Fwd: [chromebook-central] To be clear: Dexterity-Impaired Persons Aren't Included?

[Gary Morin]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <chromeboo...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 4:48 PM
Subject: [chromebook-central] To be clear: Dexterity-Impaired Persons Aren't Included?
To: chromeboo...@googlegroups.com


When I applied to the program, I stated that was not sight-impaired, that I had dexterity impairments, and that I used speech recognition software.  To be clear, then, I and people like me really aren't included in this program, are we, even though some of us have received Chrome devices?

Is Google working on making Chrome compatible with existing speech recognition software (ideally) or, at least, building its own integrated speech recognition software program?  or, as it has historically, is Google only focusing on the computer accessibility needs of persons who are blind or sight-impaired?

Even if it's not the answer I would like, please be honest and transparent in your response.

Sincerely,

Gary M. Morin

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Gary

Gary M. Morin
(301) 980-9649 Cell and Text Messaging

[Magi Shepley]

I am also looking for this feature for students that I teach. I have several who benefit from both text to speech & speech to text either because of physical disabilities or learning. So far, we have used the Read & Write extension on Google docs because that is available on all school desktops. But, that doesn't allow speech to text on Chrome.

Magi

[Marvin Williams]

Reading this, I'm wondering are you looking for speech recognition control of the operating system or just speech recognition for dictation into documents? 

[Magi Shepley]

In my case, right now, I'm just looking for text entry. I don't really have any students who need voice control. I have one student who uses a switch, and the Chromebook would be impossible for him to use. He uses an iPad for access & s's a communication system.

[Marvin Williams]

If you're looking for something for text entry, have you tried the Speech Recognizer, an app in the chrome web store? It works pretty well. Might be worth a look as far as text entry goes.

Control of the OS is indeed another story. I'm waiting for my USB switch interface to come back to see just how the device handles switch navigation if at all. 

[Min Li Chan]

Thanks for your questions, Gary. Our goal is to improve the accessibility experience on Chrome OS for all users. You're right that the accessibility feature set is currently limited but as we get more usage and feedback such as through this trusted tester program, we'll be working to expand as quickly as we can. So we're starting small but we aren't done yet, and we're also open to working with third-party developers who are interested in writing add-on apps and extensions to help accelerate the development of accessibility features for Chrome OS. Thanks again for your feedback, and for keeping us honest.

On Friday, April 5, 2013 1:54:14 PM UTC-7, Gary Morin wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <chromeboo...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 4:48 PM
Subject: [chromebook-central] To be clear: Dexterity-Impaired Persons Aren't Included?
To: chromeboo...@googlegroups.com


When I applied to the program, I stated that was not sight-impaired, that I had dexterity impairments, and that I used speech recognition software.  To be clear, then, I and people like me really aren't included in this program, are we, even though some of us have received Chrome devices?

Is Google working on making Chrome compatible with existing speech recognition software (ideally) or, at least, building its own integrated speech recognition software program?  or, as it has historically, is Google only focusing on the computer accessibility needs of persons who are blind or sight-impaired?

Even if it's not the answer I would like, please be honest and transparent in your response.

Sincerely,

Gary M. Morin

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[James Nuttall]

Thanks for the feedback. The assistance with dexterity issues also affects me. I'm struggling to do the multiple key combinations

James Nuttall 

On Apr 5, 2013, at 10:12 PM, Min Li Chan <mlc...@google.com> wrote:

Thanks for your questions, Gary. Our goal is to improve the accessibility experience on Chrome OS for all users. You're right that the accessibility feature set is currently limited but as we get more usage and feedback such as through this trusted tester program, we'll be working to expand as quickly as we can. So we're starting small but we aren't done yet, and we're also open to working with third-party developers who are interested in writing add-on apps and extensions to help accelerate the development of accessibility features for Chrome OS. Thanks again for your feedback, and for keeping us honest.

