Why doesn't Israel have the same right to self-defense as other nations?
simple.lan...@gmail.com
The world-wide protests against Israel's ground incursion into Gaza
are so full of hatred that they leave me with the terrible feeling
that these protests have little to do with the so-called
disproportionality of the Israeli response to Hamas rockets, or the
resulting civilian casualties.
My fear is that the rage we see in the protesters marching in the
streets is far more profound and dangerous than we would like to
believe. There are a great many people in the world who, even after
Auschwitz, just can't bear the Jewish state having the same rights
they so readily grant to other nations. These voices insist Israel
must take risks they would never dare ask of any other nation-state --
risks that threaten its very survival -- because they don't believe
Israel should exist in the first place.
Just look at the spate of attacks this week on Jews and Jewish
institutions around the world: a car ramming into a synagogue in
France; a Chabad menorah and Jewish-owned shops sprayed with swastikas
in Belgium; a banner at an Australian rally demanding "clean the earth
from dirty Zionists!"; demonstrators in the Netherlands chanting "Gas
the Jews"; and in Florida, protestors demanding Jews "Go back to the
ovens!"
How else can we explain the double-standard that is applied to the
Gaza conflict, if not for a more insidious bias against the Jewish
state?
At the U.N., no surprise, this double-standard is in full force. In
response to Israel's attack on Hamas, the Security Council immediately
pulled an all-night emergency meeting to consider yet another
resolution condemning Israel. Have there been any all-night Security
Council sessions held during the seven months when Hamas fired 3,000
rockets at half a million innocent civilians in southern Israel? You
can be certain that during those seven months, no midnight oil was
burning at the U.N. headquarters over resolutions condemning terrorist
organizations like Hamas. But put condemnation of Israel on the agenda
and, rain or shine, it's sure to be a full house.
Red Cross officials are all over the Gaza crisis, describing it as a
full-blown humanitarian nightmare. Where were they during the seven
months when tens of thousands of Israeli families could not sleep for
fear of a rocket attack? Where were their trauma experts to decry that
humanitarian crisis?
There have been hundreds of articles and reports written from the Erez
border crossing falsely accusing Israel of blocking humanitarian
supplies from reaching beleaguered Palestinians in Gaza. (In fact,
over 520 truck loads of humanitarian aid have been delivered through
Israeli crossings since the beginning of the Israeli counterattack.)
But how many news articles, NGO reports and special U.N. commissions
have investigated Hamas's policy of deliberately placing rocket
launchers near schools, mosques and homes in order to use innocent
Palestinians as human shields?
Many people ask why there are so few Israeli casualties in comparison
with the Palestinian death toll. It's because Israel's first priority
is the safety of its citizens, which is why there are shelters and
warning systems in Israeli towns. If Hamas can dig tunnels, it can
certainly build shelters. Instead, it prefers to use women and
children as human shields while its leaders rush into hiding.
And then there are the clarion calls for a cease-fire. These words,
which come so easily, have proven to be a recipe for disaster. Hamas
uses the cease-fire as a time-out to rearm and smuggle even more
deadly weapons so the next time, instead of hitting Sderot and
Ashkelon, they can target Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.
The pattern is always the same. Following a cease-fire brought on by
international pressure, there will be a call for a massive infusion of
funds to help Palestinians recover from the devastation of the Israeli
attack. The world will respond eagerly, handing over hundreds of
millions of dollars. To whom does this money go? To Hamas, the same
terrorist group that brought disaster to the Palestinians in the first
place.
The world seems to have forgotten that at the end of World War II,
President Harry Truman initiated the Marshall Plan, investing vast
sums to rebuild Germany. But he did so only with the clear
understanding that the money would build a new kind of Germany -- not
a Fourth Reich that would continue the policies of Adolf Hitler. Yet
that is precisely what the world will be doing if we once again
entrust funds to Hamas terrorists and their Iranian puppet masters.
In less than two weeks, Barack Obama will be sworn in as president of
the United States. But there is no "change we can believe in" in the
Middle East -- not where Israel is concerned. The double-standard
continuously applied to the Jewish state proves that, for much of the
world, the real lessons of World War II have yet to be learned.
invinoveritas
<simple.lan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:75a45bef-1f6d-457d...@r15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123137495711862883.html
>
> The world-wide protests against Israel's ground incursion into Gaza
> are so full of hatred that they leave me with the terrible feeling
Snip...
Yeah, Bloody Nazis!
It is time to purge world population of bloody Nazis!
Shall we kick a few nukes on a few mega cities as a pre-emptive strike?
Sooner, the better.
simple.lan...@gmail.com
source: http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=A62F2052-D925-4DC7-A564-8CAD1C939D9B
With the explosive current events in Gaza, the world needs to
understand the roots of this eternal conflict, otherwise we are all
kidding ourselves with hopes of peace.
For decades, Arabs had demanded that Israel end the "occupation," and
in 2005, Israel did so, disengaging unilaterally from Gaza. With their
demands met, there was no ‘cycle of violence’ to respond to, no
further justification for anything other than peace and prosperity.
With its central location and beautiful beaches on the East
Mediteranean, a peaceful and prosperous Gaza could have become another
Hong Kong; a shining trade and commerce center. But instead of
choosing peace, the Palestinians chose Islamic jihad. They rolled
their rocket launchers to the border and started bombing Israeli
civilians.
Understanding the reasons why the Palestinians chose violence over
peace requires connecting the dots from the behavior of Muslim states
back to the laws of Islam: Sharia. Mainstream Sharia books define
Jihad as: "to war against non-Muslims to establish the
religion." (Shafi’i Sharia o9.0). Jihad is not just the duty of the
individual Muslim, but it is also the main duty of the Muslim head of
State (the Calipha):
"A Muslim calipha is entrusted to take his people into war and command
offensive and aggressive Jihad. He must organize Jihad against any non-
Muslim government, which prevents Muslim da’wah (meaning preaching and
spreading Islam) from entering its land." (Shafii Law o25.0 to
o25.9).
Sharia law# o25.9 states:
"(When the caliph appoints a ruler on a region, his duty includes) if
the area has a border adjacent to enemy lands, (he will) undertake
Jihad against enemies, dividing the spoils of battle among combatants
and setting aside a fifth for deserving recipients."
Also:
"The Caliph makes war upon Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians until
they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax provided he has
first invited them to enter Islam or pay Jizya, the non-Muslim poll
tax, (in accordance with the word of Allah Most High Chapter 9 verse
29)."
Zia-Ul-Haq, former President of Pakistan, said "jihad in terms of
warfare is a collective responsibility of the Muslim Ummah."
One of Islam’s eminent 20th century scholars, Sheikh Maolana Maududi
said:
"Islam wishes to destroy all states and governments anywhere on the
face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and program of
Islam regardless of the country or the nation which rules it. The
purpose of Islam is to set up a state on the basis of its own ideology
and program … the objective of Islamic jihad is to eliminate the rule
of an un-Islamic system and establish instead an Islamic system of
state rule. Islam does not intend to confine this revolution to a
single state or a few countries; the aim of Islam is to bring about a
universal revolution."
Some people seem to think that such laws are just historical relics,
on the books but not in practice or in control of the minds of
Muslims. But that is the kind of denial we cannot afford; these laws
rule the hearts, minds and actions of a majority of Muslim individuals
and states around the world today. These scriptures are taught,
preached and promoted as the incontrovertible and eternal word of God
and funded by Saudi petrodollars throughout the world, including
Western nations such as the U.K. and the United States.
No Muslim leader can survive in a Muslim country if he announces the
end of Jihad against non-Muslim countries and states that all
references to Jihad in Islamic law do not apply today. Treating non-
Muslim neighboring countries and individual as equals, with respect
and in peace without trying to convert them to Islam, is simply
against Islamic Law.
Muslim leaders who dare to go against this theology are called
traitors and puppets of the ‘Great Satan’ West. That is a description
that no Muslim leader wants to be labeled with. When president Anwar
Sadat of Egypt signed the peace treaty with Israel in 1979, he told
his confidants that he knew he was signing his own death warrant. He
understood that under Sharia he must have permanent war with non-
Muslim Israel.
How can a Muslim leader or individual avoid the hundreds of Quran and
Hadith commandments to Muslims to kill Jews and Christians? Q 9:29:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah until they pay the Jizya with
willing submission and feel themselves subdued." Q 9:5: "Slay the
unbelievers wherever you find them". Q47.4: "When you encounter the
unbelievers, Strike off their heads."
A Muslim leader cannot face his devout Muslim subjects after making a
decision to engage in friendship and peace with Jews. Mosques all over
the Middle East, after all, recite Mohammed’s commandment to Muslims:
"The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight
the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and
tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah,
this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!" (Sahih Muslim 41:6985,
also Sahih Bukhari 4:52:177)
This Hadith, issued by Mohammad, makes a whole group of people illegal
to exist. It was issued in the 7th century, not after the 1948
creation of the State of Israel. It is not a response to modern-day
grievances; it is a permanent commandment.
