Double Glazing Maze
Alan Baker
valued for, but I am about to go for double glazing.
Any good or bad experiences of installers in the Cambridge area?
Email me directly if you think your reply will wind the group up or your
reply may lead you to be sued for defamation.
qa1
Zenith - cold called 7.00pm Sunday evening by freezing kid. Representative
turned up at 8.00pm and did not leave until midnight. First quote was
outrageous, then reduced by two thirds to a value that roughly matched
other companies' quotes. Whole evening was scripted, including phone
calls to boss to plead for a 'special reduction' which was made in return
for us having a Zenith windows sign displayed in front of the house for
a number of weeks. High pressure sales technique which we 'fell for' (put
down a deposit as we knew it was fully refundable and gave us a chance
to 'keep' the special offer while we got comparitive quotes). On asking for
the deposit back (Zenith were not as competitive as they claimed), had to
talk to the salesman for 45 minutes before he would put the phone down.
A bad experience.
Anglia Windows. 1 hr/ 1.5hr discussion. Fairly straightforward with claims
that other makes were deficient in various ways.
Milton Windows. Local firm selling Rehau windows (PVC stuff sold through
independants across the country). Most straightforward of all, but not sure
about technology - not because their demo window seemed poor, but
because there was no way to check the quality - a problem with all three
companies.
Comparing the technology is VERY hard. All three claimed good resistance
to weathering, yellowing and cracking, whilst bad mouthing the other's
products for not being good. Zenith claimed superior security, which Anglia
said is based on ten year old technology. Rehau seemed sensible in this
respect (windows are fitted from the inside), but Anglia said that thieves
just push the window inwards instead. Anglia had the most Kite marks,
despite Zenith's high claims. I would have liked to have gone with Rehau,
but they had disappointingly few kite marks. Others to check would be
BAC and Everest, who are the other two big players in the market.
Which did we choose in the end..? None, we're going for a new kitchen
instead.
Anyone have any good/bad experience in kitchen suppliers? We've looked
at Schmidt (through the place near the Grafton centre) which looks like
cleverly
designed units (which we need for a very small kitchen), but the shop
suggested
very high prices.
A.T.
Alan Baker wrote:
--
The art of producing a good sig is knowing what you want to umm..
These are not the opinions of anyone I know.
The reply address may be spam-blocked. Remove a word to reply.
Alistair S Ross
>
> I know this will be emotive contentious and everything else this group is
> valued for, but I am about to go for double glazing.
>
> Any good or bad experiences of installers in the Cambridge area?
>
> Email me directly if you think your reply will wind the group up or your
> reply may lead you to be sued for defamation.
Try the Norfolk Window and Door Company in Dereham ( 01362 695372 ) and
fit them yourself. I takes a weekend to fit two window units and can be
done by any competent DIYer. I learnt a lot and am willing to pass on my
experiences to anyone who is interested.
thanks....ttfn....Alistair
--
: Alistair S Ross
: Room W7b, Instrument Shop, C.U.E.D.
: phone - UK(01223)332853
: email - a...@eng.cam.ac.uk
Vicky Larmour
>Anyone have any good/bad experience in kitchen suppliers?
Condessa Kitchens did to us what Zenith Windows did to you, with the
exception that they claimed that the deposit wasn't refundable (which I,
backed up by the CAB, knew it was!) until we initiated Small Claims Court
proceedings at which point a cheque suddenly dropped through our letterbox.
Vicky
--
vicky.larmour[at]camcon.co.uk All opinions mine.
"What?" said Piglet, with a jump. And then, to show that
he hadn't been frightened, he jumped up and down once or
twice in an exercising sort of way. -- Winnie-the-Pooh
Stephen Early
>[snip horror story]
Ditto.
Obviously they don't change their script very often.
Steve Early
qa1
the
Kitchen industry and a few others as well. The idea is that they like you and
are on
your side against the boss, who might be convinced to make an exception. The
best
bit was that when I asked for my money back the salesman claimed that he
couldn't
understand it - had I set out to try and rip _him_ off, and make _him_ look
stupid.
If it hadn't been for the fact that this was the week before Christmas and I was
very
busy, I would have spent a happy few days giving them as much trouble as I
could.
I only found out that the script was standard last month when I saw a
documentary
on TV where a kitchen salesman used that same script (very obligingly) for a
hidden
camera. I was retrospectively very angry.
A.T.
P.S. It did ocur to me that I should have taped his conversations on the phone
with
his boss, who was probably asking 'Does he look like a big sucker?' as he begged
for a special discount on my behalf.
Stephen Early wrote:
--
Vicky Larmour
qa1 <q...@e-14.word.com> wrote:
>P.S. It did ocur to me that I should have taped his conversations on the phone
>with his boss, who was probably asking 'Does he look like a big sucker?' as he
>begged for a special discount on my behalf.
That would have been quite amusing, wouldn't it? :-)
It is very annoying the way they all use the same "tactics". I seem to find
myself saying more and more these days, "If only there was a company that
sold the same products/services as X but without the pushy salesman, I would
probably even be willing to pay more money than I would pay X for the same
thing!"
David Johnston
Vicky Larmour wrote in message <7cjh79$67a$1...@andromeda.camcon.co.uk>...
>
>It is very annoying the way they all use the same "tactics". I seem to find
>myself saying more and more these days, "If only there was a company that
>sold the same products/services as X but without the pushy salesman, I
would
>probably even be willing to pay more money than I would pay X for the same
>thing!"
>
Would you like to buy a used 233Mhz PC from me? Only £2000. No deposit, not
obligation to buy.
DJ
Vicky Larmour
"David Johnston" <d...@daveland.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Would you like to buy a used 233Mhz PC from me? Only £2000. No deposit, not
>obligation to buy.
LOL :-)
No, but thanks anyway!
Roland Perry
>Anyone have any good/bad experience in kitchen suppliers?
After exhausting every one we could find in the area, we went for Magnet
(which surprised me) and an independent fitter. But they are only good
value for money at their 50%-off "special" offer prices. They also gave
us money back on various trimming parts that it turned out we didn't
need - but in a sense that's a bad sign because arguably they over-
supplied us, and their CAD system has very obvious bugs that might have
contributed to it). I wonder if their in-house fitters would have told
us to ask for the refund?
--
Roland Perry
Roger Hume
> I know this will be emotive contentious and everything else this group is
> valued for, but I am about to go for double glazing.
> Any good or bad experiences of installers in the Cambridge area?
> Email me directly if you think your reply will wind the group up or your
> reply may lead you to be sued for defamation.
There is absolutely no need to have salesman call at all.
Simply measure the windows and give the size to the company, preferably
with a sketch of how you want them. The number of opening windows has a
significant affect on the price and the amount of light. Opening windows
have quite a large frame.
Look at similar properties and glean ideas from them.
We chose (white covered) aluminium for the patio to avoid the very large
central bar in the all plastic type.
They can then do a survey after the price is agreed to confirm the price.
I definately would not have a salesman call again they can be VERY
persistent.
It was a few years (5+) ago Asset did our patio doors and Allied the
windows.
All companies use sub contractors so it very much depends who you get on
the day.
I must say the guarantee (10 year) service form Allied is excellent, we
recently asked them to do a small adjustment on a window that had dropped
slightly. They had warned us they would drop as they were quite large top
hinged.
