Shame (was: Re: [CABOforum] NYC On-Steet Bicycle Network Success)

[Tim Oey]

Shame on both sides for character attacks, insults, and mischaracterizations. This style of communication makes it easy for motor lobbyists to get their way and ignore bicycle facilities.

Please figure out how to communicate constructively (all sides) and let's move on!

(This sort of sniping caused the former Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition discussion list to be terminated...)

Sincerely,
Tim

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 12:58 PM, John Forester <fore...@johnforester.com> wrote:

Roadblock deserves the treatment being handed out to him.

On 5/29/2012 12:36 PM, Roadblock wrote:

oh wow what a surprise more ad hominem attacks from Dan Gutierrez... ho hum... this is really ruining my day.  

Q: How can you tell when Don is writing factually incorrect statements about CABO?

A: His fingers are typing.

Frankly, I have no desire to perform advocacy work with a person who has no problem repeatedly promulgating easily disprovable factually incorrect statements as a propaganda campaign against CABO.  I question his cognitive abilities and ethics, and would never trust him to be truthful in working with state and local agencies.  CABO has a long history of building trust, by working honestly and cooperatively with a wide variety of state and local agencies, and other advocacy organizations, and as President, I intend to keep it that way.

[Daniel Gutierrez]

Equating my calling Don on his factually incorrect statements and contradictions is an even worse personal insult than anything he has levied at me, so now you are guilty of what you accuse us of doing.  Welcome to the club!

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[Roadblock]

Dan takes anything and anyone that disagrees with him and twists it into an alleged ad hominem attack...

I said I would be an adult if Dan agreed to be one. He is subtle, but the attacks continue and as much as I'm trying to restrain myself I can't help but throw in jabs right back. 

Now I'm getting personal emails from him with ad hominem attacks calling me useless. It doesnt change my resolve it only strengthens it.

I admit, I suck at scientific and advocacy vernacular, but I refuse to accept that because I am not on the same intellectual level as Gutierrez and Forester, that my experience and opinion don't matter. I'm also self depricating enough that I accept my short comings and am willing to work to become a better advocate for safe streets.

I've got more experience in fact than Gutierrez in that, at least I have traveled and ridden a bicycle across the Netherlands. I can give personal experience regarding the safest most comprehensive infrastructure that I know of in the world. Dan can't and in fact has said in the past that he REFUSES to experience it. A scientist would WANT to experience it if only to have a completely formed opinion it would seem to me... but then again, the last time I was in a physics or calculus class was in high school, I dont remember much I admit. Sorry everyone. People like me ride bicycles please don't be too harsh I'm just an average commuter in the city of Los Angeles.

[Daniel Gutierrez]

Don,
I have no interest in your continued attacks and accusations.

To all,
Bringing personal email to the full list is yet another breach of communication protocol.  Also note that in the personal email Don cites, I did not call him "useless"; this is yet another factually incorrect statement from him.  Sadly, he can't even summon up the decency to quote what I wrote.  Suffice it to say that he is not a person that I would consider trustworthy.

- Dan -

From:        Roadblock <road...@midnightridazz.com>
To:        tim...@gmail.com,
Cc:        cabo...@googlegroups.com
Date:        05/29/2012 01:20 PM
Subject:        Re: Shame (was: Re: [CABOforum] NYC On-Steet Bicycle Network Success)
Sent by:        cabo...@googlegroups.com

---

[Neal]

Hello Roadblock and All,

 

Dan is just a bit feisty and as you can see below:

"....... and other advocacy organizations, and as President, I intend to keep it that way."

 

From the current CABO website: 

 

 

Officers

President: Jim Baross

• Vice President: Brian DeSousa
• Secretary: Serge Issakov
• Treasurer: Al Forkosh

District Directors

Our district boundaries mirror the Caltrans districts, refer to the map below.

• District 1: Vacant
• District 2: Vacant
• District 3: David Takemoto-Weerts
• District 4 (North): Bert Hill
• District 4 (East): Michael Graff
• District 4 (West): Paul Wendt
• District 4 (South): Bob Sutterfield
• District 5: Leo Jed
• District 6: Nicholas Paladino
• District 7: Dan Gutierrez
• District 8: Michelle Vester
• District 9: Vacant
• District 10: Vacant
• District 11: Serge Issakov
• District 12 (North): Brian DeSousa
• District 12 (South): Don Harvey

Other Directors

Government Relations: Alan Wachtel

• Traffic Engineering Liaison: Bob Shanteau

Apparently Dan was recenly elected President of CABO and is feeling the heavy responsibility of defending his turf.

 

Roadblock it looks like you can give as good as you get so enjoy the scrum ......  :)

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Neal

 

+1 mph Faster

 

[Roadblock]

Ok then just stop communicating with me personally I'm not into it, it feels like harassment. I didnt ask for a personal email from you especially one that continues to berate me. I'd rather you just berate me in public.

[Daniel Gutierrez]

Harassment?  Are you kidding.?  You're the guy who accused all of us at CABO of causing deaths:

"CABO is respeonsible for deaths on th roads by blocking attempts to provide safe space for cyclists."

That's harassment!  And it is not factually correct as I and others have pointed out previously/  Regarding private communication; I sent you one private message and you announced it publicly and incorrectly, so who is the victim here?  I must admit that I've never before met someone who attacks as virulently as you do while contradicting himself, and when called on it, claims victimhood.  Fascinating stuff, but it's not related to advocacy.  Why don't you stop communicating to me publicly?  I find it even more harassing and insulting than anything you might post privately.  