On Friday, April 5, 2013 1:54:14 PM UTC-7, Gary Morin wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <chromeboo...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 4:48 PM
Subject: [chromebook-central] To be clear: Dexterity-Impaired Persons Aren't Included?
To: chromeboo...@googlegroups.com


When I applied to the program, I stated that was not sight-impaired, that I had dexterity impairments, and that I used speech recognition software.  To be clear, then, I and people like me really aren't included in this program, are we, even though some of us have received Chrome devices?

Is Google working on making Chrome compatible with existing speech recognition software (ideally) or, at least, building its own integrated speech recognition software program?  or, as it has historically, is Google only focusing on the computer accessibility needs of persons who are blind or sight-impaired?

Even if it's not the answer I would like, please be honest and transparent in your response.

Sincerely,

Gary M. Morin

--
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[Valerie Maples]

Sticky keys and speech recognition (both navigational and text entry) would be helpful to me and my husband, a quadriplegic.

[Matthew Nixon]

Stickey keys for Chromevox are turned on by tapping the search key twice.

[Albert J Rizzi]

Might I ask that we consider changing the subject lines to address the concerns of the inquiry, or the share intended by the post? It would help in appreciating the continuum  of the thoughts and issues we need to address, or at least that is my opinion.

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[greg smith]

i also have a dexterity and fatigue problems with ms.  multiple keys are almost impossible and without speech recognition, the chromebook is like a job.  is speech recog being worked on? 

[Kevin Chao]

I agree re: Google a11y Trusted Tester Program registration form being
restricted to blind/low vision, excluding other disabilities, and the
same has been the case with Chrome OS, Chrome, Docs, Drive, etc. It's
all focused around screen magnification, reader, and contrast; nothing
for physical/motor or learning disabilities.

On 4/6/13, greg smith <gsmit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i also have a dexterity and fatigue problems with ms. multiple keys are
> almost impossible and without speech recognition, the chromebook is like a
> job. is speech recog being worked on?
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Matthew Nixon <jous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

>> **

>> Stickey keys for Chromevox are turned on by tapping the search key twice.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----

>> *From:* Valerie Maples <vlmap...@gmail.com>
>> *To:* chromebook-acces...@googlegroups.com
>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 06, 2013 2:45 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [chromebook-central] To be clear: Dexterity-Impaired

>>>> *Gary*
>>>>
>>>> Gary M. Morin
>>>> (301) 980-9649 <%28301%29%20980-9649> Cell and Text Messaging
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Kevin Chao]

+1 agreed!

On 4/6/13, Albert J Rizzi <alb...@myblindspot.org> wrote:
> Might I ask that we consider changing the subject lines to address the
> concerns of the inquiry, or the share intended by the post? It would help
> in
> appreciating the continuum of the thoughts and issues we need to address,
> or at least that is my opinion.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: chromebook-acces...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:chromebook-acces...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Matthew Nixon
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:17 AM
> To: chromebook-acces...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [chromebook-central] To be clear: Dexterity-Impaired Persons
> Aren't Included?
>
>
>
> Stickey keys for Chromevox are turned on by tapping the search key twice.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>

> (301) 980-9649 <tel:%28301%29%20980-9649> Cell and Text Messaging
>
>
>
> _____

[Lynne Deese]

Hi Gary, 

I am an assistive technologist and I plan to be experimenting with access for person with physical disabilities. I will certainly share what I come up with. 

A. Lynne Deese, MA, ATP

NC Assistive Technology Program

[Gary Morin]

First let me state that I'm not composing this e-mail on the Chrome Book; rather, I'm working on a Dell laptop computer dictating through Dragon NaturallySpeaking version 11.  I use Dragon NaturallySpeaking both for composing or dictating text as well as to manage application functions. So it's not just a matter of a need for speech in some places but not in others.  While I do have some use of my hands and do resort to using that remaining functionality, for the long-term I find it best to use speech recognition software as often and as broadly as possible.