No charge, done within a week of reporting it.
I must say we have never had any regrets.
Paul & Margaret Hardy
Vicky Larmour wrote in message <7cjh79$67a$1...@andromeda.camcon.co.uk>...
>It is very annoying the way they all use the same "tactics". I seem to find
>myself saying more and more these days, "If only there was a company that
>sold the same products/services as X but without the pushy salesman, I
would
>probably even be willing to pay more money than I would pay X for the same
>thing!"
I can strongly recommend the local double glazing company Polarglaze at
Cottenham (01954 251290). They were about half the price of Anglian for the
same job. They were not at all pushy, and the guy who came to sell knew his
stuff about the pros and cons. He said that they do most of their trade
through recommendation. Installation was prompt, efficient and clean.
The only thing I regret is that we got strongly patterned glass in the
bathroom. In combination with the thicker frames of uPVC, it cuts down the
light somewhat.
Paul Hardy (at home) pa...@hardy.demon.co.uk
Alastair France
> exception that they claimed that the deposit wasn't refundable (which I,
> backed up by the CAB, knew it was!) until we initiated Small Claims Court
> proceedings at which point a cheque suddenly dropped through our letterbox.
>
> Vicky
>
Condessa then went bust.
Actually they fitted a kitchen for us, and it was GOOD (but not cheap).
--
Alastair France
afr...@stet-os.demon.co.uk
Alastair France
<URL:mailto:vicky....@camcon.co.nospam.uk> wrote:
> In article <36ED41C9...@e-14.word.com>,
> qa1 <q...@e-14.word.com> wrote:
>
> >P.S. It did ocur to me that I should have taped his conversations on the phone
> >with his boss, who was probably asking 'Does he look like a big sucker?' as he
> >begged for a special discount on my behalf.
>
> That would have been quite amusing, wouldn't it? :-)
>
> myself saying more and more these days, "If only there was a company that
> sold the same products/services as X but without the pushy salesman, I would
> probably even be willing to pay more money than I would pay X for the same
> thing!"
>
>
Zenith are particularly painful on the double glazing side. When we had them
installed I took great pleasure in phoning their manager and telling them
that their product might have been technically superior but that the hard
sell had cost them the sale.
--
Alastair France
afr...@stet-os.demon.co.uk
Alastair France
>
> P.S. It did ocur to me that I should have taped his conversations on the phone
> with
> his boss, who was probably asking 'Does he look like a big sucker?' as he begged
>
I thought the boss normally said
"at the third stroke, the time sponsored by Accurist will be (far too
late)..."
--
Alastair France
afr...@stet-os.demon.co.uk
Sapient Fridge
>Would you like to buy a used 233Mhz PC from me? Only £2000. No deposit, not
>obligation to buy.
Do you have any good Eskimos for sale?
--
sapient...@sengir.demon.co.uk * ICQ #17887309 * Save the net *
Grok: http://www.cauce.org http://www.spamfree.org * kill a spammer *
Find: http://www.blighty.com/spam/spade.html * today *
Kill: http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/spam.html *
qa1
Vicky Larmour wrote:
> In article <36ED41C9...@e-14.word.com>,
> qa1 <q...@e-14.word.com> wrote:
>
> >P.S. It did ocur to me that I should have taped his conversations on the phone
> >with his boss, who was probably asking 'Does he look like a big sucker?' as he
> >begged for a special discount on my behalf.
>
> That would have been quite amusing, wouldn't it? :-)
>
> It is very annoying the way they all use the same "tactics". I seem to find
> myself saying more and more these days, "If only there was a company that
> sold the same products/services as X but without the pushy salesman, I would
> probably even be willing to pay more money than I would pay X for the same
> thing!"
Such is the wonder of the internet. I get treated badly, and can state exactlythat
to an audience of.. oooh..at least three people. If on the other hand I
get good service I won't hesitate to pass the information on. There's no
way of measuring the effect of cam.misc on local business, but any effect
is good by my book. It's a rather nerdy revenge, but I enjoyed that rant. :-)
A.T.
Alan Baker
is best to be avoided!
I haven't got the time for DIY, so it will be a 'professinal' job.
I'll let the group know who I speak to and the outcome.
Alan Baker wrote in message <7cj4vg$sgn$1...@engweb.simoco.com>...
Ted
>Anyone have any good/bad experience in kitchen suppliers?
I e-mailed a suggestion but it bounced. Could you supply a valid
address. Thanks.
--
E. J. J. <mailto:t...@chy-an-piran.demon.co.uk>
<http://www.chy-an-piran.demon.co.uk/>
Tim Ward
Kitchen Consultants, East Road. They've always done a good job for me (after
only having to nag once to get the making-good completed). I've seen many
far worse installations; and they've been around for a long time.
--
Tim Ward - Brett Ward Limited
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/The_Monster_Family
Marcus Streets
Seriously their quality is top notch, but you pay for what you get as
well as getting what you paid for.
You could safely dance on our kitchen cabinets, if the roof were high
enough.
Tom Vivian
> >>Anyone have any good/bad experience in kitchen suppliers?
>
> Kitchen Consultants, East Road. They've always done a good job for me (after
> only having to nag once to get the making-good completed). I've seen many
> far worse installations; and they've been around for a long time.
>
> --
> Tim Ward - Brett Ward Limited
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/The_Monster_Family
I had a bad experience with Kirkplan kitchens. We were fortunate
that we didn't get completely ripped off. Basically they lied to us
about many things such as the skill level of the subcontracted
fitters. Kirkplan said they would be cabinet makers but they turned
out to be relatively unskilled fitters. Where Kirkplan and other
similar outfits really get you is that they insist on full payment
on delivery of the parts and materials. This makes arguing very
hard. Luckily we didn't take up the finance deal they pushed with
lots of misleading hype. It would have been _much_ more expensive
than a bank loan with an horrendous early payback penalty (ie all of
the interest you would have paid anyway). You may not think you are
gullible but these people are very skilled.
Next time I will certainly find a local trader with a good
reputation to maintain.
Tom Vivian.
Marcus Streets
Tom Vivian wrote:
>
> I had a bad experience with Kirkplan kitchens.
<snip>
> Where Kirkplan and other
> similar outfits really get you is that they insist on full payment
> on delivery of the parts and materials.
>
> Tom Vivian.
Kitchen Consultants asked for full payment of the cost of the cabinets
etc. up front. In fact as some were being made to order there was a
deposit.
The argument is that these become fixtures and fitting and therefore
yours as soon as they are attached.
However, payment for fitting was after the fact. Therefore if we had had
an argument about fitting we would have had a bargaining lever.
Marcus
Alastair France
<URL:mailto:t...@virata.com> wrote:
> "Tim Ward" <The_Monst...@compuserve.com> writes:
>
> > >>Anyone have any good/bad experience in kitchen suppliers?
> >
> > Kitchen Consultants, East Road. They've always done a good job for me (after
> > only having to nag once to get the making-good completed). I've seen many
> > far worse installations; and they've been around for a long time.
