Re: Harper Divides Canada; Creates civil war within Canada.-Time For Westerners to Separate!!
Canuck57
"EricŪ" <ericŪ@hardknocks.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.1fcf9d402...@news.telus.net...
> FredGrosvenorBurg wrote . . .
>
>> Now is the time for western Canada, especially Alberta and Bc, to
>> separate
>> from the commies and frogs, and join Alaska in making a new free
>> enterprise
>> nation.
>
> You mean like the way you separated yourself from reality a few decades
> ago?
Actually, it is reality. Unlike Quebec, Alberta would immediately realize a
$16 billion dollar additional surplus from not having to make transfer
payments alone. Add in that GST and income tax would stay in the west and
not get pork barrelled out by Ottawa to special interests. Alberta kicks
far too much into Ottawa for absolutely nothing.
BC, take a look at the same thing. All that income tax/GST money going back
east and we still don't have a decent highway through BC from east to west.
And the federal government brags about spending 5 million... for your
billions on a sign so you should be happy? Hardwood lumber problems no
more, the US has interstate trade laws to prevent what happened and that
business would take off. Employment would boom!
Both provinces would then have lower costs on automobiles, lower taxes for
both individuals and companies, lower gas prices, lower cost fruits, fresher
and lower cost vegetables, and can travel the US freely without worrying
about border harassment for GST.
The Americans, you bet they would take Alberta and BC together. It bridges
energy and natural resources from Alaska to Washington DC and the first
thing they would do is put a real interstate highway north-south and
east-west right throughout both provinces. Americans would be utterly
disgusted at the quality of our national highways and fix it ASAP.
Politically, you can recall politicians that don't act in your interests.
You get to vote for three branches of government that all proactively
participate in the process. The US senate is active, unlike Ottawa it is
elected and isn't a pork barrel for your dollars.
It is a no brainer financially and politically. It is our brainwashed
culture and inability to change that prevents this. It is the freeloaders
getting Ottawa government cheques for doing nothing. This is the price we
pay to remain in a colonial, archaic aristocratic parliamentary system.
Even if BC/Alberta didn't become states, much the same benefits could come
if these two provinces formed their own country called Western Canada.
banyan
have. Trying to join the yanks would leave us hugely worse off.
Let's look at the debt situation. The US federal debt is currently $8.6
trillion. Our share would come to $206.4 billion US, or $234.2 billion
Cdn. The Canadian debt is $523.3 billion. Our share of the Canadian
debt is $129.3 billion. Our debt load is about 1/2 what it could be if
the Americans would agree to have us. Whoopee!
When we're negotiating our way out of Canada, we might have to pay our
way out. And to get into the US, we might have to buy our way in. In
short, we might have to ante up for $363.5 billion. That's about
$48,000 apiece.
Work out how much the net present value of the savings in tax you may or
may not gain (taking away the amount you'll have to shell out to
maintain some semblance of health care insurance), and you'll find out
how long the payout is to get that $48,000 back.
Let's ask a few hard questions about what it would mean to be part of
the US. Would they give us our own senators, or would we have to share
Alaska's? The other states might have something to say about us
diluting their power. By the time the negotiating is over, I bet we end
up with little or no representation in the senate.
The house is an even worse prospect. We have 3.376 million people in
Alberta, 4.31 million in BC, for a total of 7.687 million people.
Canada has a total of 32.624 million people. That's 23.5% of the
population of Canada.
The US has basically 300 million people. With us it would be 307.6
million, and we would comprise 2.4% of the overall population. There
are 435 seats, and we would get 10.8 of them (let's say 11).
So, with either no senators or senators in exchange for some wickedly
stilted compromise, and 11 seats out of 435, we would have approximately
10% of the stroke we have currently in Canada. If we meant to get out
of a situation where we are liable to be ignored, this is not it.
Besides, the oil and gas wealth is temporary. Once we sell off the last
barrel, that gravy train is gone. And that'll be the case whether or
not we're in Canada when we sell it. We're selling it to the Americans
whether we're Canadian or American while we do it.
