I'm sorry to hear about your decision to close the project. I've loved Carbon Emacs and have been using it since I bought my first Mac a few years ago. Is there a specific reason behind your decision to end development, and is there anything we can do to help out? Either way, thank you for all your hard work, I really appreciate it.
Niels
On Apr 7, 1:49 am, Seiji Zenitani <zenit...@mac.com> wrote:
I'll need some other alternative if you're not releasing and I'm wondering how hard it would be to pick up. I'm an emacs user of over 30 years now, a gnu user and developer of close to that long, and professionally a unix release engineer. So I'm pretty close to the right skill set.
--rich
On Apr 6, 2010, at 22:49, Seiji Zenitani <zenit...@mac.com> wrote:
> Is there a specific reason behind your decision to > end development, and is there anything we can do to help out?
Recent GNU Emacs 23.x and coming GNU Emacs 24 (available via bzr) do not support "Carbon." Both are available with a "Cocoa" or OpenStep/ GNUSTEP ("NS") look. There are also patches around for an "AppKit" Emacs, again from Japan, and again from a developer of Carbon Emacs. Recent GNU Emacsen 23 and 24 also support a new coding system, utf-8- hfs, which handles the variant Apple uses to encode file names in its HFS.
-- Greetings
Pete
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Peter Dyballa wrote: > Recent GNU Emacs 23.x and coming GNU Emacs 24 (available via bzr) do > not support "Carbon." Both are available with a "Cocoa" or > OpenStep/GNUSTEP ("NS") look. There are also patches around for an > "AppKit" Emacs, again from Japan, and again from a developer of Carbon > Emacs. Recent GNU Emacsen 23 and 24 also support a new coding system, > utf-8-hfs, which handles the variant Apple uses to encode file names > in its HFS.
Is anyone else making periodic binary releases in English?
>> Is there a specific reason behind your decision to >> end development, and is there anything we can do to help out?
Yes: join the development of GNU Emacs 23 and Emacs 24 based on NS. You can do that by developing improvements and posting patches to the emacs-devel mailing list (the source code is available via bzr (not recommended) and via git (recommended) on repo.cz. You can also develop from within a downstream distribution, which may be advantageous if you want more support from fellow developers and also more bug reports from users. (You can then push changes back upstream.)
The Emacs community needs more Mac / NextStep developers who can program C (Objective C) and Cocoa, which is, by the way, simpler and nicer to work with than Carbon.
I have to write my own code, and when it comes to Emacs, I want to download a distribution that 'just works' and includes the packages I need. Carbon Emacs does that. I don't really want to hack on Emacs; I did that 15 years ago when it was crashing on my SGI Workstations.
I'd switch to a more mainline Emacs distro if I could find one that covers the same ground as Carbon Emacs. I've tried building from Emacs23 sources a couple of times and for reasons I don't remember I never got a build that 'just worked.'
I can full well understand Seiji's reluctance to keep Carbon-Emacs going; despite the fact that in current terms it's a small, fast program by comparison to mainstream applications, it's still a very complex application with a lot of legacy weirdness built in.
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 10:20 AM, David Reitter <david.reit...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Am 07.04.2010 um 16:10 schrieb Niels Widger:
>>> Is there a specific reason behind your decision to >>> end development, and is there anything we can do to help out?
> Yes: join the development of GNU Emacs 23 and Emacs 24 based on NS. You can do that by developing improvements and posting patches to the emacs-devel mailing list (the source code is available via bzr (not recommended) and via git (recommended) on repo.cz. You can also develop from within a downstream distribution, which may be advantageous if you want more support from fellow developers and also more bug reports from users. (You can then push changes back upstream.)
> The Emacs community needs more Mac / NextStep developers who can program C (Objective C) and Cocoa, which is, by the way, simpler and nicer to work with than Carbon.
Nothing prevents you from sticking with the version you have.
I can't speak for Seiji's project, but in my own distribution, I keep a Carbon-based (Emacs 22) branch ("Aquamacs 1.x") and we update it with bug fixes when appropriate. Of course, new features and substantial changes go into the Emacs 23, NS-based branch (Aquamacs 2.x). Of course this distribution has different goals and its default parametrization is probably not what you expect. That's where I used to recommend Carbon Emacs Package to people, even though switching off a few features isn't very difficult for seasoned Emacs users, and anyways I suspect it's just a matter of a few mouse clicks in the Options menu for most people.
