RED-GREEN ALLIANCE vs. BIG RIGHT
Steven Kaasgaard
parts of its foundation into one formidable force
which they call the "United Alternative"
Hmmmmm?
The Left in Canada must also realize the bounty at stake
left to drift away because of splintering of movements
and special interest groups the left consists of.
Germany recently elected an alliance government between
the Social Democrats and the Green Party.
In Saskatchewan there is a new party called the New
Green Alliance currently organizing for a run in the
provincial election...
Countrywide unification of the Left(Red) with the movement/party etc.
(Green) is our only chance at standing up to the Big Right!
Steven
--
James Goneaux
wrote:
>Countrywide unification of the Left(Red) with the movement/party etc.
>(Green) is our only chance at standing up to the Big Right!
>Steven
Well, the "left", as you put it, now represented solely by the NDP,
gets about 15% of the vote. The Greens are off the map, but lets give
them 1%.
That means you could just about beat the Rhinos.
BTW, Germany has a far, far different way of electing people.
Any other ideas?
Saskatchewan Internet News Ltd.
Goneaux) wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:02:36 GMT, dc...@torfree.net (Steven Kaasgaard)
>wrote:
>
>>Countrywide unification of the Left(Red) with the movement/party etc.
>>(Green) is our only chance at standing up to the Big Right!
>>Steven
>
>Well, the "left", as you put it, now represented solely by the NDP,
>gets about 15% of the vote. The Greens are off the map, but lets give
>them 1%.
>
>That means you could just about beat the Rhinos.
There are a lot of people out there who won't vote because they find
that no-one is appealing. I'm among that number. The provincial NDP
might as well rename itself the less incompetent PC's, and the feds
have been almost as much of a sell-out: when they aren't peddling
feminazi material, their peddling pay raised for public sector
employees and a tougher attitude towards criminals - polices which
just raise the level of distain for them.
Perhaps with a red/green alliance the reds and the greens can affect
the policies of the sell-out dems and at least make themselves
somewhat progressive.
>BTW, Germany has a far, far different way of electing people.
>
>Any other ideas?
Perhaps we should also move away from the first past the post system,
and to a proportional rep system.
liberal representative democracies are rarely either.
Nick Bowden
> The Right in Canada is surmising joining two mortal enemy
> parts of its foundation into one formidable force
> which they call the "United Alternative"
> Hmmmmm?
> The Left in Canada must also realize the bounty at stake
> left to drift away because of splintering of movements
> and special interest groups the left consists of.
> Germany recently elected an alliance government between
> the Social Democrats and the Green Party.
> In Saskatchewan there is a new party called the New
> Green Alliance currently organizing for a run in the
> provincial election...
> Countrywide unification of the Left(Red) with the movement/party etc.
> (Green) is our only chance at standing up to the Big Right!
> Steven
> --
And this has got to do with aus.politics?
Sheldon Scott
<snip>
The Red Green alliance? Count me in! :-)
I'm pulling for you, Steve - we're all in this together. :-)
Keep your stick on the ice. :-)
Nick Bowden <bow...@uq.net.au> wrote:
>Steven Kaasgaard wrote:
>And this has got to do with aus.politics?
>
About as much as it has to do with can.politics - nothing.
--
): "I may make you feel, but I can't make you think" :(
(: Off the monitor, through the modem, nothing but net :)
James Goneaux
Very true. Its probably because of the number of coaliton governments
that have to be formed. Of course, we wouldn't want an Israel or
Italy, either.
But its a step in the right direction...
-----------------------
email: jam...@pathcom.com
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind
and won't change the subject." -- Winston Churchill
Chris J Delanoy
> The Right in Canada is surmising joining two mortal enemy
> parts of its foundation into one formidable force
> which they call the "United Alternative"
Actually, most of us who are actual, principled right-wingers are
quite opposed to the United Alternative farce. It has nothing to
do with any sort of ideology - it has to do with egos and power.
- Chris J Delanoy
--
http://www.ualberta.ca/~cdelanoy/
Supporting a principled Alternative, not a United one.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Ivan Satori
>James Goneaux (jam...@my-dejanews.com) wrote:
>
>: BTW, Germany has a far, far different way of electing people.
>
>- Proportional representation is the electoral method in Big 'D'
>- If the 1st past the post system doesn't treat a splintered left
>- with respect..we either change the electoral system or we set our
>- egos aside and dance as one against a collection of fascists and
>- status quo clowns still in polyester
>: Any other ideas?
