Fear of traffic and ignorant people
Seth Davidson
and there aren't a whole lot of things on the bike that scare me. I commute
from PV to Torrance daily. I've raced since 1984 and have commuted in Japan
and in Germany over a period of years.
With regard to my fear threshold, I'm one of the faster descenders in LA on
Strava, with at least one downhill KOM that's not going to be broken any
time soon. I'm a former Cat 2, current Cat 3, and most often race with the
45+ dudes. I'm 48.
The most frightening part of my cycling existence? The handful of minutes
when I ride down Del Amo Blvd. from Prospect to Hawthorne.
Scares me every single time. Would I ever take the lane on that road? Nope,
and that's the side with the on again, off again bike lane. I avoid Del Amo
from Hawthorne to Prospect returning from home because it's too frightening.
It's not exciting. It's frightening.
I'm not the best bike handler out there, but I'm not a beginner, either.
That's me taking this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTqdHgYjMQs
So I guess although I'm theoretically in the CABO camp, practically speaking
I'm in the Roadblock camp.
Also, I have three kids and would never suggest they get around on bikes (if
they had them). Why? It's too dangerous in LA. Kids on bikes? Not mine.
Law Office of Seth Davidson
20355 Hawthorne Blvd., 2nd Floor
Torrance, CA 90503
310-371-2500 (TEL)
424-241-8118 (CELL)
213-402-3049 (FAX)
--
My firm is a federally designated Debt Relief Agency under the United States
bankruptcy code that assists people with filing for bankruptcy. This message
may contain privileged or confidential information and is intended only for
the individual named. The receipt of this email or any documents attached to
it do not create an attorney-client relationship with my firm. If you are
not the named addressee you should not disclose, disseminate, distribute or
copy this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail by mistake please notify
the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system.
-----Original Message-----
From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of John Forester
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:43 PM
To: Roadblock
Cc: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Crash types
Roadblock first argued that cyclist age made a difference for cycling as
depicted in the Chatsworth video. When challenged for that, he changed to a
statement asserting that family relationships made the difference.
Finally he made a reasonable statement, which is that people ignorant of
traffic cycling fear same direction motor traffic at 35-45 mph.
I trained many cyclists who worked up to making repeated left turns off of
and onto El Camino on the SF Peninsula, Sunnyvale and Santa Clara, carrying
30,000 vehicles a day with 45 mph posted limits. Once they found that my
instruction and their practice worked, they found it exciting. I suppose
that the excitement worked off after the first thrill of discovery.
On 5/29/2012 2:04 PM, Roadblock wrote:
> It's a pretty simple question that parents and women and men of all
> backgrounds and ages answer every single day when considering riding
> bicycles for transportation. The answer seems to be that a ton of
> potential road users are saying no it's not safe to mix it up with
> 35-45mph traffic speeds. Just wondering if you would have your
> vehicular trained and educated kids out there riding in LA? not a
> particulary difficult answer... unless you find it difficult to admit
> that it's scary for a lot of people even when they are edcuated to
> ride vehicular...
>
>
--
John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306
619-644-5481 fore...@johnforester.com
www.johnforester.com
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"CABOforum" group.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
caboforum+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/caboforum?hl=en.
Serge Issakov
The most frightening part of my cycling existence? The handful of minutes
when I ride down Del Amo Blvd. from Prospect to Hawthorne.
Scares me every single time. Would I ever take the lane on that road? Nope,
Roadblock
Seth Davidson
No, I’m talking about eastbound Del Amo Boulevard from Prospect to Hawthorne. Westbound is much worse and I won’t ride it anymore. Too many close calls, and in that direction there’s no bike lane so you have to “take” the lane. It’s hairy and scary.
I’ve seen the videos. They’re very good. But they don’t correlate well with my experiences when I have to take the lane. I quit commuting home on Del Amo and found an alternate neighborhood route because taking the lane during commuting hours was rife with close calls of every kind. Cut-offs, fast braking approaches from the rear, lots of honking, and angry motorists who had to slow from 45-50 down to 23-25. Don is right about the negative impact fast auto speeds have on cycling, mine anyway, and therefore my entire family.
Fast cars scare me. I’ve had too many close calls as a commuter, as a hobby cyclist, etc., but I’m glad this technique is successful for others. Although I’ve never counted them up, a fair number of my bike accident clients get hit while in control of the lane.
Seth
Law Office of Seth Davidson
20355 Hawthorne Blvd., 2nd Floor
Torrance, CA 90503
310-371-2500 (TEL)
424-241-8118 (CELL)
213-402-3049 (FAX)
--
My firm is a federally designated Debt Relief Agency under the United States bankruptcy code that assists people with filing for bankruptcy. This message may contain privileged or confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. The receipt of this email or any documents attached to it do not create an attorney-client relationship with my firm. If you are not the named addressee you should not disclose, disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail by mistake please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system.
