Work at home idea

[spamtrap1888]

People online are bitching and moaning about Marissa Mayer's demand
that yahoo telecommuters start physically showing up. One guy linked
to this news item. Unfortunately the developer was in the office all
day while the vpn log said he was in China.

http://thenextweb.com/shareables/2013/01/16/verizon-finds-developer-outsourced-his-work-to-china-so-he-could-surf-reddit-and-watch-cat-videos/

[Bruce Esquibel]

spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> People online are bitching and moaning about Marissa Mayer's demand
> that yahoo telecommuters start physically showing up. One guy linked
> to this news item. Unfortunately the developer was in the office all
> day while the vpn log said he was in China.

That is somewhat related to the yahoo story.

On this mornings news they had an update, the yahoo change in policy seems
to have come from the CEO looking at the network traffic logs.

Basically the people working from home had no measurable traffic.

Nothing in, nothing out equals no work.

They should of been down loading p0rn via the VPN, could of kept their bunny
slippers.

-bruce
b...@ripco.com

[smr]

That's still not the best way to measure this sort of thing. I assume they
have goals to achieve, and work to produce.

Is that work being produced or not?

Measuring the network traffic logs is not the best way to answer that
question, unless the employee's work objective is "generate network
traffic".

--
smr

[spamtrap1888]

On Mar 4, 6:39 am, smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 11:48:18 +0000 (UTC), Bruce Esquibel wrote:
> > spamtrap1888 <spamtrap1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> People online are bitching and moaning about Marissa Mayer's demand
> >> that yahoo telecommuters start physically showing up. One guy linked
> >> to this news item. Unfortunately the developer was in the office all
> >> day while the vpn log said he was in China.
>
> > That is somewhat related to the yahoo story.
>
> > On this mornings news they had an update, the yahoo change in policy seems
> > to have come from the CEO looking at the network traffic logs.
>
> > Basically the people working from home had no measurable traffic.
>
> > Nothing in, nothing out equals no work.
>
> > They should of been down loading p0rn via the VPN, could of kept their bunny
> > slippers.
>

> That's still not the best way to measure this sort of thing. I assume they
> have goals to achieve, and work to produce.
>
> Is that work being produced or not?
>
> Measuring the network traffic logs is not the best way to answer that
> question, unless the employee's work objective is "generate network
> traffic".

My guess is that many had been generating excuses instead of usable
work product, and yahoo had been amazingly tolerant with their lack of
production.

[smr]

I know a lot of current and ex-Yahoos and you need to replace "amazingly
tolerant" with "unbelievably incompetent".

Were I that CEO, I'd be firing every manager who couldn't provide to me
statistics on the work output of their employees. That's the only metric
that should matter; is the work assigned getting done?

If not, start swinging the axe. But bindly changing a policy that'll affect
a shitload of people negatively, some of whom have done fuckall to earn it,
is kind of lazy management.

--
smr

[Adam H. Kerman]

Bruce Esquibel <b...@ripco.com> wrote:

>That is somewhat related to the yahoo story.

>On this mornings news they had an update, the yahoo change in policy seems
>to have come from the CEO looking at the network traffic logs.

>Basically the people working from home had no measurable traffic.

>Nothing in, nothing out equals no work.

>They should of been down loading p0rn via the VPN, could of kept their bunny
>slippers.

They were using IBM Selectrics to type their reports.

[Cydrome Leader]

they should just fire all yahoo employees, at home or at the office.

[Mark Anderson]

In article pres...@MUNGEpanix.com says...

> > Nothing in, nothing out equals no work.
> >
> > They should of been down loading p0rn via the VPN, could of kept their bunny
> > slippers.
>
> they should just fire all yahoo employees, at home or at the office.

I ping yahoo.com (old habit) whenever I need to see if I'm connected
with dns working. Lately my pings to yahoo are all over the place
averaging around 330ms when it's usually a solid something between 50-70
ms. Google.com is a solid 20ms ping. I wonder if there's some kind of
protest going on as this is the second day in a row I have noticed this
but it could have been doing this for awhile now.

[Cydrome Leader]

I have no respect for yahoo at all, as they completely suck ass, but when
it comes to shitty ping times between you and yahoo, you need to examine
wtf you're doing first.

maybe you need to fire up another "more reliable" LAN?

[tert in seattle]

kenji wrote:
> In article <puqdn54a7dp2$.elyjftw1...@40tude.net>,

> smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 07:00:46 -0800 (PST), spamtrap1888 wrote:
>>

> "metric"
>
> Tf?
>
> who talks like that?
>
> I know!
>
> a cunt


it's how realpro's

you'd know that if you were a real pro

2c

[Mark Anderson]

In article pres...@MUNGEpanix.com says...

> I have no respect for yahoo at all, as they completely suck ass, but when
> it comes to shitty ping times between you and yahoo, you need to examine
> wtf you're doing first.

Uhm. It's ping yahoo.com stupid. Not much to the ping command. I'm
just reporting an observation of something I noticed abnormal from my
end. I'm not about to traceroute or do any debug BS because frankly I
don't give a shit. I'll simply ping google instead to verify
connectivity. Ping 8.8.8.8 rolls off the keyboard pretty quickly as
well and that too is solid so it ain't my network.