Many Muslims claim that Arabs and Jews lived well together for many
years before 1948. But that claim ignores the fact that Jews had to
live as ‘dhimmies’ under Islamic Law and were never allowed to rule
themselves separate of the Islamic Sharia. When Muslims were weak they
often treated their dhimmi subjects well and ignored the commandments
to kill, subjugate and humiliate them. But Jew hatred is intrinsic to
Islamic scriptures that do not permit reformation under the penalty of
death.
This is the real basis of the Arab/Israeli conflict: not a conflict
over land or occupation, but a divine obligation to destroy
neighboring (non-Muslim) Israel, where Jews are no longer dhimmis but
are free to rule themselves. We cannot ignore the root of the problem
in Muslim scriptures. That is the true force behind the hate and
propaganda Jihadist machine against Jews in the Muslim world.
Some Muslims tell me that they don’t believe in Sharia and question
why am I making a big deal about it. My answer is that Sharia is the
law of the land in 54 Muslim countries and many Muslim groups are
demanding Sharia in the West. In 1990, 45 Muslim countries signed the
Cairo Human Rights Declaration which stated that Sharia has supremacy
over the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
The Muslim world must look within to its sacred laws, scriptures,
sermons, teaching and preaching, and reform the obstacles for peace
that have condemned them to a permanent state of jihad. The non-Muslim
world must have no illusions.
JSM
After Mohammed’s death, Abu Bakr, the second caliph, settled the
theological arguments of those who wished to leave Islam with the
political action of death by the sword. The jihad of Umar (the second
caliph, a pope-king) exploded into the world of the unbelievers. Jihad
destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon
it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the
victims of jihad. The history of political Islam is the destruction of
Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half
of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern
part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million
Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest.
Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million
Hindus killed.
The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander
the Great’s army in what is now Afghanistan. Jihad destroyed all of
Buddhism along the silk route. About 10 million Buddhists died. The
conquest of Buddhism is the practical result of pacifism.
Zoarasterianism was eliminated from Persia.
The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam.
In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the
last 1400 years of jihad.
Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years
for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which
are not taught in any school.
Multiculturalism is bankrupt against Islam’s demand for every
civilization to submit. The culture of tolerance collapses in the face
of the sacred intolerance of dualistic ethics. Intellectuals respond
by ignoring the failure.
The victims deny that the abuse took place: Our media never reports
the majority of jihad around the world. Our intellectuals don’t talk
about how all of the violence is connected to a political doctrine.
Islam declares that we are the enemies of Allah. If we do not learn
the political doctrine of Islam we will end up just like the first
victims of Islam—the tolerant, polytheist Arabs of Saudi Arabia who
became the Wahabbis (a very strict branch of Islam) of today, the most
intolerant culture on the face of the earth.
sir.jean-p...@neuf.fr
*>
*> Islam declares that we are the enemies of Allah. If we do not learn
*> the political doctrine of Islam we will end up just like the first
*> victims of Islam—the tolerant, polytheist Arabs of Saudi Arabia who
*> became the Wahabbis (a very strict branch of Islam) of today, the
most
*> intolerant culture on the face of the earth.
Thank you Sir, for that well informed return on History.
It is a fact that neither Christianity, Mazdeism, Boudhim which are
religion of tolerance are able to fend off the Islam Green Plague...
Only the original Pagan as the Celts, the Germans and the Francs would
have been able of such a feat if they had not succumbed to the
original Christian immoral propaganda !
In fact the situation is gravissime and personally I see no remedy in
the face of a Goyish Humanity interested only in Carrion feeding and
recycled sewage tap water drinking ...tramping underfoot all past
values of our Traditional Ancient Science
It is to be noted though that Mohammad was himself a Renegade since as
a Jew himself, he committed Perjury over his Jewish Faith and still
more a Traitor to his own by murdering the whole of his family
tribe
Sincerely
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
jgarbuz
Excellent and informative post. Thanks.
jgarbuz
Muhammad was never a Jew. Where did you get that nonsense? He
beheaded, robbed and ethnically cleansed the Jews out of Medina and
the Hijaz.
B J Foster
Careful. JPT has made many valuable discoveries, maybe this is one of them
peace.seeker.27
> Israel has done nothing to the Palestinians...
... except steal their homes, farms, businesses and property,
... except illegally prevent refugees from returning to their homes,
... except imprison them in preventive detention even if no crime has
been committed,
... except torture them, even if they were imprisoned in preventive
detention, where no crime was committed,
... except illegally use them as human shields,
... except demonish their homes without warning with civilians still
inside,
... except destroy their economy,
... except illegally target civilians in Gaza,
... except massacre them at Deir Yassin and (as your pal Benny Morris
has documented) over 20 Deir Yassin-type massacres in 1948 alone,
... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) rape them,
... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) mutilate their
dead bodies (source: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem,
1947-1949, page 113, by Benny Morris),
... except ethnically cleanse them, and
... except attack them whenever peace talks are in danger of breaking
out
Peter Webb
"peace.seeker.27" <vesuvian.d...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:34ab88b0-00fc-4812...@o40g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 8, 12:29 am, jgarbuz <jgar...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>> Israel has done nothing to the Palestinians...
>
> ... except steal their homes, farms, businesses and property,
What Palestinian businesses have been stolen by Israel ?
jgarbuz
wrote:
> On Jan 8, 12:29 am,jgarbuz<jgar...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
> > Israel has done nothing to the Palestinians...
>
> ... except steal their homes, farms, businesses and property,<
So they say.
> ... except illegally prevent refugees from returning to their homes,<
Their homes are in Arabia. They can return to homes of the Jews who
were in Medina and the Hijaz, or in Casablanca, or in Baghdad, or in
Cairo, etc. They have no home in the Jewish homeland.
> ... except imprison them in preventive detention even if no crime has
> been committed,<
Conspiracy to commit a terrorist crime is also a crime.
> ... except torture them, even if they were imprisoned in preventive
> detention, where no crime was committed,<
So you say. I know people who were tortured in Egypt in the 1950s and
forced to leave their home in Egypt.
> ... except illegally use them as human shields,<
Copy the enemy. If it's good for Arabs to use other Arabs as shields,
it;'s good for us to do so too.
> ... except demonish their homes without warning with civilians still
> inside,<
So you say with no proof.
> ... except destroy their economy,<
What economy?
> ... except illegally target civilians in Gaza,<
So you say.
> ... except massacre them at Deir Yassin and (as your pal Benny Morris
> has documented) over 20 Deir Yassin-type massacres in 1948 alone,<
So you say. There many massacres of Jews beforehand.
> ... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) rape them,
> ... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) mutilate their
> dead bodies (source: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem,
> 1947-1949, page 113, by Benny Morris),
> ... except ethnically cleanse them, and
> ... except attack them whenever peace talks are in danger of breaking
> out<
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. All the homes that
Jews were driven out of by Muslims are available to them.
JSM
wrote:
Carved on an Egyptian stone with hieroglyphic inscriptions on it that
shows the tribes of Israel were there in Canaan in 1212 BC. There is
a vast amount of evidence that the Israelite/Jewish presence in Israel/
Judea as far back as 925BC. This historical presence is verified in
the ancient records of the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian,
Greek, roman, Byzantine and Muslim empires. The Arab conquest of the
land did not begin until 638 AD. figure it out. The Israelis were
there 18 centuries before the Arabs. No wonder the Arabs are donating
millions of dollars to U.S. colleges for Middle Eastern schools of
study. They have a lot of hard historical evidence to rewrite in the
young minds of students.
There is mention of the Israelis in the Dead Sea Scrolls written by
the Maccabees who ruled an independent Judea.. In the thirty
centuries preceding the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948
there have only been two periods when there was an independent
internationally recognized state in the area that now comprises
Israel. Both of them were Jewish states.
peace.seeker.27
> On Jan 9, 9:26 am, "peace.seeker.27" ves....@lycos.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 8, 12:29 am,jgarbuz<jgar...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
> > > Israel has done nothing to the Palestinians...
>
> > ... except steal their homes, farms, businesses and property,<
>
> So they say.
All 750,000 of them in 1948, and hundreds
of thousands more in 1967.
Even Bengurion was disgusted by the mass
looting by Jews in Lydda in 1948 after the
civilian population was expelled at gunpoint.
At the beginning of the Lydda Death March,
not only did the goyim (Muslim and Christian)
civilians of Lydda lose their homes and property,
but IDF soldiers demanded all the cash and
jewelry on their person. If a woman did not
move fast enough removing her earrings, an IDF
soldier might rip them off her body. If a civilian
resisted handing over cash, a summary
execution might occur. One side had guns, the
side that surrendered did not. From its earliest
days, the IDF routinely committed war crimes.
During the Lydda Death March, hundreds died.
The three day forced march happened under a
hot summer sun, and Zionist soldiers prevented
the distribution of food and water. Dehydration
was a leading cause of death. The British
commander of the Jordanian armed forces said,
" ... no one will ever know how many children
died."
> > ... except illegally prevent refugees from returning to their homes,<
>
> Their homes are in Arabia.
WRONG!!!
When they were kicked out of their homes in
Lydda, their home was Lydda.