> >
> > --
> > Tim Ward - Brett Ward Limited
> > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/The_Monster_Family
>
> I had a bad experience with Kirkplan kitchens. We were fortunate
> that we didn't get completely ripped off. Basically they lied to us
> about many things such as the skill level of the subcontracted
> fitters. Kirkplan said they would be cabinet makers but they turned
> similar outfits really get you is that they insist on full payment
> hard. Luckily we didn't take up the finance deal they pushed with
> lots of misleading hype. It would have been _much_ more expensive
> than a bank loan with an horrendous early payback penalty (ie all of
> the interest you would have paid anyway). You may not think you are
> gullible but these people are very skilled.
>
> Next time I will certainly find a local trader with a good
> reputation to maintain.
>
> Tom Vivian.
>
The one advantage of using a finance company, which might make it worthwhile
if you can get out of the redemption clauses, is that the consumer credit
act then applies, so if it's crap and the firm goes bust you can take it up
with the credit supplier. This also applies if you buy with a credit card.
--
Alastair France
afr...@stet-os.demon.co.uk
Richard Stimson
Tom Vivian <t...@virata.com> wrote in article
<jor9qnu...@pangolin.atml.co.uk>...
>
> I had a bad experience with Kirkplan kitchens.
> similar outfits really get you is that they insist on full payment
> on delivery of the parts and materials. This makes arguing very
> hard. Luckily we didn't take up the finance deal they pushed with
I think you are entitled to retain 10% of the total sum until the
installation is complete.
If it's not enshrined in law no reputable company would refuse such a
clause.
Any that did should be given the elbow pronto.
Nick Wagg
> >Anyone have any good/bad experience in kitchen suppliers?
You could also try KitchenSmiths at Bar Hill.
I know that they supply quite expensive kitchens but I can't comment
on the quality of their work. My wife works there and she would not
want to work for a bunch of cowboys.
--
Nick Wagg <>< (mailto:ni...@lsl.co.uk) Laser-Scan Ltd,
Software Project Manager Science Park, Milton Rd,
Tel: +44(0)1223 420414 (ext 213) Cambridge, CB4 0FY, UK.
Fax: +44(0)1223 420044 http://www.laser-scan.com/
Opinions expressed are attributable to me, not my employer.
Tim Ward
>Seriously their quality is top notch, but you pay for what you get as
>well as getting what you paid for.
>You could safely dance on our kitchen cabinets, if the roof were high
>enough.
Yes, that's right.
I have two modes of buying things:
(1) buy something cheap and nasty with an expectation of having to throw it
away and replace it sooner or later
(2) buy something done properly with an expectation of never having to worry
about it again.
I expect option (2) to cost more.
[The "more than one kitchen" was one in my house, paid for by the overtime
earnt working on the QL, which gives you some idea of how long ago it was,
and still a perfectly good kitchen, plus some repairs/replacements to a
grotty cheapo job in a property we let out.]
Tim Ward
>etc. up front. In fact as some were being made to order there was a
>deposit.
>The argument is that these become fixtures and fitting and therefore
>yours as soon as they are attached.
>However, payment for fitting was after the fact. Therefore if we had had
>an argument about fitting we would have had a bargaining lever.
Yes, he's quite keen on getting paid on time. (But then so I am, so I
appreciate the business logic.) But if you don't pay for the fitting until
the snags have been sorted he'll maybe come round and tidy up the loose ends
himself!
Alan Baker
I spoke to Anglian, Admiral, BAC and Polarglaze - all based on
recommendations. I cancelled the visit by Zenith as I couldn't face the
probably sales tactics.
All four companies produce the 'best and most secure' product!
Anglian offered 40% discount for the sign and photo in the magazine, and
'no-further reduction'. The 40% dependent upon me signing then. This was
then held open for seven days when I refused to sign. A call from his
manager next day also knocked a further 900 quid off to help me make up my
mind, and I am sure more would be available.
The other three produced fixed quotes with no offers, and were all cheaper
than Anglian.
To be honest, nobody was very pushy and the experiences weren't too painful.
I now have a weekend making my mind up. All the products were similar, but
with 'important differences'. Quotes ranged from ukp3200 up to ukp4700.
I'll let you know who I go for and the final installation outcome. Probably
between Admiral and Polarglaze.
Thanks to everybody for thier input.
Paul Menage
<alan....@europe.simoco.com> writes:
>I said I would followup my original post.
>
>I spoke to Anglian, Admiral, BAC and Polarglaze - all based on
>recommendations. I cancelled the visit by Zenith as I couldn't face
>the probably sales tactics.
>
Did you tell them why you cancelled?
Paul
--
Paul Menage Magdalene College, Cambridge Paul....@cl.cam.ac.uk
Atlas Room, University of Cambridge Computer Laboratory: (01223) 331859
Room 2 Wentworth House, 2 Chesterton Road, Cambridge: (01223) 506010
Ross Galvin
Alan Baker wrote:
>
> I said I would followup my original post.
<snip>
> To be honest, nobody was very pushy and the experiences weren't too painful.
> I now have a weekend making my mind up. All the products were similar, but
> with 'important differences'. Quotes ranged from ukp3200 up to ukp4700.
How many windows/type of house are these quotes for Alan?
Ross
--
Email : Ross....@cambridge.simoco.com
"When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look
so long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not
see the ones which open for us." --Alexander Graham Bell
Alan Baker
>>
>>recommendations. I cancelled the visit by Zenith as I couldn't face
>>the probably sales tactics.
>>
>
>Did you tell them why you cancelled?
No I chickened out and told them I had changed my mind about double glazing
:-(
>
>Paul
Alan Baker
Ross Galvin wrote in message <36F23B36...@cambridge.simoco.com>...
>Hi
>
>
>How many windows/type of house are these quotes for Alan?
>
>Ross
>--
Seven and two doors for 1980s mid-terrace house. All single opening windows
in brown PVC (about 20% premium on white - which I still haven't really
decided about yet as all my neighbours have already gone white, from the
original brown!)
Tim Ward
channels built in to the window frames, so we don't have to have tacky white
plastic boxes superglued to the window frames with tacky-looking wires
everywhere?
Keith Choda
you in chat.
Al Grant
> Beware of the person who phones you to ask if "Mr Anderson" is there. It's a double glazing company trying to involve
> you in chat.
Isn't "chat" a Far Eastern euphemism for sex?
Jon S Green
Or a synonym for mildly narcotic chewable leaves...
Jon
--
Work: jonsg(at)harlequin_co_uk <<CHANGE '_'s http://www.harlequin.co.uk/
Private: jonsg(at)pobox_com <<TO '.'s! http://www.pobox.com/~jonsg/
Ask for PGP key <*> Opinions my own ***Del. '.nojunk' from reply addr***
No junk email! http://www.pobox.com/~jonsg/junkmail.html ICQ 4500882
Ross Galvin
>
> > Beware of the person who phones you to ask if "Mr Anderson" is there. It's a double glazing company trying to involve
> > you in chat.
Various salemen were roaming the Whitehill estate last night touting for
Zenith windows - he wanted to come back and explain how Zenith may give
huge discounts or even install the windows for free if they could use
the house in their ads. After reading this thread I quickly sent him on
his way.
George Hawes
>Al Grant <ag...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Keith Choda wrote:
>>
>> > Beware of the person who phones you to ask if "Mr Anderson" is there. It's a double glazing company trying to involve
>> > you in chat.
>>
>> Isn't "chat" a Far Eastern euphemism for sex?
>Or a synonym for mildly narcotic chewable leaves...
Surely that's middle eastern? And I'm not entirely sure about
the 'mildly' . . .
G.
Gropius Riftwynde
<ross....@cambridge.simoco.com> wrote:
>Various salemen were roaming the Whitehill estate last night touting for
>Zenith windows - he wanted to come back and explain how Zenith may give
>huge discounts or even install the windows for free if they could use
>the house in their ads.
I got a call from Bowater the other day, asking if I wanted free
windows. I told him I already had as many windows as I need. "But
they are free!" he said. But I don't need any more! "Just a minute,
I'll put you on to my supervisor." Hangup.
I read somewhere the other day that the best plan is to say something
like: "It's you again. Look, we took care of Harry and then we dumped
the body. End of story. We told you before, we don't wanna know nuthin
more, okay?. Now quit calling us or Mr. Bellini will get very upset."
GR
Al Grant
> I read somewhere the other day that the best plan is to say something
> like: "It's you again. Look, we took care of Harry and then we dumped
> the body. End of story. We told you before, we don't wanna know nuthin
> more, okay?. Now quit calling us or Mr. Bellini will get very upset."
Well that's one way to get them to tick the "occupied by students,
don't call again" box.
Paul Oldham
Riftwynde) growled:
> On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:03:26 +0000, Ross Galvin
> <ross....@cambridge.simoco.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Various salemen were roaming the Whitehill estate last night touting for
> >Zenith windows - he wanted to come back and explain how Zenith may give
> >huge discounts or even install the windows for free if they could use
> >the house in their ads.
>
> I read somewhere the other day that the best plan is to say something
> like: "It's you again. Look, we took care of Harry and then we dumped
> the body. End of story. We told you before, we don't wanna know nuthin
> more, okay?. Now quit calling us or Mr. Bellini will get very upset."
:-)
I'm told the best answer is "it's rented".
--
Paul Oldham, Milton villager and cam.* FAQ maintainer
cam.* FAQ is at http://www.the-hug.org/paul/camfaq.html
Simon Morris
>
> In article <36f77b92.592760144@news>, Rift...@stones.com (Gropius
> Riftwynde) growled:
>
> > On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:03:26 +0000, Ross Galvin
> > <ross....@cambridge.simoco.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >Various salemen were roaming the Whitehill estate last night touting for
> > >Zenith windows - he wanted to come back and explain how Zenith may give
> > >huge discounts or even install the windows for free if they could use
> > >the house in their ads.
> >
> > I read somewhere the other day that the best plan is to say something
> > like: "It's you again. Look, we took care of Harry and then we dumped
> > the body. End of story. We told you before, we don't wanna know nuthin
> > more, okay?. Now quit calling us or Mr. Bellini will get very upset."
>
> :-)
>
> I'm told the best answer is "it's rented".
>
It works without fail for me.
S.
Mike Trinder
> On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:03:26 +0000, Ross Galvin
> <ross....@cambridge.simoco.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Various salemen were roaming the Whitehill estate last night touting for
> >Zenith windows - he wanted to come back and explain how Zenith may give
> >huge discounts or even install the windows for free if they could use
> >the house in their ads.
>
> I got a call from Bowater the other day, asking if I wanted free
> windows. I told him I already had as many windows as I need. "But
> they are free!" he said. But I don't need any more! "Just a minute,
> I'll put you on to my supervisor." Hangup.
>
> I read somewhere the other day that the best plan is to say something
> like: "It's you again. Look, we took care of Harry and then we dumped
> the body. End of story. We told you before, we don't wanna know nuthin
> more, okay?. Now quit calling us or Mr. Bellini will get very upset."
Even better, and quicker, but less funny is to simply say that you are
renting the property. They will put the phone down on you rather than the
other way around :)
That said, I once worked at a house in Sussex when a DG sales call came
through. In reply to the 'how many windows do you have' we paused a bit
before saying, 'I'm not sure, we may have to get the plans out for that
one - off the top of my head there are one or two windows per room, and
say 50 or 60 rooms so that makes 90 tops. Not sure that uPVC is acceptable
for a grade one listed building though...' *click* *brrrrrr*
--
Mike T -- mpb...@spam.ac.uk (that's cam not spam)
Jon S Green
I'm not sure how far East the use of chat, or khat, goes -- but I don't
think it's all that strong; I read somewhere that the effects were no
more powerful than being mildly gone on dope.
Jon S Green
> I'm told the best answer is "it's rented".
Or, on the phone (to a national company), "Sure, send someone round.
Look, it's not going to be a problem, installing replacement windows on
the twelfth floor, is it?"
Only really works when you've a big house number, though.
Paul Oldham
(Simon Morris) growled:
> Newsgroups: cam.misc
> To: pa...@the-hug.org
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Paul Oldham wrote:
> >
> > I'm told the best answer is "it's rented".
>
> It works without fail for me.
Yerrrsss ... not sure why you needed to mail me to tell me that though.
Posting it here would have been ample.
Paul Oldham
jo...@nojunk.harlequin.co.uk (Jon S Green) growled:
> pa...@the-hug.org (Paul Oldham) wrote:
>
> > I'm told the best answer is "it's rented".
>
> Or, on the phone (to a national company), "Sure, send someone round.
> Look, it's not going to be a problem, installing replacement windows on
> the twelfth floor, is it?"
>
> Only really works when you've a big house number, though.
Ah, well, they don't phone us. Ever. Thus are the advantages of being
ex-directory (phone book *only* - you can get us on 192).
Richard Meredith
> On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:03:26 +0000, Ross Galvin
> <ross....@cambridge.simoco.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Various salemen were roaming the Whitehill estate last night touting
> for
> >Zenith windows - he wanted to come back and explain how Zenith may give
> >huge discounts or even install the windows for free if they could use
> >the house in their ads.
>
> I got a call from Bowater the other day, asking if I wanted free
> windows. I told him I already had as many windows as I need. "But
> they are free!" he said. But I don't need any more! "Just a minute,
> I'll put you on to my supervisor." Hangup.
>
> I read somewhere the other day that the best plan is to say something
> like: "It's you again. Look, we took care of Harry and then we dumped
> the body. End of story. We told you before, we don't wanna know nuthin
> more, okay?. Now quit calling us or Mr. Bellini will get very upset."
Zenith do have a system where they'll quit bothering you (on the phone, at
least - the door to door drongoes still appear from time to time) if you
tell them to stop. I found this out when I blew higher than up with about
the fifth double glazing salesman of the week and demanded that they quit
bothering me.
--
The brain is a wonderful organ - it works from the moment you're
born to the moment you open your mouth.
Sapient Fridge
writes
>Isn't "chat" a Far Eastern euphemism for sex?
Hmm, I wish you hadn't said that. I doubt I'm ever going to order
a chicken chat in an indian restaurant again now.
--
sapient...@sengir.demon.co.uk * ICQ #17887309 * Save the net *
Grok: http://www.cauce.org http://www.spamfree.org * kill a spammer *
Find: http://www.blighty.com/spam/spade.html * today *
Kill: http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/spam.html *
Keith Choda
"I'm sorry you've got the wrong number"
"Sorry about that - my mistake - is this <numberijustcalled>
"yes it is"
"Well we are Zenith Windows and we are phoning from Histon"
Come on guys - lets cut the chat and slam the munition in.
"Let go of him you motherfucker"
BLAM
Colin Rosenstiel
(Paul Oldham) wrote:
> In article <376593a1....@newshost.cam.harlequin.co.uk>,
> jo...@nojunk.harlequin.co.uk (Jon S Green) growled:
>
> > pa...@the-hug.org (Paul Oldham) wrote:
> >
> > > I'm told the best answer is "it's rented".
> >
> > Or, on the phone (to a national company), "Sure, send someone round.
> > Look, it's not going to be a problem, installing replacement windows
> > on the twelfth floor, is it?"
> >
> > Only really works when you've a big house number, though.
>
> Ah, well, they don't phone us. Ever. Thus are the advantages of being
> ex-directory (phone book *only* - you can get us on 192).
We're in the phone book, but the only time they didn't phone us was when
we wanted quotes for a replacement window!
Colin Rosenstiel
Jon S Green
> Hello? Can I speak to Mr Anderson please?
> "I'm sorry you've got the wrong number"
> "Sorry about that - my mistake - is this <numberijustcalled>
> "yes it is"
> "Well we are Zenith Windows and we are phoning from Histon"
>
> Come on guys - lets cut the chat and slam the munition in.
>
> "Let go of him you motherfucker"
YAQTAICMFP!
Vicky Larmour
>Keith Choda <cho...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hello? Can I speak to Mr Anderson please?
>> "I'm sorry you've got the wrong number"
>> "Sorry about that - my mistake - is this <numberijustcalled>
>> "yes it is"
>> "Well we are Zenith Windows and we are phoning from Histon"
>>
>> Come on guys - lets cut the chat and slam the munition in.
>>
>> "Let go of him you motherfucker"
>
>YAQTAICMFP!
What worries me is that this is the guy who did our wedding photography...he
seemed quite sane at the time but perhaps the stresses of the intervening
two years have got to him? :-))
Vicky
--
vicky.larmour[at]camcon.co.uk All opinions mine.
"What?" said Piglet, with a jump. And then, to show that
he hadn't been frightened, he jumped up and down once or
twice in an exercising sort of way. -- Winnie-the-Pooh
Jon S Green
> In article <36f9b72d...@newshost.cam.harlequin.co.uk>,
> jo...@nojunk.harlequin.co.uk (Jon S Green) wrote:
> >Keith Choda <cho...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello? Can I speak to Mr Anderson please?
> >> "I'm sorry you've got the wrong number"
> >> "Sorry about that - my mistake - is this <numberijustcalled>
> >> "yes it is"
> >> "Well we are Zenith Windows and we are phoning from Histon"
> >>
> >> Come on guys - lets cut the chat and slam the munition in.
> >>
> >> "Let go of him you motherfucker"
> >
> >YAQTAICMFP!
>
> What worries me is that this is the guy who did our wedding photography...he
> seemed quite sane at the time but perhaps the stresses of the intervening
> two years have got to him? :-))
Damn, I was hoping you hadn't noticed me lurking in the bushes with a
long lens...
Oh, hang on, you meant Mr. Choda, yes?
*blush*
Keith Choda
sane at the time but the stresses of the intervening two years have got to me. I am no longer an employed wedding
photographer. Now I am a freelance wedding photographer. But I do not phone up unsuspecting people asking to speak to Mr
Anderson in order to get work. It is cheap, dirty and nasty. Or is "marketing led" the phrase I am looking for?
Come on, Vicky. Remind me about the wedding - and I do hope you liked the pictures. Check out my web-site for details on
what I am up to these days.
Love and best wishes to 90% of the population of Cambridge (and hugs to the rest of you),
Keith.
Vicky Larmour wrote:
> In article <36f9b72d...@newshost.cam.harlequin.co.uk>,
> jo...@nojunk.harlequin.co.uk (Jon S Green) wrote:
> >Keith Choda <cho...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello? Can I speak to Mr Anderson please?
> >> "I'm sorry you've got the wrong number"
> >> "Sorry about that - my mistake - is this <numberijustcalled>
> >> "yes it is"
> >> "Well we are Zenith Windows and we are phoning from Histon"
> >>
> >> Come on guys - lets cut the chat and slam the munition in.
> >>
> >> "Let go of him you motherfucker"
> >
> >YAQTAICMFP!
>
> What worries me is that this is the guy who did our wedding photography...he
> seemed quite sane at the time but perhaps the stresses of the intervening
> two years have got to him? :-))
>
Vicky Larmour
Keith Choda <cho...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Come on, Vicky. Remind me about the wedding - and I do hope you liked the
> pictures. Check out my web-site for details on
>what I am up to these days.
We certainly did like the pictures....some of them are on our web site at
http://www.jifvik.demon.co.uk :-)
Hope the freelancing is going well!
Chris Stokes
vicky....@camcon.co.nospam.uk (Vicky Larmour) wrote:
> We certainly did like the pictures....some of them are on our web site at
> http://www.jifvik.demon.co.uk :-)
Don't mean to cause trouble, but if wedding photographers in the U.K. aren't
willing to sell negatives, how come they're happy to see their artistic works
published on the wubbleyouwubbleyouwubbleyou?
Chris
--
A language is a dialect that has an army and a navy. (Max Weinreich)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Keith Choda
The reason that Wedding Photographers don't sell negatives is simply because that is not part of the service. Besides,
why would Chris Stokes want to buy a set of medium format negatives in the first place? We know how to store and protect
them, and how to print and display them professionally.
As regards having my work published on the net I am always pleased when this happens, providing I get a name-check
somewhere on the page. This is exactly what Vicky Larmour has done and I am delighted (even if she has spelled my name
wrong!). It's no different to her showing her wedding album to people.
Best wishes,
Keith.
Vicky Larmour
>As regards having my work published on the net I am always pleased when this
> happens, providing I get a name-check
>somewhere on the page. This is exactly what Vicky Larmour has done and I am
> delighted (even if she has spelled my name
>wrong!). It's no different to her showing her wedding album to people.
I will correct the name spelling ASAP. Believe me, I know how annoying it is
to have one's name spelt wrong! :-)
Mark Carroll
That sounds rather tautologous to me; besides, in the US, most _will_
sell you the negatives if you ask, and I don't see them going horribly
bankrupt.
>why would Chris Stokes want to buy a set of medium format negatives in the first place? We know how to store and protect
>them, and how to print and display them professionally.
(snip)
<shrug> There seems to be a fair demand for it in the US, and we would
have been willing to pay quite a bit to a UK wedding photographer for
our negatives and the rights to the pictures, except they were all
daft enough not to take the money for something they could have easily
done. Why we want them and what we do with them then would be our
business.
But you seem generally cute and fluffy, so I shan't rant any more. (-:
Reduce your line lengths, and you'll fit right in here!
-- Mark
Dom
ma...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Mark Carroll) wrote:
><shrug> There seems to be a fair demand for it in the US, and we would
>have been willing to pay quite a bit to a UK wedding photographer for
>our negatives and the rights to the pictures, except they were all
>daft enough not to take the money for something they could have easily
>done. Why we want them and what we do with them then would be our
>business.
And that's exactly why they won't sell you the negatives.