[Cydrome Leader]

Mark Anderson <m...@nospambradnylion.com> wrote:
> In article pres...@MUNGEpanix.com says...
>> I have no respect for yahoo at all, as they completely suck ass, but when
>> it comes to shitty ping times between you and yahoo, you need to examine
>> wtf you're doing first.
>
> Uhm. It's ping yahoo.com stupid. Not much to the ping command. I'm
> just reporting an observation of something I noticed abnormal from my
> end. I'm not about to traceroute or do any debug BS because frankly I
> don't give a shit. I'll simply ping google instead to verify

stop crying you idiot.

> connectivity. Ping 8.8.8.8 rolls off the keyboard pretty quickly as
> well and that too is solid so it ain't my network.

you, your network and your maggots all suck.

[Ts of Og]

On Mar 4, 11:47 am, Cydrome Leader <prese...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
> Bruce Esquibel <b...@ripco.com> wrote:

Yahoo was useful when they cataloged web pages in a directory format.
Now if I look at some yahoo site, I try to leave ASAP because of all
the annoying ads.

[Geoff Gass]

smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 07:00:46 -0800 (PST), spamtrap1888 wrote:
>

smacks of micromanagement as well.

shit, when I'm coding something newish, I could go a couple of hours before
I have something ready to test (and would then be hitting a database).
During that time, I'm getting plenty done, but a VPN log would only show
background stuff like email.

[spamtrap1888]

I suspect they will make exceptions for those who are truly productive
-- they and their managers have several months in which to make a
case.

My first job out of college had a "layoff" the third year I was there.
Amazingly, only the deadwood was cut: slackers, bad attitudes, liquid
lunchers, etc. It was easier to prune them all at once, and face
saving as well.

[smr]

It seems like it was a real problem, and the folks who actually do show up
and work there are thrilled, so mission-accomplished, but someone really
should've twinged to this problem long before it got to this.

That said, yeah, I'm in your boat. I don't even fire up the VPN some days
I'm at home because most of what I need is accessible off of it (not being
a coder, there's no repositories I need to get to). That said, I can only
work from home about one day a week, I've discovered. I get stir crazy and
am more productive in-office; I generally use that one day a week for
documentation and the like.

--
smr

[Geoff Gass]

Which gets back to your earlier point about incompetent management. if
there are people sitting home fucking off all day, their managers should be
catching that. But then, if the managers are sitting home fucking off all
day and their managers aren't catching it because they're sitting home
fucking off all day...

> That said, yeah, I'm in your boat. I don't even fire up the VPN some days
> I'm at home because most of what I need is accessible off of it (not being
> a coder, there's no repositories I need to get to). That said, I can only
> work from home about one day a week, I've discovered. I get stir crazy and
> am more productive in-office; I generally use that one day a week for
> documentation and the like.

Given my lack of attention span, in the abstract, it shouldn't work for me,
but it does, so I don't argue with it

[Geoff Gass]

spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:

But then why company-wide edict? Leave it up to the managers to decide.
Seems like they're solving a symptom, not the actual problem.

[smr]

It truly seemed systemic and going for the big kill was her best option.
She can find out who's on-board with this and (by abstraction) her entire
plan. I wouldn't be surprised to see a limited ability to work remotely
come back in like six months or so.

--
smr

[Cydrome Leader]

I don't like the idea of working at home, plus I don't get too much done
unless there's some crisis.

Otherwise I'll get up to get some water, and forget to come back to the
computer, or go out for lunch, and turn that into errands time.

anybody that claims they do otherwise is just a liar, and should be cut
for that reason alone.

[smr]

So because you suffer from an abject lack of self-control or decency,
nobody should be able to do this.

Okay.

--
smr

[tert in seattle]

spamtrap1888 wrote:

this was in 1910?

[core]

It sounds like there's a significant management problem here, otherwise they
wouldn't have a productivity problem. Leaving it up to the managers to decide
wouldn't likely solve much.

[spamtrap1888]

You would have still been sucking your thumb for comfort.

[MacOwner]

In article <1w4f67ri6rd86.e...@40tude.net>,

chart the "metric"

[Cydrome Leader]

I'm not going to strain myself "working" at home harder than anybody else
does.

direct deposit is cute, but having to pick up a check in person is how it
should work. If you can't get to work, fuck you and your check sits locked
in some HR drone office.

[Bruce Esquibel]

core <core-...@spamless.spook.homeip.net> wrote:

> It sounds like there's a significant management problem here, otherwise they
> wouldn't have a productivity problem. Leaving it up to the managers to decide
> wouldn't likely solve much.

I guess it's not just Yahoo.

There was an update to the story again yesterday, Best Buy following Yahoo
also revoked all the work at home shit.

I hope it was the managers at Best Buy. If they let the sales people work
from home, boy were they fucking idiots.

-bruce
b...@ripco.com

[smr]

In article <kh9dlc$jri$3...@reader2.panix.com>, pres...@MUNGEpanix.com
says...

> I'm not going to strain myself "working" at home harder than anybody else
> does.