 

Thank you Ms. Chan for responding to the concern of the lack of accessibility for persons with dexterity impairments or with physical disabilities. I certainly don't have a problem keeping Google honest and please note that my intent is not to be rude or aggressive, even though that's certainly how I'm characterized (my own federal agency has been trying to dismiss me for years you go along to get along regarding its less than pro active implementation of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended, including Section 508, most recently).  But the discussion here should not have to be about keeping Google honest but, rather, focused on resolving computer bugs and improving the accessibility of the Chromebook.  Having to remind Google but proper definitions of accessibility is a distraction.  It is not, certainly, unique to Google (though the limited scope of pages like https://www.google.com/accessibility/products/ doesn't help matters any).

 

On a day-to-day basis at work, I have to grit my teeth and advocate, teach or educate, and fight to ensure that people know the range of disabilities in the range of functional limitations that are impacted by poorly designed and developed Electronic and Information Technologies (EIT).  Not infrequently, I encounter websites or online learning modules which offer an alternative, allegedly accessible version which was designed with screen readers and persons with vision impairments in mind. When I ask the course owner which version I should take, as a sighted person using speech recognition software because of injuries to my wrist, hand, and shoulders, they're stumped.  Invariably, neither the inaccessible or the allegedly accessible version is accessible to me and to others who are using speech recognition software.

 

I don't know how we come to this juncture, where accessibility is defined based on one specific type of assistive technology (screen readers) and one specific disability or functional limitation (blindness or sight impairment).  Whether we attribute it to the Brotherhood of Man or to any number of politicians or activists, people with various disabilities and various functional limitations, together with accessibility specialists and IT developers required to make their EIT accessible, willingly or not, need to take the position that "United we stand, divided we fall."

 

 

You state that Google is "open to working with third-party developers who are interested in writing add-on apps and extensions to help accelerate the development of accessibility features for Chrome OS."  Which developers has Google reached out to work with?  Once, of course, is the largest vendor, loading Dragon NaturallySpeaking and other similar applications which they've absorbed.  Not additionally be one application on the market but they do seem to have the market share this point, to my knowledge.  Is Google creating these partnerships, with vendors such as Nuance, Freedom Scientific, NVDA, Dolphin, to name just a few?

 

The concerns of people with dexterity impairments or physical disabilities have been raised to Google in the past - search through the archives of the Google accessibility listserv and you'll see questions there. Unfortunately, the responses from Google employees have been few and far between.  One of the answers that has been presented on more than one occasion is that Google is too large a corporation and to decentralized for there to be a uniform implementation of accessibility from the concept and development stage on up through the presentation stage.  Employees have to follow policies regarding any other issue, I'm sure that one on accessibility in its broadest sense can be just as effectively implemented.  You'll pardon me if my learning that Google proudly keeps it finances offshore so as to avoid paying US federal taxes has made me question its motto of Do No Evil.

 

Since the accessibility or "trusted tester program" is focused on sight-related accessibility, I'm not sure how Google is going to get the appropriate feedback for other limited functionality access to the chromebook or any other Google product.  Yes, you might get editorial feedback which I have no doubt is valuable and necessary if studied and analyzed.  Unfortunately, my own concern is that it will be dismissed or not read by the technical staff who only looking for "computer bugs" and do not see the bigger picture.

 

Lastly, has Google conducted any in-person usability testing?  Perhaps you could sort your trusted tester membership listing, perhaps even and putting those who are not approved and did not get a chrome book, and set up in person testing sessions. I know that you have an office here in Washington DC and perhaps in other locations. No doubt you could find enough people in any one location to set up such usability and accessibility testing. Self reporting, through the chrome book distribution program, no doubt has its benefits; software and hardware developers actually watching us try to use their products often has entirely new and unpredictable benefits, as well. 

 

Thank you for your time and if anyone can point me to specific speech recognition applications, speech dictation, or Google extensions (whatever they are) that will help me use the chromebook, I would greatly appreciate it.