Roadblock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=81JHueu7kcE
(Dan, you can watch this one because it contains criticism of substandard bike facilities but then again you might also be offended at my filtering so... proceed with caution.)
Mark Nockleby
This fixation with age is a red herring. If you're old enough to drive a car, you're old enough to ride a bicycle and learn a VC style of riding. Same thing goes if you're still young enough to drive a car (not senile). Women can ride bicycles too. It hardly makes a difference if you're only going 12-14mph instead of 16-18mph. If you're too young to drive or to old to drive, then maybe cycling on that street isn't for you. There's no need to treat all cyclists as children.
On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 3:54:16 PM UTC-7, Roadblock wrote:
There is no way in hell that women, elderly, and kids are going to roll that fast on Lakewood blvd.or any other major arterial especially at night. You guys must be doing at least 16-17mph...
and there are times when you are getting passed by what looks like 35-50mph traffic.You do realize this video looks completely impractical for most of the population right?and No one wants to be wearing all that skin suit crap to ride to their jobs or the market either.HERE is a video of what we should be aiming for:(Dan, close your eyes for this one, I dont want you to be offended)
rb
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
Roadblock
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/caboforum/-/B1FtZXKh6isJ.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to caboforum+...@googlegroups.com.
John Forester
12 mph, or even less.
On 5/29/2012 3:54 PM, Roadblock wrote:
> Hi Serge
>
> Respectfully...
>
> regarding this video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1C3qqhW6Aw
>
> There is no way in hell that women, elderly, and kids are going to
> roll that fast on Lakewood blvd.
> or any other major arterial especially at night. You guys must be
> doing at least 16-17mph...
> and there are times when you are getting passed by what looks like
> 35-50mph traffic.
> You do realize this video looks completely impractical for most of the
> population right?
> and No one wants to be wearing all that skin suit crap to ride to
> their jobs or the market either.
>
> HERE is a video of what we should be aiming for:
> (Dan, close your eyes for this one, I dont want you to be offended)
>
> http://youtu.be/0q-ej1eihoU
>
>
> rb
>
>
Roadblock
-rb
John Forester
continue before turning into the driveway. Had the cyclist come from
behind to overtake the motorist who was obviously preparing for a right
turn, I would have faulted the cyclist. But since both seemed to be
moving approximately side-by-side until the motorist slowed for the
turn, and indicated the turn, and allowed the cyclist to go ahead, I
fail to see the problem.
Neal
Mark Nockleby
But if you're physically capable of riding a bike and mentally capable of understanding the rules of the road, then I don't know what difference age or monkey dust has to do with anything.
Roadblock
sped up past me then slowed down. If you look you can see him creep
over as we approach the intersection. More than a few times ive had
close calls - bike lane or not- and one collision with drivers who
misjudge my speed trying to get ahead and quickly cut right past me.
In this case, I had no escape and a driver who was edging over
"squeezing" me. I cant predict the future or see his eyes whether he
is looking for me or not so a squeeze is indeed a threat of a right
hook.
This driver needed to be educated to wait his turn and merge / turn
right behind me. Not a huge deal breaker and i dont feel like i was a
dick to the guy but its a rude form of driving behaviour akin to
people who creep out of driveways or stop signs as you ride by. You
can never no whether they are about to pull the trigger. Bicycling
Street Smarts (excellent resource!) addresses this kind of scenario.
On May 29, 2012, at 4:42 PM, John Forester <fore...@johnforester.com>
wrote:
Serge Issakov
Bob Shanteau
> I know what you mean - I think we all get in the travel lane from time
> to time just because that is the way to get from A to B.
> And if you are going in the travel lane you need to be agressive.
know and be willing to follow the rules of the road, just like any other
driver. Neither aggressiveness nor strength have nothing to do with it.
CABO supports the right of bicyclists to use the roads as drivers of
vehicles. If you want to advocate for people who feel that bicyclists
cannot or should not act as drivers of vehicles, then you might want to
find a different organization more to your liking.
Bob Shanteau
Roadblock
Roadblock
You guys think it's so freeking simple to be assertive and take the lane because you've been doing it for decades. People in cars are assertive more so than people on bicycles. And with the advance of drunk driving laws and practically no reprocussions for hit and run... people are more assertive behind the wheel than ever - more than they realize. You can't barely touch a gas pedal in a new car these days without instantly going 20mph. THAT's assertiveness without even knowing it! And you expect kids, women and older folks to just "be assertive and take the lane!" yeah... no.
I'm fine with CABO doing the VC thing... but at least join the rest of the cycling world and lets get speeds reduced on our streets to something human scale again. I LOVE chopping it up in traffic and feeling like the assertive 6'8 beast mode rider that I am. I will take the lane and crush a car driver's hopes and dreams of blasting through... But I also want to go on a ride to the park and have a picnic with peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches with a beautiful bicycle babe and not have to constantly look around wondering if she's safe because she isn't as assertive as I am.
