Wassail dates
Ray Blockley
Julian Back
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nfcider
Talking to Pete Symmons,(you might have seen him all blacked up in the
recent Oz Clark festive drink programe)the Gloucestershire Wassailling
season usually runs from old Christmas Day (6th Jan) through the 12
days to the 18th Jan,and the Morris men have a run of various farms
and villages etc.Some of the farm ones usually end up with a general
"knees up" and Harvest home feast in the farm barn after the orchard
ceremonies.
Barry
Cheshire Matt
makes sense to a West Country boy :)
"In the West Country, apple trees are traditionally wassailed on the eve
of 12th night. However, it's not as simple as that being 4th of Jan!
This is because of the change in protestant England from the Julian
calendar, to the Gregorian calendar in September 1752. (Catholic
countries had adopted the new calendar in 1582 when it was first
proposed by Pope Gregory XIII). This change of calendars resulted in
the "loss" of 11 days, leading to near riots.
So when to wassail? By old reckoning, this'd be the 4th Jan. But if
the calendar had not been tampered with, Christmas would now be on 5th
Jan, and 12th night would therefore be on 17th Jan - so the trees should
be wassailed on the 16th.
Seeking for a sign, great crowds gathered at Glastonbury at Christmas
(new date) 1753 to see what the sacred thorn would do (that thorn that
is reputed to be a descendent of one that had sprung from the staff of
Joseph of Arimathea. The thorn had the reputation of always coming into
bloom on Christmas Day. So crowds gathered to see if the thorn would
adopt the new calendar.
It did not. No blossom appeared until the 5th January - the appointed
time by the old style of reckoning. Nature and Supernature were thus
adhering to the old calendar and a wise man would follow their example.
Hence the proper date for wassailing apple trees in the West Country
[and I'm chosing to say Somerset here] still remains the 16th January -
the Eve of Twelfth Night (old style)."
So what the rest of yem ol' b#ggers round country do, I dinnum care -
16th Jan is when I do wassail. :)
Ex-somerset Matt
Melanie Wilson
> the 5th, 6th and 17th of January being cited as the correct date...
> Whereas some places seem to be concentrating their public Wassails over
> the weekend 15th to 17th January.
It isn't too confusing (honest) Once you are into weird date shifts through
history.
It is basically two dates because of the moving of the dates. One 17th Jan
is old twelth night, the other twelth night after the change of the calender
dates.
So basically Twelth night seems to be the correct day, but which date is the
real twelth night is where the confusion arises.
I'm going for Old twelth night just to spread out festivities. The weekend
thing is probably just to fit in around the general modern working week.
12th night being the end of Jarlstag or after Christians claimed and
reinvented it the festival of fools 5th or 17th Jan depending on the old or
new. 6th is Epiphany or was till recently.
We tend to bundle lots of traditions & religions together so along with the
date shift it all starts looking a bit weird & varies from place to place ,
probably depending on their whims or strength of religious leanings.
Mel
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Stephen Hayes
Agree that old twelfth night, 17th January, is likeliest contender for the
'correct' date. We went for 2nd Saturday in January for convenience and as
you say to spread the festive season out a bit.
I first agreed to host the wassail 10 years ago after being asked by the
squire of the Morris, he was very respectful of the fact that Julia and I
are Christians and wassailing as he saw it was pagan and might offend us, so
I said I'd think about it. Having down some research, I formed the opinion
that wassailing is a 'folk' custom which is essentially neutral and it can
be whatever you want it to be, as long as there is good cheer, a bonfire and
some warm spiced cider. Without intending to go off on a tangent which will
annoy atheist or pagan friends here, we feel that our orchard is a 'sacred
space' and pray and give thanks there all year round. As our then vicar
said, the church has taken over loads of old festivals, why not this one
too?