In short, there's no point to leaving. We'd walk into more debt and
we'd be isolated far beyond anything we're used to.
Canuck57
"banyan" <ban...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:6AO9h.364992$5R2.239939@pd7urf3no...
> Bah. Right now, we have the most Western Canadian government we'll ever
> have. Trying to join the yanks would leave us hugely worse off.
>
> Let's look at the debt situation. The US federal debt is currently $8.6
> trillion. Our share would come to $206.4 billion US, or $234.2 billion
> Cdn. The Canadian debt is $523.3 billion. Our share of the Canadian debt
> is $129.3 billion. Our debt load is about 1/2 what it could be if the
> Americans would agree to have us. Whoopee!
Yep, lets take a look. Look at the US 8.6 trillion. It INCLUDES Social
Security deficits and is fundered to 2021 and they think they have a
problem. Where as the Canadian 540 billion or so does not include future
liabilities and commitments beyound immediate debt. For Canada, add 1
trillion. CPP operates on a 3 month window, revenue today gets distributed
3 months for now in Canada. No reserve. Friviolous was bankrupted CPP some
time ago.
So 1.54 trillion over 33 million, or 8.7 over 300 million. Grade 6 math can
figure that out.
> When we're negotiating our way out of Canada, we might have to pay our way
> out. And to get into the US, we might have to buy our way in. In short,
> we might have to ante up for $363.5 billion. That's about $48,000 apiece.
Where do you get that number? I saw one number that said the average
Canadian owes $172,000. Much lower taxes for life, I might pay it.
> Work out how much the net present value of the savings in tax you may or
> may not gain (taking away the amount you'll have to shell out to maintain
> some semblance of health care insurance), and you'll find out how long the
> payout is to get that $48,000 back.
Actually, a myth to dispell. If I said you would pay 30% less in taxes, but
would have to pay 10% more back in private health care would you decline?
Also, I would toss in, Americans don't wait in line.
> Let's ask a few hard questions about what it would mean to be part of the
> US. Would they give us our own senators, or would we have to share
> Alaska's? The other states might have something to say about us diluting
> their power. By the time the negotiating is over, I bet we end up with
> little or no representation in the senate.
Senators, 2 per state. Read some. It isn't a secret. And as I said in
another post, 2 votes in a new ACTIVE and PARTICIPATING senate with Alberta
is 2 of 102, sounds better than 0 in 105 of a inactive senate. How does
this not compute?
> The house is an even worse prospect. We have 3.376 million people in
> Alberta, 4.31 million in BC, for a total of 7.687 million people. Canada
> has a total of 32.624 million people. That's 23.5% of the population of
> Canada.
And, your point? The election is over before CBC airs it! Can't vote for a
senate, so no alternative or interest. Same old Ottawa BS.
> The US has basically 300 million people. With us it would be 307.6
> million, and we would comprise 2.4% of the overall population. There are
> 435 seats, and we would get 10.8 of them (let's say 11).
>
> So, with either no senators or senators in exchange for some wickedly
> stilted compromise, and 11 seats out of 435, we would have approximately
> 10% of the stroke we have currently in Canada. If we meant to get out of
> a situation where we are liable to be ignored, this is not it.
As if Ottawa gives a flyung rats ass right now. Not all provinces are
treated equally, one of is a "Nation" right now. At least we would be 1 in
51 (senate) equal states with proportional representation to the whole.
Would not have to worry about that border guard hasle either when I go to
Montana.
> Besides, the oil and gas wealth is temporary. Once we sell off the last
> barrel, that gravy train is gone. And that'll be the case whether or not
> we're in Canada when we sell it. We're selling it to the Americans
> whether we're Canadian or American while we do it.
We sell it to Americans already, your point? Like Ontario trees? Just
cutting out the middle man, Ottawa.
Oil will be here for some time. Didn't see Ottawa in 1983 or 1992 do
anything special. Texas rode it out.