Emacs 23 / NS in its raw form doesn't work very well. The GNU team switched to Bzr as version control system, and making commits has become too time-consuming for me and some others, so that doesn't help.
Either way, free software can only work if qualified people donate a bit of their spare time. So those who have time to spare (and like programming) should consider contributing to Emacs!
> I have to write my own code, and when it comes to Emacs, I want to > download a distribution that 'just works' and includes the packages I > need. Carbon Emacs does that. I don't really want to hack on Emacs; I > did that 15 years ago when it was crashing on my SGI Workstations.
> I'd switch to a more mainline Emacs distro if I could find one that > covers the same ground as Carbon Emacs. I've tried building from > Emacs23 sources a couple of times and for reasons I don't remember I > never got a build that 'just worked.'
> I can full well understand Seiji's reluctance to keep Carbon-Emacs > going; despite the fact that in current terms it's a small, fast > program by comparison to mainstream applications, it's still a very > complex application with a lot of legacy weirdness built in.
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 10:20 AM, David Reitter <david.reit...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Am 07.04.2010 um 16:10 schrieb Niels Widger:
>>>> Is there a specific reason behind your decision to >>>> end development, and is there anything we can do to help out?
>> Yes: join the development of GNU Emacs 23 and Emacs 24 based on NS. You can do that by developing improvements and posting patches to the emacs-devel mailing list (the source code is available via bzr (not recommended) and via git (recommended) on repo.cz. You can also develop from within a downstream distribution, which may be advantageous if you want more support from fellow developers and also more bug reports from users. (You can then push changes back upstream.)
>> The Emacs community needs more Mac / NextStep developers who can program C (Objective C) and Cocoa, which is, by the way, simpler and nicer to work with than Carbon.
All of this is good reason to migrate away from a Mac to a supported operating system like Linux. This is what I am doing to do; it is constant struggle to get emacs on the mac. I do appreciate all the amazing work Seiji and others have done to make my life productive in the past though. Thank you Seiji - you will be missed; and your change is enough to induce a change here as well.
Cheers,
-- Dennis Groves e: dennis.gro...@gmail.com "Think it, Ink it, Do it, Review it"
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:54 PM, David Reitter <david.reit...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Nothing prevents you from sticking with the version you have.
> I can't speak for Seiji's project, but in my own distribution, I keep a > Carbon-based (Emacs 22) branch ("Aquamacs 1.x") and we update it with bug > fixes when appropriate. Of course, new features and substantial changes go > into the Emacs 23, NS-based branch (Aquamacs 2.x). Of course this > distribution has different goals and its default parametrization is probably > not what you expect. That's where I used to recommend Carbon Emacs Package > to people, even though switching off a few features isn't very difficult for > seasoned Emacs users, and anyways I suspect it's just a matter of a few > mouse clicks in the Options menu for most people.
> Emacs 23 / NS in its raw form doesn't work very well. The GNU team > switched to Bzr as version control system, and making commits has become too > time-consuming for me and some others, so that doesn't help.
> Either way, free software can only work if qualified people donate a bit of > their spare time. So those who have time to spare (and like programming) > should consider contributing to Emacs!
> On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:38 AM, kent williams wrote:
> > I have to write my own code, and when it comes to Emacs, I want to > > download a distribution that 'just works' and includes the packages I > > need. Carbon Emacs does that. I don't really want to hack on Emacs; I > > did that 15 years ago when it was crashing on my SGI Workstations.
> > I'd switch to a more mainline Emacs distro if I could find one that > > covers the same ground as Carbon Emacs. I've tried building from > > Emacs23 sources a couple of times and for reasons I don't remember I > > never got a build that 'just worked.'
> > I can full well understand Seiji's reluctance to keep Carbon-Emacs > > going; despite the fact that in current terms it's a small, fast > > program by comparison to mainstream applications, it's still a very > > complex application with a lot of legacy weirdness built in.
> > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 10:20 AM, David Reitter <david.reit...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>> Am 07.04.2010 um 16:10 schrieb Niels Widger:
> >>>> Is there a specific reason behind your decision to > >>>> end development, and is there anything we can do to help out?
> >> Yes: join the development of GNU Emacs 23 and Emacs 24 based on NS. You > can do that by developing improvements and posting patches to the > emacs-devel mailing list (the source code is available via bzr (not > recommended) and via git (recommended) on repo.cz. You can also develop > from within a downstream distribution, which may be advantageous if you want > more support from fellow developers and also more bug reports from users. > (You can then push changes back upstream.)