Photography is not a McJob: I think you'll find almost all
professionals have an enthusiasm for it, which added to
the sort of pride in one's work I'd expect from any
professional means that they really don't want people
doing what they like with their creative output.
(Hard to view wedding photography as "creative", I know).
Gropius Riftwynde
>Photography is not a McJob: I think you'll find almost all
>professionals have an enthusiasm for it, which added to
>the sort of pride in one's work I'd expect from any
>professional means that they really don't want people
>doing what they like with their creative output.
Bugger that. Most jobbing photographers' work is on contract and the
negatives are of no use to the photographer apart from repeat prints
to the client, which is likely to be for a very limited time period.
If you want to talk about creative output then forget aboutjobbing
wedding photographers around Cambridge (I mean, get real!).
I got my wedding photos done by Ramsey and Muspratt, who admittedly
did have some superb photos they took in earlier years of Virginia
Wolf, Guy Burgess, etc. They really were old-style professional
photographers. Unfortunately they both died (I assume). Their business
and stock was sold on to someone else (who went out of business) and
there the trail ends. If I wanted a copy of one of my wedding photos I
would have to apply in the first instance via a ouija board.
GR
Simon Morris
>
> I got my wedding photos done by Ramsey and Muspratt, who admittedly
> did have some superb photos they took in earlier years of Virginia
> Wolf, Guy Burgess, etc.
I imagine a photograph of Guy Burgess's and Virginia Woolf's
wedding would be worth a lot of money.
S.
Vicky Larmour
Riftwynde-spamnoo!@stones.com wrote:
>I got my wedding photos done by Ramsey and Muspratt,
They did my parents wedding photos too :-))
Gropius Riftwynde
<sim...@iptech.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I imagine a photograph of Guy Burgess's and Virginia Woolf's
>wedding would be worth a lot of money.
It would certainly be a conversation piece. More improbable but not as
amusing as VW and Rupert Brooke bathing in the nude together.
I had a sudden fit of nostalgia and looked them (the photographers) up
on the web. Unfortunately the only photo was unloadable, but the
following snippet was provided;
"Both Muspratt and
Ramsey learned about Man Ray's work and began using solarization in
much of their work. Professor John D. Bernal, the crystallographer and
supporter of left-wing causes, helped them in their initial
experimentation in this area. In fact, the Oxford chemists G. W. W.
Stevens and R. G. W. Norrish became so intrigued by Muspratt and
Ramsey's solarizations that they were inspired to carry out one of
the most careful scientific studies of solarization ever made, to be
discussed in Chapter 5.
Over the years, Muspratt and Ramsey photographed many British artists,
writers, radicals and other notables, such as Julian Bell, Quentin
Bell, Vanessa Bell, Anthony Blunt, David Brynley, Guy Burgess,
Alistair Cooke, Dorothy Hodgkins, Donald McLean, Lord Rothschild, C.
P. Snow, and Virginia Woolf. Their studio was still in operation at
least as late as 1978"
The rest of the story is on:
http://www.cchem.berkeley.edu/~wljeme/Chapt3.html
*Warning. Contains depictions of human nudity.
Actually all that I remember was Lettice Ramsey being overwhelmingly
bossy, clambering over gravestones and pushing my grandmother over one
to get a better shot. Quite surreal.
GR
Mark Carroll
(snip)
>Photography is not a McJob: I think you'll find almost all
>professionals have an enthusiasm for it, which added to
>the sort of pride in one's work I'd expect from any
>professional means that they really don't want people
>doing what they like with their creative output.
...yet I can commission an oil painting of myself and come away with
the original, not just prints; I don't notice artists being terribly
upset about this. Indeed, when I write software for clients, although
I am normally quite proud and possessive of my work, somehow I manage
to bring myself to document it and things for them in case they want
to take over development in-house.
You do make a good point - I just don't believe that it completely
explains this behaviour for all wedding photographers. The fact that
we simply couldn't find anyone to photograph us for a day and give us
negatives amazes me - does no-one want the extra business this could
attract? It's not like we plan to sneer at the negatives then defecate
on them or anything.
(So, yes, I do agree with you to an extent, but I don't think you can
take the argument quite as far as necessary.)
-- Mark
Gropius Riftwynde
(Mark Carroll) wrote:
>You do make a good point - I just don't believe that it completely
>explains this behaviour for all wedding photographers. The fact that
>we simply couldn't find anyone to photograph us for a day and give us
>negatives amazes me -
It just needs a couple of enrepreneurial photographers to offer a
keep-the-negs deal (with quality photography, of course) at a
realistic all-in price to start the ball rolling. They would end up
with 90% of the business if they marketed it the right way.
GR
Derek Law
> ...yet I can commission an oil painting of myself and come away with
> the original, not just prints;
You don't get all the preparatory sketches and used paint tubes, though.
Just because we happen to be aware of the intermediate step in photography, it
doesn't mean that step is necessarily for sale.
> You do make a good point - I just don't believe that it completely
> explains this behaviour for all wedding photographers. The fact that
> we simply couldn't find anyone to photograph us for a day and give us
> negatives amazes me - does no-one want the extra business this could
> attract? It's not like we plan to sneer at the negatives then defecate
> on them or anything.
I'm quite impressed that there are still some things which money can't buy.
However, I expect there are lots of people who would photograph you and give you
the negatives for a fee - it's just that none of them were professional wedding
photographers.
--
Derek
Mark Carroll
Gropius Riftwynde <Riftwynde-spamnoo!@stones.com> wrote:
(snip)
>It just needs a couple of enrepreneurial photographers to offer a
>keep-the-negs deal (with quality photography, of course) at a
>realistic all-in price to start the ball rolling. They would end up
>with 90% of the business if they marketed it the right way.
Believe me, we're thinking about it... (-:
-- Mark
Mark Carroll
Derek Law <dere...@cwcom.net> wrote:
>Mark Carroll wrote:
>
>> ...yet I can commission an oil painting of myself and come away with
>> the original, not just prints;
>
>You don't get all the preparatory sketches and used paint tubes, though.
If I offered 40% extra money for them or something, I probably would.
>Just because we happen to be aware of the intermediate step in photography, it
>doesn't mean that step is necessarily for sale.
True. But when it'd more profitable to sell it, it's no use to them,
and can be easily given and reveals nothing extra, I remain amazed
that no-one wants the extra cash.
(snip)
>I'm quite impressed that there are still some things which money can't buy.
Of course there are, but I don't see why it is good that wedding
negatives can't be bought. (Well, they can, and money could buy them -
I'd just fly our US photographer over. (-: He did a fantastic job, and
it wouldn't cost a silly amount as we'd be paying US$ with our GBP.)
>However, I expect there are lots of people who would photograph you and give you
>the negatives for a fee - it's just that none of them were professional wedding
>photographers.
Yes - we would have used a trusted friend had we not been worried
about them all being able to just relax and enjoy proceedings. They
don't have to be fantastic photographs after all, so long as we get
a few good ones.
I'm merely pointing out a surprising hole in the market that there's
no good reason for AFAICS, and it irritates me when people suggest
that the hole should obviously remain. Local photographers seem happy
to sell negatives of graduation portraits, etc., so the notion can't
be that foreign to them.
I am not claiming that all wedding photographers should be willing to
sell negatives - what they do and don't sell is up to them - but I am
annoyed that none at all do.
