Saving lees for later use
olbol
(actually stuck at the right point of 1,007) juice? There was no added
yeast, so on the bottom must be a mix of various organisms, but how
many of those are of the variety we seek and in active state, not
dead? I was making mead a few weeks ago, it dropped very clear and I
used part of the sediment in mixture with sugar to carefully add to
bottled drink for in-bottle fermentation. Again, it was quite recent,
i.e, the lees weren't sitting there fror weeks and weeks. I wonder if
I can use the same technique with cider. If it is indeed possible, how
long could a mixture of lees and some cider in a plastic bottle
survive in a fridge?
Dries Muylaert
mild disinfectant. And it is not fresh. Autolysis will have set in,
can give off- flavours. Should be stored at 1 Celsius, and kept alive
by regularly adding sterilised most. Really, unless this is a yeast
culture you are very pleased with, it is really not worth the bother.
Melanie Wilson
(sourdough, small ale) and this is how it was often done in the past. And if
the yeasts come from the cider house walls etc reports are correct where
you get your next years yeasts with natural cider
Mel
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olbol
controlled amount of sugar/yeast mixture to each bottle - would I have
to use a fresh cultured yeast from a packet?
Dries Muylaert
fermentation to start up a new one. Don't. Use a new culture. They are
clean, available and cheap. Don't forget to ad some nutrients.
What do you mean by "each bottle?" You want a fermentation "methode
Champenoise", fermentation under pressure?
olbol
of cider on the bottling stage to make it fizzy, the common practice.
Trouble is, it's hard to strike a balance - sometimes I do it on a
cider which hasn't dropped clear enough, I get a lot of fizz, but also
a lot of lees in a bottle few months on. Sometimes I wait patiently
before bottling, but then the cider is too clear and there's no yeast
suspended in the liquid to do the work. Provided all my cider (a dozen
small tanks) drops clear I will need to add sugar and yeast this year
- where does this new additional yeast need to come from? The pressure
you mention - well that develops as a result, of course.
Dries Muylaert
If you can read the small print of a newspaper through a white glass
cider filled bottle, that's clear cider. You could use a counting
chamber, but that's for the big producers.
You will have to ad yeast. In a certain dosis. Another reason why not
to use lie from another fermentation.
You should use champaign yeast. It's cultivated for that purpose.
Dried. And ad 1 (max 2)gr/hectoliter. If you don't you also might have
a bottle fermentation, but it will take longer. Don't forget to ad
metabisulf to avoid a malolactic.
I must inform you that you should do some good reading on the subject
before you start. Questions on how much sugar is left in the cider,
how much to ad to obtain what pressure, what bottles to work in, how
to close them, at what temperature to ferment, at what temperature to
open and blow out the frozen lies if you choose to do so. People
handling champaign use to call it the devils brew. Not because of it's
pleasantly intoxicating effect but because sometimes the bottles
exploded.
olbol
read Andrew's book, I see it's not the ideal way, but I have yet to
see a burst bottle even from a heavy overdose of sugar/yeast. Now,
assuming the cider is dry and using dried yeast - would it be
practical to start a bottle of 'cider', i.e. fermenting liquid and add
the small quantities from it to each bottle (I bottle by batches of
30-50 so it's not that big of a hassle) and add a bit of sugar and
fermenting liquid or do you mean mixing dried yeast and sugar into a
vat or vats and bottle immediately?
Dries Muylaert
>
> Thank you for your advice, Dries. I use plastic bottles. Now that I
> read Andrew's book, I see it's not the ideal way, but I have yet to
> see a burst bottle even from a heavy overdose of sugar/yeast.
> assuming the cider is dry and using dried yeast - would it be
> practical to start a bottle of 'cider', i.e. fermenting liquid and add
> the small quantities from it to each bottle (I bottle by batches of
> 30-50 so it's not that big of a hassle) and add a bit of sugar and
> fermenting liquid or do you mean mixing dried yeast and sugar into a
> vat or vats and bottle immediately?
of sulfite (no malolactic). Make a suspension of the yeast in water at
temperature as required. Give it time to become a smooth porridge.
Best to look at the instructions of manuf.You can than ad the yeast to
the new vats in quantities required. Fe, 3 gr of powdered yeast in a
suspension with 900 cc, gives 0,1 gr pro 30 cc and 30 cc serves a vat
of 10 liters. Keep the yeast well mixed in the suspension and in the
vats. Than fill the bottles from the vats.
> >
>
Melanie Wilson
> read Andrew's book, I see it's not the ideal way, but I have yet to
> see a burst bottle even from a heavy overdose of sugar/yeast.
I assume you mean plastic pop type bottles which should take some pressure ?
A friend of mine uses these for all his wines, ciders etc without problems.
One factor is if they do burst they arn't as dangerous as flying glass.
