RE: [Cider Workshop] US-based: brewpub affiliation as a way to commercial sales

[Stephen Linne]

I do not think Federal law will allow Cider making on a brewery site. Check State law as well. In Maine, breweries cannot make Cider since it is classified as a wine and wineries cannot make barley wine since it is classified as a beer.Steve Linne
Blacksmiths Winery

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Original message
From: "Nat West"  
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Received: 2/15/2010 4:15:06 PM
Subject: [Cider Workshop] US-based: brewpub affiliation as a way to commercial sales?

This is primarily a question for US-based members since US laws are quite different that UK laws.

I have been toying with the idea of selling some of my cider, but would prefer that it happened gradually, starting small, without a lot of up-front headaches and monetary investment. One route would be to ride on another alcohol-producing operation, namely a winery or brewpub. I had imagined using some of their facilities to prepare and ferment the cider, using their kitchen facilities as the health department inspection point, and in return, offering them a generous wholesale price on bottled cider. Or an alternate way to think of it would be as a cider-making operation in their existing brewing business. They pay me commission for every bottle of cider they sell which I make for them, using their facilities. In both cases, the cider could be exclusively sold by them. The goal would be to make more cider, sell more cider and completely skip the paperwork for selling alcohol.

Well along comes just such an opportunity. A new brewpub is opening down the street from my house and they got word of my cidermaking operation and we're going to have a conversation about the possibilities. Like most new businesses around here, they see money to be made in the "local food" movement. Before that conversation, I'm wondering if anyone in the group has advice about this situation. I.e. what works, what doesn't, what questions to ask, what to expect, etc. I have not thought much about it, beyond wanting to talk to a brewpub owner and see if there is some common ground between our operations.

Thanks,

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

p.s. I am sending this same message to the Cider Digest, so excuse the cross-post.

[from Heather]

Steve might be right on that. Wandering Aengus Ciderworks just to the south of Nat, and myself, in Salem, OR is licensed as a winery. Nat, you might also poise the question to OSU since they have a fermentation major and would be the extention office providers. Maybe they know something? I'm curious what you find out.

Heather

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From: ste...@maine.rr.com
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] US-based: brewpub affiliation as a way to commercial sales?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:34:58 -0500

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[Dick Dunn]

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 07:34:20PM +0000, from Heather wrote:
> Steve might be right on that...

(What Steve had said was:
>> I do not think Federal law will allow Cider making on a brewery site...

Steve is right in principle, as well as in practice: Cider is wine,
and breweries and wineries must be separate.
There are some odd dodges--for example a brewery can make a "cider" if it
has some amount of malt in it. And there's a way for a brewery and a
winery to alternate the use of premises. But none of this is where you
want to go if you're trying to ease your way into commercial cidermaking--
it's buying you more complexity than you need.

In the legal sense in the US, cider is wine, so the place where it is
made is legally a winery. (State laws may or may not say anything about
combining a brewery and winery, but that doesn't matter because you still
must meet federal constraints, which dictate that the two cannot be
combined.)

But back to Nat's question: The simple answer is just to work with a
winery. And yes, that is a good way to go, if you can find the right
winery. It's what I've done for three years now--I work with a small
winery (actually a meadery, but mead is wine too) in a nearby town.

Here's what I suggest--not the only way to do it, but it has worked for
me: Make an agreement with the winery that you will make cider on their
premises. Tell them what batch size you want to make and about how long
you expect it to take--this is particularly important if you're using
their equipment since they need to know how long the vessels will be
tied up. Since the cider is made under their license, it will carry
their label. They will have to be the sellers-of-record, and they will
pay the taxes. Agree on what expenses are to be charged against sales.
(Remember testing, bottles, labels, caps.)
You can approach it as you selling them juice at an agreed price, after
which they make the cider, although of course you'll be deeply involved!
Decide how you'll divide the profit after expenses are reckoned.

BTW, the cider must be made on the winery premises; you cannot ferment it
yourself and take it to them afterward.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA