Re: [ChiVinMoto]: Lithium Ion Batteries

[TEAM...@aol.com]

Joe & List,

 This raises a question for me that maybe someone on list can answer or we can discuss. If you use a lithium ion or other such modern battery will the vintage charging systems of our old bikes stand up to them? Will they charge them adequately? Will the batteries stand up to weak generators or alternators? Will they withstand surges from old charging systems? Are they really worth seeking out as replacements for the stock lead acid battery when we have such good sources available to us such as Illinois & J C Whitney? Especially since you can upgrade almost any lead acid with a sealed maintainence free unit.

"D" J V 

 

In a message dated 1/27/2012 8:06:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, joer...@yahoo.com writes:

Anyone have experience running the new Lithium Ion batteries in their
vintage bikes?
The manufacturer claims a battery tender is not needed since they hold
their charge so well.
Thanks
Joe

--
Wed Nite Garage:

Jan 18th = Robert in Six Corners Cicero/Irving Park/Milwaukee
Jan 25th = ?????  come on folks this Anarcho/Commune doesn't run itself
Feb 8th = Beck and Dan Land Speed Record Nite in Wilmette

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[CB-Benjamin]

In the short time I've used AGM sealed batteries, I have grown to
prefer them. AGM (absorbed glass mat) basically uses the same
principle as older "wet" batteries in that they still use acid as an
electrolyte but it is absorbed into a fiber-glass mat making them
safer to ship. Gel batteries up the safety factor by truly
immobilizing the acid/fiber-glass combo. I started with the least
expensive upgrade, a Scorpion 12v for a 1983 Honda C70 (passport/
cub). C70s are known to provide extra juice from the alternators; if
you run a C70 long enough without a battery or a dead battery your
headlight will eventually burn out not to mention the stress to other
electrical components. The excess power and smaller battery size made
it an ideal candidate to try a more up to date battery. Do I still
use a battery tender? Yes, but not all the time and the charging time
is at least half of wet batteries if not even less. AGM/GEL batteries
do very well in the cold and below freezing temperatures. I had to
leave the C70 out for a couple days last week. Hooked up the battery
tender, took the trash out to the alley and the battery was already at
storage voltage by the time I got back. The next day I order a AGM
for the cb350. I don't know what Lithium Ion batteries are selling
for, but I'd guess they are not worth the extra cash for a +20 year
old bike.

On Jan 27, 10:01 am, TEAMGH...@aol.com wrote:
> Joe & List,
>  This raises a question for me that maybe someone on list can answer  or we
> can discuss. If you use a lithium ion or other such modern battery will
> the vintage charging systems of our old bikes stand up to them? Will they
> charge them adequately? Will the batteries stand up to weak generators or
> alternators? Will they withstand surges from old charging systems? Are they
> really worth seeking out as replacements for the stock lead acid battery  when
> we have such good sources available to us such as Illinois & J C  Whitney?
> Especially since you can upgrade almost any lead acid with a sealed
> maintainence free unit.
> "D" J V
>
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 8:06:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,
>

> joerin...@yahoo.com writes:
>
> Anyone  have experience running the new Lithium Ion batteries in their
> vintage  bikes?
> The manufacturer claims a battery tender is not needed since they  hold
> their charge so well.
> Thanks
> Joe
>
> --
> Wed Nite Garage:
>
> Jan 18th = Robert in Six Corners Cicero/Irving Park/Milwaukee
> Jan  25th = ?????  come on folks this Anarcho/Commune doesn't run  itself
> Feb 8th = Beck and Dan Land Speed Record Nite in  Wilmette
>

> Check out the ChiVinMoto Virtual  Garageshttp://www.vinmoto.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=24641

[Max Forster]

 Li-ion batteries seem to have different charging/discharging characteristics and at the very least your standard car charger can't be used on it.

Overcharging can lead to flames bursting out of it and over-discharging below 2.7V can turn it into a brick.

The batteries themselves may have have basic safety limit electronics built -in, but laptops and hybrid cars have pretty sophisticated battery management systems.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

-MAx..

