Where's the beef?
Jacob Tomaw
Honestly, I leave service often asking if the sermon made me a stronger Christian.
--
Jacob Tomaw
tfl:The Flatiron Life (http://tomaw.com)
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Amy Wagner
I actually think we get some pretty good preaching at
the Temple - though sermons will never hit home for
every person every week. Some are better than others.
As one who writes and delivers sermons periodically,
I've been trained to preach -- and prefer preaching --
"exegetical sermons" that stick closely to the
Biblical text. Honestly, I find it difficult to
preach the sort of sermons that the article talks
about without sounding trite. There are a lot of
people out there who can give a more inspirational and
humorous and enjoyable speech that I can, I guarantee
it. No one needs to listen to me try to be relevant
and inspirational when I'm not that good at either
one.
So, I tend to stick to the text. It gives me
something to say that I figure most people might not
know -- something to contribute that the congregation
probably won't get elsewhere.
But...it's also a struggle to know how to preach a
good exegetical sermon. For me it requires a *lot* of
time to prepare, and that time isn't always easy to
find. Maybe I'll get faster as I do it more -- but
maybe not. I've been told that the best preachers
routinely spend 20 hours a week on sermon prep!
More than that, my better sermons require me to be
vulnerable -- to share with the congregation how God
is using this scripture to shape me and change me. A
friend of mine says that if you want to know how his
relationship with God is going, just listen to his
sermon and you can tell immediately. I've found he's
right. Honestly, it's really, really hard to be that
transparent on a regular basis, so sometimes my
sermons end up more shallow than they should be.
Usually that's because I either didn't put enough time
into study, or I wasn't ready to be honest with the
congregation about my own wrestling. Sometimes it's
just because I'm particularly tired or just feeling
uninspired.
(Oh, and a side note - yes, pastors do sometimes use
borrowed sermons from the web or elsewhere. It's a
big big pet peeve of mine. Borrowing an illustration
is one thing...adopting someone else's sermon is lazy
and inexcusable, in my opinion. Especially if done
regularly. Really, really irritates me!)
So...Jacob & the rest of you...what should sermons do?
What *would* help you walk out of the service feeling
like you are prepared to be a better Christian?
Amy
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John Jerger
Meat is a lovely thing, but getting too much just makes you constipated. I want some unpacking of it, maybe some potatoes mixed in to give a connection to how I'm supposed to be living my life. At best, I want some vegetables too, to feel called to action.
My ideal sermon would have me waking up on Monday with a spiritual hangover, barely able to remember why my closets were empty and a dozen homeless people were crashed out on my floor.
But that's an extreme. Jesus spoke about shepherds and sheep, about servants and prodigal children, about vineyards and wine. And yet the whole time, he was teaching about the Kingdom of God. Giving a real lesson using parables is a rare talent in this world, but I often find myself thinking that's the way sermons are meant to be: a path to God defined by more tangible bits of Creation.
Distantly yours in Christ,
John
P.S. 20 hours? Seriously? Duuude....
Amy Wagner <amy.w...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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Kwang Oh
Among the resources that I had planned was a book titled The Shape of Practical Theology. The book is about theological praxis, and I think is meant to be a tool for Christian Educators. I bought it also because there's a section on homosexuality, and thought that might be valuable at a future time. This all said, I really haven't read it, but here are some bits to chew on.
In a chapter titled Practical Theology as Paraclesis (a derivative of the word Paraclete):
The church tends to stress two forms of the ministry of the Word of God: kerygma, the Word proclaimed; the didache, the Word taught. This leaves paraclesis, the ministry of encouragement or exhortation to the Holy Spirit. This way of thinking separates the rational form of the Word from the relational. It tends toward the the presentation of the Gospel through preaching and teaching, as though the task is fully completed if one is faithful to the content of the Word. The human response to the Word of God is thus primarily a rational one, so that emphasis is on what one understands as true, and not how one lives truthfully and authentically.
Later in the chapter:
Firet made a distinction between the "hermeneutic moment" as a moment of understanding and the "agogic moment" as the moment of change and growth. The hermeneutic moment occurs when the Word of God is proclaimed and taught in a way that a new insight or new understanding comes into the mind. This is when we have the "aha" experience. "Now I see what you are getting at" is the response when this moment occurs.
Many times one can listen to the Word of God preached and taught and have the feeling "I understand that. It makes sense to me. I see what you mean and agree." Yet one can go away without changing a pattern of behavior that contradicts the wisdom and truth of what has been understood. Firet makes the important point that God's Word intends to effect change and growth, not merely to produce new information or new concepts in the mind. This is why the pastoral counselor must go beyond the hermeneutic moment and create the conditions for the agogic moment to occur.