>- yes every revolution requires em!
>- Thanx Steven
I take it you're not particularly happy with the status quo.
What changes should the revolution bring? (I can probably guess the goals -
what I am asking about is the ways how to make them happen.)
Steven Kaasgaard
: BTW, Germany has a far, far different way of electing people.
- Proportional representation is the electoral method in Big 'D'
- If the 1st past the post system doesn't treat a splintered left
- with respect..we either change the electoral system or we set our
- egos aside and dance as one against a collection of fascists and
- status quo clowns still in polyester
: Any other ideas?
- yes every revolution requires em!
- Thanx Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: Steven Kaasgaard wrote:
: > The Right in Canada is surmising joining two mortal enemy
: > parts of its foundation into one formidable force
: > which they call the "United Alternative"
: > Hmmmmm?
: > The Left in Canada must also realize the bounty at stake
: > left to drift away because of splintering of movements
: > and special interest groups the left consists of.
: > Germany recently elected an alliance government between
: > the Social Democrats and the Green Party.
: > In Saskatchewan there is a new party called the New
: > Green Alliance currently organizing for a run in the
: > provincial election...
: > Countrywide unification of the Left(Red) with the movement/party etc.
: > (Green) is our only chance at standing up to the Big Right!
: > Steven
: > --
: And this has got to do with aus.politics?
* It is the concern of the entire planet when it comes
* to the actions of such a political entity as the Green Party.
* Since we all require clean air,land and water in order to live.
* And the democratic ramifications of Green Politics might be interesting
* if not our only way of surviving through environmental disasters
* left on us by our previous generations.
* Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: Actually, most of us who are actual, principled right-wingers are
: quite opposed to the United Alternative farce. It has nothing to
: do with any sort of ideology - it has to do with egos and power.
* You don't know how glad I am to hear you say that!
* folks still fret'n oer simple things like ego and power...
* Every group with a hierarchy seems to have its share
* of stepped on toes though
* The common enemy of the left and the right is hierarchy...
* You think they'll at least agree to that.
* For our Australian viewers the Reform Party in Canada might
* be the equivalent to your "One Nation Party"
* Very Very Right!
* Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: I take it you're not particularly happy with the status quo.
: What changes should the revolution bring? (I can probably guess the goals -
: what I am asking about is the ways how to make them happen.)
* Like the east bloc countries did when breaking up satellite status of
* the Soviet Union. They took over the radio/television and wouldn't
* allow the police and/or military from disrupting the broadcasts.
* Changes this revolution may bring? Hmmm? ..how about a new era
* where money is the weakest measure of success.
* Steven
--
James Goneaux
wrote:
>James Goneaux (jam...@my-dejanews.com) wrote:
>
>: BTW, Germany has a far, far different way of electing people.
>
>- Proportional representation is the electoral method in Big 'D'
>- If the 1st past the post system doesn't treat a splintered left
>- with respect..we either change the electoral system or we set our
>- egos aside and dance as one against a collection of fascists and
>- status quo clowns still in polyester
Er...ok.
Of course, when you lose anyway, I'm sure you'll have an even more
ammunition, as it were, for your revolving....I mean, revololution.
>: Any other ideas?
>- yes every revolution requires em!
>- Thanx Steven
Let me rephrase that: any other ideas that aen't brain dead?
Henrietta K. Thomas
In us.politics, on Sat, 30 Jan 1999 03:58:44 GMT, dc...@torfree.net (Steven
Kaasgaard) wrote:
It *still* doesn't belong in aus.politics or us.politics either. If you
want to reach "the whole planet," go to talk.politics in the Big 8
and leave the regionals alone.
Henrietta K. Thomas
us.* hierarchy coordinator
usa...@wwa.com
Buffalo Bill
Thomas) wrote:
>It *still* doesn't belong in aus.politics or us.politics either. If you
>want to reach "the whole planet," go to talk.politics in the Big 8
>and leave the regionals alone.
>
>Henrietta K. Thomas
>us.* hierarchy coordinator
>usa...@wwa.com
>
You're absolutely right Henrietta...had prefixed the rest of his
lunatic fringe nonsense with stuff about sex in hallways or with
cigars, it might be relevant to us.politics. Absolutely, he should
know better than to make a political post in political newsgroups.