Since 1948, many survivors of the Lydda Death
March are living in refugee camps, that is, for
the last 60 years. Their hope is that Israel will
someday obey international law and permit them
back to the homes they owned until the Zionists
confiscated them, WITHOUT COMPENSATION.
Considering Israel's record of obeying international
law, this is not likely to ever happen. Also, the
Israelis hope to never pay compensation for the
property which was stolen by the Zionists. During
the 2000 Camp David negotiations, Israel
generously agreed to allow OTHER COUNTRIES
to compensate the Palestinians for the property
which the Zionists stole. Of course, none of this
compensation would come from Israel.
> > ... except imprison them in preventive detention even if no crime has
> > been committed,
>
> Conspiracy to commit a terrorist crime is also a crime.
I said "even if no crime has been committed." This
would include conspiracy, since, as you point out,
it is a crime.
> > ... except torture them, even if they were imprisoned in preventive
> > detention, where no crime was committed,
>
> So you say. I know people who were tortured in Egypt in the 1950s and
> forced to leave their home in Egypt.
You do not deny Israel's policy of torture every
possible Arab. And Egypt still tortures people.
Their services were used during the Bush
administration to torture prisoners of the
Americans who were delivered to Egypt in a
policy known as "extraordinary rendition."
> > ... except illegally use them as human shields,
>
> Copy the enemy. If it's good for Arabs to use other Arabs as shields,
> it;'s good for us to do so too.
You freely confess Zionist war crimes. Your
"purity of Jewish arms" is just propaganda
like so many other things.
> > ... except demolish their homes without warning with civilians still
> > inside,
>
> So you say with no proof.
An Israeli bulldozer driver has bragged about
doing this during the massacre at the Jenin
refugee camp. His comments have been published.
> > ... except destroy their economy,
>
> What economy?
Right. You destroyed it. It used to be things like
oranges, dates, olives, cut flowers, and stone from
quarries (which was the livelihood of Deir Yassin
residents, before they were massacred by Irgun and
the Stern Gang before the declaration of Israeli
independence).
> > ... except illegally target civilians in Gaza,
>
> So you say.
The United Nations and the Red Cross say you are
committing war crimes.
> > ... except massacre them at Deir Yassin and (as your pal Benny Morris
> > has documented) over 20 Deir Yassin-type massacres in 1948 alone,<
>
> So you say. There many massacres of Jews beforehand.
As your pal Benny Morris has documented,
there were over 20 Deir Yassin-type massacres
in 1948 alone, and you do not deny this.
> > ... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) rape them,
> > ... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) mutilate their
> > dead bodies (source: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem,
> > 1947-1949, page 113, by Benny Morris),
> > ... except ethnically cleanse them, and
> > ... except attack them whenever peace talks are in danger of breaking out
>
> What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
You do not deny Zionist terrorists raped and
mutilated their enemies.
Are you advocating that goyim rape Jewish
women? Are you advocating that goyim
mutilate dead Jews? Sick.
Jean Naimard
> From its earliest days, the IDF routinely committed war crimes.
Well, don’t you know? They suffered so much in the holocaust that they
are entitled to make others suffer, and the more so because they are the
chosen people.
JSM
wrote:
There is a word I see used a lot on the internet inaccurately however,
it is appropriate here.
You are a bigot. liar kinda goes along with that, I take it you got
you facts of "Bigots R US" WEB site
Reese
>
> Le Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:08:55 -0800, peace.seeker.27 a écrit :
>
> > From its earliest days, the IDF routinely committed war crimes.
>
> chosen people.
>
>
the idea of a giant cannon, Gerald Bull, was murdered by the Israeli's in
Switzerland. And all he wanted to do was to continue his research. He
wasn't a pro-Muslim fanatic, an anti-Semite. A hater of Israel.
The Mossad did it's job. And that's what the likes of William Stephenson
(Canadian co-creator of the OSS, later to become the CIA, and one of the
models for Ian Flemming's James Bond series of books) did as well.
People get murdered when the shit hits the fan. William Stephenson is a
hero. Not a murderer.
peace.seeker.27
So? Property rights are not superceded by claims made thousands of
years ago. If you have not been on your property for 1000 years, you
don't own it anymore.
Torah says: Thou shall not steal. Jews controlled 6% of Palestine
before declaring independence. After the war of Independence, Jews
controlled about 78% of Palestine, and today Jews control 100% of all
sovereign states in what was formerly known as British Mandate
Palestine.
Zionists did not compensate those Palestinian civilians whose houses,
businesses, farms, and property were stolen. How can Israel accept
reparations from Germany for the losses the Jews suffered under the
Nazis, while refusing to even recognize any Palestinian grievances?
It's the very definition of the word 'hypocrisy.'
Do the Canaanites have a stronger claim to Palestine because they
lived there before the Jews? Do the Serbs have a stronger claim to
Kosovo because they were there first?
peace.seeker.27
Name calling and ad hominem attacks
are used when facts and logic are
unavailable. If you had strong arguments,
there would be no need to use such
dishonest intellectual tactics. But
since you cannot refute anything I
wrote, insults are the only thing left.
kangarooistan
by much of Christian Europe against external and internal opponents.
Crusades were fought mainly against Muslims,
Clearly the only way to have peace in the MiddleEast will be when ALL
christians and jews are ALL forced to leave
Wars will continue until they are ALL gone for ALL time
Who will the next Yosef Saladeen be and when will he lead the Muslims
to victory , when is the only question as it must eventually happen
The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the
Holy Land from Muslim rule
In 1063, Pope Alexander II had given his blessing to Iberian
Christians in their wars against the Muslims, granting both a papal
standard (the vexillum sancti Petri) and an indulgence to those who
were killed in battle.
much controversy surrounds exactly what was promised by the popes of
the time. One theory was that one had to die fighting for Jerusalem
for the remission to apply
A Chinese scholar suggests that this and further Byzantine envoys in
1091 were pleas for China to aid in the fight against the Turks.[12]
The Crusades had far-reaching political, economic, and social impacts,
some of which have lasted into contemporary times.
.
A traditional numbering scheme for the crusades totals nine during the
11th to 13th centuries. This division is arbitrary and excludes many
important expeditions, among them those of the 14th, 15th, and 16th
centuries. In reality, the crusades continued until the end of the
17th century, the crusade of Lepanto occurring in 1571, that of
Hungary in 1664, and the crusade to Candia in 1669.[13] The Knights
Hospitaller continued to crusade in the Mediterranean Sea around Malta
until their defeat by Napoleon in 1798. There were frequent "minor"
Crusades throughout this period, not only in Palestine but also in the
Iberian Peninsula and central Europe, against Muslims and also
Christian heretics and personal enemies of the Papacy or other
powerful monarchs.
.
For the first decade, the Crusaders pursued a policy of terror against
Muslims that included mass executions, the throwing of severed heads
over besieged cities walls, exhibition and mutilation of naked
cadavers, and even cannibalism, as was recorded after the Siege of
Maarat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade#Siege_of_Jerusalem
The siege only came to end when the city was betrayed and the Franks
entered through the water-gate of the town causing the leader to flee.
Once inside the city, as was standard military practice at the time,
[15] the Franks then massacred the civilians, destroyed mosques and
pillaged the city.[16]
The Jews and Muslims fought together to defend Jerusalem against the
invading Franks. They were unsuccessful though and on 15 July 1099 the
crusaders entered the city.[16] Again, they proceeded to massacre the
remaining Jewish and Muslim civilians and pillaged or destroyed
mosques and the city itself.[17] One historian has written that the
"isolation, alienation and fear"[1] felt by the Franks so far from
home helps to explain the atrocities they committed, including the
cannibalism which was recorded after the Siege of Maarat in 1098.[18]
In 1187, Saladin, Sultan of Egypt, recaptured Jerusalem, following the
Battle of Hattin. After taking Jerusalem back from the Christians, the
Muslims spared civilians and for the most part left churches and
shrines untouched.[23]
Saladin is remembered respectfully in both European and Islamic
sources as a man who "always stuck to his promise and was loyal."[24]
After reaching port, Richard the Lionheart promised to leave
noncombatants unharmed if the city of Acre surrendered. The brutality
of an outnumbered army in a hostile land could be seen again when the
city surrendered and Richard proceeded to massacre everyone, despite
his earlier promise.[25] From the Frankish point of view, an oath made
to a non-Christian was no oath at all.
The leader of the French army, Stephen, led 30,000 children. The
leader of the German army, Nicholas, led 7,000 children. None of the
children actually reached the Holy Land: those who did not return home
or settle along the route to Jerusalem either died from shipwreck or
hunger, or were sold into slavery
In 1229 after failing to conquer Egypt, Frederick II of the Holy Roman
Empire, made a peace treaty with Al-Kamil, the ruler of Egypt. This
treaty allowed Christians to rule over most of Jerusalem, while the
Muslims were given control of the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aksa
mosque. The peace brought about by this treaty lasted for about ten
years.[26] Many of the Muslims though were not happy with Al-Kamil for
giving up control of Jerusalem and in 1244, following a siege, the
Muslims regained control of the city.[27]
The crusaders were drawn into battle at La Forbie in Gaza. The
crusader army and its Bedouin mercenaries were completely defeated
within forty-eight hours
.