[Glenn Shriver]

My fellow enthusiasts:   FWIW-- I don't know about lithium-ion (but I'm willing to learn!), but I've run regular gel-cell batteries (or AGMs?) in all of my bikes for the last 12-15 years--maybe longer.  I hate it when battery acid eats away the battery carriers & paint, your jeans, shirt, shoes, etc.   Regarding gel-cells for older bikes, I've never had a problem with the '36 Vincent-HRD 500cc single (6-volt, 35 watt generator w/ magneto ignition) and I try to comply with Illinois' "Lights On 24 Hours a Day" law.  Of course the entire elec. system consists of the headlamp (30-35 watt bulb), parking light (5 watts), speedo light (3 watts), and a tail light (5-7 watts).  All state-of-the-art, 1936.  Sometimes I fit a very non-standard brake light.  (No on-board computer.)  Any batt will run down and with the meager Miller generator, I need to put a charger on it from time to time, but I can live with that. I get the largest gel-cell that will fit inside an emptied out old Brit-style hard rubber battery shell.   The Egli & '46 Chief, (w/ elec. starters) etc. all have modern 12-v generators or alternators, and again--I fit the largest gel-cell poss.  (Ditto, the '41 Indian 4-cylinder.)  It's handy on the Egli, as I was tight for space, so I mounted it on its end.   The '51 Rapide--also with after market elec. starter--has a larger deep cycle gel-cell boat battery hidden away in the boot of the Steib.  The combination has a few extra running, spot, & brake lights on the s/c.  I've fitted LED brake, parking, tail, instruments, & head lights.  LEDs are 10 x brighter, and use 1/10 the power that an incandescent does.    I love gel-cell batteries.  The only problem I've had is that on the smaller (6-v and some 12-v) gel-cell batteries, they don't have regular screw terminals, but spade, press-together terminals.  They're pretty flimsy, and they can brake off the top of the battery--due, I imagine, to rough road surfaces, vibration, & rudimentary, pre-war suspension. That's what I've found over the years. UG.   --- On Fri, 1/27/12, TEAM...@aol.com <TEAM...@aol.com> wrote:

[Jeff Stephens]

I've got one sitting on the shelf if you'd like to try it.

Godffery's Garage
http://tinyurl.com/yfrw4fc
8010 Gateway Drive,
Burlington WI. 53105
262 210-9269

[joer...@yahoo.com]

Thanks for all the great feedback...think I'll skip the Lithium for
now and stick with the tried and true.

On Jan 27, 10:01 am, TEAMGH...@aol.com wrote:

> Joe & List,
>  This raises a question for me that maybe someone on list can answer  or we
> can discuss. If you use a lithium ion or other such modern battery will
> the vintage charging systems of our old bikes stand up to them? Will they
> charge them adequately? Will the batteries stand up to weak generators or
> alternators? Will they withstand surges from old charging systems? Are they
> really worth seeking out as replacements for the stock lead acid battery  when
> we have such good sources available to us such as Illinois & J C  Whitney?
> Especially since you can upgrade almost any lead acid with a sealed
> maintainence free unit.
> "D" J V
>
> In a message dated 1/27/2012 8:06:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,
>

> joerin...@yahoo.com writes:
>
> Anyone  have experience running the new Lithium Ion batteries in their
> vintage  bikes?
> The manufacturer claims a battery tender is not needed since they  hold
> their charge so well.
> Thanks
> Joe
>
> --
> Wed Nite Garage:
>
> Jan 18th = Robert in Six Corners Cicero/Irving Park/Milwaukee
> Jan  25th = ?????  come on folks this Anarcho/Commune doesn't run  itself
> Feb 8th = Beck and Dan Land Speed Record Nite in  Wilmette
>

> Check out the ChiVinMoto Virtual  Garageshttp://www.vinmoto.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=24641

[Paul W Hahn]

I used a Shorai Lithium Ion battery in my 1996 Ducati 900 SS/SP last year. I used a battery tender on it as per the instructions from Shorai. They said not to use a pulse charger like my Xtreme charger. Besides saving 10 pounds, it cranked a lot faster. BTW, take a lead acid battery under 10 volts for any length of time and it is comprimised. 

Paul


Sent from my Samsung smartphone on AT&T

-------- Original message --------
Subject: Re: [ChiVinMoto]: Lithium Ion Batteries

From: Max Forster <mec...@gmail.com>
To: chivi...@googlegroups.com
CC:


 Li-ion batteries seem to have different charging/discharging characteristics and at the very least your standard car charger can't be used on it.

Overcharging can lead to flames bursting out of it and over-discharging below 2.7V can turn it into a brick.

The batteries themselves may have have basic safety limit electronics built -in, but laptops and hybrid cars have pretty sophisticated battery management systems.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

-MAx..