Serge Issakov
Look closer. The motorist obviously wasnt parallel to me because he sped up past me then slowed down. If you look you can see him creep over as we approach the intersection. More than a few times ive had close calls - bike lane or not- and one collision with drivers who misjudge my speed trying to get ahead and quickly cut right past me. In this case, I had no escape and a driver who was edging over "squeezing" me. I cant predict the future or see his eyes whether he is looking for me or not so a squeeze is indeed a threat of a right hook.
This driver needed to be educated to wait his turn and merge / turn right behind me. Not a huge deal breaker and i dont feel like i was a dick to the guy but its a rude form of driving behaviour akin to people who creep out of driveways or stop signs as you ride by. You can never no whether they are about to pull the trigger. Bicycling Street Smarts (excellent resource!) addresses this kind of scenario.
DAG
This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=81JHueu7kcE) is actually very instructive in that it shows two errors or crash contributory behaviors from 3:15 to 3:21, that some of us LCIs teach cyclists and motorists to avoid:
1) The cyclist can clearly see the driver is slowing to make an illegal outside the bike lane right turn by his speed change and signal, so we would advise a cyclist in this situation to slow and not drive alongside the scofflaw motorist when reaching the intersection, or better still leave the bike lane per 21208(a)(4) to queue behind the turning motorist to de-conflict the movement (and encourage him to follow the law and enter the bike lane). Even though the motorist would be responsible for hooking the cyclist, the hook can be completely avoided proactively by the cyclist. This hook zone avoidance is similar to door zone avoidance, wherein a cyclist drives outside the door zone to avoid any mistakes for which the motorist is legally responsible, since in both cases, the result of a motorist mistake has serious injury consequences or death to the cyclist versus at worst a slap on the wrist (traffic citation) for the scofflaw motorist.
2) The motorist makes an illegal right turn by not merging into the bike lane as required by 21717 and turning from as close as practicable to the roadway curb as required by 22100 (since the motorist never entered the bike lane we can’t fault him for violating 21209 allowing entrance within 200 feet of the intersection). A motorist should either slow and merge into the bike lane behind the cyclist, or pass early enough to merge into the bike lane with enough time and space to not force the bicyclist into a hazardous situation. Given that this motorist pulled alongside and slightly in front, this is a clear indication that the motorist wasn't planning to make a legal turn, which tells the cyclist that he should not trust that motorist to not hook in to the cyclist.
I would love to use this video in my classes to transportation professionals as a archetypical example of behaviors for both cyclists and motorists to avoid.
Here is the slide I use to convey how motorists should make right turns when bike lanes are present:
I would love to use the clip from 3:10 – 3:30 as the next slide to show how illegal motorist behavior and less than defensive cyclist behavior can set up hook scenarios.
- Dan -
-----Original Message-----
From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roadblock
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:04 PM
To: se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com
Cc: 'Serge Issakov'; fore...@johnforester.com; cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
While everyone is throwing out their vehicular cycling videos I guess I could toss one in that I made near my place...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=81JHueu7kcE
(Dan, you can watch this one because it contains criticism of substandard bike facilities but then again you might also be offended at my filtering so... proceed with caution.)
--
Roadblock
Serge Issakov
Roadblock
Roadblock
Serge Issakov
Look again. At the point he passed me he slows quickly. I'm probably doing 20mph at the point he passes. There is NO WAY I could have had time to react, slow and whip out and pass on the left.
Notice that before he catches me I'm already in the dashed line area of the bike lane THAT is your clue. At that point I had already legally established my rightful position BECUASE for all the driver knows, my position in the dashed area could indicate that I am making a right turn myself.
I braked pretty hard just because I know about the right hook situation from my training and experience. But you can not expect someone who has already entered the dashed line part of the lane traveling at speed to yield to a driver who has not yet entered it.
Serge Issakov
Keep in mind, I'm going about 20mph on a downhill, and you are expecting me to brake, look back, take my eyes off of what unfolding in front of me, scan 2 lanes of traffic, make a decision to lane change across the 2 lane and get into the 1 lane and prepare to pass all in a span of 3 seconds? That's not best practice. Better to slow down and prepare for a quick stop or quick turn. No sudden moves just keep control which I did.
DAG
If that video were shot by anyone else, including me, John Forester, Serge, etc., I would have written the same critique. When I analyze video, whether shot by me or anyone else, I do my best to objectively analyze it and “forget” who is in it and just look at the scenario and behavior. And I’ve been there, when a motorist is trying to pull slightly ahead at an intersection when I’m at the left edge of a mostly door zone bike lane, and I’ll go into something more like a quick stop to deny him the hook opportunity. It’s no fun when a motorist sets us up as “hook bait”.
