Buffet - Ian Bicking - Future of CP
Eugene Van den Bulke
In CherryPy Essentials p150 Sylvain mentions that Buffet should be
ported to CP 3.0 soon ... I can't see anything about it on
http://projects.dowski.com/view/buffet. Is it still on the agenda? I
realize the question is a bit OT for this list but there is more to it
;)
I am not sure whether you have read Ian Bicking latest blog post
http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/21/the-shrinking-python-web-framework-world/.
I am "saddened" not to see CP in there in some ways, but on the other
hand the reason why I chose to learn CP is that I couldn't get my head
around the "1st tier" web frameworks even if I really like the way
Pylons does thing. Which got me thinking about CP "product
positioning"!
My amateur experience is that CP is a fantastic tool to get things
done, not in a "I am developing the next big web 2.0 thing" but more
in a "it doesn't have to be so convoluted" kind of way (which
certainly comes from my own limitations). Playing with CP helps me
understand why some need Django, Pylons, TurboGears, Zope though :P
Has CP lost the "web framework war"? If so, should it reposition
itself as an easier more straightforward alternative to the big 4 and
find a place on the map of choices? What is your take on CP's future?
Please bear in mind that I am not a professional web developer, that I
love how CP empowers me in developing my pet projects in which I tend
to combine CP, Mako and Storm, I would just like to hear/read expert
opinion on this.
Thanks,
EuGeNe -- http://www.3kwa.com
Sylvain Hellegouarch
Eugene Van den Bulke a écrit :
> Hi there,
>
> In CherryPy Essentials p150 Sylvain mentions that Buffet should be
> ported to CP 3.0 soon ... I can't see anything about it on
> http://projects.dowski.com/view/buffet. Is it still on the agenda? I
> realize the question is a bit OT for this list but there is more to it
> ;)
>
Back then (and I mean like a year ago), Christian was tempted by the
idea, but much has passed since then and I believe that it might not
happen. Christian will confirm that but I think another project similar
to Buffet has stated since then (shame I can't remember its name).
> I am not sure whether you have read Ian Bicking latest blog post
> http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/21/the-shrinking-python-web-framework-world/.
> I am "saddened" not to see CP in there in some ways, but on the other
> hand the reason why I chose to learn CP is that I couldn't get my head
> around the "1st tier" web frameworks even if I really like the way
> Pylons does thing. Which got me thinking about CP "product
> positioning"!
>
> My amateur experience is that CP is a fantastic tool to get things
> done, not in a "I am developing the next big web 2.0 thing" but more
> in a "it doesn't have to be so convoluted" kind of way (which
> certainly comes from my own limitations). Playing with CP helps me
> understand why some need Django, Pylons, TurboGears, Zope though :P
>
> Has CP lost the "web framework war"? If so, should it reposition
> itself as an easier more straightforward alternative to the big 4 and
> find a place on the map of choices? What is your take on CP's future?
>
>
CP has not lost because CP isn't competing in the same zone. Ian is
right not to include it in his list. I think CP3 is like a good wine, it
gets much better after a while. CP has been under lots of pressure in
2006 but eventually came out well.
I use CP on a daily basis and plan on using it for soon-to-be-detailed
projects and I don't regret that choice because CP is well designed,
stable and efficient. I think CP is less glamourous than other larger
frameworks but what it adverts, it does it well I think. I believe our
users have fun with it too.
CP's future? I don't know, CP3 is really great as it is and apart from
minor releases I don't see a major new version coming anytime soone.
Unless someone's ready to put as much time as Robert did put in CP3.
- Sylvain
Arnar Birgisson
On 8/22/07, Eugene Van den Bulke <eugene.va...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not sure whether you have read Ian Bicking latest blog post
> http://blog.ianbicking.org/2007/08/21/the-shrinking-python-web-framework-world/.
> I am "saddened" not to see CP in there in some ways, but on the other
> hand the reason why I chose to learn CP is that I couldn't get my head
> around the "1st tier" web frameworks even if I really like the way
> Pylons does thing. Which got me thinking about CP "product
> positioning"!
In my mind I don't really classify CherryPy as a "web framework" at
all - so I probably wouldn't include it on such a list myself. To me
CherryPy is an advanced web server in pure python, it just serves
"code results" instead of traditional pages. Frankly, I mostly use CP
they way I used mod_python before. We all agree that mod_python is not
a framework I think.
Coupled with a template engine, an ORM or object database and some
glue code - CherryPy makes for an excellent core of a framework for
those who want to roll their own.