Are you really that bored or narrow minded that you **as a news
admin** just had to go to all the trouble of altering newsgroups to
make a public reply to spank someone for something that isn't spam,
albeit in your opinion is off topic for a regional newsgroup?
Maybe we can talk Chris Lewis into publicly spanking every red neck or
clueless Yank that dares post anything to any newsgroups on the
Canadian side of the border. Hell why stop there, since you have such
concern for Australia, maybe Lewis can adopt all of Europe.
Chicago is known as the windy city, and with that huge sucking noise I
hear I think I know why...
ian...@hotmail.com
dc...@torfree.net (Steven Kaasgaard) wrote:
> Chris J Delanoy (cdel...@ualberta.ca) wrote:
>
> : Actually, most of us who are actual, principled right-wingers are
> : quite opposed to the United Alternative farce. It has nothing to
> : do with any sort of ideology - it has to do with egos and power.
I'll see firsthand if it's a farce.
I'm a registered UA delegate. If it
causes a leadership convention later
this year, UA has been worthwhile.
Ian Berg
Yorkton, Saskatchewan, Canada
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/2904
RDovey
actually gaining power. If there was a choice between a coal power plant being
built, and reduced or nonexistent power to a city in winter, which would be
chosen?
Fight for what you believe in, and never give up, for
a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.
Russell Dovey, Canberra, Australia.
ICQ:11780873 mailto:elau...@iname.com
ewal...@brendarenfarm.com
(RDovey), wrote:
The question is really this: If there was a choice between a smoke
belching, earth polluting, piece-of-shit, coal-burning power boiler, built
and operated by a bunch of care-for-nothing-but-their-own-greed
cocksuckers, and, a modern, all-scrubbers-attached, carefully operated
coal-burning power boiler, replete with sophisticated monitoring equipment,
built and operated with community support and ongoing community input;
which would be chosen by Green party advocates?
Fight for what you believe in, Russell, never consider sensible
alternatives, for the support of a bad idea begins with your own stupidity.
Steven Kaasgaard
: There's something that's always concerned me with regard to Green parties
: actually gaining power. If there was a choice between a coal power plant being
: built, and reduced or nonexistent power to a city in winter, which would be
: chosen?
* Actually we Greens are pretty practical... we'd burn coal but
* have research and development teams looking into alternative energy.
* Set in motion a decentralization of decision making so that dead ends
* like the example you gave above are given the full array of possible
* solutions.Because we need to avoid dangerous centralization of essential
* services like energy or administration/bureaucracy.How we treat
* each other relates alot to how we will eventually treat our
* environment.
: Fight for what you believe in, and never give up, for
: a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.
* 100th monkey syndrome..
* still looking for that "global" 100th monkey!
* Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: Of course, when you lose anyway, I'm sure you'll have an even more
: ammunition, as it were, for your revolving....I mean, revololution.
* Three cheers for pollution,corporate disregard for human rights
* top down control systems, wage slavery,
* finite resources with no alternative
* plan!
--
James Goneaux
wrote:
>James Goneaux (jam...@my-dejanews.com) wrote:
You mean like in Green influenced Germany and Sweden today?
Point: Sweden shuts down a perfectly good, well-running nuclear
reactor. Forced to buy energy from coal-fired plants in Denmark.
Pollution from Denmark flows into Sweden.
Point: Germany commits to shutting down its nuclear industry. How to
replace energy? Why, French nuclear power, of course. Problem is,
France can barely keep up with the supply for France. There is no plan
that allows it to power Germany either.
More coal burning, more CO2. Germany has already asked to have its
goal for the Kyoto Accord scaled back for later in the next decade.
Smooth....
Chris J Delanoy
> * Three cheers for pollution,corporate disregard for human rights
> * top down control systems, wage slavery, finite resources with
> * no alternative plan!
Hip hip hoorah! Hip hip horrah! Hip hip horrah!
Chris J Delanoy
--
http://www.ualberta.ca/~cdelanoy/
Supporting a principled Alternative, not a United one.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ivan Satori
Steven Kaasgaard wrote in message ...
Is this as specific as it gets?
Could you name some of the stronger measures of success that would prevail?
Ivan Satori
>* Actually we Greens are pretty practical... we'd burn coal but
>* have research and development teams looking into alternative energy.