In their later years, faced with the threat of the Egyptian Mamluks,
the Crusaders' hopes rested with a Franco-Mongol alliance. The
Ilkhanate's Mongols were thought to be sympathetic to Christianity,
and the Frankish princes were most effective in gathering their help,
engineering their invasions of the Middle East on several occasions.
.
Crusades were criticized by some from the time of their inception in
1095. For example, Roger Bacon felt the Crusades were not effective
because, "those who survive, together with their children, are more
and more embittered against the Christian faith."[31]
.
As recently as the 1950s, Sir Steven Runciman wrote a resounding
condemnation:
"High ideals were besmirched by cruelty and greed...the Holy War
was nothing more than a long act of intolerance in the name of God".
[31]
.
Western sources speak of both heroism, faith and honour (emphasized in
chivalric romance), but also of acts of brutality. Orthodox Christian
and Islamic chroniclers tell stories of barbarian savagery and
brutality, although it was not until 1899 that the first Islamic
history of the Crusades was written.
.
"For most Muslims the Crusades were something they won but just
another invasion among many in their history,"
.
In the minds of the Muslims the Crusades were Western invasions
motivated by the West’s greed and hatred for Islam, while the
Christian West thought they were reclaiming the Holy Land and stopping
the spread of Islam. For the West these wars were known as the
‘crusades’ which comes from the Latin word for cross.
.
The Crusades have made a lasting impact on the Islamic world,
especially in their perception of the West and of Christians. In fact
even today Muslims still consider the Crusades to be a symbol of
Western hostility toward Islam.[36] The Muslims were horrified by the
brutality of the Franks[citation needed] and how they so willingly
massacred civilians and broke promises. It did not help that the
Crusaders felt little to no remorse for what they did and when the
Muslims compared that to Saladin’s reputation of being a man of honor
they thought even less of the Franks.[37] The fact that the Franks
were motivated more by politics and greed[citation needed] than true
religious reason has led Muslims to feel that when Europe began to
colonize the East it was merely a continuation of the Crusades.
.
Along with trade, new scientific discoveries and inventions made their
way west. Arab advances (including the development of algebra, optics,
and refinement of engineering) made their way west and sped the course
of advancement in European universities that led to the Renaissance in
later centuries
.
This also aided in the beginning of the Renaissance in Italy, as
various Italian city-states from the very beginning had important and
profitable trading colonies in the crusader states, both in the Holy
Land and later in captured Byzantine territory.
Increased trade brought many things to Europeans that were once
unknown or extremely rare and costly. These goods included a variety
of spices, ivory, jade, diamonds, improved glass-manufacturing
techniques, early forms of gun powder, oranges, apples, and other
Asian crops, and many other products.
.
Muslims traditionally celebrate Saladin as a hero against the
Crusaders. In the 21st century, some in the Arab world, such as the
Arab independence movement and Pan-Islamism movement, continue to call
Western involvement in the Middle East a "crusade". The Crusades were
regarded by the Islamic world as cruel and savage onslaughts by
European Christians.
.
Though the Muslims in power at the time tried to protect the Jews in
The Holy Land, the Crusaders' atrocities against them in the German
and Hungarian towns, later also in those of France, England, and in
the massacres of Jews in Palestine and Syria have become a significant
part of the history of anti-Semitism,[52] although no Crusade was ever
declared against Jews. These attacks left behind for centuries strong
feelings of ill will on both sides. The social position of the Jews in
western Europe was distinctly worsened, and legal restrictions
increased during and after the Crusades..
.
A June 2, 1944 message to Allied troops before the Normandy landings,
began with General Eisenhower stating, "Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen
of the Allied Expeditionary Force! You are about to embark upon the
Great Crusade, toward which we have striven these many months." His
later bestselling memoir was entitled Crusade in Europe.
Ardent activists often referred to their causes as "crusades," as in
the "Crusade against Adult Illiteracy," or a "Crusade against
Littering." The term may also sarcastically or pejoratively
characterize the zealotry of agenda promoters, for example with the
moniker "Public Crusader" or the campaigns "Crusade against abortion,"
and the "Crusade for prayer in public schools."
In line with the traditional usage George W. Bush in 2002 described
his anti-terrorism campaign as a "crusade" but was compelled to
repudiate the term when it was pointed out that the word, because of
the historical events to which it referred, was regarded as highly
offensive by Muslims and Jews.
jgarbuz
wrote:
I was talking about their homeland. Jews also had homes in Arab
countries too.
> Since 1948, many survivors of the Lydda Death
> March are living in refugee camps, that is, for
> the last 60 years. <
That's because the Arab countries wouldn't give them citizenship or
right to work. Why didn't the Arab countries assimilate them the way
Jewish refugees, such as myself, were given full citizenship here in
America, Canada, Australia, Israel and some other countries? Why
didn't the 21 Arab countries absorb them? Same people. Same language.
Same religion. WHy didn't they do it?
>Their hope is that Israel will
> someday obey international law and permit them
> back to the homes they owned until the Zionists
> confiscated them, WITHOUT COMPENSATION.<
They abandoned their homes, for the most part, because they didn't
want to live peacefully in a Jewish state. They were a fifth column.
But 145,000 chose to remain peaceful, and today they represent 1.2
mllion Israeli Arabs with full rights as Israeli citizens.
> Considering Israel's record of obeying international
> law, this is not likely to ever happen.<
Israel obeys the same laws as everybody else.
> Also, the
> Israelis hope to never pay compensation for the
> property which was stolen by the Zionists. During
> the 2000 Camp David negotiations, Israel
> generously agreed to allow OTHER COUNTRIES
> to compensate the Palestinians for the property
> which the Zionists stole.<
You continue to fail to address the properties of 1 MILLION Jews
forced out of the Arab countries without compensation. How convenient
of you. Of course, robbing and ethnically cleansing out Jews is no big
deal, right? It's been going on for 2,000 years since our homeland was
taken from us without compensation.
> Of course, none of this
> compensation would come from Israel.<
Why should it?
...
> > What economy?
>
> Right. You destroyed it. It used to be things like
> oranges, dates, olives, cut flowers, and stone from
> quarries (which was the livelihood of Deir Yassin
> residents, before they were massacred by Irgun and
> the Stern Gang before the declaration of Israeli
> independence).<
I saw Arabs from Deir Yassin on tape testify that the Arabs fired on
the Irgun first.
> > > ... except illegally target civilians in Gaza,
>
> > So you say.
>
> The United Nations and the Red Cross say you are
> committing war crimes.<
The UN and Red Cross are all anti-Israel organizations. Only a few
years ago did the Red Cross recognize the Israeli Red Mogen David,
even though it recognize the Red Crescent decades ago. It was
practically forced to do so. The UN General Assembly has been a tool
of the 56 Muslim states for decades, most of which are not even
democracies and shouldn't be members in the first place.
> > > ... except massacre them at Deir Yassin and (as your pal Benny Morris
> > > has documented) over 20 Deir Yassin-type massacres in 1948 alone,<
>
> > So you say. There many massacres of Jews beforehand.
>
> As your pal Benny Morris has documented,
> there were over 20 Deir Yassin-type massacres
> in 1948 alone, and you do not deny this.<
I don't deny that the Irgun carried out reprisals for attacks on, and
massacres of Jews.
> > > ... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) rape them,
> > > ... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) mutilate their
> > > dead bodies (source: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem,
> > > 1947-1949, page 113, by Benny Morris),
> > > ... except ethnically cleanse them, and
> > > ... except attack them whenever peace talks are in danger of breaking out
>
> > What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
>
> You do not deny Zionist terrorists raped and
> mutilated their enemies.<
I deny mutilation COMPLETELY and totally. As for a rape here and
there, that sometimes happens in war. I deny it having been in any way
widespread. Just more blood libels spread by Islamofascist
antisemites.
> Are you advocating that goyim rape Jewish
> women?<
How can I deny it, when half the Jews are of non-Jewish blood.Of
course Jewish women been raped by Gentiles over the centuries.
Muhammad did it, so why shouldn't other Islamofascists do it?
> Are you advocating that goyim
> mutilate dead Jews? Sick.<
That happened a lot too. It's no big shocker to me.
Peter Webb
> before declaring independence. After the war of Independence, Jews
> controlled about 78% of Palestine, and today Jews control 100% of all
> sovereign states in what was formerly known as British Mandate
> Palestine.
>
Yes, but Jews still have less than 10% of the land held by Palestinians.
Indeed, as a percentage of the land held by Muslims in general in the ME,
Israel is minute - about 0.3% of the total.
> Zionists did not compensate those Palestinian civilians whose houses,
> businesses, farms, and property were stolen.
Well, yes, Israelis bought properties off the Palestinians. Property rights
were respected.
But why are you going on about the Palestinians in 1948, when there were
about the same number of Jews being kicked out of their homes in other
countries in the Middle East - and losing everything in the process - at the
same time? Or would the fact that the Muslims were actually doing what you
merely accuse Israel of doing at that time - kicking out the other group and
stealing their property -somehow make your argument obviously just racism?