 

(I think I have spell checked this well but, again, I dictated this using speech recognition software while also having a lousy cold causing my speech to be other than what DNS has been trained to recognize.)

 

Hoping everyone's weekend the sunny,

 

Gary Morin

[Daria]

One should also think about this. While I agree with you on dexterity in paired persons needing accommodations on any piece of technology it might also be good to note that those with learning disabilities often use the same things that low vision and blind people do for ease of access. Some one with dexterity issues correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this basically a question of keyboard functionality and hand usage on said keyboard? If Google can come up with something comparable to Dragon naturally speaking or Jay say which is a bridge to Dragon for jaws users then there go most of the difficulties yes? If other companies could come up with something that could work in conjunction with either a screen reader or separately it would be good as well for courses and such. But, since this is a discussion about Google why don't we focus more on Google and then worry about pounding on other companies doors asking for additional accessibility support For other disabilities. While we are  discussing  this does anyone here know what people who have CP who have lost the use of one or both hands and have some form of speech impediment can do to use a computer? It might be nice if we could work that out too. I would love to email back and forth with a friend of mine but she's had a stroke and as far is I know can't really use a computer dictation or note dictation because of her speech and the loss of all the functionality in one hand and little to no functionality in the other.   I think that when we speak of accessibility it should be accessible for any and all users not just a small group. I'm blind and partially deaf myself so I can definitely vouch for the difficulty involved there. I could go on but I won't."All I will say to end this is keep working on it and do everything you can to make this machine accessible to  everyone! And I do mean everyone.      
Sent from my iPhone

[Kyle]

Working with third-party companies such as Newance and Freedom
Scientific, who have a history of overpricing products for people with
disabilities just because they can, is not at all in Google's best
interest, especially as it pertains to keeping prices reasonable for all
users while implementing accessibility for all users. Rather, it would
be most beneficial for Google to port their own speech recognition and
dictation software, which as I understand has become quite good of late,
to Chrome OS. I only have Gingerbread on my phone, so I can't speak to
the improvements in Jellybean's speech recognition, but by all accounts,
it is quite usable and accurate now, and making it available on ChromeOS
could help ChromeOS users who need accessibility features that screen
readers cannot provide.
~Kyle
http://kyle.tk/
--
"Kyle? ... She calls her cake, Kyle?"
Out of This World, season 2 episode 21 - "The Amazing Evie"

[Valerie Maples]

First, I do not know how to change subject line in this new forum; it is not readily visible to me.  Sorry!

Second, that "sticky keys" is not the traditional sticky keys for PWPD, but rather a navigational key (likely for the blind?).  In the traditional form, it allows the user to activate two keys at once while only pressing one at a time, such as in first letter of sentence capitalization or control-w for closing a window, For people with dexterity problems, or one finger/tool typing, this is critical.

Valerie

[Dominic Mazzoni]

To change the subject line, just compose a new email to chromebook-accessibility-testers rather than replying to an existing email. It's as simple as that, but it makes a big difference. When you bring up a new issue in a reply to an existing message, it's more likely to get accidentally missed.

Thanks,

- Dominic

[Valerie Maples]

Awkward for me with learning disabilities since I like to quote and there is no traditional sticky keys for my dexterity issues right now, but thanks, Dominic. 

[Matthew Nixon]

Sticky keys adds the chromevox prefix to all of your keystrokes, making single keystroke use of the chromevox navigation and reading tools possible.

I think you bring up a great point, that even for people without dexterity issues, the navigational system and short cut keystrokes usually involve either a combination of keys (like shift-search-r for reading from the current location) which are impractical for people with average finger reach and flexibility or double strokes for common navigational mechanisms like chromevox-n-h to go to the next heading.

It makes moving around the screen clunkey.  For me it also is really anoying since it's difficult to jump past text to get to the items I want without multiple strokes (something JAWS enables with single strokes.)