>* Set in motion a decentralization of decision making so that dead ends
>* like the example you gave above are given the full array of possible
>* solutions.Because we need to avoid dangerous centralization of essential
>* services like energy or administration/bureaucracy.How we treat
>* each other relates alot to how we will eventually treat our
>* environment.
Would you have one team for any particular problem or several teams?
What mechanism do you envision for the decentralized decision making?
Steven Kaasgaard
Steven wrote:
: >* Changes this revolution may bring? Hmmm? ..how about a new era
: >* where money is the weakest measure of success.
: Is this as specific as it gets?
: Could you name some of the stronger measures of success that would prevail?
Gee Ian...what more than a conserver society could we expect?
A bottem up decision making system would actually be the determinating
factor in what specific things in society we need to change.
Lets see.. what people could come up with...How about a closed loop
total 100% recycling system..where if there is no way to reintroduce
it into the use stream it won't be created..
A conserver society, a sustainable route for humankind.
Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: Steven Kaasgaard wrote in message ...
How about monthly phone referendums.
Direct Democracy - the stuff we dream about when we listen
to modern day visionaries like Noam Chomsky, Che Guevarra
and Murray Bookchin...
any suggestions... liquid democracy...follows the cracks we
open... for it
Steven
--
Ivan Satori
A piece of text seems to have gotten lost.
My question was NOT WHAT to expect or hope or work for, BUT HOW to achieve
that.
I apologize for shouting, just trying to get the contents through.
Ivan Satori
>: What mechanism do you envision for the decentralized decision making?
>How about monthly phone referendums.
>Direct Democracy - the stuff we dream about when we listen
>to modern day visionaries like Noam Chomsky, Che Guevarra
>and Murray Bookchin...
>any suggestions... liquid democracy...follows the cracks we
>open... for it
>Steven
How would the referendum work:
- who would formulate questions,
- who would moderate the teleconference,
- how the votes would be counted, the process monitored, manipulation with
numbers prevented,
- how carrying through of accepted decision will be organized,
- if proponents of losing proposition wouldn't want to participate in
implementation of the winning proposition, how situations like that would be
resolved,
- how would the participants obtain information they need for making up
their mind in voting:
- what carrying medium would be used (paper, computer screen, etc.),
- in which way the information would be put together - who would do that,
how would the process be monitored,
this kind of question.
Also, some basic ideas about how the production of food would be organized:
- who would work,
- how many hours a day,
- how would the results be distributed,
- who would organize the distribution,
- how fairness of the process would be monitored, ...
... feel free to elaborate on any important organizational aspect I left
out.
Steven Kaasgaard
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution:
Ivan Satori (sat...@tpn.com) wrote:
: A piece of text seems to have gotten lost.
: My question was NOT WHAT to expect or hope or work for, BUT HOW to achieve
: that.
: I apologize for shouting, just trying to get the contents through.
- how we achieve these goals would be through a political
- party which incorporates a non-hierarchical structure,entrenching
- decentralism into decision making. This is fundamentally what the
- original "Green Party" was based upon. Recent "traditional"
- party additions to the party crippled its original goals.
- To many of us former Green Party members the current effort
- is "stinkingly normal" not new at all but still somewhat of an
- alternative until we create an Alternative List.
- Steven
--
Steven Kaasgaard
: Steven Kaasgaard wrote in message ...
: >Ivan Satori (sat...@tpn.com) wrote:
: >: Would you have one team for any particular problem or several teams?
: >: What mechanism do you envision for the decentralized decision making?
: >How about monthly phone referendums.
: >Direct Democracy - the stuff we dream about when we listen
: >to modern day visionaries like Noam Chomsky, Che Guevarra
: >and Murray Bookchin...
: >any suggestions... liquid democracy...follows the cracks we
: >open... for it
: >Steven
: How would the referendum work:
: - who would formulate questions,
: - who would moderate the teleconference,
: - how the votes would be counted, the process monitored, manipulation with
: numbers prevented,
: - how carrying through of accepted decision will be organized,
: - if proponents of losing proposition wouldn't want to participate in
: implementation of the winning proposition, how situations like that would be
: resolved,
: - how would the participants obtain information they need for making up
: their mind in voting:
: - what carrying medium would be used (paper, computer screen, etc.),
: - in which way the information would be put together - who would do that,
: how would the process be monitored,
: this kind of question.
