Making an off dry cider
Gary
board here, but I am just trying to get a though understanding of
things.
There is a apple juice pressing facility near us who press apples
through the fall and winter. I was hoping to get some juice with no
preservatives added and make an off dry cider. The juice is a blend of
several juice varieties. Is this acceptable?
In reading the various articles on Andrew's and other web sites,
Keeving sounds interesting. How ever finding a souce of the french kit
"Klercidre" looks dubious for us here in Canada. I understand that I
can just use CaCl as well as an enzyme.----The CaCl is no problem,--
but does any one have a line on what enzyme,---where or who carries it
in Canada.....etc..? Is there another way in stead of Keeving that
would provide similiar results?----I take it that, you want to have a
very slow fermentation of 2-4 months---at 5-10C temps, is this
correct? ----Should I be using a standard yeast like EC1118?
I take it that if it goes through malolactic, I would most likely run
into problems using sorbate later on for stablizing the offdry (semi
sweet cider) is this correct?
Any and all help would be appreciated.
Thanks so much
Gary in Ontario
Claude Jolicoeur
> There is a apple juice pressing facility near us who press apples
> through the fall and winter. I was hoping to get some juice with no
> preservatives added and make an off dry cider. The juice is a blend of
> several juice varieties. Is this acceptable?
Try to measure (or ask them) the sugar concentration and the titrable
acidity - those 2 numbers should give you a fair idea of the quality
of the cider you could obtain. Also, it is useful to taste the fresh
juice - a rich taste will give a better cider. Some biterness and/or
astringency in the juice taste is also an asset. Maybe you could ask
the names of the varieties and report here.
>
> In reading the various articles on Andrew's and other web sites,
> Keeving sounds interesting. How ever finding a souce of the french kit
> "Klercidre" looks dubious for us here in Canada. I understand that I
> can just use CaCl as well as an enzyme.----The CaCl is no problem,--
> but does any one have a line on what enzyme,---where or who carries it
> in Canada.....etc..?
We had a thread on this topic - I think it was in September 2009. Try
to look back in this forum (or do a search on Klercidre). For my part,
I have a friend that will be going to France in April and will bring a
Klercidre kit back for me.
> Is there another way in stead of Keeving that
> would provide similiar results?----I take it that, you want to have a
> very slow fermentation of 2-4 months---at 5-10C temps, is this
> correct?
Very slow fermentation is rather 9 to 12 months... 2 to 4 months is
medium fast!
> ----Should I be using a standard yeast like EC1118?
That's OK - it is the yeast I use most of the time.
>
> I take it that if it goes through malolactic, I would most likely run
> into problems using sorbate later on for stablizing the offdry (semi
> sweet cider) is this correct?
I just let MLF do its thing and I don't bother. If you have long
fermentation, MLF will most likely happen by itself during the summer
when the fermentation room gets warmer. I don't think you have to
worry too much about it.
However, if you work with commercially grown apples, most likely you
will have difficulty keeping a slow fermentation and stopping the
fermentation before it is dry - this is because commercially grown
apples usually contain a lot of Nitrogen (coming from fertilisation)
which acts as a yeast nutrient.
Claude
Andrew Lea
>
>
> However, if you work with commercially grown apples, most likely you
> will have difficulty keeping a slow fermentation and stopping the
> fermentation before it is dry - this is because commercially grown
> apples usually contain a lot of Nitrogen (coming from fertilisation)
> which acts as a yeast nutrient.
Claude has put his finger on the key point. That is why there are always
endless questions about how to make off-dry ciders. And that is why
nearly all commercial examples are sugar-sweetened and pasteurised (or
sterile-filtered). A century ago or more, when apples were grown
differently to the way they are now, it was much easier to make a
slightly sweet cider the 'natural' way by repeated racking to slow the
fermentation down.
People sometimes ask why they can rack beer after fermentation and keep
it sweet and stable at a positive SG but not cider. The reason is that
all the sugars in apple juice are fully fermentable by yeast but a
significant proportion of wort sugars from malt are not. So what works
for beer does not work for cider (or indeed for any wine).
Re Gary's sorbate question, no preservative can be guaranteed to work
reliably in cider. I have seen sorbate-treated ciders re-ferment and
explode. I would suggest not putting your faith in any preservative on
its own.
If there were an easy solution to the 'off dry' question we would all be
delighted. Unfortunately there isn't. There are many possible
solutions, all of them with various drawbacks. Each of us has to make
his / her own choice of which to use.
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
Claude Jolicoeur
> If there were an easy solution to the 'off dry' question we would all be
> delighted. Unfortunately there isn't. There are many possible
> solutions, all of them with various drawbacks. Each of us has to make
> his / her own choice of which to use.
I may add that if you are just starting with cider, it might be
preferable that you start by mastering the basic way to make cider
(which will be dry). Once you have a good feeling for these basics, it
is easier to start experimenting in search of the ultimate semi-dry or
semi-sweet cider!
Claude
Dick Dunn
> Andrew Lea wrote:
> > If there were an easy solution to the 'off dry' question we would all be
...
> I may add that if you are just starting with cider, it might be
> preferable that you start by mastering the basic way to make cider
> (which will be dry). Once you have a good feeling for these basics, it
> is easier to start experimenting in search of the ultimate semi-dry or
> semi-sweet cider!
More about Claude's point: A completely-dry cider is more challenging,
not in the sense of making it happen, but rather in making it well.
