Another champagne question.. Disgorging and stuck ferment

[Mick]

Hi all,

I managed to start my champagne off by clearing the wine by adding
champagne yeast and sugar to it, bottling it up and putting cages on
them.

I have two differnt types of champers going, the first is orange
champagne (which tastes really nice). This has gone off to a flying
start and has clouded up nicely, thus making me beleive is is
fermenting once again in the bottle.

However, the seckond, an apple and grape champagne of about 14% is
still as clear as i was when it was in the bottle. Thus suggesting
that it has not started to ferment at all. The only things i can think
of is the the chamagne yeast cannot tolerate the strenth of the wine
or there is not enough neutrients in there? Has anyone come across
this before? What remidies can you think of?

As to the disgorging, what is the best way to do this with minimal
loss of champagne when the cork is opened?

Many thanks. Mick

[Dries Muylaert]

Champaignyeast should be able to go to 17 %. Will take a little bit more time because of the high alcohol content. Problem probably not nutrients.

Normally a champaign fermentation is done at lower temperatures, about 10 Celcius, as is the maturing 'op latten' afterwards. Good maturing (taking the flavour of the autolysis) can take up to 2 years, but that's your choice. The moment the yeast settles down an fermentation ends (black debris on the bottom) degorging is possible/

Best is to top the bottle with a hollow capsule and a crown cap or with a hollow champaign stop. By gradually moving the bottle upside down (2-3 weeks) the yeast will rise into the cap. A salt brine is than made (percentage escapes me, I'll look it up if you want) and put at -18 celcius in the freezer. The bottle's head is dipped in the brine for about 3 minutes, freezing the content of the hollow cap. The bottle is than held at about 45 degrees and the cap is removed, the capsule with frozen content blows out. Carefull, 6 bar is a lot of pressure. The bottle should be degorged at about 2-4 Celcius, even lower, to temper the pressure, not to loose any liquid.

 

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[ja...@ashridgecider.co.uk]

Hi Mick, and welcome to the land of champagne method ciders. I have been
specialising in champagne method cider for the last 10 yrs. and have been
through most of the learning, but no doubt there is always more to learn!
When I first started disgorging, the amount we lost per bottle was
significant and suffice to say it was uneconomic. The skill is all in the
timing and coordination of the up-turning of the bottle, the precise moment
you flip off the cork, the angle you do it, the speed that you do it, and
last but not least how frozen the neck of your bottle is. You can over
freeze, as much as under freeze.
I used to use a large flat tray containing ice to which was added a good
amount of salt. This lowers the freezing point. Holes were drilled in a
covering sheet of ply of the right size to take the bottles upside down.
This worked after a fashion but the temp never really got low enough. If you
have more time then this method should work for you, but we try and do 750
bottles a day so the time taken to freeze the neck needs to be quite quick.
I now use a tank filled with a very concentrated solution of calcium
chloride connected to a condenser unit from a fridge and we get down to
minus 25 degrees C.
The tank has a crude stirrer, and even at this temp the contents remain
fluid.
One other variable I forgot to mention, is the amount of yeast sediment you
are trying to disgorge. Ideally you are trying to keep your sediment to
about the size of a large broad bean. However, I have successfully disgorged
some ciders that have thrown a larger amount of sediment. You might just
have to wait a bit longer for it to freeze up enough so that when you invert
the bottle the yeast doesn't just fall off in the bottle and remain to cause
a tertiary fermentation later. This is more likely if you are going to add a
"dosage" i.e. a shot of sugar solution to sweeten up the cider (or whatever)
a touch.

Best of luck, and last point, the longer you leave the product on the lees,
the better , generally. I find a minimum of 18 months for cider.

Cheers, Jason

________________________________________
Ashridge Cider
Barkingdon Farm
Staverton
Totnes
Devon TQ9 6AN
Tel/Fax: 01364 654749
Mob: 07919 992934
E: ja...@ashridgecider.co.uk
W: www.ashridgecider.co.uk

[Mick]

Thanks for the very detailed info to the pair of you. I wounderd why
salt was added to the freezing mix and the penny didnt drop about
lower freezing temps. i think i need to invest in a wine rack that
will hold bottles 45 degrees south?

I did a couple in swing top bottles so added a bit of neutrient last
nite to see what happnes.

So i presume on normal champagne bottles you get through two lots of
cages for stoppers?

Many thanks. mick

[ja...@ashridgecider.co.uk]

Hi Mick. With normal champagne bottles there is a double lip on the neck of
the bottle. When bottling up at the start of the secondary fermentation you
use a normal crown cap. At disgorging you then use a proper cork and cage.
You can get plastic "corks", but I have found they do not keep in the fizz
for very long. Putting in a proper champagne cork into a bottle is no mean
feat without a machine to squeeze the cork small enough to get it into the
bottle. If you do use corks, beware! Do not put them in too far... they will
not come out again. Put them in so that the bottom of the cork is level with
the lowest rim on the neck. It doesn't look far enough, but I assure you,
when you then apply the cage, that then mushrooms over the cork and helps
provide a further seal.

Jason

________________________________________
Ashridge Cider
Barkingdon Farm
Staverton
Totnes
Devon TQ9 6AN
Tel/Fax: 01364 654749
Mob: 07919 992934
E: ja...@ashridgecider.co.uk
W: www.ashridgecider.co.uk

-----Original Message-----
From: Mick [mailto:call...@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 18 November 2009 08:37
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Another champagne question.. Disgorging and
stuck ferment