> How can Israel accept
> reparations from Germany for the losses the Jews suffered under the
> Nazis, while refusing to even recognize any Palestinian grievances?
Israel has recognised a large number of Palestinian grievances. For example,
Gaza now has a very large measure of self-rule. If they would simply stop
attacking Israel, they could be a nation in 10 years.
> It's the very definition of the word 'hypocrisy.'
>
> Do the Canaanites have a stronger claim to Palestine because they
> lived there before the Jews? Do the Serbs have a stronger claim to
> Kosovo because they were there first?
No. The Jews legal claim to Israel isn't based upon the fact that they have
lived their longer. Obviously. As you point out, that's not the rule. Their
claim exists because the land was ceded to them by Britain and their
creation as a Jewish Homeland was endorsed by the UN.
Exactly the same reason that Timor is a country, just 50 years earlier.
HTH
jgarbuz
wrote:
..
>
> > There is mention of the Israelis in the Dead Sea Scrolls written by
> > the Maccabees who ruled an independent Judea.. In the thirty
> > centuries preceding the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948
> > there have only been two periods when there was an independent
> > internationally recognized state in the area that now comprises
> > Israel. Both of them were Jewish states.
>
> So? Property rights are not superceded by claims made thousands of
> years ago.<
And what makes you say that property rights were usurped? On what
legal basis do you make that claim?
> If you have not been on your property for 1000 years, you
> don't own it anymore.<
No one said anything about property. The issue is SOVEREIGNTY, not
property.
What do you know about "property rights" in "Palestine" anyway?
Anything at all?
Do you know the names of the six classes of land under Ottoman law?
Do you know the difference between mulk, miri, waqf, mawat, and
matruka lands? Do you know what the Tapu is, or was? Or the mushaa
system of land division? Somehow, I don't think so.
> Torah says: Thou shall not steal. Jews controlled 6% of Palestine
> before declaring independence. After the war of Independence, Jews
> controlled about 78% of Palestine, and today Jews control 100% of all
> sovereign states in what was formerly known as British Mandate
> Palestine.<
What percentage of land was cultivatable in "Palestine?" What
percentage were wastelands and state lands? Who holds the deed to the
Sinai and Judean deserts?
Have you ever read the League of Nations Mandate? Maybe you need to do
a little studying before you shoot your mouth off about things you
know NOTHING about?
> Zionists did not compensate those Palestinian civilians whose houses,
> businesses, farms, and property were stolen. How can Israel accept
> reparations from Germany for the losses the Jews suffered under the
> Nazis, while refusing to even recognize any Palestinian grievances?
> It's the very definition of the word 'hypocrisy.>
The Jews, except for a small few, got NO compensation for lost
properties in Europe during WWII. Germany's Restitution payments were
not for lost properties.
> Do the Canaanites have a stronger claim to Palestine because they
> lived there before the Jews? Do the Serbs have a stronger claim to
> Kosovo because they were there first?<
The Canaanites no longer exist. I do believe the Serbs have a stronger
claim to Kosovo, which was overrun by Albanian Muslims, although the
Albanians claim to be descendants of the ancient Illyrians.But I am
not an expert on the Balkans, though I probably know more about it
than you. What I do know, is that when Muzzies overrun a place and
produce massive litters of little Muzzies, they then believe they own
the place.
Bob
> source:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123137495711862883.html
>
> The world-wide protests against Israel's ground incursion into Gaza
> are so full of hatred that they leave me with the terrible feeling
> that these protests have little to do with the so-called
> disproportionality of the Israeli response to Hamas rockets, or the
> resulting civilian casualties.
>
> My fear is that the rage we see in the protesters marching in the
> streets is far more profound and dangerous than we would like to
> believe. There are a great many people in the world who, even after
> Auschwitz, just can't bear the Jewish state having the same rights
> they so readily grant to other nations. These voices insist Israel
> must take risks they would never dare ask of any other nation-state --
> risks that threaten its very survival -- because they don't believe
> Israel should exist in the first place.
There are those who think that Palestine shouldn't exist and they'll
do anything to prevent them from building their state, including
occupation.
> Just look at the spate of attacks this week on Jews and Jewish
> institutions around the world: a car ramming into a synagogue in
> France; a Chabad menorah and Jewish-owned shops sprayed with swastikas
> in Belgium; a banner at an Australian rally demanding "clean the earth
> from dirty Zionists!"; demonstrators in the Netherlands chanting "Gas
> the Jews"; and in Florida, protestors demanding Jews "Go back to the
> ovens!"
>
> How else can we explain the double-standard that is applied to the
> Gaza conflict, if not for a more insidious bias against the Jewish
> state?
How about a Palestinian state?
The people of the world need to do for Israel what they did for South
Africa. Let's face it, the plan is STILL to take the whole of
Palestine.
Bob
wrote:
The UN didn't endorse anything from Britain. If they had, the whole of
Palestine would have become an independant state of Palestine.
Peter Webb
> have
> lived their longer. Obviously. As you point out, that's not the rule.
> Their
> claim exists because the land was ceded to them by Britain and their
> creation as a Jewish Homeland was endorsed by the UN.
The UN didn't endorse anything from Britain. If they had, the whole of
Palestine would have become an independant state of Palestine.
******************
You are ignorant of the basic facts. The legal right to define the territory
was with the British; it was a "British Mandate". The UN endorsed the
partition when it accepted Israel as a member state in 1949.
johannes
simple.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123137495711862883.html
>
> The world-wide protests against Israel's ground incursion into Gaza
> are so full of hatred that they leave me with the terrible feeling
> that these protests have little to do with the so-called
> disproportionality of the Israeli response to Hamas rockets, or the
> resulting civilian casualties.
Israel is not being attacked by a country, but a group of terrorist
are firing rockets. Terrorist move around; suppose that they had
stayed e.g. in Tel Aviv. Would IDF then start bombing the address plus
also neighbouring houses, schools, women, children, police, ambulances?
B J Foster
> Jean Naimard <jean.naim...@VOS-CLAQUES-gmail.com> wrote:
>> Le Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:08:55 -0800, peace.seeker.27 a écrit :
>>
>>> From its earliest days, the IDF routinely committed war crimes.
>> Well, don?t you know? They suffered so much in the holocaust that they
>> are entitled to make others suffer, and the more so because they are the
>> chosen people.
>>
>>
> Every one has committed war crimes. The Canadian scientist who cooked up
> the idea of a giant cannon, Gerald Bull, was murdered by the Israeli's in
> Switzerland. And all he wanted to do was to continue his research. He
> wasn't a pro-Muslim fanatic, an anti-Semite. A hater of Israel.
You have evidence of this?
Government Shill #2
wrote:
>Reese wrote:
>> Jean Naimard <jean.naim...@VOS-CLAQUES-gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Le Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:08:55 -0800, peace.seeker.27 a écrit :
>>>
>>>> From its earliest days, the IDF routinely committed war crimes.
>>> Well, don?t you know? They suffered so much in the holocaust that they
>>> are entitled to make others suffer, and the more so because they are the
>>> chosen people.
>>>
>>>
>> Every one has committed war crimes. The Canadian scientist who cooked up
>> the idea of a giant cannon, Gerald Bull, was murdered by the Israeli's in
>> Switzerland. And all he wanted to do was to continue his research. He
>> wasn't a pro-Muslim fanatic, an anti-Semite. A hater of Israel.
>
>You have evidence of this?
Can't even seem to get the country right.
Gerald Bull, 62, Shot in Belgium; Scientist Who Violated Arms Law
By JOSEPH P. FRIED
Published: March 25, 1990
LEAD: Gerald V. Bull, a Canadian-born rocket scientist and international
arms consultant who ran afoul of a weapons embargo against South Africa,
was shot to death on Thursday night at his apartment in a suburb of
Brussels, the authorities said. He was 62 years old.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFDB1F3DF936A15750C0A966958260
--
Shill #2
I believe in evidence. I believe in observation, measurement, and
reasoning, confirmed by independent observers. I'll believe anything, no
matter how wild and ridiculous, if there is evidence for it. The wilder and
more ridiculous something is, however, the firmer and more solid the
evidence will have to be.
Isaac Asimov - The Roving Mind (1983)
Peter Webb
"johannes" <jo...@siz32457757efitter.com> wrote in message
news:49687A57...@siz32457757efitter.com...
No. They would send in the Police to arrest them for murder.
Why don't Hamas do the same?
The Doctor
You really are a troll. You should be wathced as an enemy of the state.
--
Member - Liberal International
This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising!
Birthdate: 29 Jan 1969 Redhill Surrey England
johannes
Here is your answer:
"The first wave of bombings, which targeted police stations across Gaza,
is a key case in question - particularly the strike that killed at least
40 trainees on parade."
jgarbuz
How about it? What about it? Where was it in ancient history. Can you
name a single Palestinian king or queen in all of recorded history?
The Palestinians had as many kings and queens in "Palestine" as the
Jews had in Brooklyn.
There is, and never was any "plan." You know NOTHING about ZIonist
Jewish history.