[Roadblock]

You are a representative of the public appointed to a Cal Trans board or at least to a body (CABO) that has influence in decisions that affect the public's ability to get facilities they feel are safe. CABO is known in the advocacy community here in LA as the group with undue political influence that blocks cycling facilities that according to your own criteria are not safe but according to others is. Who is right? Neither side has the definitive "facts" but it sure is a personal pleasure to ride in cities that provide space on the roads for human powered travel so I'm going with my gut and oh yeah the safety record of the Netherlands is pretty good too.

[Tim Oey]

Maybe this was before your time. Around 10/28/2008 there was dissatisfaction with a list that was called "SVBC" due to people becoming unruly on it. SVBC was uncomfortable with the list having this name given what was happening on the list. On 10/31/2008 the list was renamed and distanced from SVBC. There is no longer a public SVBC centered discussion list (this is the "termination" part). The original list instead was switched over to a general list called "South Bay Cycling" at bi...@svbcbikes.org. All this info was shared on the list at that time, no inside info needed.

The most recent failure of the South Bay Cycling list as of 1/1/2012 is unfortunate. I do not know the cause. At the moment I cannot seem to find a way to rejoin the list "bi...@svbcbikes.org" so I no longer know if it is functioning anymore or not.

Regardless, many lists end up succumbing to unhealthy flame wars -- a harmonic wave of negativity. It is too bad that people are unable to communicate more politely and productively and choose instead to take umbrage at many perceived slights (intended or unintended).  Plus there are often trolls on many lists that degrade conversations.

These are all well known phenomena dating back to the heydays of Usenet in the 1980s. Nonetheless, such behavior is reprehensible and ill-mannered. Email lists are powerful tools but often misused.

Cheers,
Tim

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 1:20 PM, <Pa...@enet.com> wrote:

Tim,
You say "this sort of sniping caused the former SVBC discussion list to be
terminated".

Do you have any inside information that this is true?

From everything I've heard...officially as well as unofficially, the list
was accidentally allowed to lapse due to oversights by those responsible
(who admittedly, didn't consider it a high priority).

The list has been reinstated, although the list of all original subscribers
have evidently been lost, so only those who have subsequently requested to
be subscribed to it are on it...so has much less traffic than the original
one.

Is your statement supposition?...or do you have inside information?

Thanks,
Paul Wendt



            Tim Oey
            <tim...@gmail.com
            >                                                          To
            Sent by:                  cabo...@googlegroups.com
            caboforum@googleg                                          cc
            roups.com
                                                                  Subject

                                      Shame (was: Re: [CABOforum] NYC

            05/29/2012 01:08          On-Steet Bicycle Network Success)
            PM


            Please respond to
            tim...@gmail.com

[Pa...@enet.com]

Thanks Tim.

I've actually been on the SVBC list since I believe 1998. You are right
that there's been several obnoxious people on the list over the years, and
probably a flame war or two. I remember when the list was changed from
"[SVBC]" to "[South Bay Cycling]" and the disclaimer was put on the footer
"not monitored by SVBC" or something to that effect. I don't recall that
this was due to obnoxious postings, but more with the direction that SVBC
leadership wanted to take things. In my recollection, forums had been
recently added to the SVBC website, and SVBC leadership believed that it
would be more appropriate if people used the forums instead of the email
list. I don't believe that in fact, there was ever a significant move of
discussions to forums, but since I never participated in the forums, I
obviously can't know how much usage they got.

I also don't recall that the postings on the list or the content changed
substantively at that time.

The last email I have from the general SVBC list (South Bay Cycling) was I
believe 12/1/2011. It appears that the list was hosted by Dreamhost.com,
and my guess (from the email responses to my queries) is that someone
forgot to pay the bill to Dreamhost.com, and Dreamhost terminated the list
with extreme predudice (in this case, meaning that the list of subscribers
was completely gone with no recovery option). This is an educated guess,
and IS supposition on my part.

The new list is "[SVBC general]", and started up sometime early this year.
I don't know if one can sign up online...I contacted SVBC staffer Colin
Heyne to get on it. If there's not info on how to get on the list on the
SVBC website, I'll be happy to send anyone contact info to get on
it...simply reply privately to this email...

Cheers,

Paul Wendt



Tim Oey
<tim...@gmail.com
> To

Pa...@enet.com, Cabo Forum
05/29/2012 09:31 <cabo...@googlegroups.com>
PM cc

Subject
Re: SVBC list [Re: Shame (was: Re:
[CABOforum] NYC On-Steet Bicycle
Network Success)]

[Alan Wachtel]

Pa...@enet.com wrote:

> The last email I have from the general SVBC list (South Bay Cycling)
> was I believe 12/1/2011. It appears that the list was hosted by
> Dreamhost.com, and my guess (from the email responses to my queries)
> is that someone forgot to pay the bill to Dreamhost.com, and Dreamhost
> terminated the list with extreme predudice (in this case, meaning that
> the list of subscribers was completely gone with no recovery option).
> This is an educated guess, and IS supposition on my part.
>
> The new list is "[SVBC general]", and started up sometime early this
> year. I don't know if one can sign up online...I contacted SVBC
> staffer Colin Heyne to get on it. If there's not info on how to get on
> the list on the SVBC website, I'll be happy to send anyone contact
> info to get on it...simply reply privately to this email...

The information I have is that the account was paid up, but one of
Dreamhost's primary mail servers went down, and somehow the list never
came back up.

The new list is a Google group. You can sign up at
http://bikesiliconvalley.org/discussion or
https://groups.google.com/a/bikesiliconvalley.org/group/svbcbikes/topics, using
either your bikesiliconvalley.org account, if you have one (not your old
SVBC list account) or your Google groups account. SVBC hasn't publicized
this well. There are no links from the home page announcing either the
demise of the old list or the existence of the new one.

~ Alan