: Also, some basic ideas about how the production of food would be organized:
: - who would work,
: - how many hours a day,
: - how would the results be distributed,
: - who would organize the distribution,
: - how fairness of the process would be monitored, ...
: ... feel free to elaborate on any important organizational aspect I left
: out.
- very thorough
- democracies need vigilant questioners
- certainly any referendum system would
- include most of your suggestions...
- however we need to build this pool
- before we consider the contents...eh?
- Steven
--
Ivan Satori
Steven Kaasgaard wrote in message ...
>Ivan Satori (sat...@tpn.com) wrote:
>: How would the referendum work:
>: - who would formulate questions,
>: - who would moderate the teleconference,
>: - how the votes would be counted, the process monitored, manipulation
with
>- very thorough
>- democracies need vigilant questioners
I would think, this is only half of what is needed, and the easiest one to
get. The other half is a responsive system which
- answers the questions,
- provides corrective measures when the answers are not satisfactory,
- is resistant to abuse.
The last two are a little tricky to get in balance. I would really like to
hear a specific answer about what the system guaranteeing this balance would
look like.
>- certainly any referendum system would
>- include most of your suggestions...
What I am trying to find out is where does this certainty flow from. If
somebody wants me to help building a house, I would like to see some
blueprints, some static calculations, what materials are to be used, cost
estimates and the like. A house that is not properly designed might fall
apart and kill the people inside. If the best and most detailed answer I
would be able to get was "don't worry, everything is going to be just fine",
it is very unlikely I could be persuaded to participate.
I suspect that building a new structure and organization of society might be
even a tad more complex than building a house.
>- however we need to build this pool
>- before we consider the contents...eh?
>- Steven
That's exactly the approach that I find a little worrisome. I am quite sure
that if this was the way environmental assessment of proposals for new
development worked, the developers would be much happier than people worried
about sustainable economics.
Steven Kaasgaard
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution:
Ivan Satori (sat...@tpn.com) wrote:
: What I am trying to find out is where does this certainty flow from.
- I suppose we can agree that with certainty capitalism will eat itself
- and that what "system" thereof occurs is to be determined by those
- "in control" It is my belief that we should educate the general public
- of the possibilities available to them. Decentralism would incorporate
- the people back into the real decision making process.
: That's exactly the approach that I find a little worrisome. I am quite sure
: that if this was the way environmental assessment of proposals for new
: development worked, the developers would be much happier than people worried
: about sustainable economics.
- Well Ivan I'm one piece in a large puzzle and I'm not interested
- in leading gumbies out of the puppet state they find themselves
- affixed in. Natural selection has weird ways of correcting us!
- I'm just interested in recipes for a re-democratization
- of the world around me... If some of them follow better for them
- we're only trying to "risk more democracy" We can show em but they
- might not bite!
- I'm hoping to educate the public, appraise them of what their
- current "democracy" lacks and make it clear that we all
- have a role to play. It would be presumptuos of us to take it upon
- ourselves to do all the work for nothing say if what we get
- after what we have now is some totalitarian state.
- If your worried now about the environmental assessment process
- or the current status of our environment...we've already
- passed the fail safe point your worry is in vain...
- We can only work with what the generations from before leave us
- Steven
--
Ivan Satori
>: What I am trying to find out is where does this certainty flow from.
>- I suppose we can agree that with certainty capitalism will eat itself
>- and that what "system" thereof occurs is to be determined by those
>- "in control"
work towards.
>- It is my belief that we should educate the general public
>- of the possibilities available to them. Decentralism would incorporate
>- the people back into the real decision making process.
That's what I am trying to get - some education on the possibilities. Do you
know which they are or do you know about some source that would outline at
least some basic features of those options?
>: That's exactly the approach that I find a little worrisome. I am quite
sure
>: that if this was the way environmental assessment of proposals for new
>: development worked, the developers would be much happier than people
worried
>: about sustainable economics.
>- Well Ivan I'm one piece in a large puzzle and I'm not interested
>- in leading gumbies out of the puppet state they find themselves
>- affixed in. Natural selection has weird ways of correcting us!
>- I'm just interested in recipes for a re-democratization
>- of the world around me...
Now, I am not sure what you're saying: Do you say that you have some (and
want to share them), or that you yourself are looking for some?
>-If some of them follow better for them
>- we're only trying to "risk more democracy" We can show em but they
>- might not bite!
>- I'm hoping to educate the public, appraise them of what their
>- current "democracy" lacks and make it clear that we all
>- have a role to play.