From this information, I gather that all relevant sermons do is get to a hermeneutic moment, and that there is no impetus or momentum to carry that moment into the agogic moment. Even when someone preaches from the text, that agogic moment may not occur! This isn't to say that everything is the pastors fault because it certainly takes an effort on the individual to go beyond what has been preached in order to transform oneself. It's just that the conditions need to be right for the transformation to occur.
Another chapter in the same book is titled Clergy Burnout as a Symptom of Theological Anemia.
And while this was applied to clergy, I think it also applies to the laity. Personally, I think that in receiving the Word, a necessary theological process needs to take place. Granted, it might not happen every time, but it does need to take place because in my opinion, theology is ultimately what drives ones world view.....if we stick by Christian principle and not by secular popularism. One reason why pastors may preach "relevant" sermons is because people are just plain happy with it, and are unwilling (or lazy) to theological think their way through. The agogic moment isn't something on their mind.
Now if we bring in a bit of Methodism here, we are supposed to be on our way to perfection. This necessarily would entail a transformative process, even if you don't see it readily. In principle theology should change the way you think and act, and we look to clergy to provide that guidance (agogy). Sometimes it's just not there, and if it isn't then it's up to us to find it. To pull a bit of process thought here, an initial aim has been given (and if we believe the sermon to be truthful to the Word, divinely inspired, etc) and it is up to us to act upon it.
Pastors going back to the Bible may help.....but then again....it might not.
Kwang
It's the path you take the steps you makes
that make you who you are.
It's the life you live
the gifts you give
the love that's in your heart.
Just try to do the best you can to be a better man.
You don't have to walk on water.
It's how you walk on land.
-- Blue Country --
Joscelynn Gagnon Tomaw
Sorry if that's rambling nonsense. I'm a little sleep deprived these days.
Cheers!
Joscelynn
Jacob Tomaw
Now, the role of messages...
I get so much out of CAFE. I learn a lot about Christ, myself, the world, and how they interact. CAFE has truly changed my life and continues to.
I get a lot out of worship service. When I look through the order of service on Sunday, I don't see motions we are going through. I see theology enacted through traditions molded by 2 millenia of Christian experience. The best ways we have found to bring the community together and confess our sins, recieve absolution, meet at the table, etc. In worship I know I am not just doing this alone but I am doing it with Christians around the world and through time.
However, when it comes to the message I am often lost. I am not sure what I am supposed to get out of the message. I know it must be vital to Christianity as we know it, but I can feel disconnected at times. Although I am not firm on what I want, I know in order to continue the connection with the rest of Christianity, I do want the message to be based on the liturgy. Joscelynn and I have heard some good sermons at her mom's church; but they are not connected to anything. It may be based on scripture, but divorced from the tradition of a time for each reading.
I agree with John that I don't want only the word (as in the text) drilled into me. But I do want the word (the logos) taught to me. Like Joscelynn, I crave instruction. How can I make my life right with God. How can I make my faith grow and enact the word in my whole life. I know Social Justice is important, we should work to be just and participate in and build just institutions. But this is a work and it cannot be the end. If it is the end, I need to reevaluate what I thought was my Wesleyan core. I also feel like this is the same message the secular world is giving me.
Christ makes my life better every day. When I put my faith in him, my life is on the right track. But I fail a lot. I become self centered. I push Christ away, and my life suffers. I have not yet reached perfection. In these times I feel like I have backslid all the way to heathenism. I need help overcoming this.
I don't know for sure the Christ is the one and only, absolutely no other possible way, if you don't believe exactly this way for people to enter into the glory of God. Through, I think it is clear we should witness the word to others. I find it hard to do this when i am so lacking and when what i am thought often is just to not be prejudice. I think the world demands so much more becuase 1) a very besic Chrisitanity is so prevalent in America and 2) Christianity has a pretty bad rap umungst non-believers.
All this said (probably too much said), I do not envy the role of a pastor. Aside from reading the liturgy and praying, I cannot imagine where one starts. I think we see a lot of what the post points out because it works. It keeps people in the pews and most those people do not demand more. I don't think pastors are greedy and power hungry. However, I can imagine how I would feel is I were the pastor of the Temple if there were only one service with 10 people a week, even if I were sure the message I preached was true.
...