> In short, there's no point to leaving. We'd walk into more debt and we'd
> be isolated far beyond anything we're used to.
Do the math. Canada is further down the hole than you think. You don't
think Harpo trashed 30+ billion of 4,000,000 Canadian shareholders equity
while running a "surplus" and is telling the whole truth, nothing but the
true so help the Canadian people do you? Lets face it, Ottawa want to SPEND
out of control.
banyan
> "banyan" <ban...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:6AO9h.364992$5R2.239939@pd7urf3no...
>
>> Bah. Right now, we have the most Western Canadian government we'll ever
>> have. Trying to join the yanks would leave us hugely worse off.
>>
>> Let's look at the debt situation. The US federal debt is currently $8.6
>> trillion. Our share would come to $206.4 billion US, or $234.2 billion
>> Cdn. The Canadian debt is $523.3 billion. Our share of the Canadian debt
>> is $129.3 billion. Our debt load is about 1/2 what it could be if the
>> Americans would agree to have us. Whoopee!
>
> Yep, lets take a look. Look at the US 8.6 trillion. It INCLUDES Social
> Security deficits and is fundered to 2021 and they think they have a
> problem. Where as the Canadian 540 billion or so does not include future
> liabilities and commitments beyound immediate debt. For Canada, add 1
> trillion. CPP operates on a 3 month window, revenue today gets distributed
> 3 months for now in Canada. No reserve. Friviolous was bankrupted CPP some
> time ago.
>
> So 1.54 trillion over 33 million, or 8.7 over 300 million. Grade 6 math can
> figure that out.
>
in the House of Commons in December 2004. "Canada is one of the few
countries in the world with a rock-solid public pension system," he said
in a statement. "Canadians can therefore continue to have confidence in
the Canada Pension Plan and can count on it as an important part of
their retirement savings."'
-- "The Retirement Time Bomb", Gordon Pape, Penguin Canada, P. 73.
'By the end of 2010, the CPP will have $147 billion in assets.' -- ibid,
p. 73
So, there's no CPP debt. There are OAP obligations, paid out of general
revenue, but the OAP is paltry and fairly aggressively clawed back.
However, discussions of OAP, CPP and EI are not relevant since we would
not be eligible for any of the above.
>> When we're negotiating our way out of Canada, we might have to pay our way
>> out. And to get into the US, we might have to buy our way in. In short,
>> we might have to ante up for $363.5 billion. That's about $48,000 apiece.
>
> Where do you get that number? I saw one number that said the average
> Canadian owes $172,000. Much lower taxes for life, I might pay it.
>
That $172,000 may include provincial average debts which Alberta has
none of (or at least, Alberta has cash to offset). My figure was simply
the sum of our per capita Canadian debt and the debt we would assume by
becoming Americans. (I'm showing my work here... do try and follow
along. This is all information from government websites.)
But you bring up a good point. I neglected the BC provincial debt of
$36 billion, which brings up the total to almost exactly $400 billion,
or $53,000 apiece.
>> Work out how much the net present value of the savings in tax you may or
>> may not gain (taking away the amount you'll have to shell out to maintain
>> some semblance of health care insurance), and you'll find out how long the
>> payout is to get that $48,000 back.
>
> Actually, a myth to dispell. If I said you would pay 30% less in taxes, but
> would have to pay 10% more back in private health care would you decline?
> Also, I would toss in, Americans don't wait in line.
>
The OECD says an average person in my situation paid 0.1% less tax
overall in Canada in 2005 than I would have in the US. Most categories
of people did in fact pay less in the US, with the largest difference
being between a single-wage-earning family of four. That difference is
7.3% (5% in the US, 12.3% in Canada). Note that neither 5% nor 12.3% is
a very large number.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/1/1942490.xls
>> Let's ask a few hard questions about what it would mean to be part of the
>> US. Would they give us our own senators, or would we have to share
>> Alaska's? The other states might have something to say about us diluting
>> their power. By the time the negotiating is over, I bet we end up with
>> little or no representation in the senate.