I don't tend to use them as I don't drink pop at all. But once tried
elderflower champagne in some I was given, they deformed badly but I never
got a burst either. However, I know there is a product Oz tops designed for
fermenting in bottles they come in three types with different pressure
release calibration. Not very useful in a commercial situation, but maybe
some use in smaller volumes. Might be of interest to you.
olbol
etc, and I don't know what you have to do to deform a properly
designed plastic bottle. I've got some marble-hard, with carbonation
lasting for half-hour after opening, no problem. I think if they can
stand coca-cola, they can stand anything. Pressure is not my problem -
excessive dregs at the bottom from premature bottling is.
Dries Muylaert
take it out of a bottle, if in majority it's champaign yeast. Most
wild cider yeast sticks to the bottom as sulfur to pitch. Imo, you
can't take the lie out of a keg. But there are other solutions I
think, if you really do not want to drink a cloudy cider. You could fe
ferment in a vessel under pressure, bottling from there at very low
temperature. If you would fe put your vessel at minus xxx (calculate)
celcius open it and rake the cool cider of the lie into another
vessel, you would have a clear cider with a lot of fizz when drinking
it at let's say 12 Celsius. Or you can draw your cider out of a
pressurised keg, the tap being above the slush. Or you could bottle in
33cc beer bottles, meant for re fermenting beers. If you then poor the
cider you should be careful the lee doesn't come with it, so poor in
one movement, as we do for Geuze or Trappist. Plenty of possibilities.
As for pressure, yeast fermentation can go to six bar. If the cider
spoils with 'framboise' 7 is a possibility. Wouldn't know if cola
bottles stand up to such punishment.
Andrew Lea
> Well, I've been doing this for two seasons, plus occasional beermaking
> etc, and I don't know what you have to do to deform a properly
> designed plastic bottle. I've got some marble-hard, with carbonation
> lasting for half-hour after opening, no problem. I think if they can
> stand coca-cola, they can stand anything.
Not so. I have seen PET bottles explode. The result is not so likely to
be damaging to life and limb but can still make a mess. Their working
design pressure AFAIK is around 50 psi (3 bar) though they may take
around 100 psi (6 bar) before they burst. That means in practice you
should not have more than 10 g/l of priming sugar in the bottle. Double
it at your own risk!
> Pressure is not my problem - excessive dregs at the bottom from premature bottling is.
Dries has provided some possible alternatives. Your problem is probably
not helped by using PET bottles which are oxygen permeable and therefore
support more yeast growth than glass does. In addition, though there
will not be a direct relationship, I think a larger inoculum and hence
faster secondary fermentation will lead to more yeast biomass -
conversely a smaller inoculum will give a slower fermentation and a
lower biomass at completion (I believe this is true, though I am not
100% sure). But I can tell you anecdotally that when I have inoculated
with e.g. champagne yeast I have had much heavier yeast dregs (within
just weeks) than when i have allowed natural conditioning to take place
with just a few cells of stressed fermenting yeast that carry over. In
that case it often takes months (even years) to develop sparkle and
'condition'. Unless you can measure the yeast count in some way and
regulate it e.g. in a laboratory you are stuck with 'seat of pants'
solutions. Also, you have little control over unknown variables such as
yeast nutrient factors and overall viability in such a situation.
Counting yeast is one thing, counting *live* yeast is another (though
there are ways you can do it in a lab eg by fluorescence microscopy).
You might ask yourself why there are virtually no bottle conditioned
ciders on the commercial market apart from those that are disgorged, or
those made by keeving and long experience with weak wild yeasts
(France). The answer is because it's too damned difficult as a reliable
21st century commercial proposition. Equally problematic for the
amateur. Sorry but that's how it is.
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
olbol
for bottling is relatively but not absolutely clear and just pitch my
teaspoon of sugar counting on the remaining suspended cells to do the
job. This is what I've been doing before coming up with my dregs+syrup
mixture and I guess this is still the most reliable way.
Michael Cobb
> olbol wrote:
>> Well, I've been doing this for two seasons, plus occasional beermaking
>> etc, and I don't know what you have to do to deform a properly
>> designed plastic bottle. I've got some marble-hard, with carbonation
>> lasting for half-hour after opening, no problem. I think if they can
>> stand coca-cola, they can stand anything.
>
> Not so. I have seen PET bottles explode. The result is not so likely to
> be damaging to life and limb but can still make a mess. Their working
> design pressure AFAIK is around 50 psi (3 bar) though they may take
> around 100 psi (6 bar) before they burst. That means in practice you
> should not have more than 10 g/l of priming sugar in the bottle. Double
> it at your own risk!
>
A few years ago I had some juice in an ex fizzy drink bottle, IIRC it was
pear juice. It got left and was found after a few weeks. The bottle had
not yet exploded but had increased from 2 litres to about 6 litres with
the head space of CO2 above the "juice". The plastic was quite thin and
would have probably split if left much longer!
Michael Cobb
Andrew Lea
Personally I think that is for the best, even though it may take many
months to accomplish! If there were anything more quantifiable and
reliable, people would already be shouting about it!