-- Mark
Tim Ward
(2) We did have some pictures done by a professional photograhper who
wouldn't sell us the negs and wouldn't sell as a photoCD of the pictures and
wouldn't dicuss any terms under which we could display the photos on our web
site. Possibly because they didn't understand the question. So I captured
them with a camcorder and a Snappy from the prints!! - with somewhat dubious
results as you can see on the site below.
--
Tim Ward - Brett Ward Limited
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/The_Monster_Family
Dom
ma...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Mark Carroll) wrote:
>In article <7ddcm8$d7j$1...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>, Dom <d...@i-cubed.co.uk> wrote:
>(snip)
>>Photography is not a McJob: I think you'll find almost all
>>professionals have an enthusiasm for it, which added to
>>the sort of pride in one's work I'd expect from any
>>professional means that they really don't want people
>>doing what they like with their creative output.
>(snip)
>
>....yet I can commission an oil painting of myself and come away with
>the original, not just prints; I don't notice artists being terribly
>upset about this.
Like with like: the oil portrait is the end product, and the
photographic prints are the end product. And as for artists:
one I know said "you don't buy a painting, you buy the right
to keep it".
Dom
Rift...@stones.com (Gropius Riftwynde) wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Mar 99 13:12:04 GMT, d...@i-cubed.co.uk (Dom) wrote:
>
>>professionals have an enthusiasm for it, which added to
>>the sort of pride in one's work I'd expect from any
>>professional means that they really don't want people
>>doing what they like with their creative output.
>
>negatives are of no use to the photographer apart from repeat prints
>to the client, which is likely to be for a very limited time period.
>If you want to talk about creative output then forget aboutjobbing
>wedding photographers around Cambridge (I mean, get real!).
Perhaps a sense of realism is why I wrote this immediately
after that paragraph:
>>(Hard to view wedding photography as "creative", I know).
No idea why you snipped it.
What if the negs get handed over to some cack-handed amateur
to print up?
Mark Carroll
Oooh! A local one that's still in business?
>(2) We did have some pictures done by a professional photograhper who
>wouldn't sell us the negs and wouldn't sell as a photoCD of the pictures and
>wouldn't dicuss any terms under which we could display the photos on our web
>site. Possibly because they didn't understand the question. So I captured
>them with a camcorder and a Snappy from the prints!! - with somewhat dubious
>results as you can see on the site below.
(-:
-- Mark
Steve Hunt
> Like with like: the oil portrait is the end product, and the
> photographic prints are the end product.
Will wedding photographers agree to take slides?
-- Steve
Gropius Riftwynde
>Perhaps a sense of realism is why I wrote this immediately
>after that paragraph:
>
>>>(Hard to view wedding photography as "creative", I know).
>
>No idea why you snipped it.
Sorry, yes. There is no reason why somebody photographing a wedding
shouldn't be 'creative' if they are photographic 'artists', but the
majority turn out very mediocre stuff. It isn't necessarily that they
can't do better - they may simply be turning out what the market
appears to want. Nice bit of colour. Rows of smiling faces. Something
to stick in the album.
GR
Roland Perry
writes
>And as for artists:
>one I know said "you don't buy a painting, you buy the right
>to keep it".
The bloke whose paintings are an array of spots doesn't even paint the
spots. He licences you to paint them in the colours he specifies.
--
Roland Perry
Mark Carroll
(snip)
>Like with like: the oil portrait is the end product, and the
That's a pretty arbitrary definition; why can't the oil painting be an
intermediate part of the process, or a photographer's negatives be the
end product? Because of what's conventionally supplied, that's all:
there's nothing intrinsic about them that makes them a particular part
of the process except that most people ask for part X, or part Y. Why
should it be axiomatic that it is impossible to buy parts of the
process that precede what is usually asked for?
I note you snipped my comment that I _could_ probably get the
intermediate byproducts from an oil painter, or at least some of them.
>one I know said "you don't buy a painting, you buy the right
>to keep it".
<giggle> There are many, many artists who are happy to sell their work to
whoever comes in the door and never see it again or know how it's getting
on in its new home.
-- Mark
Mark Carroll
>to print up?
So what if they do?
I'm not sure what the concern is, frankly - if the photographer's worried
about poor printing, etc. making their photography look bad, they could
insist on selling you a full set of prints of the negatives made by them
along with the negatives, so it's clear where the fault actually was if
that happens.
-- Mark
kelv...@my-dejanews.com
Keith Choda <cho...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The reason that Wedding Photographers don't sell negatives is simply because that is not part of the service.
Im perhaps a little late on this thread but I have done a few weddings
in my time, and have in the past been happy to hand over the negs.....
Subject to prior arrangement!
It just means I might charge a little more in the first instance to turn
up and take the pictures. I would normally charge the going 'Wedding Operator'
rate which is typically £60. Printing costs etc I would charge seperately.
http://ds.dial.pipex.com/mg.maestro/wedding.jpg
Kelvin
Marcus Streets
reproduction rights to it, which are sold separately.
If you buy negatives you are essentially buying the reproduction rights.
Marcus
Mark Carroll wrote:
>
> In article <7de46j$i6p$8...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>, Dom <d...@i-cubed.co.uk> wrote:
> (snip)
> >Like with like: the oil portrait is the end product, and the
> >photographic prints are the end product. And as for artists:
>
> That's a pretty arbitrary definition; why can't the oil painting be an
> intermediate part of the process, or a photographer's negatives be the
> end product? Because of what's conventionally supplied, that's all:
> there's nothing intrinsic about them that makes them a particular part
> of the process except that most people ask for part X, or part Y. Why
> should it be axiomatic that it is impossible to buy parts of the
> process that precede what is usually asked for?
>
> I note you snipped my comment that I _could_ probably get the
> intermediate byproducts from an oil painter, or at least some of them.
>
they are called sketches or cartoons and can be worth a small fortune,
but only if the final work is worth a large one.
Gropius Riftwynde
(Mark Carroll) wrote:
>In article <7de46j$i6p$8...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>, Dom <d...@i-cubed.co.uk> wrote:
>(snip)
>>Like with like: the oil portrait is the end product, and the
>>photographic prints are the end product. And as for artists:
This is getting silly. The copyright laws on creative artifacts are
very clear. However, since the 'artist' holds the copyright (unless
the artist creates something as an employee, which is a different
case), then the artist is free to enter into separate copyright
agreements with the client.
Gr
Roland Perry
<ma...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>I note you snipped my comment that I _could_ probably get the
>intermediate byproducts from an oil painter, or at least some of them.
There's a ready market in sketches from many [famous] artists.
--
Roland Perry
Mark Carroll
Marcus Streets <mar...@ncipher.com> wrote:
>Normally when you buy the painting you buy the painting, not the
>reproduction rights to it, which are sold separately.
>If you buy negatives you are essentially buying the reproduction rights.
<shrug> Sure - so do you think I'd have a particularly hard time
finding an artist who would paint me a family portrait, and throw in
sketches, etc. and the reproduction rights too for a wad of extra
cash?
>they are called sketches or cartoons and can be worth a small fortune,
>but only if the final work is worth a large one.