What is it that the current democracy lacks? What is the role we have to
play?
>- It would be presumptuos of us to take it upon
>- ourselves to do all the work for nothing say if what we get
>- after what we have now is some totalitarian state.
I am getting probably a little lost here: It seemed to me that your
intentions were to educate the public. Now, you seem to say that it would be
presumptuous to do all the work. Could you help me to sort it out?
>- If your worried now about the environmental assessment process
>- or the current status of our environment...we've already
>- passed the fail safe point your worry is in vain...
>- We can only work with what the generations from before leave us
While I am of course concerned about the environment and how regulations in
that area work, in my remark, I used it just as an example, to illustrate
the nature of my worry: it seemed to me that you were proposing a different
social organization than the current one, and it seemed to me that you were
saying not to worry about the results ahead of time.
I would think that if we build a pool first, we might not be able to get the
desirable contents in when done, and/or we might not be able to exclude from
it things which might be considerably undesirable, unless we do some
planning and have fairly specific ideas what is it what we want in there,
and
how and where to get it.
Steven Kaasgaard
: That's what I am trying to get - some education on the possibilities. Do you
: know which they are or do you know about some source that would outline at
: least some basic features of those options?
- Decentralism has been a main pillar in the Green Party's of the World
- reason d'etre. Try to check out current constitutions of "Greens"
- I affix quotations around the green because only true Greens include
- consensus decision making and decentralism.
- We had a constitution in place here in Ontario which was ignored
- by a few renegade "centralists"=traditional party structure advocates.
- With the help of the Ontario Commission on Elections and finances the
- party was dealt over to the invaders.I was removed as party secretary
- and the hierarchical version of the "Greens" is what remains here in
- Ontario,B.C. from what I understand Quebec Greens wouldn't go along
- and honorably self dissolved...
- More info than you probably need..? I'm considering either a return
- or the creation of what we have provincially now in Ontario..Green
- Alternative List which reincorporates the original Ontario Green Party
- Constitution...Something incidently the hierarchies that be seemed
- frightened of.... Film at eleven!
- and then again probably no film.Because no news is bad news
- and thats what wrong with this "democracy"
- Steven
--
Ivan Satori
Steven Kaasgaard wrote in message ...
>: That's what I am trying to get - some education on the possibilities. Do
you
>: know which they are or do you know about some source that would outline
at
>: least some basic features of those options?
>
>- Decentralism has been a main pillar in the Green Party's of the World
>- I affix quotations around the green because only true Greens include
>- consensus decision making and decentralism.
>- We had a constitution in place here in Ontario which was ignored
>- by a few renegade "centralists"=traditional party structure advocates.
>- With the help of the Ontario Commission on Elections and finances the
>- party was dealt over to the invaders.I was removed as party secretary
>- and the hierarchical version of the "Greens" is what remains here in
>- Ontario,B.C. from what I understand Quebec Greens wouldn't go along
>- and honorably self dissolved...
If I understand correctly, a party of fairly similarly minded, concerned,
engaged people got dissolved and overrun by a few renegades and some
manipulations on the part of the Commission. A sister party under similar
circumstances folded down. The principles didn't sustain the party when
faced
with dissent of a few and some financing issues. And you are saying that the
organizational principles by which these parties worked should be applied on
the whole society. Complex ecological issues, social issues, organized
crime, resistance of sizeable portion of the population, general population
being much more politically diverse than the membership of a political
party...
I am trying to figure out what is the source of your belief that principles
that failed to accomplish such a relatively simple task as keeping a group
of similarly minded people working together, that such principles are
suitable and viable approach to solving complex problems in situations of
vast differences of opinions, interests and inclinations.
>- More info than you probably need..? I'm considering either a return
>- or the creation of what we have provincially now in Ontario..Green
>- Alternative List which reincorporates the original Ontario Green Party
>- Constitution...Something incidently the hierarchies that be seemed
>- frightened of....
What seems to indicate the fear on the part of hierarchies?
>- Film at eleven!
>- and then again probably no film.Because no news is bad news
>- and thats what wrong with this "democracy"
I guess, this is a little too much coded message for me to follow.
zu...@my-dejanews.com
week. Perhaps it is just a consequence of the deceleration of life style/pace
one gets when one goes from a happening place like New York to Saskatoon.