Do you not like what you do for a living or something? If you see work as
a strain, or as something where working harder than somebody else is
"losing", you have an issue with what you've chosen to do with your life.

> direct deposit is cute, but having to pick up a check in person is how it
> should work. If you can't get to work, fuck you and your check sits locked
> in some HR drone office.

I like this idea just for the petty cruelty of it.

--
smr

[Cydrome Leader]

smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
> In article <kh9dlc$jri$3...@reader2.panix.com>, pres...@MUNGEpanix.com
> says...
>
>> I'm not going to strain myself "working" at home harder than anybody else
>> does.
>
> Do you not like what you do for a living or something? If you see work as
> a strain, or as something where working harder than somebody else is
> "losing", you have an issue with what you've chosen to do with your life.

If I'm going to pull the bullshit "WFH today" I'm going to work as hard as
anybody else that pulls that card out of their ass.

Anybody that does that is just fucking off. My favorite is "waiting for
UPS".

Ok in theory your doorbell rings, and you're afk for about 5 minutes, but
that's not how it works in real life.

I like what I do, but I don't like the idea of the people that actually
show up to work having to fill in for the slackers sitting at home
watching TV all day that send a token email every now and then so their
VPN connection doesn't disconnect.

>> direct deposit is cute, but having to pick up a check in person is how it
>> should work. If you can't get to work, fuck you and your check sits locked
>> in some HR drone office.
>
> I like this idea just for the petty cruelty of it.

It's hardly cruel to make somebody gather the strength to show up for a
paycheck.

I actually had a boss that they had a hard time firing because they
couldn't find him at work for the firing.

He was in some other state when they actually called him.

they shit would never happen if he had to show up to get payed.

[smr]

In article <khamks$8l8$1...@reader2.panix.com>, pres...@MUNGEpanix.com
says...

So, again, you lack the self-discipline to work from home and actually be
productive. Fine, drag your sweaty ass into the office every day.

It's certainly a problem for a lot of people. It's certainly _not_ a
problem for a lot of other people. Why force the latter into the confines
needed to force production out of the shitty, lazy former?

--
smr

[Adam H. Kerman]

smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
>pres...@MUNGEpanix.com says...

>>I'm not going to strain myself "working" at home harder than anybody else
>>does.

>Do you not like what you do for a living or something? If you see work as
>a strain, or as something where working harder than somebody else is
>"losing", you have an issue with what you've chosen to do with your life.

What are you, a drug dealer sampling your own product?

No job, no matter how life affirming and generally gratifying, comes
imune from absolute shit tasks.

[smr]

In article <khaobj$fua$3...@news.albasani.net>, a...@chinet.com says...

I like getting paid. I like producing what I do to get paid. There's
really no restrictions on where I can perform those tasks. I can do 90+%
of this job from anywhere that has an internet connection. The other
10ish%, is what I come into the office for (I generally only work 1 day a
week from home on average, but I really _like_ that one day a week). Being
able to occasionally do them from home allows for many other benefits that
improve my quality of life. My management taking that away from me would
be doing so caprciously and would result in nothing more than an loss to
my quality of life for no increase in production.

So why do it?

I manage folks who have telecommuting options. I've had the occasional
staffer who's productivity dropped when remote; that person first lost his
rights to do so, and eventually lost his job.

It's not hard for managers to track this shit if they're any good at their
job. I dislike, but understand, why Yahoo! went with the nuclear option;
they had been letting way too many people abuse that system for way too
long to do a targeted cull, it sounds like.

--
smr

[spamtrap1888]

On Mar 7, 8:13 am, barbie gee <boo...@nosespam.com> wrote:

> that was my thought, too.  Sometime before the end of the days of "at
> will" employment?  When did we start imposing lots of seniority rules on
> layoffs?
>
> This brings a question to mind; during a period of
> layoff, can an employee file a Wrongful Termination greivance?  Or are
> layoffs immune from that kind of thing?

Companies are very sensitive to the age,experience, and salary mix of
their employees, because they don't want to be sued for letting all
the old people go.

"At will" or not, firing someone can result in a law suit.

[Adam H. Kerman]

smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
>a...@chinet.com says...
>>smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
>>>pres...@MUNGEpanix.com says...

>>>>I'm not going to strain myself "working" at home harder than anybody else
>>>>does.

>>>Do you not like what you do for a living or something? If you see work as
>>>a strain, or as something where working harder than somebody else is
>>>"losing", you have an issue with what you've chosen to do with your life.

>>What are you, a drug dealer sampling your own product?

>>No job, no matter how life affirming and generally gratifying, comes
>>imune from absolute shit tasks.

>I like getting paid. I like producing what I do to get paid. . . .

What does that have to do with anything? Even a lowly store clerk or
line worker can find some job satisfaction some of the time by setting a
goal to complete a task, then completing it, or finding an error, then
correcting it, or just working for hours at a time without the pointy-haired
boss interfering.

No job gives perfect satisfaction all the time, so don't attack C.L. for
having an issue with his job.

>I manage folks who have telecommuting options. I've had the occasional
>staffer who's productivity dropped when remote; that person first lost his
>rights to do so, and eventually lost his job.