And the "people of the world" did nothing about South Africa. It was
many Jews, like the recently departed Suzman, that worked tirelessly
inside South Africa against apartheid, that did more to bring down
apartheid than the rest of the world put together.
jgarbuz
> The Crusades were a series of religion-driven military campaigns waged
> by much of Christian Europe against external and internal opponents.
> Crusades were fought mainly against Muslims,<
Probably as many, if not more Jews were killed by the Crusaders than
Musims, so I am not spokesman for the Crusades. But, the fact is that
Islam came out of Arabia in the 7th century, and attacked and defeated
the Christian Byzantine empire, and conquered "Palestine," Egypt an
Christian North Africa, as well as Zoroastrian Persia. Islam attacked
first the Jews of Medina, to rob them of their wealth and push them
out of Arabia, and then attacked Christendom. That is the plan of the
Islamofascists today, to first destroy Israel, and then continue to
attack on the rest of world.
> Clearly the only way to have peace in the MiddleEast will be when ALL
> christians and jews are ALL forced to leave.<
The best way to have peace is for Israel, Christians, and Hindus to
destroy Islam. Islam is an intolerant imperialist force that must
either be reformed or destroyed.
>
> Wars will continue until they are ALL gone for ALL time
>
> Who will the next Yosef Saladeen be and when will he lead the Muslims
> to victory , when is the only question as it must eventually happen.<
Probably not another Kurd like the first Salah al Din. Today, the
Kurds want to be freed from Arab control.
Topaz
By Stuart Littlewood
31 December 2008
Stuart Littlewood shows how Israel's public relations strategy frames
and defines the situation in Israel's own terms regardless of the
truth and, using advanced propaganda skills and the elaborate Israel
lobby network, it seeks to persuade Western politicians and media to
accept Israel's version of events.
While the murderous assault on Gaza continues, I notice there's a
briefing document on the website of the Israeli Embassy in London
which has a lie in every line. The West's mainstream media repeat
them, and even the most senior TV and radio interviewers don't bother
to challenge them.
The document is a transcript of Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni's
statement to the Israeli press dated 27 December 2008 - a day that
will live in infamy. It is a perfect example of the falsehoods used to
dupe not only us Westerners but Israel's own people. The statement
shows how the regime's view of itself is constructed on a web of
dishonesty and self-delusion.
For example:
* "Israeli citizens have been under the threat of daily attack from
Gaza for years."
Palestinians have been under harsh Israeli occupation for 60 years.
* "Only this week hundreds of missiles and mortars shells were fired
at Israeli civilian communities."
Only one in 500 Qassam rockets causes a fatality. How many
thousands of Israeli bombs, missiles, rockets, grenades and
tank-shells have been blasted into the crowded city and towns of the
Gaza Strip by Israel's high-tech weaponry??
* "Until now we have shown restraint. But today there is no other
option than a military operation."
The only legitimate option for Israel is to end the occupation
and withdraw behind its 1967 border, as required under international
law and UN resolutions. Israel has been killing Palestinians at the
rate of 8 to 1 since 2000, and children at the rate of nearly 12 to 1
(B'Tselem figures). This is somebody's idea of restraint?
* "We need to protect our citizens from attack through a military
response against the terror infrastructure in Gaza."
Self-defence is not a right exclusive to Israel. Palestinians
have an equal right to protect their citizens from the terror tactics
of Israel.
* "Israel left Gaza in order to create an opportunity for peace."
Israel never left Gaza. It still occupies Gaza's airspace and
coastal waters and controls all entrances and exits.
* "In return, the Hamas terror organization took control of Gaza
and is using its citizens as cover while it deliberately targets
Israeli communities and denies any chance for peace."
Hamas was voted into power as the legitimate government of
Palestine. Israel chose not to accept the people's choice, which
amounted to a denial of their human rights, and immediately set about
obliterating it.
* "We have tried everything to reach calm without using force. We
agreed to a truce through Egypt that was violated by Hamas, which
continued to target Israel, hold Gilad Shalit and build up its arms."
Try talking. The Israelis' ongoing siege and economic blockade,
begun shortly after Hamas was elected early in 2006, was never going
to generate calm. And why is Shalit considered more important than the
9,000 Palestinians abducted and held prisoner by Israel? As soon as a
Hamas government was formed Israeli troops arrested eight Hamas
ministers and 20 other parliamentarians, making the work of government
impossible.
* "Israel continues to act to prevent humanitarian crisis and to
minimize harm to Palestinian civilians."
Every agency operating in Gaza has warned of the deepening
humanitarian crisis and protested about the starvation and suffering,
especially of children many of whom show evidence of stunted growth.
* "The responsibility for harm to civilians lies with Hamas."
Not according to the Fourth Geneva Convention.
* "Hamas is a terrorist organization, supported by Iran, that
does not represent the legitimate national interests of the
Palestinian people but a radical Islamist agenda that seeks to deny
peace for the peoples of this region."
Hamas was the popular choice of Palestinians at the last
election. It is entitled under international law to take up arms
against an illegal occupier and invader. If it is supported by Iran,
so what? Israel receives mega-support from the US. When it comes to
terror, it is Israel's conduct which fits the US definition of
terrorism so perfectly
- see Bush's Executive Order 13224, Section 3.
* "While confronting Hamas, Israel continues to believe in the
two-state solution and remains committed to negotiations with the
legitimate Palestinian Authority in the context of the peace process,
launched at Annapolis."
Israel is busy establishing irreversible facts on the ground
that make a viable Palestinian state impossible. As everyone knows,
the regime has reneged on the peace process and carries on building
illegal settlements and the illegal Wall, and demolishing Palestinian
homes. Months ago Hamas accepted a Palestinian state based on
internationally recognized (pre-1967) borders, in accordance with UN
resolutions, with full sovereignty and its capital in Jerusalem, but
this has been ignored. Hamas also offered a 10-year truce, also
ignored. Earlier, Yasser Arafat and the Palestine Liberation
Organization recognized the State of Israel in the Oslo agreement but
what good did it do? Today's US-backed, Fatah-controlled Palestinian
Authority is not representative of the Palestinian people.
* "Israel expects the support and understanding of the
international community, as it confronts terror, and advances the
interest of all those who wish the forces of peace and co existence to
determine the agenda of this region."
Israel, next to the US, is the biggest purveyor of terror in the
region and only advances its own interests. It may get the support of
Israel lobby stooges in other Western governments but is rapidly
earning the contempt of everybody else.
From a statement dated 22 December 2008:
* "Hamas, backed by Iran, has regularly stated its desire to see
the complete destruction of Israel."
Israel is itself a leading destroyer and currently engaged in
trying to wipe out Hamas and the Gazans. Iran's President Ahmadinajad
quoted the late Ayatollah Khomeini as saying that "this regime
occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" - fair comment
considering that Jerusalem, with Bethlehem, was designated an
"international city" under the UN Partition Plan. Israeli propaganda
twisted the Iranian's words to read "Israel must be wiped off the
map". Zionist sources and the manifestos of Israeli political parties
have made it clear for a long time that Israel plans to wipe Palestine
off the map, and every act and lie is directed towards that end.
* "Our fight is not with the people of Gaza; it is with the
extremists of Hamas."
Then why does the Israeli navy harass and fire on peaceable
Gazan fishermen who are well within their own territorial waters? Why
does Israel prevent Palestinian students from taking up places at
foreign universities and block hospital spares, medicines, foodstuffs
and foreign medics from entering Gaza? Why has the Israeli navy just
rammed a mercy vessel in international waters taking doctors and
medicines to Gaza? Latest air strikes have hit the Islamic University
and the Ministry of Education. These are direct attacks on Gazan civil
society and its infrastructure.
* "Hamas started this conflict, and it bears responsibility for
any harm to civilians on either side."
The conflict, started by Jewish terrorists, has been going on
for 60 years, decades before Hamas came into being.
* "Israel's only responsibility is to protect Israeli citizens."
As the occupying power Israel has a duty to see that the people
of the occupied territories come to no harm.
* "Just as Israel seeks to defend its civilian population, Hamas
seeks to kill them."
This reads far better the other way round: "Just as Hamas seeks
to defend its civilian population, Israel seeks to kill them."
* "Rocket attacks have continued for years and are now a daily
occurrence. How long does the international community expect Israel
will wait before defending itself against them?"
The rocket attacks will end when Israel ends the occupation and
stops terrorizing its neighbours.
* "In the south of Israel, Israeli citizens live with air raid
sirens sounding every day - sometimes every hour. Their situation is
intolerable."
Not half as intolerable as it is for the Gazans, who live in
constant fear of air raids and re-invasion and are constantly under
surveillance by armed drones which can fire missiles under computer
control from an armchair in Israeli headquarters.
* "For years, the international community has turned a blind eye
to this onslaught. Only when Israel seeks to stop the rockets do they
take notice."
For years the international community has turned a blind eye to
Israel's violations of international law and human rights, which is
why the problem remains unsolved.
* "Hamas is not only the enemy of Israel - it is the enemy of
every Palestinian who believes in peace."