On the subject of fault. Don did nothing illegal, whereas the motorist was totally at legal fault for making an illegal turn (he was already into the intersection as Don passed) without ever entering the bike lane, a clear violation of 21717. The other point, aside from legal fault is that the cyclist can work to avoid the hook by slowing and or leaving the bike lane to get behind the motorist. It’s not fair that the cyclist has to lose energy, maneuver, and have to re-accelerate as a penalty for the motorist’s idiotic behavior, but in my professional opinion, that is to be preferred over allowing the motorist a clean shot at a hook turn smackdown. Here’s what a hook turn of a similar type that was developing in Don’s video looks like when the motorist (also making an illegal right turn by violating 21717 and 22101) continues with the turn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhMoE2flLqg
Not every motorist that pulls alongside and ahead of a cyclist will wait for the cyclist to pass (as occurred in the video); some continue the turn and kill and injure cyclists. The main problem, and why motorists are required to enter bike lanes to make right turns, is to drive the car to the edge to physically prevent a cyclist from passing on the right. Many cyclists and motorists are not aware of the law and think it’s improper to enter a bike lane to make turns. This ignorance, born of both poor education and poor enforcement, kills cyclists, and I along with other educators on the CABO board work to make cyclists and professionals aware of these problems, so less people will be injured or killed in the future.
From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roadblock
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 6:27 PM
To: Serge Issakov
Cc: fore...@johnforester.com; se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com; cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
I slowed up significantly and was prepared to stop or make a qucik turn to avoid anything. To get behind the guy would have meant braking hard scanning back and then launching into the lane (potentially getting rear ended by other fast moving vehicles blasting through as seen seconds before in the video.) That would have been potentially deadly. The best option was to slow down and prepare for the quick stop or the quick turn. I chose the quick stop. Part of him squeezing me was I suspect his annoyance that I had slowed down so much.
--
Serge Issakov
Serge
Sent from my iPhone
DAG
travelling, it looks much more like he made a hook turn. However, there's
no way that a cyclist in that scenario could assume he wasn't going to turn
at the intersection similar to the Market at Octavia crash.
-----Original Message-----
From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Serge Issakov
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 7:36 PM
To: Dan.Gu...@Charter.Net
Cc: <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
Roadblock
Roadblock
I would never advise to make quick lane change decisions. I didnt have enough time to consider it so I kept my eyes on the road and slowed to a reasonable and safe speed to be able to deal with the right hook should it have occurred.
Roadblock
Sauerwald Mark
From: Serge Issakov <serge....@gmail.com>
To: road...@midnightridazz.com
Cc: "fore...@johnforester.com" <fore...@johnforester.com>; "se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com" <se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com>; "cabo...@googlegroups.com" <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
Roadblock
Serge Issakov
Serge Issakov
Mark Nockleby
Neal
know and be willing to follow the rules of the road, just like any other
I say anything
as·ser·tive/əˈsərtiv/
| Adjective: |
|
ag·gres·sive/əˈgresiv/
| Adjective: |
|
You say neether and I say nyther,
Eether, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!
You like tomato and I like tomahto,
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
Let's call the whole thing off!
Roadblock
Roadblock
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/caboforum/-/ab2LFHGwHpAJ.
DAG
Excellent hook avoidance! Though I would have probably stayed behind the motorist, and if he didn’t move, I’ve been known to ride slightly to the left and wave into his left side view mirror to let him know I’m not on his right side. Failing that I have been known to tap on the rear quarter panel to get the driver’s attention.
From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Nockleby
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:00 PM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Sauerwald Mark
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
I have a similar video.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/caboforum/-/ab2LFHGwHpAJ.
Serge Issakov
Serge
Sent from my iPhone
Bob Shanteau
> [Would] traffic circles ... solve all of these intersection conflicts?
If you mean roundabouts, yes. But only if you use the full lane. If you
ride at the edge, you're still liable to get right hooked at every exit.
The main advantage of roundabouts is that the slow speeds result in
better merging behavior (and a much higher likelihood of yielding to
pedestrians in crosswalks).
Bob Shanteau
Serge Issakov
Staying right when going straight violates destination positioning and is asking for trouble.
Serge
Sent from my iPhone
Mark Nockleby
To Dan:
The driver passed me with enough time and space to merge into the bike lane and make his right turn (I even stopped peddling and slowed down to accommodate that). I did not expect the driver to come to a complete stop 30 feet from the intersection, and dare me to pass him on the right. If I had the space to move to his left, I would have done so... instead I just stopped to let him figure out what he was doing.
>Excellent hook avoidance! Though I would have probably stayed behind the motorist, and if he didn’t
>move, I’ve been known to ride slightly to the left and wave into his left side view mirror to let him
>know I’m not on his right side. Failing that I have been known to tap on the rear quarter panel to get
>the driver’s attention.
traffic circles would solve all of these intersection conflicts no?