Fine. Glad you didn't make him artificially inflate VPN statistics by
surfing for pr0n.

>It's not hard for managers to track this shit if they're any good at their
>job. I dislike, but understand, why Yahoo! went with the nuclear option;
>they had been letting way too many people abuse that system for way too
>long to do a targeted cull, it sounds like.

At no point did I disagree with any of this.

[Cydrome Leader]

failing companies tend to grasp at straws, but always too late.

new dress codes are always a good sign your last paycheck may be just
that.

[smr]

In article <khb1gp$3gt$4...@news.albasani.net>, a...@chinet.com says...

> What does that have to do with anything? Even a lowly store clerk or
> line worker can find some job satisfaction some of the time by setting a
> goal to complete a task, then completing it, or finding an error, then
> correcting it, or just working for hours at a time without the pointy-haired
> boss interfering.
>
> No job gives perfect satisfaction all the time, so don't attack C.L. for
> having an issue with his job.

You introduced the nonsense point about "job satisfaction", which neither
I nor CL did. He said that, if he's working at home, he's going to slack
off, period, in part because he "knows" others are slacking off. I replied
that I like what I do, with the unwritten subtext being "I don't care if
others are slacking off as what they do or don't do doesn't drive my own
work ethic". I don't look at working from as a chance to not work, and
wonder why he sees it that way.

I'm sorry this went over your fucking head, as I'm sure pretty much
everything involving holding a steady job does.

> Fine. Glad you didn't make him artificially inflate VPN statistics by
> surfing for pr0n.

Okay, cool, introduce another irrelevant stupid point, but okay. Neither
the Yahoo! plan nor anything else we've been discussing involves this.

> >It's not hard for managers to track this shit if they're any good at their
> >job. I dislike, but understand, why Yahoo! went with the nuclear option;
> >they had been letting way too many people abuse that system for way too
> >long to do a targeted cull, it sounds like.
>
> At no point did I disagree with any of this.

Then why comment on it? Shut up.

--
smr

[Adam H. Kerman]

smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
>a...@chinet.com says...

>>What does that have to do with anything? Even a lowly store clerk or
>>line worker can find some job satisfaction some of the time by setting a
>>goal to complete a task, then completing it, or finding an error, then
>>correcting it, or just working for hours at a time without the pointy-haired
>>boss interfering.

>>No job gives perfect satisfaction all the time, so don't attack C.L. for
>>having an issue with his job.

>You introduced the nonsense point about "job satisfaction", which neither
>I nor CL did. He said that, if he's working at home, he's going to slack
>off, period, in part because he "knows" others are slacking off. I replied
>that I like what I do, with the unwritten subtext being "I don't care if
>others are slacking off as what they do or don't do doesn't drive my own
>work ethic". I don't look at working from as a chance to not work, and
>wonder why he sees it that way.

>I'm sorry this went over your fucking head, as I'm sure pretty much
>everything involving holding a steady job does.

Don't lie to me, shawn, and stop lying to yourself. You went into
sanctimonious prig mode, accusing C.L. of not liking his job. I
called you on it.

The rest deleted just 'cuz you're being your usual asshole self.

[smr]

In article <khb517$cd2$1...@news.albasani.net>, a...@chinet.com says...

He's basically stating he can't be allowed to work unsupervised. That's
both lazy and dishonest in my book. If one truly liked their job, I doubt
they'd need to be watched over and forced to do it. So, sure, consider job
satisfaction a part of it. There's parts of my job I enjoy more than
others, but they all need to get done.

--
smr

[Cydrome Leader]

That's not what I said.

I said most people who "work" at home are doing nothing. So on the times I
"work" from home I will take gentle "work" day as well.

fair is fair.

they should ban "working" from home all together if you ask me. If you're
going to take a day off, great, just don't pretend you're around and only
available 5% of the day.

[spamtrap1888]

On Mar 7, 4:15 pm, Cydrome Leader <prese...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
> smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:

> > In article <khb517$cd...@news.albasani.net>, a...@chinet.com says...

Working at home feels more like a day off -- or more to the point, a
sick day -- than it does a day at work. If I have, say, a report to
grind out and want to avoid distractions, I'll go to a library, where
I can spread my shit over a table, in a corner so no one will be
trying to read upside down.

[Geoff Gass]

it wouldn't have been sales floor people, it'd be backoffice stuff. IT
people, marketing, HR, etc.

[Geoff Gass]

barbie gee <boo...@nosespam.com> wrote:
> that was my thought, too. Sometime before the end of the days of "at
> will" employment? When did we start imposing lots of seniority rules on
> layoffs?

seniority is generally only applicable to union jobs

> This brings a question to mind; during a period of
> layoff, can an employee file a Wrongful Termination greivance? Or are
> layoffs immune from that kind of thing?

not immune by any means, if the corp isn't careful and is laying off all the
old people or all the women, they can certainly get in trouble

[MacOwner]

In article <alpine.DEB.2.02.1...@sghcrg.sghcrg.pbz>,
barbie gee <boo...@nosespam.com> wrote:

> OTOH, some jobs have so many impossible-to-manage distractions and
> interupptions that a day to work at home, uninterrupted, can be a godsend.
> I worked in one place where they wouldn't allow me to close my office door
> for an hour each day where I couldn't be interrupted ("quiet time"), so I
> was always stressed and having my attentions diverted left and right. I
> left soon after that, because the idea that my time was interruptable and
> I was supposed to always be on-call, seemed really unfair and
> counter-productive.

was that in 1977?