There's no sugar to "hide behind", so any faults stand out in the open.
This makes it more daunting at first, but it will hone your cidermaking
skills faster, and help you train yourself. Moreover, if you find after
a bit that you -prefer- dry ciders, you simply won't have to confront
the question of which Andrew speaks.
That's where I've ended up. I'm aiming for a full-bodied, assertive
cider, but I have no ambition to make it other than dry. It suits my
tastes, and Diane's. The small amount we've sold indicates that there
are enough other folks of like mind that I can continue on this path
and sell what I make. (I've no ambitions to become a big producer.)
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
Nat West
... A century ago or more, when apples were grown differently to the way they are now, it was much easier to make a slightly sweet cider the 'natural' way by repeated racking to slow the fermentation down.
Andrew Lea
On Feb 5, 6:36 pm, Nat West <natjw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is there a way (other than trial) to tell how nitrogenous your juice is? I
> collect apples from two old neglected orchards (one very neglected) and it
> makes very good cider and juice. They're still fermenting now, 4 months on,
> but I've not tried to keep any sweet. Some kind of test I can do to
> determine the feasibility of this low-nitrogen/multiple-racking approach?
It's not a test you can easily do at home, but you can certainly have
free amino nitrogen (FAN) or yeast available nitrogen (YAN) measured
by commercial wine analysts. Where you live this would probably be
easy enough to have done (though the levels would be much lower than
usual in grape musts). You would need to have this done on the juice
before it starts to ferment. A free amino nitrogen < 100 ppm at
baseline would probably be good for managing to get naturally sweet
cider.
By this stage, though, your best guide is how slowly is the SG
dropping? If it's only a degree or two a week, you have some chance of
racking to maintain residual sweetness.
Andrew
michael
dry cider ,it is not necessary to even think about off dry cider.All
of my family and friends really like my ciders,and my main aim now is
to produce better blends-this is difficult given the biennial nature
of most cider apple varieties.When friends attempt to buy cider like
mine they find that it is extremely difficult to find commercial cider
makers that make cider that is actually fully dry.I am sure that it
may be a safety mechanism by the large cidermakers to cover any slight
off flavours in any given batch.
My first attempts at dry cider making were difficult,since I started
with the idea to become fully 'organic' and not add any 'chemicals'
whatsoever.I still ferment using natural yeasts,but now use minimal
sulphite as recommended by Andrew.
Many of us used to regularly drink tea and coffee with sugar,but we
would not dream of adding sugar now as it completely masks the taste
of the basic drink-this could be an age thing of course,as we become
convinced of the disadvantages of consuming too much sugar in our
diet.
Michael
Stephen Hayes
DRY cider and a SHARP cider. My early efferts involved underripe dessert and
Bramley apples and the cider was indeed bone dry but also lacking in
tannins/'proper cider' flavour compounds and very acid. A lot of this cider
ended up being made into cider shandy, needing some lemonade to make it
palatable.
However, with a good balanced mix of bittersweets and well ripened apples
without too much sugar, you can have a cider with 'all the sugar turned to
alcohol' and therefore dry, but without too much acid (of course you need
some) which is fine.
Having said that, naturally sweet cider is lovely
Stephen
Andrew Lea
> Something it took me a few years to work out was the difference
> between a DRY cider and a SHARP cider.
Quite so. This is a complex multidimensional issue, much more so than
just "what is the SG?". Some of the variables associated with dryness
perception are sugar, acid, tannin, polyols and unfermentable sugars
(e.g. sorbitol and glycerol), dissolved CO2, presence / absence of
off-flavours (e.g. volatile acid, ethyl acetate, acetaldehyde) and
presence / absence of fruity or caramel flavours. The balance of all
these has to be right for a palatable dry cider or wine.
Michael wrote:
> When friends attempt to buy cider like mine they find that it is
> extremely difficult to find commercial cider makers that make cider
> that is actually fully dry.I am sure that it may be a safety
> mechanism by the large cidermakers to cover any slight off flavours
> in any given batch.
Only to a slight degree, and probably less so now than in past times.
It's much more about 'what sells'. Who remembers Bulmers No 7 - the
driest commercial cider of its time, but with no market and now just a
distant memory? Whether we like it or not, dry ciders are not big
business so they will only ever be for the devotee. I don't think that
would ever change no matter how much clever marketing you did. Rather
the reverse. Why have sales of nominally dry red wine increased so much
in recent years? Because they are surreptitiously bottled sweet so they
are easier to drink. People are well known by the drinks trade to 'talk
dry and buy sweet' (an effect of 'peer group pressure' because dry is
perceived as more difficult to enjoy and hence more sophisticated). The
human craving for sweetness to 'enhance' foods is almost overwhelming,
probably for long-lost evolutionary reasons. National and commercial
empires have been won and lost over such things (remember Nelson,
anyone, fighting for control of the Caribbean. And why? For sugar!).
There are other physiological issues too. We know nowadays that
individuals vary markedly in their response to bitterness. This is
genetically determined. One feature of increased dryness in cider and
wines is greater perceived bitterness. People who have the greater
bitter sensitivity will probably never like dry ciders. Declining
sensory response with increasing age is also a factor - so older people
will likely tolerate, even enjoy, drier drinks better. (In another life
I have been involved a good deal with chocolate - where the issues are
just the same). Those of us of a certain age might like to contemplate
whether our palates are the same now as when we were in our 20's - I
think not. What you drank then you would not drink now and vice-versa.
It's a complex business!