Perhaps it is a consequence of the contrast between the above zero
temperatures and sunny skies NYC was experiencing and, and the below zero
temperatures and cloudy skies Saskatoon is experiencing. Perhaps it is a
consequence of again finding myself in the snow zone...
While all of the above are probably contributing factors... I think the
biggest factor is that I've returned to a province that is a complete
mess; a province where the smart people leave; where raw economic power
governs the day in a most arbitrary manner and imposes an apathy on the
citizenry and body politic that is stifling and oppressive; where a crappy
publication like the Saskatoon Star Phoenix succeeds because it has the assets
of a billion dollar company behind it but a superior publication that it owned
by ordinary middle-income people from the city goes into bankruptcy... because
it can't generate sufficient advertising revenue.
I guess I'll pop a few St. John's Wort tablets and rewrite my resume.
It seems like it is past time that Saskatchewan and I parted ways.
ewal...@brendarenfarm.com
Time)zu...@my-dejanews.com, wrote a message of sadness.
Jack, I agree that probably the smart ones left for greener
pastures. Hahaha But Your support of a paper(s) run by Paul
Martin with significant input from one Kevin Hursch leaves me
wondering if personal conflicts you've had with the SP have not
impeded your eyesight just a fraction. Hursch may no longer
write for the FP but he spent a good part of his post CKCK/CTV
employment - as well as during the time he spent there -
propagating the very reasons for the concern you expressed ". .
where raw economic power governs the day in a most arbitrary
manner. . ." I see little sense in choosing between two equally
rightwing evils. I may be wrong, but I think they were partners
earlier on.
I'm edwin
Ivan Satori
>: principles by which these
>: parties worked should be applied on
>: the whole society.
> bring us closer to democratic principles
> most citizens believe they have now... but don't!
There is nothing new in bringing up the shortcomings of real life democracy.
I would be more interested hearing about workable improvements.
> For instance wars would be obsolete since informed
> free willed people having experienced bottom up
> decision making would no longer tolerate "dictatorships"
> and besides such a population would be ungovernable!
Could you give me some details on the process of stopping a missile or a
tank by applying one's free will or how to make armed forces to care about
what people do or do not tolerate?
>: I am trying to figure out what is the source of your belief that
principles
>: that failed to accomplish such a relatively simple task as keeping a
group
>: of similarly minded people working together, that such principles are
>: suitable and viable approach to solving complex problems in situations of
>: vast differences of opinions, interests and inclinations.
> a great deal of well intentioned members of various "green"
> causes missed the real core of their cause and succumbed to
> silly traditional party structure... and basically took the
> (hijacked) the "magic bus" which was the Green Party
You don't need to repeat the story: an attempt to apply the principles that
you propose allowed well intentioned people to make a mistake or to allow a
mistake to happen.
What I am asking is what makes you believe that when applied on a scale of
the whole society, where a lot of less than well intentioned people come
into the picture, it would work?
> which
> very well could have made a difference in the place on earth
> where it would likely mean the most! In Fortress North America.
> Che Guevarra envied us because of the importance of our task
> here... next to the heart of the monster.
>
>: What seems to indicate the fear on the part of hierarchies?
>
> hierarchies are for citizens who leave the job
> of governing to others and complain but rely on one
> " leader" to make all of their choices and mistakes
> such a civilization survives on things like..
> "got the job because of whom you knew.. not what
> you knew...
> Hierarchies work if you are sheep herding..
> and after all isn't that what we have been reduced
> to by the corporate trans-national interests which
> run those we " think" we elect...
I guess, we have a real communication problem here. My question was not what
hierarchies do. My question was what are the symptoms or indicators that
lead you to believe that hierarchies are afraid of Ontario Green Party
Constitution.
Steven Kaasgaard
: <F7C0J7.2I3...@torfree.net> <36ce7...@news.cgocable.net>
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution:
Ivan Satori (sat...@tpn.com) wrote:
: And you are saying that the organizational
: principles by which these
: parties worked should be applied on
: the whole society.
Yes...a decentralized society would
bring us closer to democractic priciples
most citizens beleive they have now... but don't!
For instance wars would be obsolete since informed
free willed people having experienced bottem up
decision making would no longer tolerate "dictatorships"
and besides such a population would be ungovernable!