>
> Senators, 2 per state. Read some. It isn't a secret. And as I said in
> another post, 2 votes in a new ACTIVE and PARTICIPATING senate with Alberta
> is 2 of 102, sounds better than 0 in 105 of a inactive senate. How does
> this not compute?
>
As the US exists now, there are two senators per state. Who says we
would be able to become another state? Maybe we'd be a district or a
protectorate, or we'd be rolled into Alaska. This would all have to be
negotiated.
>> The house is an even worse prospect. We have 3.376 million people in
>> Alberta, 4.31 million in BC, for a total of 7.687 million people. Canada
>> has a total of 32.624 million people. That's 23.5% of the population of
>> Canada.
>
> And, your point? The election is over before CBC airs it! Can't vote for a
> senate, so no alternative or interest. Same old Ottawa BS.
>
My point is, we're already sick of the election being over before CBC
airs it. Elections would be ten times as over before our votes were
counted if we were part of the US.
>> The US has basically 300 million people. With us it would be 307.6
>> million, and we would comprise 2.4% of the overall population. There are
>> 435 seats, and we would get 10.8 of them (let's say 11).
>>
>> So, with either no senators or senators in exchange for some wickedly
>> stilted compromise, and 11 seats out of 435, we would have approximately
>> 10% of the stroke we have currently in Canada. If we meant to get out of
>> a situation where we are liable to be ignored, this is not it.
>
> As if Ottawa gives a flyung rats ass right now. Not all provinces are
> treated equally, one of is a "Nation" right now. At least we would be 1 in
> 51 (senate) equal states with proportional representation to the whole.
> Would not have to worry about that border guard hasle either when I go to
> Montana.
>
My point's not about Ottawa. My point is that if Ottawa gives a flying
rat's ass, Washington can be extrapolated to care 1/10 of a flying rat's
ass.
>> Besides, the oil and gas wealth is temporary. Once we sell off the last
>> barrel, that gravy train is gone. And that'll be the case whether or not
>> we're in Canada when we sell it. We're selling it to the Americans
>> whether we're Canadian or American while we do it.
>
> We sell it to Americans already, your point? Like Ontario trees? Just
> cutting out the middle man, Ottawa.
>
> Oil will be here for some time. Didn't see Ottawa in 1983 or 1992 do
> anything special. Texas rode it out.
>
>> In short, there's no point to leaving. We'd walk into more debt and we'd
>> be isolated far beyond anything we're used to.
>
> Do the math. Canada is further down the hole than you think. You don't
> think Harpo trashed 30+ billion of 4,000,000 Canadian shareholders equity
> while running a "surplus" and is telling the whole truth, nothing but the
> true so help the Canadian people do you? Lets face it, Ottawa want to SPEND
> out of control.
>
>
The current US system is in a far worse shambles than Canada is, and is
(or at least was) run by far bigger idiots. You want to be American so
badly, vote with your ass and your dollars -- sell out and move there.
I am not going with you.
Arlan
"banyan" <ban...@shaw.ca> wrote in >>
> The current US system is in a far worse shambles than Canada is, and is (or at
> least was) run by far bigger idiots. You want to be American so badly, vote
> with your ass and your dollars -- sell out and move there. I am not going with
> you.
"banyan"! You cite stats from the OECD (which are MS Excel files) that prove
your point and blow away the dumbasses and their stupid, annoying myths.
What can I say? You're like me!
Way to go Man!
Nothing like a little bit of factual data to swamp the ignorance!
sharx35
"Arlan" <ar...@xks.net> wrote in message
news:ek8m18$rsl$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
Both of you are flaming LIEbrawl faggots.
>
>
Arlan
"sharx35" <sha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8KR9h.12907$1U5.10462@edtnps90...
Go back to calgary.general, asshole.
You're a cowboy without a brain who embarrasses those you live with.
You wouldn't last a minute with me face-to-face, stupid hick.
sharx35
Suck dick, Toronto asswipe.