After a bit of experimenting, we decided to create our modern wassail
tradition with a bonfire at dusk to allow people to arrive in daylight, see
the fire and be outside in the dark for a bit (which is quite exciting and
more unusual than you'd think for city folks) and then get home at a
sensible time having had a fun adventure which is inclusive for children and
people with poor mobility. Some nights a few of us stay on later for chat,
song and cider round the bonfire, depending on mood and temperature,
sometimes until the frost has formed a dusting of icy powder on the
accordions! We have seen some wonderful planets and stars, and maybe we
shall this Saturday. We also do a specially decorated wassail cake. I like
to put a lot of really effective kindling in the fire to get it to go up
like a rocket, larch twigs, candle wax and beef dripping are part of it.
PS there is quite an exciting torchlit wassail procession from the pub to
the community orchard in the north Hampshire village of Hartley Wintney, led
by Hook Eagle Morris, which I think is this weekend, you'll easily find it
Googling on Hook Eagle Morris. They are a fierce looking lot! I've never
been as its the weekend of our event.
anyhow, Wassail!
Stephen
Ray Blockley
not an exact science as it is still bucketing it down with snow here and so
we will have to be flexible about when we can get to our plot to carry out
the actual Wassailing... In the meantime, at least we can practice on the
trees in the garden!
Dick Dunn
> > Wassail dates are confusing to say the least: so far I have come across
> > the 5th, 6th and 17th of January being cited as the correct date...
> > Whereas some places seem to be concentrating their public Wassails over
> > the weekend 15th to 17th January.
>
> It isn't too confusing (honest) Once you are into weird date shifts through
> history.
>
> It is basically two dates because of the moving of the dates. One 17th Jan
> is old twelth night, the other twelth night after the change of the calender
> dates.
But (being rather pedantic) the relationship between old and new
calendars keeps shifting! Yes, the big change, accepted in England
in September 1752, dropped 11 days. But then 1800 and 1900 added
two more days of discrepancy, so the old and new calendars are now
13 days apart.
Whatever.
We'll wassail tomorrow (which is now today for you folks).
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
Melanie Wilson
Exactly, I'm sure the trees arn't counting ;)
James Fidell
>> Whatever.
>
> Exactly, I'm sure the trees arn't counting ;)
According to an odd-looking chap on one of the Victorian Farm television
programmes (to which my six year old son is utterly addicted), wassail
was a generic farmers' celebration whatever "crop" they produced, not
just apples, so people might well wassail their sheep, cattle or wheat.
James
Melanie Wilson
programmes (to which my six year old son is utterly addicted), wassail
was a generic farmers' celebration whatever "crop" they produced, not
just apples, so people might well wassail their sheep, cattle or wheat
I'd agree given the wassail name origins back in Old English/Anglo Saxon and
possibily even further, this idea that East Midlands don't wasail seems a
nonsense given traditional wassail areas are not traditional Anglo saxon
settlement areas (but Romano British hang ons) , I think the rest of us just
let the tradition go earlier
Ray Blockley
> According to an odd-looking chap on one of the Victorian Farm television
> programmes (to which my six year old son is utterly addicted), wassail
> was a generic farmers' celebration whatever "crop" they produced, not
> just apples, so people might well wassail their sheep, cattle or wheat.
Coincidence or what...? I just got round to watching the Victorian Farm
Christmas episode this afternoon (snow stopped play...) and was very
interested in their take on Wassailing and their song.
James Fidell
> James wrote:
>
>> According to an odd-looking chap on one of the Victorian Farm television
>> programmes (to which my six year old son is utterly addicted), wassail
>> was a generic farmers' celebration whatever "crop" they produced, not
>> just apples, so people might well wassail their sheep, cattle or wheat.
>
> Coincidence or what...? I just got round to watching the Victorian Farm
> Christmas episode this afternoon (snow stopped play...) and was very
> interested in their take on Wassailing and their song.
I think (and my son may well be able to correct me on this point) that
there are actually three VF Christmas programmes, so it is indeed a
coincidence that you happened to see the right one :)
Bringing the thread back on-topic, I'm sure they did actually do
something about cider-making at one point, but I'm so overdosed on it
now that I'm not sure I can bear going back to watch them to find out.
Possibly I misunderstood as the series is set in Shropshire and may be
a little far north for cider-making to have been popular.