The stupid thing was (while this wasn't exactly mid-block) it was far enough a way from the intersection, that if he had simply drove forward instead of coming to a complete stop, I could have moved to the left and passed the right-turning vehicle on the left instead of refusing to take his dare to pass on the right.
And I got a a round-a-bout video too (the city of Santa Cruz has since removed the bike lane directing bicycle traffic onto the sidewalk).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nocklebeast/5820052690/in/set-72157603159493225/
On May 29, 2012, at 10:00 PM, Mark Nockleby wrote:
I have a similar video.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nocklebeast/5722751859/
On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 8:13:11 PM UTC-7, Mark wrote:Here is another way that the whole scenario could have played out....Mark
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/caboforum/-/ab2LFHGwHpAJ.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
DAG
allow cyclists to avoid hook turns by leaving bike lanes on driveway and
intersection approaches. One of the downsides to bike lanes or even wide
lanes (due to 21202, though it also has identical exception (a)(4)), is that
it greatly increases the operational complexity of cycling compared to
controlling a narrow lane. In the former case the cyclist has to make
frequent leftward merges to avoid crossing conflicts and then merge back to
the bike lane or FTR position in the wide lane, whereas the cyclist
controlling a narrow lane need only travel in a straight line.
-----Original Message-----
From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Serge Issakov
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:56 PM
To: road...@midnightridazz.com
Cc: fore...@johnforester.com; se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com;
cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
DAG
Yes, I understood what you did, and that the motorist was in a state of brain freeze. I was simply pointing out that I tend to move to the left side of the vehicle so it is easier for the driver to see that I am not on his right.
From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Nockleby
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 11:02 PM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to caboforum+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/caboforum?hl=en.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/caboforum/-/Q-2OOoQHruwJ.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to caboforum+...@googlegroups.com.
Roadblock
On May 29, 2012, at 11:09 PM, DAG wrote:
> While not every cyclist takes advantage of 21208(a)(4), that exception does
> allow cyclists to avoid hook turns by leaving bike lanes on driveway and
> intersection approaches. One of the downsides to bike lanes or even wide
> lanes (due to 21202, though it also has identical exception (a)(4)), is that
> it greatly increases the operational complexity of cycling compared to
> controlling a narrow lane. In the former case the cyclist has to make
> frequent leftward merges to avoid crossing conflicts and then merge back to
> the bike lane or FTR position in the wide lane, whereas the cyclist
> controlling a narrow lane need only travel in a straight line.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:56 PM
> To: road...@midnightridazz.com
> Cc: fore...@johnforester.com; se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com;
Serge Issakov
My issue with getting into the lane at fast intersections on fast streets is that the intersection is where cars seem to increase their speeds in order to make the light.
One of the downsides to bike lanes or even wide
lanes (due to 21202, though it also has identical exception (a)(4)), is that
it greatly increases the operational complexity of cycling compared to
controlling a narrow lane. In the former case the cyclist has to make
frequent leftward merges to avoid crossing conflicts and then merge back to
the bike lane or FTR position in the wide lane, whereas the cyclist
controlling a narrow lane need only travel in a straight line.
Daniel Gutierrez
Serge replied: "That's true if you don't have a mirror...
... and it's also true if you do have a mirror. The operational complexity I described has nothing to do with a mirror; it is intrinsic to the geometry, operating rules and the need for cyclists to avoid crossing conflicts. While using a mirror to more frequently rear scan, can help the cyclist manage the complexity (and as Serge well know, I use a mirror, especially when doing video work), such use does not change the inherent complexity.
- Dan Gutierrez -
Serge Issakov
--
Roadblock
Daniel Gutierrez
In other words, whether you have a mirror or not, has nothing to do with the stripes on the road and the number of cars making turns, or pulling out.
- Dan Gutierrez -
From: Serge Issakov <serge....@gmail.com>
To: Daniel.A....@aero.org,
Cc: CABOforum <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
Date: 05/30/2012 09:26 AM
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
Serge Issakov
Roadblock
Michael Graff
You characterized my behaviour as "cowering" i take offense to that.
Serge Issakov
Serge Issakov
Seth Davidson
Has the advocacy for vehicular cycling increased the number of people cycling? Has it changed the motoring/cycling public’s perception of bicycles and their place in traffic? With all of the years devoted to advocating for our proper place in the roadway, do motorists generally accept it? Do cyclists?
I really applaud people for finding what works for them. I admire people who can assertively control a lane without fear, and who, through effective body language, can tame the Silverado with a grill guard, a toolbox, a pipe bumper, and a decal that says “Kill ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out.”