: I am trying to figure out what is the source of your belief that principles
: that failed to accomplish such a relatively simple task as keeping a group
: of similarly minded people working together, that such principles are
: suitable and viable approach to solving complex problems in situations of
: vast differences of opinions, interests and inclinations.
a great deal of well intentioned members of various "green"
causes missed the real core of their cause and succumbed to
silly traditional party structure... and basically took the
(hijacked) the "magic bus" which was the Green Party which
very well could have made a difference in the place on earth
where it would likely mean the most! In Fortress North America.
Che Guevarra envied us because of the importance of our task
here... next to the heart of the monster.
: What seems to indicate the fear on the part of hierarchies?
hierarchies are for citizens who leave the job
of governing to others and complain but rely on one
" leader" to make all of thir choices and mistakes
such a civilization survives on things like..
"got the job because of whom you knew.. not what
you knew...
Hierarchies work if you are sheep herding..
and after all isn't that what we have been reduced
to by the corporate trans-national interests which
run those we " think" we elect...
--
zu...@my-dejanews.com
ewal...@brendarenfarm.com wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:05:13 GMT, (Canadian Central Standard
> Time)zu...@my-dejanews.com, wrote a message of sadness.
>
> Jack, I agree that probably the smart ones left for greener
> pastures. Hahaha But Your support of a paper(s) run by Paul
> Martin with significant input from one Kevin Hursch leaves me
> wondering if personal conflicts you've had with the SP have not
> impeded your eyesight just a fraction.
Perhaps, but only a fraction. No one can seriously suggest that the SP is a
decent daily newspaper, which provides decent coverage of local events, news
and initiatives, nor should anyone treat the SP as a reliable source of
information.
> Hursch may no longer
> write for the FP but he spent a good part of his post CKCK/CTV
> employment - as well as during the time he spent there -
> propagating the very reasons for the concern you expressed ". .
Hursh also used to write for the SP...
> where raw economic power governs the day in a most arbitrary
> manner. . ." I see little sense in choosing between two equally
> rightwing evils. I may be wrong, but I think they were partners
> earlier on.
Warren Goulding was the editor of the paper, and Bill Pederson was one
of the publishers. Neither of them are as rightwing as the publisher and city
editors of the SP.
> I'm edwin
ewal...@brendarenfarm.com
Time)zu...@my-dejanews.com, wrote:
>Perhaps, but only a fraction. No one can seriously suggest that the SP is a
>decent daily newspaper, which provides decent coverage of local events, news
>and initiatives, nor should anyone treat the SP as a reliable source of
>information.
I agree. I was never impressed with the paper, refused to take
it even when I lived in Saskatoon.
>Hursh also used to write for the SP...
That seems like a good fit.
>Warren Goulding was the editor of the paper, and Bill Pederson was one
>of the publishers. Neither of them are as rightwing as the publisher and city
>editors of the SP.
But rightwing, right? Where does Martin come into it?
I really have no argument with you re the SP. And its really
beginning to look like I don't know what I am talking about in
regard to the FP.:(
I'm Edwin
Steven Kaasgaard
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Distribution:
Ivan Satori (sat...@tpn.com) wrote:
: Steven Kaasgaard wrote in message ...
: > most citizens believe they have now... but don't!
: There is nothing new in bringing up the shortcomings of real life democracy.
: I would be more interested hearing about workable improvements.
- a real workable improvement would be an empowerment of individuals
- via education, information on whats possible.
: Could you give me some details on the process of stopping a missile or a
: tank by applying one's free will or how to make armed forces to care about
: what people do or do not tolerate?
- an ungovernable population would not be attacked since
- eventual goals of militaries seem to be conquest of
- territories for resources ie. living space,water, valuable resources
- with a populus that was used to bottem up decision making you
- would never be able to corrupt the leadership since every individual
- from person to person would have equal power and access to the direction
- their society decided to make.
: mistake to happen.
: What I am asking is what makes you believe that when applied on a scale of
: the whole society, where a lot of less than well intentioned people come
: into the picture, it would work?
- education....access to genuine information ( not distraction )
- would make it infallible
- people are inherently good and given choices ie. good/bad
- if informed they generally tend to make the choice of good over evil
: I guess, we have a real communication problem here. My question was not what
: hierarchies do. My question was what are the symptoms or indicators that
: lead you to believe that hierarchies are afraid of Ontario Green Party
: Constitution.
- Kings and Queens need the people to look up to them
- The people need to learn they can do without them
--