> >> The Emacs community needs more Mac / NextStep developers who can program > C (Objective C) and Cocoa, which is, by the way, simpler and nicer to work > with than Carbon.
In don't get this. Aquamacs 1.* can perfectly emulate your default *nix emacs; I used to have the very same .emacs files for my *nix and Aquamacs distributions so to have the very same behaviour; and it is maintained as David pointed out. In Aquamacs 2.* this is still possible, but I guess that Aquamacs 2.* comes with some added commodities that require some (small) effort to be switched off - if your really don't want these additions (and they are harmless if you just want to use the bare emacs). cheers --e.
> All of this is good reason to migrate away from a Mac to a supported operating system like Linux. > This is what I am doing to do; it is constant struggle to get emacs on the mac. I do appreciate all the amazing work Seiji and others have done to make my life productive in the past though. Thank you Seiji - you will be missed; and your change is enough to induce a change here as well.
> Cheers,
> -- > Dennis Groves > e: dennis.gro...@gmail.com > "Think it, Ink it, Do it, Review it"
> On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:54 PM, David Reitter <david.reit...@gmail.com> wrote: > Nothing prevents you from sticking with the version you have.
> I can't speak for Seiji's project, but in my own distribution, I keep a Carbon-based (Emacs 22) branch ("Aquamacs 1.x") and we update it with bug fixes when appropriate. Of course, new features and substantial changes go into the Emacs 23, NS-based branch (Aquamacs 2.x). Of course this distribution has different goals and its default parametrization is probably not what you expect. That's where I used to recommend Carbon Emacs Package to people, even though switching off a few features isn't very difficult for seasoned Emacs users, and anyways I suspect it's just a matter of a few mouse clicks in the Options menu for most people.
> Emacs 23 / NS in its raw form doesn't work very well. The GNU team switched to Bzr as version control system, and making commits has become too time-consuming for me and some others, so that doesn't help.
> Either way, free software can only work if qualified people donate a bit of their spare time. So those who have time to spare (and like programming) should consider contributing to Emacs!
> On Apr 7, 2010, at 11:38 AM, kent williams wrote:
> > I have to write my own code, and when it comes to Emacs, I want to > > download a distribution that 'just works' and includes the packages I > > need. Carbon Emacs does that. I don't really want to hack on Emacs; I > > did that 15 years ago when it was crashing on my SGI Workstations.
> > I'd switch to a more mainline Emacs distro if I could find one that > > covers the same ground as Carbon Emacs. I've tried building from > > Emacs23 sources a couple of times and for reasons I don't remember I > > never got a build that 'just worked.'
> > I can full well understand Seiji's reluctance to keep Carbon-Emacs > > going; despite the fact that in current terms it's a small, fast > > program by comparison to mainstream applications, it's still a very > > complex application with a lot of legacy weirdness built in.
> > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 10:20 AM, David Reitter <david.reit...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> Am 07.04.2010 um 16:10 schrieb Niels Widger:
> >>>> Is there a specific reason behind your decision to > >>>> end development, and is there anything we can do to help out?
> >> Yes: join the development of GNU Emacs 23 and Emacs 24 based on NS. You can do that by developing improvements and posting patches to the emacs-devel mailing list (the source code is available via bzr (not recommended) and via git (recommended) on repo.cz. You can also develop from within a downstream distribution, which may be advantageous if you want more support from fellow developers and also more bug reports from users. (You can then push changes back upstream.)
> >> The Emacs community needs more Mac / NextStep developers who can program C (Objective C) and Cocoa, which is, by the way, simpler and nicer to work with than Carbon.
The last few macs I have had, have been as crapy as the PC's that I had run from for the alleged quality of a Mac (it was true for most of a decade).
But, I no longer see the value in paying for *premium hardware* when it is no more reliable for the money.
Compound this with the fact that Apple froze my $2000 investment in music when I moved country and can no longer listen to it; and add to this that my 'iPhone' can not be used in the new country without 'committing a crime' (computer misuse act - section 1; unauthorized access) -
The fact that emacs is fast becoming a third class citizen of the OSX, this is just the icing on the cake so to speak.
I have no reason to remain a loyal 'mac user'...