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:01 AM, <TEAM...@aol.com> wrote:

Joe & List,

 This raises a question for me that maybe someone on list can answer or we can discuss. If you use a lithium ion or other such modern battery will the vintage charging systems of our old bikes stand up to them? Will they charge them adequately? Will the batteries stand up to weak generators or alternators? Will they withstand surges from old charging systems? Are they really worth seeking out as replacements for the stock lead acid battery when we have such good sources available to us such as Illinois & J C Whitney? Especially since you can upgrade almost any lead acid with a sealed maintainence free unit.

"D" J V 

--

[Mike]

The deal with Lithium batteries as everyone has touched upon are the different charge/discharge characteristics.  A 12V lithium battery has 4 cells, each approximately 3.6V (3.3V for LiFePO4).  Those cells all charge and discharge at different rates from each other and become unbalanced over time.  The key to the longest life and highest output of these batteries is to keep the cells well balanced.  Most everything you will see on the market now is Lithium Iron Phosphate, or LiFePO4.  It has slightly less energy than a lithium ion solution but is much safer.   Instead of a nominal 3.6V they are a nominal 3.3V at full charge (13.2V).

Using a lead acid style battery charger will not keep the cells balanced and will lead to a sooner battery death.  You can still charge a lithium battery with them, but you end up with some cells overcharged and some cells undercharged.  The only way to ensure cell balance is with a BMS or Battery Management System.  The BMS will measure each cell and either apply a charge or discharge it slightly to maintain all cells within a tolerance.  I believe someone has already alluded to the fact that laptops and other devices have an advanced BMS already built in.  They do, but they're not that advanced anymore.  In fact you can actually buy a chip from TI that will do this for you.

Shorai is one of the largest lithium battery importers or distributors.  But they incorrectly advise people to use a normal charger.  You can get away with this as long as it is a modern type and has voltage sensing circuitry to prevent overcharging, but again without a BMS you will have cell imbalance that will lead to less output and earlier death.  Some manufactures include their own charger and tell you to charge the battery every once in a while with it.  All they're doing is having you attach a BMS and charging/discharging cells to re-balance the battery.  Problem is that even if one cell becomes overcharged even once then it will never be the same.  Same with discharging, after a certain level there is no bringing things back. 

The only true solution is to integrate the BMS directly into the battery itself.  Yes, this will add some cost but is cheaper than the chargers that some lithium battery manufacturers make you buy.  And the balancing chargers will not work when the battery is being charged/discharged by the bike.  A battery with an integrated BMS will always maintain the optimal cell levels at all times.  And because a properly maintained lithium battery will last longer than any lead acid or AGM battery the extra cost is paid for with a very long life.  In addition, because they have a very low self discharge rate they do not have to be trickled over the winter.  They are also about 70%-80% lighter which is great for racing apps.

The only manufacturers we have found that does this is EarthX lithium batteries from Colorado.  I've pasted a link below to their website.  We are picking up the entire line and will be offering them for sale very soon.  I've been impressed with them thus far and will be installing them on my own bikes from more testing.  If anyone has any questions regarding them I would be happy to help.

http://www.earthxmotorsports.com/index.php/page_id/2

Mike
www.power-barn.com

--
Wed Nite Garage:

Feb 1st = Extra Special Ronnie Montrose edition in the Southside.

Feb 8th = Beck and Dan Land Speed Record Nite in Wilmette

Feb 15th = ??? come on folks this Anarcho/Commune doesn't run itself

[peteE]

It looks like they are not selling these batteries yet.
Every model bike I searched came up empty.
No dealers listed.
No online store.
Site still under construction.
Batteries still under construction?
I am in the market and wonder ......$$$$$????
Pete

> >http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batte...
>
> > -MAx..
>
> > On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:01 AM, <TEAMGH...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> **

[Mike]

Hi Pete,
They are definitely being sold, we should have our first order in by the end
of next week. I do see their website is a little bare and provided the link
mainly for the about us info. They are a new company, probably not even 6
months old. However I talked with the owner Reg at the dealer show in Indy
last week and he is extremely knowledgeable and responsible for the battery
design being a Lithium battery engineer for A123 systems in a previous life.

I've been looking for Lithium batteries to offer for sale for a while now
and am picking up this line because they are the only ones with an
integrated BMS which is critical to the life and output of these batteries.

If you're interested then drop me a line and we'll figure out what your
application is. AS soon as we can get these published on our site then I'll
let everyone know.

Thanks!
Mike

--
Wed Nite Garage:

Feb 22nd = Brian, Piotr, and Peter's shop on Rockwell Feb 29th = Brady in
LogSq come on folks this Anarcho/Commune doesn't run itself