets.

However, I do think it's telling that only the ciders in plastic have
this aroma, not the one in glass. Yet you are doing almost the same
process, just the container is different. It is unlikely that the
container itself is at fault, if it's a branded food grade fermentation
bin. So I deduce that it may actually be the wooden stands. The native
aroma of the wood could pass into the cider through the plastic but not
through the glass. This might happen more in a poorly ventilated space
like a cellar. If the wood was new it could still smell quite 'woody'.
Is the aroma of the wood similar to what you get in the cider?

I know a lot of people will regard such a mechanism with disbelief.
However, in the days when I was a professional trouble shooter / flavour
chemist in the food industry, we met this kind of vapour-phase taint
transfer all the time. People rarely believed it until they could see
the chemical evidence. In this case we cannot do the chemical analysis,
but I think it's a strong possibility. (Otherwise I'd go with mechanism
number 2, the normal production of 'old horse' phenols, due to lack of
SO2 on storage.)

Andrew