[spamtrap1888]

On Mar 8, 6:54 am, MacOwner <macow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <alpine.DEB.2.02.1303072244360.28...@sghcrg.sghcrg.pbz>,

>  barbie gee <boo...@nosespam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 8 Mar 2013, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>
> > > smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:

> > >> In article <khb517$cd...@news.albasani.net>, a...@chinet.com says...

I miss the 70s. Every Friday we would have lunch at some tavern or
other. Then we would pray that no crisis would erupt Friday afternoon.
Or at Portillo's. Portillo's was crazy popular back then, so you'd
have to get there no later than 11:30.

[sticks]

On 3/8/2013 10:59 AM, spamtrap1888 wrote:

> I miss the 70s. Every Friday we would have lunch at some tavern or
> other. Then we would pray that no crisis would erupt Friday afternoon.
> Or at Portillo's. Portillo's was crazy popular back then, so you'd
> have to get there no later than 11:30.

Loved those big frosted schooners of beer!

[Cydrome Leader]

Nothing quite like IT calls to or from people that sound like they're in a
kitchen, with kids in the background.

[Cydrome Leader]

barbie gee <boo...@nosespam.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2013, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>

> OTOH, some jobs have so many impossible-to-manage distractions and
> interupptions that a day to work at home, uninterrupted, can be a godsend.
> I worked in one place where they wouldn't allow me to close my office door
> for an hour each day where I couldn't be interrupted ("quiet time"), so I
> was always stressed and having my attentions diverted left and right. I
> left soon after that, because the idea that my time was interruptable and
> I was supposed to always be on-call, seemed really unfair and
> counter-productive.

that's all fine.

you didn't create a shitty work envirnment, and it's not your job to fix
it or let work spill over into your home because of some stupid door
policy. If your employer wants nothing done, that's their call.

[smr]

On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 00:15:49 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote:

> That's not what I said.
>
> I said most people who "work" at home are doing nothing. So on the times I
> "work" from home I will take gentle "work" day as well.
>
> fair is fair.

Fair is doing the fuckin' job you're paid to do regardless of what any
other co-worker is doing.

> they should ban "working" from home all together if you ask me. If you're
> going to take a day off, great, just don't pretend you're around and only
> available 5% of the day.

Well, you're a small-minded sperglord, so this opinion isn't unexpected
from you.

--
smr

[Cydrome Leader]

smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Mar 2013 00:15:49 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote:
>
>> That's not what I said.
>>
>> I said most people who "work" at home are doing nothing. So on the times I
>> "work" from home I will take gentle "work" day as well.
>>
>> fair is fair.
>
> Fair is doing the fuckin' job you're paid to do regardless of what any
> other co-worker is doing.

And if you're payed to sit at home fucking off, by all means, I'm going to
"WFH" too.

[smr]

You do your thing, I'll do mine.

--
smr

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>People online are bitching and moaning about Marissa Mayer's demand
>that yahoo telecommuters start physically showing up. One guy linked
>to this news item. Unfortunately the developer was in the office all
>day while the vpn log said he was in China.

>http://thenextweb.com/shareables/2013/01/16/verizon-finds-developer-outsourced-his-work-to-china-so-he-could-surf-reddit-and-watch-cat-videos/

This guy has no imagination...

"...How did he get around the security requirements? He physically FedExed his RSA token to China. ..."

Get a webcam stupid! Log into the webcam to get the current PIN.

He must have fedx'd it a lot because I don't think I've ever had a token for
more than a year or 2, they always rotate them. At least the newer tokens
are smaller than the old ones.

--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell)

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Geoff Gass <g...@tanzenmb.com> wrote:
>smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:

>> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 07:00:46 -0800 (PST), spamtrap1888 wrote:
>>
>>> On Mar 4, 6:39?am, smr <m...@shawnritchie.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 4 Mar 2013 11:48:18 +0000 (UTC), Bruce Esquibel wrote:

>>>>> spamtrap1888 <spamtrap1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> People online are bitching and moaning about Marissa Mayer's demand
>>>>>> that yahoo telecommuters start physically showing up. One guy linked
>>>>>> to this news item. Unfortunately the developer was in the office all
>>>>>> day while the vpn log said he was in China.
>>>>

Gee, a couple hours eh? Doesn't sound like you work on anything complicated.
Do you use an actual language or something Microsoftish with point and click?

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Even the crappier tasks can be turned into fun trying to figure out the
puzzles that makes something work.

[smr]

Look at this passive-aggressive shitheaded cocksucker.

--
smr

[Cydrome Leader]

listen, nelson is a fucking heavyweight in IT. When serious businesses
need to transfer files, they go to him to setup secure FTP.

[smr]

I'm hoping that Scandanavian predeliction towards suicide kicks in any day
now.