Wow, I feel a lot better. And more centered and ready for the message on Sunday. I am so blessed to have a community where we can talk about this and know I am
"Standing on the promises that cannot fail,
When the howling storms of doubt and fear assail,
By the living Word of God I shall prevail,
Standing on the promises of God."
Jacob
John Jerger
I neither think that what you say is nonsense nor that it's particularly disagreeable. Clearly I have a strong personal bent toward the "helping people" line of things. It's simply the way I've connected with God, while leaving me oddly weak on some of the more communal aspects of Christian living. I have come to the far side of the world to follow a call (interesting coincidence: following God's call to service was the subject of Phil's sermon the Sunday after I submitted my Peace Corps application), and while I am in complete faith that I'm on the right path, I'm still not quite where I want to be spiritually. There are other things in Life, much harder stuff to figure out or elicit from most sermons. Even so, I key in most to the idea with which I connect best.
In reading Jacob's latest reply while trying to compose my thoughts further, I wonder if perhaps there's too much focus on the sermon and liturgy. I mean, I've tried to cobble together replacements of them for myself while being so far removed from the church traditions I'm used to, but they still end up being largely absent for me.
Instead, I find the Spirit has given me lessons at random moments to fill the gap. Life in this glorious Creation offers messages aplenty, and the trick seems not so much to be always watching for them, but always ready to take them in when they come. So far as I know, the people around me most of the time are all Buddhists, but they've taught me some great things about true Christianity.
All that said, I'm vaguely peeved that I can't read Phil's sermon from Sunday--the chicagotemple.org sermon listings haven't been updated for about 3 weeks from the look of things. I have a particular interest in any discussions/talk related to the swastika, given that Thailand was so little affected by the Nazis that the symbol is still accepted by some people as a lucky thing here. In fact, the basic Thai greeting is sawatdee, which when written in Thai makes me suspect it's rooted in the original Indian symbol.
This has been its own lesson, one still working through my head. The thought, not yet complete, suggests that a symbol is only meaningful for what you connect with it. Thus, the swastika is evil to most of the world because of the Nazis. But what of the cross? What meaning has been created for it, when you balance the Works and the Sins of Christianity?
Alas, it's approaching 1a.m. here, so I must close off my line of thought for now.
John
P.S. If I don't manage to write again for a while (I'm taking a long vacation starting next week) it's been a blessing to get into such a discussion with y'all.
Cheryl Magrini
Jacob –
I finally read the article on relevant sermons! Had some interesting points. You wouldn’t believe how many pastors will take a sermon off the internet and either use it as is or make a few changes. Not me. I had one person in particular say he wanted a sermon that gave him something he could go out the door and do to allow him to be a better Christian. I also was told by someone else that he never wanted to hear a woman preach. I’ve had some – not boasting but “many” - people tell me they get more out of my children’s sermons more than the adult sermon because I use one point and it is contextual to what I happening and it gives something concrete to do or think about. Sorry frequent “adult” preachers. When I was growing up and shockingly I heard preached by profs at seminary was the old “3 point sermon.” And of course each point began with the same letter – compassion, caring, calling…. In reality how many hours do I spend getting a sermon ready? At least 4-6 hours exegetical research. Then mulling over what direction to go – letting the Holy Spirit nudge me – at least one or two days. Then sitting down to write and to make all the connections… about 4 hours on a good day and at least 6 most times. Now you probably will think I’m crazy – but I spend that amount of time and process with the children’s sermons. I’d say even more relying on the Holy Spirit to guide me. Sometimes I won’t know what it will be until Saturday for Sunday. It can’t be forced. Here at Chicago Temple I preach mostly Wed and Sat, then the once a month Taize in a meditative style. If you haven’t been to Taize, first Fri. of the month then you need to experience this very different type of worship. You can even bring a pillow or yoga mat and you’ll fit right in. Now I’ve got you curious.
I’ve heard sermons where everything was from the Bible and no connection to my daily life. Then I’ve heard feel good sermons that don’t challenge me at all and you’d have to hunt for a biblical reference. I believe that a balance that makes sense in the scope of the sermon is the key. And what Jacob takes away with him from the sermon will be different from Kwong or Amy. That’s the way the Holy Spirit works. It is amazing when a pastor thinks the sermon is so-so and then on the way out several people say, “That really spoke to me.” Or “That is just what I needed to hear today.” We can never predict how a sermon – a “good” one will meet people. Oh – and what theologians are quoted or mentioned in a sermon – let’s start including more diversity and people who are alive.
So that’s Rev. Cheri’s two cents worth. Here’s two pennies for you.