Cheers,
-- Dennis Groves "Think it, Ink it, Do it, Review it"
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Enrico Franconi <franc...@inf.unibz.it>wrote:
> In don't get this. > Aquamacs 1.* can perfectly emulate your default *nix emacs; I used to have > the very same .emacs files for my *nix and Aquamacs distributions so to have > the very same behaviour; and it is maintained as David pointed out. > In Aquamacs 2.* this is still possible, but I guess that Aquamacs 2.* comes > with some added commodities that require some (small) effort to be switched > off - if your really don't want these additions (and they are harmless if > you just want to use the bare emacs). > cheers > --e.
> The last few macs I have had, have been as crapy as the PC's that I had run from for the alleged quality of a Mac (it was true for most of a decade). > But, I no longer see the value in paying for *premium hardware* when it is no more reliable for the money.
Every time I have to use a Windows (or GNU/Linux) machine, I see why I am spending (expensing) a few dollars more for an Apple system. The hardware is no more reliable for sure, but the middleware and the applications are. Big savings (time is valuable).
> Compound this with the fact that Apple froze my $2000 investment in music when I moved country
My bought music (iTunes) plays just fine, even after moving two countries. Of course I prefer free formats, which are sold by Apple now as well...
> and can no longer listen to it; and add to this that my 'iPhone' can not be used in the new country without 'committing a crime' (computer misuse act - section 1; unauthorized access) -
That UK act is known to be flawed. Unlocking an iPhone illegal? I have not heard of that. Can you provide a reference? (And if you pay the unsubsidized price, you can probably go without unlocking anyways. This whole thing has nothing to do with Apple. It's an industry/consumer problem.)
> The fact that emacs is fast becoming a third class citizen of the OSX, this is just the icing on the cake so to speak.
... an accusation up with which I shall not put.
Emacs is not just GNU Emacs. We're putting plenty of work in maintaining Emacs for the Mac, at least in my downstream project. The latest versions of GNU Emacs already uses Apple's most modern, object-oriented API, and the distro adds what is missing.
That said: people switching to a free operating system is a good thing. Just do it for the right reasons - freedom and flexibility. Good luck!
> This is what I am doing to do; it is constant struggle to get emacs > on the > mac.
Since Mac OS 9 Carbon Emacs simply worked on Macs. With recent (last) Carbon Emacs you have a stable application that will run as long as Apple supports in new OS releases Mac OS X 10.6 compliant software. And when Apple will stop this support you will have learned how to create a virtual instance of a Mac OS X in which you can run recent (last) Carbon Emacs.
Today it's the seventh of April. You now can stop joking. (Or start joking again that many up-to-date Linux distributions come with a "fresh" GNU Emacs 22.x.) And maybe your problems are based on the fact that you have Apple's castrated terminal Emacs and Carbon Emacs installed. The same situation will exist in your future Linux box: the standard GNU Emacs 22.x and a non-standard GNU Emacs 23.x or 24.x.
Seiji, I am rather sorry to read that you will close down your project as I have used your Carbon Emacs package ever since I switched to the Mac three years ago. So first I would like to thank you for your effort which was a great service to the Mac community, I think.
Am 07.04.10 16:32 schrieb Peter Dyballa:
>> Is there a specific reason behind your decision to >> end development, and is there anything we can do to help out?
> Recent GNU Emacs 23.x and coming GNU Emacs 24 (available via bzr) do not > support "Carbon." Both are available with a "Cocoa" or OpenStep/GNUSTEP > ("NS") look. There are also patches around for an "AppKit" Emacs, again > from Japan, and again from a developer of Carbon Emacs. Recent GNU > Emacsen 23 and 24 also support a new coding system, utf-8-hfs, which > handles the variant Apple uses to encode file names in its HFS.
Just to make this clear: Which Emacs will we use after Seiji's Carbon Emacs package has become obsolete?
I've tried compiling Emacs 23 myself and the result did not convince me at all. Impossible to use it for work.
One thing I noticed is that it remembers its state more than stock Emacs (or Carbon Emacs) -- if you close a file, and then re-open it sets the point to where it was when it was closed. And when I quit and come back, if I've scribbled some lisp in the *scratch* folder it's still there.
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Juergen Fenn <juergen.f...@gmx.de> wrote: > Seiji, I am rather sorry to read that you will close down your project > as I have used your Carbon Emacs package ever since I switched to the > Mac three years ago. So first I would like to thank you for your effort > which was a great service to the Mac community, I think.
> Am 07.04.10 16:32 schrieb Peter Dyballa:
>>> Is there a specific reason behind your decision to >>> end development, and is there anything we can do to help out?