--
smr

[Adam H. Kerman]

Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

>listen, nelson is a fucking heavyweight in IT. When serious businesses
>need to transfer files, they go to him to setup secure FTP.

Does that mean you type your password with one had and attempt to shield
the keyboard with your free forearm?

[smr]

That method would be more secure than whatever nonsense 1992 file transfer
bullshit Nelson does.

--
smr

[Geoff Gass]

no, it's because I'm not a fucking retard like you who would take 2 fucking
days to design something and then use ARCNET or some bullshit to do it.

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

ARCNet was a thing of beauty in it's day, but that day has long passed.

Bus Ethernet wasn't what you wanted to control a factory because one
streaming NIC took away the LAN to everything. With a token, you have
predictable response time, but these days a switch suffices.

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

So your projects only take 'a couple of hours' too?

Do you setup spreadsheets for the spreadsheet impaired?

[Cydrome Leader]

Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

he's probably advanced to copy and paste from a file called passwords.txt

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:

Not sure what '... with one had and attempt...' means in English.

Do real businesses use passwords for something more than checking email anymore?

[Cydrome Leader]

he seems more like a parallel port zip disk kind of guy.

[Cydrome Leader]

Chicago Paddling-Fishing <j...@ripco.com> wrote:
> Adam H. Kerman <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>>Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>
>>>listen, nelson is a fucking heavyweight in IT. When serious businesses
>>>need to transfer files, they go to him to setup secure FTP.
>
>>Does that mean you type your password with one had and attempt to shield
>>the keyboard with your free forearm?
>
> Not sure what '... with one had and attempt...' means in English.
>
> Do real businesses use passwords for something more than checking email anymore?

yeah, everybody types their passwords into Outlook.

[Cydrome Leader]

I really doubt he works for you.

[smr]

In article <ki69kh$1td$5...@remote5bge0.ripco.com>, j...@ripco.com says...

You have a severe reading comprehension disability. Get help.

--
smr

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Wow, you think 2 days for design of a system is long????

I've been on enabling calls that have lasted more than 60 hours where each
group in whatever country they are located brings their part of the system
up into the app mesh and test before control is handed to the next group.

I thought you worked for Chase at least at some point... is Cash Station
still on LL3 in the old 1st National Bank Building (I was there in the 80s)
Do you think CashStation was designed in 2 days? Do you work in IT or
some other field (I may have you confused with someone else?)

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Not everyone uses outlook, especially when accessing things remotely.

[Cydrome Leader]

are you proud of the fact that you and your worthless hack buddies around
the world completely suck at their jobs and have 60 hour conference calls?

You have to be some real losers even be in that boat.

> I thought you worked for Chase at least at some point... is Cash Station
> still on LL3 in the old 1st National Bank Building (I was there in the 80s)
> Do you think CashStation was designed in 2 days? Do you work in IT or
> some other field (I may have you confused with someone else?)

yeah, you are quite confused about many things.

[Geoff Gass]

who said I was designing a system, you fucking moron.

> I've been on enabling calls that have lasted more than 60 hours where each
> group in whatever country they are located brings their part of the system
> up into the app mesh and test before control is handed to the next group.

ooh, big group design, often the cause of big group failures, you fucking
moron.

> I thought you worked for Chase at least at some point... is Cash Station
> still on LL3 in the old 1st National Bank Building (I was there in the 80s)
> Do you think CashStation was designed in 2 days? Do you work in IT or
> some other field (I may have you confused with someone else?)

I never worked on financial systems, you fucking moron.

[Ts of Og]

Memo to Global Resources, If I have a credit balance in my account I'm
not delinquent in paying my bill and don't appreciate the threatening
warning messages on my bills.

[smr]

The things you are proud of (this ^^^^^, being a Scoutabuser, having way
too many kids, being Swedish [it's European for Pussies!]...) just boggle
the mind. I can't imagine what kind of fucked-up club foot Mrs. Nelson must
have if she had to settle for a seething sack of untalented shit like
yourself.

--
smr

[Michele]

She probably wears the pants and knew a sucker when she saw one.

[spamtrap1888]

I missed this the first time. Would he still be installing archie and
gopher?

Remember when you would finger someone, only to learn they had No Plan?

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Do you work in software development? How many days do you think a developer
in a company that maintains any sort of ISO9xxx, CMMI or other rating normally
carried by a company spends on design or documentation before they write a
line of code for something 'newish'? It may be weeks or months.

Do you think a developer spends more hours developing code 'hitting a database'
or do you think they spend about 20-40% of their time developing code and the
rest of the time designing, documenting, writing test cases and meeting with
customers or QA to assist them in developing test cases for larger projects
and filling project notebooks?

Unless he is a junior level person (and knowing where Geoff went to school I
seriously doubt hes a junior anything at whatever he does) being led around
by someone else, you are going to spend less than half your time actually
developing anything, so if you're working from home and don't hit a database
for weeks or more, it's probably because your working with the DBAs to
determine schemas, where your db is going to reside and how you're going to
access it, or working with the network team to determine addressing
interactions because encrypted transactions can't send port or IP addresses
within payloads behind a NAT firewall because the firewall has to NAT it
going back.