Israelis just can't come to terms with the Palestinians'
democratic choice and are bent on obliterating it.
* "It is Hamas' attacks - not Israel's reactions - that destroy
every opportunity we have for peace."
The world has managed to work out by now that Israel doesn't
want peace until it has stolen all the land and water it needs to
expand its racist state into a "Greater Israel". It is well on the way
to achieving this and won't be thwarted.
* "Palestinian militants targeted by Israel are not just the
enemies of the Israeli people; they are criminals under international
law, and enemies of peace."
Israel is in no position to preach international law.
* "What is collective punishment? 'Collective punishment' is a
city - schools, hospitals, homes - civilians being bombarded every
single day by rockets and mortars."
Collective punishment is keeping a whole population bottled up
under siege and blocking supplies and exports, smashing their
infrastructure, wrecking their economy and starving their children.
Trying to equate Sderot with what's happening in the Gaza Strip is
idiotic.
* "Today's Middle East is divided between extremists and
pragmatists. Hamas, backed by Iran, belongs to the extremists, who
must be defeated for the sake of the future of the Middle East...
Israel's primary goal is peace."
Israel's primary goal is the expansion of Israel by making the
occupation of the West Bank permanent and bringing the Gazans to their
knees.
The core issue in this struggle is the illegality of Israel's brutal
occupation. Israel goes to great lengths to avoid and suppress all
mention of it and play-acts the pathetic victim. As the official
statements (above) show, the strategy is to frame and define the
situation in Israel's own terms regardless of the truth. It uses
advanced propaganda skills, and the elaborate Israel lobby network, to
persuade Western politicians and media to accept Israel's version of
events (and even use Israel's biased language) and not question its
motives.
In political public relations terms it works wonderfully well. The
loony leaders of my own government happily spread the poison and don't
seem interested in halting Israeli aggression and the vaporizing,
dismembering and crushing of Gaza's population. In human PR terms it
is a disaster.
I have been listening to the BBC's senior interviewers these last few
days. None has had the gumption to ask Israeli spokesmen the only
question that matters - the "killer" question on which hangs the key
to peace: WHEN IS ISRAEL GOING TO END ITS OCCUPATION AND RETURN TO THE
PALESTINIANS THEIR LANDS AND FREEDOM?
Stuart Littlewood is author of the book Radio Free Palestine, which
tells the plight of the Palestinians under occupation. For further
information please visit www.radiofreepalestine.co.uk
http://www.ihr.org/ http://www.natvan.com
frea...@googlemail.com
As if THAT is the important thing here. The inhabitants of Palestine,
whether muslim, jewish or christian should have simply been given an
independant state of Palestine. That's what the British intended to
do, but zionist terrorism put a stop to that.
Get lost.
> You know NOTHING about ZIonist
> Jewish history.
> And the "people of the world" did nothing about South Africa. It was
> many Jews, like the recently departed Suzman, that worked tirelessly
> inside South Africa against apartheid, that did more to bring down
> apartheid than the rest of the world put together.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Lou Ravi
>> Torah says: Thou shall not steal. Jews controlled 6% of Palestine
>> before declaring independence. After the war of Independence, Jews
>> controlled about 78% of Palestine, and today Jews control 100% of all
>> sovereign states in what was formerly known as British Mandate
>> Palestine.
>>
>
> Yes, but Jews still have less than 10% of the land held by
> Palestinians.
> Indeed, as a percentage of the land held by Muslims in general in the
> ME, Israel is minute - about 0.3% of the total.
And what has that got to do with anything?
Lou Ravi
> Carved on an Egyptian stone with hieroglyphic inscriptions on it that
> shows the tribes of Israel were there in Canaan in 1212 BC. There is
> a vast amount of evidence that the Israelite/Jewish presence in
> Israel/ Judea as far back as 925BC. This historical presence is
> verified in the ancient records of the Egyptian, Assyrian,
> Babylonian, Persian, Greek, roman, Byzantine and Muslim empires. The
> Arab conquest of the land did not begin until 638 AD.
No that was Muslims old chap, not at all the same thing. The Arabs have
been there at least as long as the Jews and, in fact, there were and
still are Arab Jews.
From Wikipedia
"The first written attestation of the ethnonym "Arab" occurs in an
Assyrian inscription of 853 BCE, where Shalmaneser III lists a King
Gindibu of mātu arbāi (Arab land) as among the people he defeated at the
Battle of Karkar.
Lou Ravi
> No. The Jews legal claim to Israel isn't based upon the fact that
> they have lived their longer. Obviously. As you point out, that's not
> the rule. Their claim exists because the land was ceded to them by
> Britain and their creation as a Jewish Homeland was endorsed by the
> UN.
Erm no, Resolution 180 (for it is he) called for two states with very
strict rules and regulations, includng a complete customs union. The
Zionists muscled their way in (using terrorism) before any of that could
come into force (not that it would have done as the Palestinians were
against it). So as well as no moral basis for their presence, there is
no legal one either, except post-facto.
Lou Ravi
> The people of the world need to do for Israel what they did for South
> Africa. Let's face it, the plan is STILL to take the whole of
> Palestine.
Quite. Lebensraum.
Boed...@isp.com
The fact that the So. African jew was instrumental in bringing down
the Government of
So. Africa is no secret. They did not do it out of sympathy for the
blacks, but because
anarchism and communism is in their blood and they have been doing the
same thing
for centuries. They used their wealth and influence to install a
communist government in So. Africa and we see the result today -
anarchy and murder of whites and the AIDS plague.
The U.S. particularly Los Angeles is full of former So. African jews.
They are very wealthy.
Same old story, "Mission Accomplished" now let's get the hell out of
here. The jew in
So. Africa also became very wealthy on black labour just as they do
everywhere else
including the former Confederacy of the U.S. The jew is afraid of
the blacks and they fled
from black neigbourhoods where they owned all of the businessess, when
the blacks rioted and burnt them out. All of their liquor stores
are now Korean owned. How many blacks do you suppose live in jew
neighbourhoods in the U.S.? They do what they always do when non-
whites move in - they flee. Harlem?
Once all jew, now all black.
Peter Webb
"Lou Ravi" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
news:4968e75e$1$9392$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
It shows how misleading (and incorrect) the post I was responding to was.
Jews have less than 10% of the area occupied by Palestinians (not 78% or
100% as the poster said), and only about 0.3% of the Middle East.
Peter Webb
Evidence?
Peter Webb
Can't you read?
I didn't even mention Resolution 180.
So why are you going on about it?
Carl
> On Jan 8, 12:29 am, jgarbuz <jgar...@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>> Israel has done nothing to the Palestinians...
>
> ... except steal their homes, farms, businesses and property,
> been committed,
> ... except torture them, even if they were imprisoned in preventive
> detention, where no crime was committed,
> ... except illegally use them as human shields,
> ... except demonish their homes without warning with civilians still
> inside,
> ... except destroy their economy,
> ... except illegally target civilians in Gaza,
> has documented) over 20 Deir Yassin-type massacres in 1948 alone,
> ... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) mutilate their
> dead bodies (source: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem,
> 1947-1949, page 113, by Benny Morris),
> ... except ethnically cleanse them, and
> ... except attack them whenever peace talks are in danger of breaking
> out
>
some reason, such as that they had homes, farms, businesses, property, and
an economy. As far as I have ever seen, looking back at 1948, there is
little evidence of such ownership/economy. It would be particularly hard to
defend your position since there never existed an Arab "Palestinian"
government or infrastructure and I doubt you can find any records of such
ownerships. The land the Jews moved on to was generally barren and
considered to be worthless. Much of it was actually sold to them by
land-baron Arabs who cared nothing for their so-called "Palestinian"
brethren.
If I'm correct, then the wars (beginning with the 1948 one) and refugee
problem which followed was driven by Arab anti-semitism, fanatical religious
dogma, and lack of tolerance for a non-Muslim peoples to live amongst them.
Therefore the rest of your list regarding the apparent "ethnic cleansing",
"targeting civilians in Gaza", and "attacking them" become arguable in fact
and have grown out of the fault of the Arab nations and their policies and
not that of the Israelis or Jews.
Carl
> On Jan 9, 6:26 am, "peace.seeker.27" <vesuvian.doppelga...@lycos.com>
> wrote:
>> On Jan 8, 12:29 am, jgarbuz <jgar...@netzero.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Israel has done nothing to the Palestinians...
>>
>> ... except steal their homes, farms, businesses and property,
>> ... except illegally prevent refugees from returning to their homes,
>> ... except imprison them in preventive detention even if no crime has
>> been committed,
>> ... except torture them, even if they were imprisoned in preventive
>> detention, where no crime was committed,
>> ... except illegally use them as human shields,
>> ... except demonish their homes without warning with civilians still
>> inside,
>> ... except destroy their economy,
>> ... except illegally target civilians in Gaza,
>> ... except massacre them at Deir Yassin and (as your pal Benny Morris
>> has documented) over 20 Deir Yassin-type massacres in 1948 alone,
>> ... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) rape them,
>> ... except (as your pal Benny Morris has documented) mutilate their
>> dead bodies (source: The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem,
>> 1947-1949, page 113, by Benny Morris),
>> ... except ethnically cleanse them, and
>> ... except attack them whenever peace talks are in danger of breaking
>> out
>
> shows the tribes of Israel were there in Canaan in 1212 BC. There is
> a vast amount of evidence that the Israelite/Jewish presence in
> Israel/ Judea as far back as 925BC. This historical presence is
> verified in the ancient records of the Egyptian, Assyrian,
> Babylonian, Persian, Greek, roman, Byzantine and Muslim empires. The
> The Israelis were there 18 centuries before the Arabs. No wonder the
> Arabs are donating millions of dollars to U.S. colleges for Middle
> Eastern schools of study. They have a lot of hard historical
> evidence to rewrite in the young minds of students.