My skill set in this regard is lacking and I’m fearful and I admit it. Afraid is how I feel when I’m trying to negotiate fast commuting traffic, a skill that many of the CABO VC advocates have mastered. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, and on a bicycle our fears, both rational and irrational, play a very big role in how we ride. I’m unconvinced that those fears can be mastered for people like me, no matter how rational and level-headed the explanation. The feeling of 3,000 lbs. of metal coming up behind me at 50 mph will always frighten me.
What remains for those of us for whom this type of riding is a terrifying option? Resigning ourselves to being a permanent gutter bunny? Or is it one of those things where we just say, “You don’t have what it takes for this mode of transportation?” Or is infrastructure really something that might work? It’s perverse, but even the tiny little strip of a too-narrow bike lane on Del Amo gives me comfort as I zip along at 30+ coming down from Prospect. It’s probably irrational to be comforted by that white line and its 18 inches of bike lane, but when the SUV’s with the caffeinated moms are whipping by to get junior to West High on time, I feel safe. And that feeling of safety causes me to venture forth rather than drive my car.
As an aside, but somewhat on point, I would never let my kids get in 35-50 mph traffic on their bikes. What options do they have?
Law Office of Seth Davidson
20355 Hawthorne Blvd., 2nd Floor
Torrance, CA 90503
310-371-2500 (TEL)
424-241-8118 (CELL)
213-402-3049 (FAX)
--
My firm is a federally designated Debt Relief Agency under the United States bankruptcy code that assists people with filing for bankruptcy. This message may contain privileged or confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. The receipt of this email or any documents attached to it do not create an attorney-client relationship with my firm. If you are not the named addressee you should not disclose, disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail by mistake please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system.
From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Serge Issakov
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 11:12 AM
To: Roadblock
Cc: DAG; fore...@johnforester.com; se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com; cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
Suit yourself, but until you recognize the behavior depicted in that video to be cowering, you will probably continue to engage in it, and will continue to invite the very bullying and disrespect you seek to avoid.
--
Seth Davidson
Well, I’m for it, whether there are any measurable results or not. Anything that gets people involved in cycling, talking about cycling, or advocating for cycling is a plus. I thought that the push behind vehicular cycling had been around for a long time, but on this, like so many other topics, it’s just a vague impression.
I certainly hear Long Beach being bruited as a great place for bikes, something I never, ever heard even three years ago. And I dig the sharrows in Hermosa.
Law Office of Seth Davidson
20355 Hawthorne Blvd., 2nd Floor
Torrance, CA 90503
310-371-2500 (TEL)
424-241-8118 (CELL)
213-402-3049 (FAX)
--
My firm is a federally designated Debt Relief Agency under the United States bankruptcy code that assists people with filing for bankruptcy. This message may contain privileged or confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. The receipt of this email or any documents attached to it do not create an attorney-client relationship with my firm. If you are not the named addressee you should not disclose, disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail by mistake please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system.
From: Serge Issakov [mailto:serge....@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:13 PM
To: se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com
Cc: Roadblock; DAG; fore...@johnforester.com; cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Seth Davidson <se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com> wrote:
Has the advocacy for vehicular cycling increased the number of people cycling?
Has it changed the motoring/cycling public’s perception of bicycles and their place in traffic? With all of the years devoted to advocating for our proper place in the roadway, do motorists generally accept it? Do cyclists?
What advocacy for vehicular cycling?
With the recent advent of sharrows and BMUFL signs in CA, advocacy for bicycle driving is just beginning.
My personal view is that there is more awareness and acceptance of the idea than there was just five years ago. But, it's way to early to look for increases in numbers of people cycling from this. As we learned this week, we still have LCIs who don't understand the basic concepts, like destination positioning, well enough to put them in practice to avoid right hooks.
I really applaud people for finding what works for them. I admire people who can assertively control a lane without fear, and who, through effective body language, can tame the Silverado with a grill guard, a toolbox, a pipe bumper, and a decal that says “Kill ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out.”
My skill set in this regard is lacking and I’m fearful and I admit it. Afraid is how I feel when I’m trying to negotiate fast commuting traffic, a skill that many of the CABO VC advocates have mastered. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, and on a bicycle our fears, both rational and irrational, play a very big role in how we ride. I’m unconvinced that those fears can be mastered for people like me, no matter how rational and level-headed the explanation. The feeling of 3,000 lbs. of metal coming up behind me at 50 mph will always frighten me.
What remains for those of us for whom this type of riding is a terrifying option? Resigning ourselves to being a permanent gutter bunny? Or is it one of those things where we just say, “You don’t have what it takes for this mode of transportation?” Or is infrastructure really something that might work? It’s perverse, but even the tiny little strip of a too-narrow bike lane on Del Amo gives me comfort as I zip along at 30+ coming down from Prospect. It’s probably irrational to be comforted by that white line and its 18 inches of bike lane, but when the SUV’s with the caffeinated moms are whipping by to get junior to West High on time, I feel safe. And that feeling of safety causes me to venture forth rather than drive my car.