The three "stars" of the series were also involved in an earlier series
called "Tales From The Green Valley" which is largely similar, though
set in the early 1600s in the Welsh borders, so it would be interesting
if they'd covered cider-making then.
For anyone who has seen either series and enjoyed it I believe they're
broadcasting a new series this year called "The Edwardian Farm". I have
to admit that as a bit of "historical documentary" they're a little on
the "reality" side, but interesting and informative to watch
nonetheless and I often end up marvelling at the march of what we, in
such a cavalier manner, describe as "progress".
James
Cheshire Matt
the A49, between Church Stretton and Craven Arms. It's closer to
Herefordshire than you might think (we pass it on the way down there).
They did do a cider making piece - although not on a "Christmas Special"
- I think I've got it recorded somewhere. The farm has one of the old
horse powered mills where the wheel rolls round the groove, around a
central spindle. The press they use is a twin thread with the 3-point
stars on top to lever round with a couple of pieces of timber.
My view of the programme is that they're a little liberal with their
view of the time period spanned by the "victorian" bit. Seems they tend
to err on the (very) early victorian, and neglect to mention the
industrial improvements the period was responsible for. But then I
suppose a bit of gritty hardship makes better television...
Melanie Wilson
Another conincidence is that I once held a Victorian weekend there, years
ago, it was a pefect setting because very little had been altered. We hired
the hunting lodge (I think it was called) I noticed the prices are way
higher now though :( . I do a lot of Victorian re-enactment.
>They did do a cider making piece - although not on a "Christmas Special"
I've not seen the Christmas special yet, I must soon before iplayer runs
out, but I'll probably get the dvds again.
>My view of the programme is that they're a little liberal with their
view of the time period spanned by the "victorian" bit. Seems they tend
to err on the (very) early victorian,
Probably fair enough if they plan a Edwardian one you'd want to highlight
the differences, but rural areas wre often far behind anyhow, my Dad & his
late brother who were brought up on a farm in Lincolnshire felt it was very
much like theirs which was early 20th Century not Victorian at all. But
covering the whole of such a vast period, let alone the whole gamete of
possibilities that existed at any single time from region to region, is
impossible. Even I remember a thresher almost identical to the one used in
the program, in use in my youth.
> and neglect to mention the
industrial improvements the period was responsible for.
But it wasn't a study of the industrial processes but farming :)
> But then I
suppose a bit of gritty hardship makes better television...
For once I actually found this watchable, unlike most of the recent TV
series of this kind which seem more interested in making the participants
look like idiots and select people generally on their lack of knowledge &
entertainment value. Having been interviewed & having turned down a few, and
knowing people one a couple of these. Mostly , I feel, they are despicable
in their methodology & lack of real interest to even provide passing facts,
twisting things to make past peoples into savages with no knowledge and
brains which is far from the truth. That one of food which had great
potential was just diabolical IMHO Ok off my soap box.
I think farm life was & still is pretty hard so that is realistic. The
references the consulted were sound and well worth looking at if you want to
know more (most can be found on google books) I particularly though the
woman (Ruth ?) was good and really did the cooking side justice. I'm told
the Christmas special wasn't as good, but I've yet to see it.
Ray Blockley
> I think farm life was & still is pretty hard so that is realistic. The
> references the consulted were sound and well worth looking at if you want
> to
> know more (most can be found on google books) I particularly though the
> woman (Ruth ?) was good and really did the cooking side justice. I'm told
> the Christmas special wasn't as good, but I've yet to see it.
We've watched the whole lot and the earlier set series. It is easy to pick
holes in them but at least they try to get stuck in and give a *glimpse* of
the realities (without being a "Big Brother Get Me X-Factor Out Of Britain's
Got Talent Here" type crass viewing).
Ruth is OK apart from that irritating nervous laugh. Was everything funny in
Victorian times? ;-)
Yarlington Mill
of the weather but because Mike Johnson did not get his event licence
application delivered in time. It will now take place on Saturday 23rd
Jan.
Regards
John Parry