True - but of course, are particularly unlikely to be worth any more
than, say, half the worth of the final work itself, which is easily
evaluated to something sensible given a price for the final album of
photographs.
-- Mark
Mark Carroll
(Have sent private e-mail enquiring further....)
-- Mark
Dom
ma...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Mark Carroll) wrote:
>That's a pretty arbitrary definition; why can't the oil painting be an
>intermediate part of the process, or a photographer's negatives be the
>end product? Because of what's conventionally supplied, that's all:
Because the negs can be inexpertly printed.
>there's nothing intrinsic about them that makes them a particular part
>of the process except that most people ask for part X, or part Y. Why
>should it be axiomatic that it is impossible to buy parts of the
>process that precede what is usually asked for?
Sheeeeesh. I don't give a toss either way. I'm trying to
help explain *why* the situation is what it is.
>I note you snipped my comment that I _could_ probably get the
>intermediate byproducts from an oil painter, or at least some of them.
In <vTs*1R...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> ? Not from where I'm
sitting.
>>one I know said "you don't buy a painting, you buy the right
>>to keep it".
>
><giggle> There are many, many artists who are happy to sell their work to
>whoever comes in the door and never see it again or know how it's getting
>on in its new home.
And then there are some who care deeply about what happens
to their work. YMMV.
Paul Troughton
>
> Will wedding photographers agree to take slides?
No. A couple I know spent ages looking for one who would, principally as
a way of getting round the negatives problem, but without success.
However, the photographers have a pretty good excuse in this case:
slides can capture a dynamic range of only 7 or so stops[1], which
really isn't enough to retain detail both on a white wedding dress and a
dark suit. The low contrast negative films typically used by wedding
photographers, however, can cope with about an 11 stop range.
Incidentally these films aren't printed particularly well by your
average minilab, so I can understand the photographers' reluctance to
have the printing process out of their hands. Hopefully the situation
should improve a lot in the next couple of years, as minilabs switch to
using colour inkjets.
If I was doing it professionally, I'd hope to get the "charging for my
time" business model to work, and charge something related to cost for
prints and high-res scans. But it might well be that the upfront cost
(which is all many customers think about) would appear too high.
Paul.
[1] one f-stop is a factor of two change in exposure
--
Paul.Tr...@ieee.org http://www-sigproc.eng.cam.ac.uk/~ptt10/
Signal Processing Group, Cambridge University Engineering Department
Trumpington Street, Cambridge, CB2 1PZ, UK. PGP key ID: C13FB38D
tel +44 1223 3 32767 fax +44 1223 3 32662 home +44 1223 366900
Mark Carroll
>In article <z8B*zp...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> ma...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (Mark Carroll) wrote:
>
>>That's a pretty arbitrary definition; why can't the oil painting be an
>>intermediate part of the process, or a photographer's negatives be the
>>end product? Because of what's conventionally supplied, that's all:
>
>Because the negs can be inexpertly printed.
So? People will sell me drawing pads even though I may draw badly. As
I mentioned elsewhere, if the photographer's worried about their work
looking bad, they can insist on selling a full set of prints by them
with the negatives, so it's clear that any problems weren't their
fault. I don't see what other concerns there may be that are any
business at all of the photographer.
>>there's nothing intrinsic about them that makes them a particular part
>>of the process except that most people ask for part X, or part Y. Why
>>should it be axiomatic that it is impossible to buy parts of the
>>process that precede what is usually asked for?
>
>Sheeeeesh. I don't give a toss either way. I'm trying to
>help explain *why* the situation is what it is.
Sorry; I'm glad to note that you're at least not making a point of
agreeing with it then. (-: I'm just saying why I don't think your
explanation can be the whole story.
>>I note you snipped my comment that I _could_ probably get the
>>intermediate byproducts from an oil painter, or at least some of them.
>
>In <vTs*1R...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> ? Not from where I'm
>sitting.
Sorry - you're completely right - was snipped just before that.
>>>one I know said "you don't buy a painting, you buy the right
>>>to keep it".
>>
>><giggle> There are many, many artists who are happy to sell their work to
>>whoever comes in the door and never see it again or know how it's getting
>>on in its new home.
>
>And then there are some who care deeply about what happens
>to their work. YMMV.
That's fine with me. I just wish they all didn't, and I don't think
this is the principal explanation in all cases. That some
photographers are extraordinarily possessive is very plausible, but
the whole industry - a service industry - even in the face of much
extra cash?
Well, time for me to add our latest purchases to our budget...
-- Mark
Mark Carroll
photographers whose possible views you are putting forth (-:) Don't
mean anything personal! It's just close to my heart...
-- Mark
Tim Ward
>In article <uGXFkaxd#GA....@ntdwwaaw.compuserve.com>,
>Tim Ward <The_Monst...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>(1) My wedding photographer gave me the negs.
>
>Oooh! A local one that's still in business?
Sorry, that was something of a piss-take - it was a mate of mine: I paid for
the films, he took the pictures.
Jonathan Larmour
Mark Carroll <ma...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>In article <7dgfun$1ss$7...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>, Dom <d...@i-cubed.co.uk> wrote:
>>Sheeeeesh. I don't give a toss either way. I'm trying to
>>help explain *why* the situation is what it is.
>
>Sorry; I'm glad to note that you're at least not making a point of
>agreeing with it then. (-: I'm just saying why I don't think your
>explanation can be the whole story.
You're right Mark. Its evidently part of a massive global conspiracy
conceived by aliens, and covered up by the government. By withholding the
negatives, they allow the pictures to be subtly doctored, thus gradually
changing the "truth" over the years without attracting the attention of the
general populace. But I'm too clever for them. I just got wedding photo
reprints, and the picture of "me" has more hair than I really do, and no
beer belly!
I do not pretend to understand their sinister motives in doing this, but
something is undoubtedly afoot. Marriage is a symbol of family life,
which is one of the foundations of civilised society[1], so this must be an
attempt to attack us at our weak point.
You didn't think "Choda" was a human name, did you? Its Alpha Centauri for
"Supreme leader" I reckon.
Jifl ;-)
[1] Okay, I'm bending my beliefs here to fit the story :-)
--
Cygnus Solutions, 35 Cambridge Place, Cambridge, UK. Tel: +44 (1223) 728762
"Women marry hoping their husbands will change, men||Home e-mail: jifl @
marry hoping their wives never do. Both are rare." || jifvik.demon.co.uk
Help fight spam! http://spam.abuse.net/ These opinions are all my own fault
Phil Anderson
Keith Choda wrote:
> Hello? Can I speak to Mr Anderson please?
> "I'm sorry you've got the wrong number"
> "Sorry about that - my mistake - is this <numberijustcalled>
> "yes it is"
> "Well we are Zenith Windows and we are phoning from Histon"
do do do do....spooky or what? I AM that Mr Anderson, and when they phoned
me they asked to speak to Mrs Anderson. I refused point blank to let them,
but they insisted, so I pointed out I was single. Their reply:
Not according to our records
!
My memory is poor I know, does anyone have the negatives of this wedding? I
think I should be told etc
Tim Ward
communications for Mr Brett and Mrs Ward get returned "addressee unknown".
But I did know someone (male, unmarried) who put up with being called Mrs
Fisher as it was the only name under which his favourite central heating
contractors, who were actually competent at mending heating systems, would
correspond with him.