[peggy]

That’s what I’m finding confusing is the combination of keys you push this for that and that for this ... hard to remember all those keys ... This too is where a braille copy of more of these keystrokes would be helpful, a few of them are on there but a detailed brailled copy of these keystrokes would really help me.

> mailto:chromebook-central%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com.

>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Gary
>
> Gary M. Morin

> (301) 980-9649 <tel:%28301%29%20980-9649>  Cell and Text Messaging

>
>
>
>   _____
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6226 - Release Date: 04/05/13
>
> No virus found in this message.
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> Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6223 - Release Date: 04/03/13
>
>

 

Laughter is timeless, imagination has no age, and dreams are forever.

[Daniel Crone]

I would really like to turn off the option to have sticky keys, until I
want them again.

On 04/09/2013 09:32 AM, peggy wrote:
> That’s what I’m finding confusing is the combination of keys you push
> this for that and that for this ... hard to remember all those keys ...
> This too is where a braille copy of more of these keystrokes would be
> helpful, a few of them are on there but a detailed brailled copy of
> these keystrokes would really help me.

> *From:* Matthew Nixon <mailto:jous...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 07, 2013 10:45 AM
> *To:* chromebook-acces...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:chromebook-acces...@googlegroups.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Sticky Keys

> Sticky keys adds the chromevox prefix to all of your keystrokes, making
> single keystroke use of the chromevox navigation and reading tools possible.
> I think you bring up a great point, that even for people without
> dexterity issues, the navigational system and short cut keystrokes
> usually involve either a combination of keys (like shift-search-r for
> reading from the current location) which are impractical for people with
> average finger reach and flexibility or double strokes for common
> navigational mechanisms like chromevox-n-h to go to the next heading.
> It makes moving around the screen clunkey. For me it also is really
> anoying since it's difficult to jump past text to get to the items I
> want without multiple strokes (something JAWS enables with single strokes.)
>
> ----- Original Message -----

> *From:* Valerie Maples <mailto:vlmap...@gmail.com>
> *To:* chromebook-acces...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:chromebook-acces...@googlegroups.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 07, 2013 3:08 AM
> *Subject:* Re: changing the subject lines...

> First, I do not know how to change subject line in this new forum;
> it is not readily visible to me. Sorry!
> Second, that "sticky keys" is not the traditional sticky keys for
> PWPD, but rather a navigational key (likely for the blind?). In the
> traditional form, it allows the user to activate two keys at once
> while only pressing one at a time, such as in first letter of
> sentence capitalization or control-w for closing a window, For
> people with dexterity problems, or one finger/tool typing, this is
> critical.
> Valerie
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Kevin Chao <kevin...@gmail.com
> <mailto:kevin...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> +1 agreed!
>
> On 4/6/13, Albert J Rizzi <alb...@myblindspot.org

> <mailto:vlmap...@gmail.com>>
> >
> > To: chromebook-acces...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:chromebook-acces...@googlegroups.com>

> >
> > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 2:45 AM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [chromebook-central] To be clear:
> Dexterity-Impaired Persons
> > Aren't Included?
> >
> >
> >
> > Sticky keys and speech recognition (both navigational and
> text entry) would
> > be helpful to me and my husband, a quadriplegic.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 9:39 PM, James Nuttall

> <nuttal...@gmail.com <mailto:nuttal...@gmail.com>>

> > wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the feedback. The assistance with dexterity issues
> also affects
> > me. I'm struggling to do the multiple key combinations
> >
> > James Nuttall
> >
> >
> > On Apr 5, 2013, at 10:12 PM, Min Li Chan <mlc...@google.com

> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

> > Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6226 - Release
> Date: 04/05/13
> >
> > No virus found in this message.

> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>

[Beth Koenig]

Please note that their is a difference between sticky keys and sticky mode. Sticky mode is only for the ChromeVox key. Sticky keys is for the shift, control, and alt keys. Their might be more sticky keys but I don't know as I don't really use the feature. 