>
>
banyan
drooled on it. If you're too lazy to try and prove us wrong, don't
bother us. If you can't prove us wrong, admit it or at least shut up.
The name calling just makes you look like a desperate loser.
Arlan
"banyan" <ban...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:4567F192...@shaw.ca...
Never mind. He's just pissed off that his Calgary Flames heroes or Edmonton
Oilers heroes are from Ontario.
Unless it's that red-blooded Albertan goalie with the flames, from Turku
Finland, Mikka Kiprusoff!
Fred
>>> Let's ask a few hard questions about what it would mean to be part of
>>> the US. Would they give us our own senators, or would we have to
>>> share Alaska's? The other states might have something to say about
>>> us diluting their power. By the time the negotiating is over, I bet
>>> we end up with little or no representation in the senate.
>>
>> Senators, 2 per state. Read some. It isn't a secret. And as I said
>> in another post, 2 votes in a new ACTIVE and PARTICIPATING senate with
>> Alberta is 2 of 102, sounds better than 0 in 105 of a inactive
>> senate. How does this not compute?
>>
> As the US exists now, there are two senators per state. Who says we
> would be able to become another state? Maybe we'd be a district or a
> protectorate, or we'd be rolled into Alaska. This would all have to be
> negotiated.
Reference US Constitution, Article IV, Section 3:
"New states may be admitted by the Congress into the union; but no new
state shall be formed on erected within the jurisdiction of any other
state ... without the consent of the states concerned, as well as of the
Congress."
Thus, y'all can't become part of Alaska without the consent of Alaska.
That is not subject to negotiation. Statehood, as such, is; Texas
negotiated its way into the union. But it was an independent nation when
it did so.
But do keep in mind that the parliamentary system of provincial
government y'all now have is not permitted under the US form of
government. The unicameral legislature is Okay, but y'all would have to
establish a separate, co-equal executive branch of state government. And
there *would* be fixed terms of elections.
In my experience, the average Canadian who discusses this subject has no
idea of what changes would be required to convert a Canadian province
into a US state.
--
"Just because you're smart doesn't mean you're wise."
banyan
Canuck57
"Fred" <cske...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4569c1b5$0$15007$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net...
Why would anyone fear loosing the parliamentary system in favour of a US
state method? It is at least as democratic. Most states even allow recall:
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/recallprovision.htm
Alberta and BC are certainly big enough to be states on their own and not
need to annex with Montana nor Alaska. But would benefit greatly as a (real
hiway) Interstate is developed.
So if BC and Alberta became states, would that mean going from Yukon to
Ottawa becomes an international flight over US airspace?
Fred
The difficult part would be secession from Canada and the subsequent war
of independence. And make no mistake about it, war there would be. You
think that Canada's gonna let Alberta, for example, just take their oil
and walk away? Not a chance! And walk away is what Alberta would do,
because any claim that Alberta has to pay any portion of federal debt is
going to be treated by the province that has been made to pump all
those bucks into equalization payments as what it is: bogus.
IF Alberta could make such a move stick, then, and only then, would the
US entertain a petition for statehood.
If Alberta's entreaties resulted in statehood, they would then have to
make all of the modifications to their state and local governmental
systems to conform them to the US system of government. They'd have an
elected governor as head of a co-equal executive branch, fixed terms of
state elections, and a new state tax collection agency, among other
things. And I have no idea what the relationship of Alberta's Indian
State Agencies would be with a federal government with which they have
no treaties.
I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
Fred
People tend to fear the unknown. It's human nature.
> It is at least as democratic.
More so, in that legislators actually represent the people of their
districts. In the Canadian parliamentary system, legislators represent
the party, not the people.
Mr Frederick
news:dmlah.380712$R63.270352@pd7urf1no...
Why would they be given statehood ahead of Puerto Rico? They might be given
territorial status. That would get an elected commissioner with no vote in
the House of Representatives. Same with Guam and the Northern Mariannas,
except Guam doesn't have commonwealth status. Yep, that would give the
right to make decisions of "purely local concern."