As an aside, but somewhat on point, I would never let my kids get in 35-50 mph traffic on their bikes. What options do they have?
We need to all advocate more for separate paths, bike boulevards, sharrows, and traffic calming. The model of platoons of cars racing from one red light to the next is silly.
Serge
jimbaross
We all should have the right and ability to travel with safety and efficiency by our chosen mode of travel (lawful ones). I would like to increase everyone's capability to travel by improving facilities AND behaviors, but I can't see how realistically to make all public roads navigable / usable / comfortable for all humans of all capabilities by any mode all the time.
We have to chose based on - context, space, resources, priorities, time, etc.
Bicycling education has helped the people I have encountered expand.their capabilities, range, and frequency of bicycling, but they and I and no one can use a bike everywhere with complete safety. CABO and other advocacy efforts are to protect and improve bicycling for transportation and recreation.
Do you have a proposal, plan, or idea to help us?
Jim Baross
San Diego, CA
Sent from hard-to-type-on smart phone.
: -)
From: "Seth Davidson" <se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com>
To: <serge....@gmail.com>, "'Roadblock'" <road...@midnightridazz.com>
Cc: "'DAG'" <dan.gu...@charter.net>, <fore...@johnforester.com>, <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
Date: Wed, May 30, 2012 6:02 pm
Has the advocacy for vehicular cycling increased the number of people cycling? Has it changed the motoring/cycling public’s perception of bicycles and their place in traffic? With all of the years devoted to advocating for our proper place in the roadway, do motorists generally accept it? Do cyclists?
I really applaud people for finding what works for them. I admire people who can assertively control a lane without fear, and who, through effective body language, can tame the Silverado with a grill guard, a toolbox, a pipe bumper, and a decal that says “Kill ‘em all, let God sort ‘em out.”
My skill set in this regard is lacking and I’m fearful and I admit it. Afraid is how I feel when I’m trying to negotiate fast commuting traffic, a skill that many of the CABO VC advocates have mastered. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, and on a bicycle our fears, both rational and irrational, play a very big role in how we ride. I’m unconvinced that those fears can be mastered for people like me, no matter how rational and level-headed the explanation. The feeling of 3,000 lbs. of metal coming up behind me at 50 mph will always frighten me.
What remains for those of us for whom this type of riding is a terrifying option? Resigning ourselves to being a permanent gutter bunny? Or is it one of those things where we just say, “You don’t have what it takes for this mode of transportation?” Or is infrastructure really something that might work? It’s perverse, but even the tiny little strip of a too-narrow bike lane on Del Amo gives me comfort as I zip along at 30+ coming down from Prospect. It’s probably irrational to be comforted by that white line and its 18 inches of bike lane, but when the SUV’s with the caffeinated moms are whipping by to get junior to West High on time, I feel safe. And that feeling of safety causes me to venture forth rather than drive my car.
As an aside, but somewhat on point, I would never let my kids get in 35-50 mph traffic on their bikes. What options do they have?
Law Office of Seth Davidson
20355 Hawthorne Blvd., 2nd Floor
Torrance, CA 90503
310-371-2500 (TEL)
424-241-8118 (CELL)
213-402-3049 (FAX)
--
My firm is a federally designated Debt Relief Agency under the United States bankruptcy code that assists people with filing for bankruptcy. This message may contain privileged or confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. The receipt of this email or any documents attached to it do not create an attorney-client relationship with my firm. If you are not the named addressee you should not disclose, disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail by mistake please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system.
From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Serge Issakov
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 11:12 AM
To: Roadblock
Cc: DAG; fore...@johnforester.com; se...@sethdavidsonlaw.com; cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [CABOforum] Fear of traffic and ignorant people
Suit yourself, but until you recognize the behavior depicted in that video to be cowering, you will probably continue to engage in it, and will continue to invite the very bullying and disrespect you seek to avoid.
Without knowing the objective details of the incidents to which you refer, I can't comment on them.
Serge
On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Roadblock <road...@midnightridazz.com> wrote:
You characterized my behaviour as "cowering" i take offense to that.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to caboforum+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/caboforum?hl=en.
Pete van Nuys
Complete Streets is state law, aimed at making all-mode accommodation planning policy in every city.
Encouragement through infrastructure will help, but until there's enough money to lay special pavement for all citizens who choose not to use public roadways,
Education will be required to help them be safe,
Enforcement will be required to prove legal cyclists belong, and
Evaluation will be the required cornerstone of quality assurance.
I hate to admit that the League got it mostly right, but they did.
What's lacking is a vision to inspire unity among advocates; bickering taps our energy.
We need to craft that vision, city by city. Otherwise we leave it up to Sacramento and a one-size-fits-none solution.