[sticks]

On 4/4/2013 5:04 AM, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:

> Unless he is a junior level person (and knowing where Geoff went to school I
> seriously doubt hes a junior anything at whatever he does) being led around
> by someone else, you are going to spend less than half your time actually
> developing anything, so if you're working from home and don't hit a database
> for weeks or more, it's probably because your working with the DBAs to
> determine schemas, where your db is going to reside and how you're going to
> access it, or working with the network team to determine addressing
> interactions because encrypted transactions can't send port or IP addresses
> within payloads behind a NAT firewall because the firewall has to NAT it
> going back.

At first I thought paddlefucks dot key was borked, but then he goes and
plonks one in at the end. Mebbe a cut & paste?

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

I never owned a zip drive. I did own a image scanning whiteboard that scanned
via the parallel port though if that counts? Now I have it on a USB converter.

I did have internal tape drives though. My current machine has 2 x 120gbSSD's
and 2x3tb mirrored so I don't worry about failure as much.

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Its not an conference call, it's enabling. Data is put thru a new major system
one step at a time and validated because the system is deemed too large and
encompasses too many groups to be tested end to end initially.

Once it's all up then end to end acceptance testing begins.

>> I thought you worked for Chase at least at some point... is Cash Station
>> still on LL3 in the old 1st National Bank Building (I was there in the 80s)
>> Do you think CashStation was designed in 2 days? Do you work in IT or
>> some other field (I may have you confused with someone else?)

>yeah, you are quite confused about many things.

If you followed the thread you'd see I was replying to Geoff, not you;

Here it is again for the thread impaired;

Cydrome Leader <pres...@mungepanix.com> wrote:
>Chicago Paddling-Fishing <j...@ripco.com> wrote:
>> Geoff Gass <g...@tanzenmb.com> wrote:

So, my reply was to Geoff's note, I believe Huey indicated that he worked for
Chase at some point in the not too distant past.

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

spamtrap1888 <spamtr...@gmail.com> wrote:

No (although I did use gopher for a while in the 90's) before the web took
off.

>Remember when you would finger someone, only to learn they had No Plan?

My favorite message was always;
:!cat food
cat: cannot open food

You can almost imagine the cat clawing at the container...

[Mark Anderson]

In article j...@ripco.com says...

> I did have internal tape drives though. My current machine has 2 x 120gbSSD's
> and 2x3tb mirrored so I don't worry about failure as much.

Another sign of your inexperience.

From:

http://www.zdnet.com/how-ssd-power-faults-scramble-your-data-7000011979/

...
"This paper reminds us that SSDs are very new technology, with
idiosyncrasies still being engineered around. We're still five years
away from the average enterprise SSD being as reliable as the average
enterprise hard drive is today."

[Bruce Esquibel]

Mark Anderson <m...@nospambradnylion.com> wrote:

> In article j...@ripco.com says...
>> I did have internal tape drives though. My current machine has 2 x 120gbSSD's
>> and 2x3tb mirrored so I don't worry about failure as much.

> Another sign of your inexperience.

And another sign of your stupidity.

That comment in the article and what John said is totally out of context.

I can guarantee with the exception of myself and possibly CL, there is no
one reading this post that is using an "enterprise class" hard drive in
their home computer setups.

Being the way you people piss and moan about how expensive Macs are, I
really doubt if you are dropping .75 to $1 a GB for your hard drives. And
no, just because you dropped the extra $20 for a "caviar black" doesn't
count either.

Just because the ssd's aren't ready for enterprise use doesn't exclude them
from being used in the home today. Yeah they are still in the early stages
but it's pretty obvious within the next decade the old "spinning platter"
type of hd will go the way of crt monitors and analog cell phones.

The only problem with the ssd's today is the size vs. price issue like with
any other newer technology, but I doubt if it'll be very much longer where
they'll get into the 1TB range.

Those things are fucking great. Only warning I'd give to using them is just
get a good backup strategy including a full restore scenario which you
should be doing now anyway.

But I think you'll end up replacing it with a higher capacity one before it
becomes "worn out".

-bruce
b...@ripco.com

[Mark Anderson]

In article b...@ripco.com says...

> I can guarantee with the exception of myself and possibly CL, there is no
> one reading this post that is using an "enterprise class" hard drive in
> their home computer setups.

He's doing enterprise level availability with his dual mirror set up
which in and of itself doesn't make sense. There isn't any purpose to
him having that level of mirroring other than he can and wants to brag
about it at cocktail parties.

> Being the way you people piss and moan about how expensive Macs are, I
> really doubt if you are dropping .75 to $1 a GB for your hard drives. And
> no, just because you dropped the extra $20 for a "caviar black" doesn't
> count either.

I don't spend money on drives and view them all as potential goners at
any moment in time which is why I do automatic syncs.

> Those things are fucking great. Only warning I'd give to using them
> is just get a good backup strategy including a full restore scenario
> which you should be doing now anyway.

RAID is not a backup system.

[Adam H. Kerman]

1 terabyte for home use? How bloated with Microsoft Office files be in future?