>> Recent GNU Emacs 23.x and coming GNU Emacs 24 (available via bzr) do not >> support "Carbon." Both are available with a "Cocoa" or OpenStep/GNUSTEP >> ("NS") look. There are also patches around for an "AppKit" Emacs, again >> from Japan, and again from a developer of Carbon Emacs. Recent GNU >> Emacsen 23 and 24 also support a new coding system, utf-8-hfs, which >> handles the variant Apple uses to encode file names in its HFS.
> Just to make this clear: Which Emacs will we use after Seiji's Carbon > Emacs package has become obsolete?
> I've tried compiling Emacs 23 myself and the result did not convince me > at all. Impossible to use it for work.
> Has this changed in the meanwhile? > What's next?
> I'd switch to a more mainline Emacs distro if I could find one that > covers the same ground as Carbon Emacs. I've tried building from > Emacs23 sources a couple of times and for reasons I don't remember I > never got a build that 'just worked.'
I've been using the Emacs 23 build for Mac OS X made available here:
No mate, I am not joking - I run my own compile of version 23 in the terminal and there is loads of goodness that runs half-assed if at all. (server for example) - seriously; the osx terminal/bsd layer is as schizophrenic as any windows box ever was.
I tried AquaEmacs for a while; and frankly it is just to much like a Mac. So I found this one that Seiji is no longer going to maintain; but it is getting long in tooth and all of my .emacs doesn't run in it and my fingers don't want to have to know the difference between the two.
As for the computer misuse act; and 'my music and iphone; sure I could 'get it back' - but that would be against the law, something I was attempting to support by purchasing my music from a forward thinking company.
Technically, unlocking / un-drm-ing my music are all criminal acts under the computer misuse act section one - unauthorized access. Do I like it? Do I agree? Not a chance in hell do I agree with or like it.
However, I believe it is a matter of principal, and that I shouldn't have to become a criminal to have fair use of what I paid for.
The whole experience I have had with Apple reminds me of why our freedoms are so important. And yeah - Apples are sexy, And Apple has nice middleware/software and that is brilliant if you use it. I don't, I run gnu software.
And when I moved to mac 10 years ago, I thought I could run gnu stuff on the mac; it turns out you can - kinda, and gradually I used some of the middle ware, I have now been bitten (2 years ago) for selling my freedom. And now I have had 2 machines fail in the last year both new, both repaired under warranty. One has failed again after repair. However, I can get this kind of suckage for £250 on any street corner. I don't have to pay Apples tax.
Apples just didn't used to suck like this my Pismo Powerbook *still works* like a charm and has 10 hours battery life. OSX brought many, many needed changes and I thought it would be a better 10 years than it has been.
I thought I was going to have my freedom and a sexy Apple. In the end all I got is a sexy apple at the price of my freedom. I am sorry I ever stopped using completely 'free' software, and purchasing machines with proprietary hardware.
-- Dennis Groves "Think it, Ink it, Do it, Review it"
On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 8:46 PM, Peter Dyballa <Peter_Dyba...@web.de> wrote:
> Am 07.04.2010 um 19:56 schrieb Dennis Groves:
> This is what I am doing to do; it is constant struggle to get emacs on the >> mac.
> Since Mac OS 9 Carbon Emacs simply worked on Macs. With recent (last) > Carbon Emacs you have a stable application that will run as long as Apple > supports in new OS releases Mac OS X 10.6 compliant software. And when Apple > will stop this support you will have learned how to create a virtual > instance of a Mac OS X in which you can run recent (last) Carbon Emacs.
> Today it's the seventh of April. You now can stop joking. (Or start joking > again that many up-to-date Linux distributions come with a "fresh" GNU Emacs > 22.x.) And maybe your problems are based on the fact that you have Apple's > castrated terminal Emacs and Carbon Emacs installed. The same situation will > exist in your future Linux box: the standard GNU Emacs 22.x and a > non-standard GNU Emacs 23.x or 24.x.
> One thing I noticed is that it remembers its state more than stock > Emacs (or Carbon Emacs) -- if you close a file, and then re-open it > sets the point to where it was when it was closed. And when I quit > and come back, if I've scribbled some lisp in the *scratch* folder > it's still there.
The latter is quite surprising (I mean – what I once scratched down were just scratches), the former comes from active desktop, maybe plus additional session. Both are available in Carbon Emacs – and active in my working environment.
-- Greetings
Pete
Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same. – Oscar Wilde