>
> There is mention of the Israelis in the Dead Sea Scrolls written by
> the Maccabees who ruled an independent Judea.. In the thirty
> centuries preceding the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948
> there have only been two periods when there was an independent
> internationally recognized state in the area that now comprises
> Israel. Both of them were Jewish states.
>
hatred and bigotry.
Carl
land historically "belongs to". If you trace the roots of history, there
were no "Palestinians" in that history, and few Arabs in general. And there
is no such thing as a "Palestinian people". It is a political contrivance.
They were Arab, just like the other Arabs in the 10 million square miles
surrounding "Palestine".
On the other hand, I can agree with you (and have stated so before) that, if
you're going to recognize a "Palestinian People", then it must include Jews
and Christians as well, not just Muslims, since they had at least as
consistent of a presence there, if not more. It is, however, the Arab
contingency that rejects that idea. Just witness East Jerusalem prior to
1967: closed by the Arab inhabitants to all non-Muslims and only reopened to
the public by the Jews.
The English, to my knowledge, did create Jordan after WWI, which was
composed predominantly of "Palestinians" and was carved out of the area
known as "Palestine". It is much larger than Israel. And Jews were not part
of that plan. Why not? So perhaps "the zionist terrorists" thought they
should have a little chunk of land for Jews, since Jews were excluded from
all other Arab lands. You seem to be willing to overlook that little thing.
But I guess they weren't. Neither am I.
Carl
Lou Ravi
You said that the creation of Israel was endorsed by the UN, it wasn't
until later, after they had taken over by force. The Zionists claim that
Resolution 180 is their legal basis for Israel's existence, it is not.
Nor was the land 'ceded to them by Britain' as you claim.
Lou Ravi
Just have a look at the number of colonies set up in the west bank and
that continue to be set up. If that isn't a search for 'lebensraum' I
don't know what is.
Ariadne
> >news:4968e75e$2$9392$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
> >> Peter Webb wrote:
>
> >>> No. The Jews legal claim to Israel isn't based upon the fact that
> >>> they have lived their longer. Obviously. As you point out, that's
> >>> not the rule. Their claim exists because the land was ceded to them
> >>> by Britain and their creation as a Jewish Homeland was endorsed by
> >>> the UN.
>
> >> Erm no, Resolution 180 (for it is he) called for two states with very
> >> strict rules and regulations, includng a complete customs union. The
> >> Zionists muscled their way in (using terrorism) before any of that
> >> could come into force (not that it would have done as the
> >> Palestinians were against it). So as well as no moral basis for
> >> their presence, there is no legal one either, except post-facto.
>
> > Can't you read?
>
> > I didn't even mention Resolution 180.
>
> > So why are you going on about it?
>
> You said that the creation of Israel was endorsed by the UN, it wasn't
> until later, after they had taken over by force. The Zionists claim that
> Resolution 180
You can't even get the number right.
Give up the meths. Your brain's dead.
saila
> >> Bob wrote:
> >>> The people of the world need to do for Israel what they did for
> >>> South Africa. Let's face it, the plan is STILL to take the whole of
> >>> Palestine.
> > "Lou Ravi" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
> >> Quite. Lebensraum.
> Peter Webb wrote:
> > Evidence?
"Lou Ravi" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote
> Just have a look at the number of colonies set up in the west bank and
> that continue to be set up. If that isn't a search for 'lebensraum' I
> don't know what is.
Tell me that Israelis aren't using the same tactics of their reviled past enemies - the
Nazis.
Peter Webb
> Peter Webb wrote:
>> "Lou Ravi" <j.mu...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message
>> news:4968e75e$2$9392$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
>>> Peter Webb wrote:
>>>
>>>> No. The Jews legal claim to Israel isn't based upon the fact that
>>>> they have lived their longer. Obviously. As you point out, that's
>>>> not the rule. Their claim exists because the land was ceded to them
>>>> by Britain and their creation as a Jewish Homeland was endorsed by
>>>> the UN.
>>>
>>> Erm no, Resolution 180 (for it is he) called for two states with very
>>> strict rules and regulations, includng a complete customs union. The
>>> Zionists muscled their way in (using terrorism) before any of that
>>> could come into force (not that it would have done as the
>>> Palestinians were against it). So as well as no moral basis for
>>> their presence, there is no legal one either, except post-facto.
>>>
>>
>> Can't you read?
>>
>> I didn't even mention Resolution 180.
>>
>> So why are you going on about it?
>
> You said that the creation of Israel was endorsed by the UN, it wasn't
> until later, after they had taken over by force.
Yes.
> The Zionists claim that Resolution 180 is their legal basis for Israel's
> existence, it is not.
I cannot comment on what other people say, unless I see it for myself.
> Nor was the land 'ceded to them by Britain' as you claim.
Britain decided the borders of Israel, and Western border of the Palestinian
State (Jordan). Not the UN.
Lou Ravi
No I don't think they are. That the Zionist are disgusting arseholes,
defintely, and while I'd agree that their behaviour is unacceptable it
is not the systematic extermination of a people on the grounds of
goodness knows what lunatic philosphy. Equating Zionists and Nazis does
nothing for the anti-Zionist cause, on the contrary it just adds grist
to the mill of pro-Zionists.
Lou Ravi
>> Nor was the land 'ceded to them by Britain' as you claim.
>
> Britain decided the borders of Israel, and Western border of the
> Palestinian State (Jordan). Not the UN.
The UK did indeed set the potential borders, quite a while before the
foundation of Israel I believe, however it wasn't Britain that ceded the
land to Israel it was the UN. Or, strictly speaking, no one as the
Isrealis took the land before the British mandate had ended.
Lou Ravi
Well done, you've actually got something right for once. Reolution 181
of course.
> Give up the meths. Your brain's dead.
Keep trying dear, the more crap you post the more tired you'll become so
that's fine by me. It also gives me the occasion to kick your stupid
Zionist arse which, I assure you, is an absolute pleasure.
SaPeIsMa
news:Dyval.30435$pe.2...@newsfe13.iad...
And if someone told you. Would you believe it ?
That's just like asking us to believe that you are somewhat intelligent and
not a jew-hater
We wouldn't believe you if you claimed it.
SaPeIsMa
Particularly since it has nothing to do with fact and is only a stupid
appeal to emotional response
But hey, considering that the Hamas supporters of terrorism have not other
means of claiming a superior position, they have no choice but to use that
losers' tactic
Scotius
>On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:45:15 -0800 (PST),
>simple.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123137495711862883.html
>>
>>The world-wide protests against Israel's ground incursion into Gaza
>>are so full of hatred that they leave me with the terrible feeling
>>that these protests have little to do with the so-called
>>disproportionality of the Israeli response to Hamas rockets, or the
>>resulting civilian casualties.
They have nothing to do with it. Those are just BS excuses.
The fact is, for Hamas and others like it, launching rockets and then
running and hiding behind civilians is par for the course. They hope
to use the media-made-up "world opinion" to get Israel to not respond;
ridiculous.
>>
>>My fear is that the rage we see in the protesters marching in the
>>streets is far more profound and dangerous than we would like to
>>believe. There are a great many people in the world who, even after
>>Auschwitz, just can't bear the Jewish state having the same rights
>>they so readily grant to other nations. These voices insist Israel
>>must take risks they would never dare ask of any other nation-state --
>>risks that threaten its very survival -- because they don't believe
>>Israel should exist in the first place.
>>
>>Just look at the spate of attacks this week on Jews and Jewish
>>institutions around the world: a car ramming into a synagogue in
>>France; a Chabad menorah and Jewish-owned shops sprayed with swastikas
>>in Belgium; a banner at an Australian rally demanding "clean the earth
>>from dirty Zionists!"; demonstrators in the Netherlands chanting "Gas
>>the Jews"; and in Florida, protestors demanding Jews "Go back to the
>>ovens!"
>>
>>How else can we explain the double-standard that is applied to the
>>Gaza conflict, if not for a more insidious bias against the Jewish
>>state?
>>
>>At the U.N., no surprise, this double-standard is in full force. In
>>response to Israel's attack on Hamas, the Security Council immediately
>>pulled an all-night emergency meeting to consider yet another
>>resolution condemning Israel. Have there been any all-night Security
>>Council sessions held during the seven months when Hamas fired 3,000
>>rockets at half a million innocent civilians in southern Israel? You
>>can be certain that during those seven months, no midnight oil was