Thanks,

Beth Koenig
bet...@gmail.com
(714) 699-DEAF (3323)
Deaf Blind Services Specialist
Executive Director
Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center
1525 Durant Street 303
Santa Ana, CA 92706
http://www.deafadvocacy.org
Health, safety, and productivity are the cornerstones of independence. At the Orange County Deaf Advocacy Center we provide the training and services necessary for the deaf and disabled to achieve equality and independence in all areas of life.

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Daniel Crone <quirky...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would really like to turn off the option to have sticky keys, until I want them again.

On 04/09/2013 09:32 AM, peggy wrote:

That’s what I’m finding confusing is the combination of keys you push
this for that and that for this ... hard to remember all those keys ...
This too is where a braille copy of more of these keystrokes would be
helpful, a few of them are on there but a detailed brailled copy of
these keystrokes would really help me.

*From:* Matthew Nixon <mailto:jous...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, April 07, 2013 10:45 AM

*To:* chromebook-accessibility-tes...@googlegroups.com
<mailto:chromebook-accessibility-testers@googlegroups.com>

*Subject:* Re: Sticky Keys

Sticky keys adds the chromevox prefix to all of your keystrokes, making
single keystroke use of the chromevox navigation and reading tools possible.
I think you bring up a great point, that even for people without
dexterity issues, the navigational system and short cut keystrokes
usually involve either a combination of keys (like shift-search-r for
reading from the current location) which are impractical for people with
average finger reach and flexibility or double strokes for common
navigational mechanisms like chromevox-n-h to go to the next heading.
It makes moving around the screen clunkey. For me it also is really
anoying since it's difficult to jump past text to get to the items I
want without multiple strokes (something JAWS enables with single strokes.)

    ----- Original Message -----

    *From:* Valerie Maples <mailto:vlmap...@gmail.com>

    *To:* chromebook-accessibility-tes...@googlegroups.com
    <mailto:chromebook-accessibility-testers@googlegroups.com>

         > From: chromebook-accessibility-tes...@googlegroups.com
        <mailto:chromebook-accessibility-testers@googlegroups.com>

         > [mailto:chromebook-accessibility-testers@googlegroups.com

        <mailto:chromebook-accessibility-testers@googlegroups.com>] On

        Behalf Of
         > Matthew Nixon
         > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:17 AM

         > To: chromebook-accessibility-tes...@googlegroups.com

        <mailto:chromebook-accessibility-testers@googlegroups.com>

         > Subject: Re: [chromebook-central] To be clear:
        Dexterity-Impaired Persons
         > Aren't Included?
         >
         >
         >
         > Stickey keys for Chromevox are turned on by tapping the
        search key twice.
         >
         >
         >
         > ----- Original Message -----
         >
         > From: Valerie Maples <mailto:vlmap...@gmail.com

        <mailto:vlmap...@gmail.com>>
         >

         > To: chromebook-accessibility-tes...@googlegroups.com
        <mailto:chromebook-accessibility-testers@googlegroups.com>

         >
         > Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 2:45 AM
         >
         > Subject: Re: [chromebook-central] To be clear:
        Dexterity-Impaired Persons
         > Aren't Included?
         >
         >
         >
         > Sticky keys and speech recognition (both navigational and
        text entry) would
         > be helpful to me and my husband, a quadriplegic.
         >
         >
         >
         > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 9:39 PM, James Nuttall

        <nuttal...@gmail.com <mailto:nuttall.james@gmail.com>>

[William James]

As I write this, I am realizing a lot of us are coming from various backgrounds.  I feel it is prudent for us to remember, this is not going to simulate the same thing we all came from, whether it be DOS, (like myself), Windows, MACS and so on.  We have to adapt to the changes here, so let's at least try to adapt, but yet be constructive when offering feedback.  

Just my two cents worth...