Regards,
Pete van Nuys, Exec. Dir.
Orange County Bicycle Coalition
LCI 2060
John Forester
There's one part of the state-wide program that cyclists need to be particularly concerned about: the policy with which cyclists are treated. The CS law requires accommodation for travelers of all ages, although the CalTrans CS website, while really only under construction, seems to play down the "all ages" requirement. The "all ages" requirement for cyclists could mean "one system capable of being used by cyclists of all ages", which would boil down to sidewalk cycling as the lowest common denominator, or it could mean two different systems defined by different skill sets. That is, one system for cyclists who choose to operate according to the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles and one system for cyclists who choose not to operate in that way. If this distinction is not made clear early on, I fear we will receive a system which is designed for no particular set of skills and in which, because of the pressure of the majority, will squeeze out cyclists who obey the standard rules of the road. One definite feature of the Complete Streets program must exist: that is, there must be no law that prohibits cyclists from operating according to the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles. That feature requires the repeal of the two laws that do so: the far-right law, CVC 21202, and the bike-lane law, CVC 21208. Without repeal of those two laws, the Complete Streets program is too likely to fail to meet its requirement of accommodating cyclists of all ages.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group.
To post to this group, send email to cabo...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to caboforum+...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/caboforum?hl=en.
-- John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer 7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306 619-644-5481 fore...@johnforester.com www.johnforester.com
petev...@cox.net
The pressure to "do something" combined with financial restraints imposed by reality can easily result in bogus facilities. If biased in favor of the motorized majority, probably dangerous mixing of peds, sidewalk cyclists, and faster hipsters and traffic averse club cyclits-- like the Dana Point cattle chute.
If biased in favor of non-motorized, could be over zealous taking of travel lanes which produces a backlash. It's all political and the pendulum does swing.
Just my nature, but I want to see us proceed carefully and create some home run accommodations that win support of the business communities and voters.
---- John Forester <fore...@johnforester.com> wrote:
--
Regards,
Pete van Nuys
Executive Director
John Forester
in the matter of bicycle transportation will produce the lowest common
denominator program, because these groups have only a perverse knowledge
of bicycle transportation engineering. Up to the present time, CalTrans
has administered what one might call a least-harmful program based on
bike lanes and paths well away from traffic. In short, control by
engineering standards that have some basis. But the present advocacy
effort, and the Complete Streets law, is directed at encouraging
skill-less cycling, what I suppose ought to be classed as "bias[ing] in
favor of non-motorized". I think that we well-informed cyclists may be
able, as before, to get the worst ideas rejected, but, again as before,
I think that we won't be able to get good ideas accepted. That is
because well-informed cyclists have such a different view about traffic
cycling than the rest of the population. Therefore, I think that it is
most important to advocate the good idea that those cyclists who choose
to operate according to the rules of the road for drivers of vehicles be
not merely allowed (by repeal of CVC 21202 and 21208) but encouraged.
Neal
Hello Serge, Bob, and All,
You are correct.
The connation for aggressive is different as compared to assertive and especially in the CVC environment.
While assertive is a synonym for aggressive (see attached chart) after reading the CVC I see they use assertive and I would express myself better with assertive when addressing cycling activities in a non-competitive environment.
Thanks for the heads-up …….. J
Cheers,
Neal
From: Serge Issakov [mailto:serge....@gmail.com]
Sent: 31 May, 2012 11:32
To: nea...@gmail.com
Cc: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Aggression vs assertiveness - not semantic nitpicking
WAS: Re: Fear of traffic and ignorant people
Aggressiveness has a negative connotation that assertiveness does not.
Characterizing someone as being aggressive usually implies wrongdoing, or at least undesirable behavior.
It's a critical distinction to know, understand and appreciate that safe and comfortable cycling in traffic requires assertiveness, but not aggressiveness.
Serge
Cheers,
Neal
On Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:01:36 PM UTC-7, Neal wrote:
Hello Bob and All,No, if you're going to use a full lane, you need to be assertive and to
know and be willing to follow the rules of the road, just like any other
driver. Neither aggressiveness nor strength have nothing [sic] [anything] to do with it.You say nothingI say anything
You say 'assertive' .........as·ser·tive/əˈsərtiv/
Adjective:
Having or showing a confident and forceful personality: "patients should be more assertive with their doctors". I say 'aggressive' ........ag·gres·sive/əˈgresiv/
Adjective:
- Ready or likely to attack or confront; characterized by or resulting from aggression.
- Pursuing one's aims and interests forcefully, sometimes unduly so: "an aggressive businessman".
You say eether and I say eyether,
You say neether and I say nyther,
Eether, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!
You like potato and I like potahto,
You like tomato and I like tomahto,
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
Let's call the whole thing off!Cheers,Neal+1 mph Faster