[sticks]

On 4/7/2013 11:17 AM, Mark Anderson wrote:
> In article b...@ripco.com says...
>> I can guarantee with the exception of myself and possibly CL, there is no
>> one reading this post that is using an "enterprise class" hard drive in
>> their home computer setups.
>
> He's doing enterprise level availability with his dual mirror set up
> which in and of itself doesn't make sense. There isn't any purpose to
> him having that level of mirroring other than he can and wants to brag
> about it at cocktail parties.
>

I dunno, it sure makes sense to me. You put the operating system on the
first SSD and make an image of it on the second. All your working files
go on one of the big drives, using the other to back them up. I do
something similar, just not with SSD's.

[Mark Anderson]

In article wolve...@charter.net says...

> > He's doing enterprise level availability with his dual mirror set up
> > which in and of itself doesn't make sense. There isn't any purpose to
> > him having that level of mirroring other than he can and wants to brag
> > about it at cocktail parties.
> >
>
> I dunno, it sure makes sense to me. You put the operating system on the
> first SSD and make an image of it on the second. All your working files
> go on one of the big drives, using the other to back them up. I do
> something similar, just not with SSD's.

That is how you do it. Have the secondary SSD be cold standby so when
one craps out the second can come online with little interruption. Also
if a power glitch occurs from some bad outage/PSU (assuming Nelson
doesn't have redundant power supplies) then having a cold standby means
both SSDs won't fail at the same time. Nelson implied some kind of RAID
setup with a hot SSD standby which I wouldn't recommend unless there is
no other way. IMHO, the complexity of SSDs should require them to be
mostly read only devices because every time you write to them they
deteriorate.

[Michele]

On 4/8/2013 10:09 AM, kenji wrote:
> In article <kjsb07$b1t$5...@news.albasani.net>,

> "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
>

> one standard definition 45 minute episode of a TV show is about 650MB
>


Less than that if the encoder used MP4.

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

I know, I've read much about the failures (same as the WD green drives).

That's why I have them in a mirror or RAID 1 configuration.

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Well, when you stop and think about it, SSD's are to a degree flash drives and
there are x number of writes before you start to hit failures. I have my swap
space allocated to the spinning drives, because that'll get the most traffic
and I don't want the SSD's to be constantly updating their directory info.
The SSD's are mainly just the home to Win7.

It's a home machine, although for some of the transaction processing machines
at work we are now going to arrays of 12 to 16 SSD's for testing, but they
are very expensive drives.

Course, these are systems that tend to require a little bit of design to get
the most out of them (and I know CL and a few others here prefer systems that
can be implemented in a a day so one can 'hit a database' in just a few hours.

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

Mark Anderson <m...@nospambradnylion.com> wrote:
>In article b...@ripco.com says...
>> I can guarantee with the exception of myself and possibly CL, there is no
>> one reading this post that is using an "enterprise class" hard drive in
>> their home computer setups.

>He's doing enterprise level availability with his dual mirror set up
>which in and of itself doesn't make sense. There isn't any purpose to
>him having that level of mirroring other than he can and wants to brag
>about it at cocktail parties.

Are you an idiot in real life too or just on USENet?

The point of mirroring is to simply avoid immediate data loss. We have school
papers, pictures of our kids that we dump to the machines all the time (I'm
also adding a small NAS so the pictures can be accessed by other machines so
my kids don't always have to use my machine to email pics from my camera to
themselves.

A buddy of mine called me over once because it was near the end of the semester
and his daughter had lost her Masters Thesis due to a virus. Took hours to find
it and there is nothing like working on a junky laptop with a mom, dad and kid
staring over your shoulder. They were elated to get it back (after a while I
was starting to think there was no paper and I was being scapegoated but it
was there, just saved as a rtf file so it wasn't what I was looking for).

>> Being the way you people piss and moan about how expensive Macs are, I
>> really doubt if you are dropping .75 to $1 a GB for your hard drives. And
>> no, just because you dropped the extra $20 for a "caviar black" doesn't
>> count either.

>I don't spend money on drives and view them all as potential goners at
>any moment in time which is why I do automatic syncs.

Every drive has the potental for failure and the more you use the more often
they'll fail. Take MTBF and divide by the number of drives you have to
determine the number of spares you need on hand.

>> Those things are fucking great. Only warning I'd give to using them
>> is just get a good backup strategy including a full restore scenario
>> which you should be doing now anyway.

>RAID is not a backup system.

RAID allows you to recover from the backup drive, so long as you don't suffer
multiple failures. I don't have a tape robot at home, so RAID suppliments the
otherwise pressing need for nightly backups.

We do have tape robots at work that do backups in addition to our RAID arrays,
but at home I just backup things selectively to an external USB drive once in
a while when I think about it.

The NAS should suppliment that and I think it'll come with software to do
nightly incrementals, assuming I have enough space on it.

[Chicago Paddling-Fishing]

The SSD's aren't that fragile. Even back in the late 80's we were using SSD
floppy devices as boot devices for imbeded systems at work. You don't want
to write a lot to them, but you can write to them.

I use UPS's at home to avoid power surges, although occasionally a power supply
will fail (in fact, last year the old primary machine's power supply died,
which was what sent me toward the 3930k in the first place).