> My amateur experience is that CP is a fantastic tool to get things
> done, not in a "I am developing the next big web 2.0 thing" but more
> in a "it doesn't have to be so convoluted" kind of way (which
> certainly comes from my own limitations). Playing with CP helps me
> understand why some need Django, Pylons, TurboGears, Zope though :P
It all depends on the project. In my job, I can classify most projects
into either "highly customized" web apps that do a lot of business
logic and "basic content mgmt" web apps. The former I do with CherryPy
but the latter is way easier to do with Django.
It turns out that many internal applications fall in the former
category, while popular social networking sites that everyone compares
themselves with falls in the latter category. What I'm saying is that
applications where CP suits best are not as visible/popular as the
other ones.
> Has CP lost the "web framework war"? If so, should it reposition
> itself as an easier more straightforward alternative to the big 4 and
> find a place on the map of choices? What is your take on CP's future?
As should be clear by now I don't think CP should take part in a "web
framework war" at all. It's a completely different thing and should
keep working as such, providing a solid foundation for advanced
applications that can't be held back by the constraints of a
framework.
> Please bear in mind that I am not a professional web developer, that I
> love how CP empowers me in developing my pet projects in which I tend
> to combine CP, Mako and Storm, I would just like to hear/read expert
> opinion on this.
There's your framework, CP+Mako+Storm :o)
For me it's CP+Genshi+SQLAlchemy - and that's the good thing about CP,
it lets me do things my way where I need to.
Arnar
Robert Brewer
> In CherryPy Essentials p150 Sylvain mentions that Buffet
> should be ported to CP 3.0 soon ... I can't see anything
> about it on http://projects.dowski.com/view/buffet. Is it
> still on the agenda? I realize the question is a bit OT
> for this list but there is more to it ;)
It looks like work is under way on it. See http://billmill.org/svn/buffet/trunk/buffet.py
> Has CP lost the "web framework war"? If so, should it
> reposition itself as an easier more straightforward
> alternative to the big 4 and find a place on the map
> of choices? What is your take on CP's future?
No repositioning necessary; it's already there. ;)
Robert Brewer
fuma...@aminus.org
Christian Wyglendowski
> Eugene Van den Bulke wrote:
> > In CherryPy Essentials p150 Sylvain mentions that Buffet
> > should be ported to CP 3.0 soon ... I can't see anything
> > about it on http://projects.dowski.com/view/buffet. Is it
> > still on the agenda? I realize the question is a bit OT
> > for this list but there is more to it ;)
>
> It looks like work is under way on it. See http://billmill.org/svn/buffet/trunk/buffet.py
Yep, Bill took the lead on getting the Buffet filter moved to a CP3 Tool.
The lack of a release is my fault. I'll see if I can get something
packaged up this week and uploaded to PyPI.
Christian
http://www.dowski.com
Eugene Van den Bulke
I just need to figure out WSGI and I can roll my own framework then :D
Cheers,
EuGeNe -- http://www.3kwa.com
Bill Mill
wrote:
> On 8/22/07, Robert Brewer <fuman...@aminus.org> wrote:
>
> > Eugene Van den Bulke wrote:
> > > In CherryPy Essentials p150 Sylvain mentions that Buffet
> > > should be ported to CP 3.0 soon ... I can't see anything
> > > still on the agenda? I realize the question is a bit OT
> > > for this list but there is more to it ;)
>
>
> Yep, Bill took the lead on getting the Buffet filter moved to a CP3 Tool.
>
Indeed; the code in svn trunk is now a CP3 tool that's been running on
billmill.org proper for months now without a hiccup.
You can check it out with "svn co http://billmill.org/svn/buffet/trunk
buffet" if you just need it now.
> The lack of a release is my fault. I'll see if I can get something
> packaged up this week and uploaded to PyPI.
Sweet. My only excuse for not releasing it myself so far has been that
setuptools scares me a bit, so I apologize too.
-Bill Mill
bill...@gmail.com
http://billmill.org
Eric Larson
If you are interested in a somewhat updated BuffetXSLT, feel free to
use XSLTemplates[1] as an example. I will adding a custom resolver and
some other niceties so that it could be usable like myghty or cheetah
(or whatever else) is regarding includes and adding extension
functions/elements.
I stick to WSGI most all the time so a CherryPy tool is not my forte,
but I am happy to help get a Buffet capable version up and running.
Eric
[1] http://code.google.com/p/xsltemplates/