I know it is probably a mistake to comment on a CABO post, but a recent one by Pete Van Nuys caught my attention.
It is not surprising that the Vehicular Cycling perspective gets such little traction these days.
Nothing like insulting the people who you seek to persuade and smearing leaders (charlatan?) who would seem to share some common goals with you, while getting there via a different approach.
My father worked for Birmingham Small Arms in the late 1930's in Britain, back when BSA still produced bicycles. He had a custom-made bike and rode to work. When I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s he gave us Raleigh bikes and were taught how to ride and look after them. But I gather that he was ignorant and I remain a child when it comes to the one true way to ride a bicycle. And I of course only 'masquerade' as an advocate for bicyclists.
And your assessment of me and my father solely because I see considerable value in segregated bike lanes and other cycling facilities.
It is amazing that people who are so technically knowledgeable are so inept when it comes to dealing with and persuading fellow cyclists. Or people in general, for that matter.
Guys, and it seems like you are all guys, have a look in the (rhetorical) mirror.
Like what you see? If you don't, change. If you do, then you are probably beyond help and destined to remain frustrated and stew in your own juices, while alienating most everyone except your own small group.
Ron Richings Vancouver, BC Canada
pete van nuys <petevann...@cox.net> Oct 13 07:06PM -0700 ^
Jim, that's a great point. And isn't "taking back the street" the real goal of all this-- complete streets, increased mode share, bike/ped plans?
How do we get sidetracked with images of lanes, boxes, side paths, etc.?
Because there is no healthy bicycle culture in America. Just a juvenile perspective given today's adults in their childhood by their equally ignorant parents.
This dysfunctional culture provides fertile ground for charlatans like Roger Geller who masquerade as advocates for bicyclists.
So when you spend $-hundreds of thousands to shut down the streets in one of the world's greatest cities, is it any wonder America's overgrown children come out to play.
-- Regards,
Pete van Nuys Executive Director Orange County Bicycle Coalition LCI # 2060 949 492 5737
The issue of whether or not Roger Geller is a charlatan is one of scientific evidence. The evidence leads one to conclude that he is. Geller promotes dangerous cycling for the purpose of making bicycle transportation popular.
Ron, you claim that you "see considerable value in segregated bike lanes and other cycling facilities." Let's leave the bike parking racks out of this; there's no principled objection to such items. You named "segregated bike lanes" as having some value. I simply state that there is no known cycling facility officially named a "segregated bike lane." It should be no wonder about the reaction of well-informed cyclists when we have to deal, day after day, year after year, with much the same arguments made by poorly-informed people who believe their own misinformation.
I'm sorry, Ron, but those who hope to make a transportationally significant switch from motor to bicycle transport by promoting incompetent cycling on bikeways have never produced a reasonable scientific or engineering analysis of the effect of their proposals on the safety and convenience of cyclists. They have always avoided such analyses, either because they can't understand them or because they know that such an analysis would disgrace their program. Instead, they base their program on popular superstition, which, being justly described as superstition, is demonstrably opposed to factual knowledge.
That's the way that bicycle transportation affairs have operated for thirty five years, science against superstition, with superstition empowered by government and promoted by bicycle advocates.
> I know it is probably a mistake to comment on a CABO post, but a recent one > by Pete Van Nuys caught my attention.
> It is not surprising that the Vehicular Cycling perspective gets such little > traction these days.
> Nothing like insulting the people who you seek to persuade and smearing > leaders (charlatan?) who would seem to share some common goals with you, > while getting there via a different approach.
> My father worked for Birmingham Small Arms in the late 1930's in Britain, > back when BSA still produced bicycles. He had a custom-made bike and rode > to work. When I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s he gave us Raleigh > bikes and were taught how to ride and look after them. But I gather that he > was ignorant and I remain a child when it comes to the one true way to ride > a bicycle. And I of course only 'masquerade' as an advocate for bicyclists.
> And your assessment of me and my father solely because I see considerable > value in segregated bike lanes and other cycling facilities.
> It is amazing that people who are so technically knowledgeable are so inept > when it comes to dealing with and persuading fellow cyclists. > Or people in general, for that matter.
> Guys, and it seems like you are all guys, have a look in the (rhetorical) > mirror.
> Like what you see? If you don't, change. If you do, then you are probably > beyond help and destined to remain frustrated and stew in your own juices, > while alienating most everyone except your own small group.
> Ron Richings > Vancouver, BC > Canada
> pete van nuys<petevann...@cox.net> Oct 13 07:06PM -0700 ^
> Jim, that's a great point. > And isn't "taking back the street" the real goal of all this-- complete > streets, increased mode share, bike/ped plans?
> How do we get sidetracked with images of lanes, boxes, side paths, etc.?
> Because there is no healthy bicycle culture in America. Just a juvenile > perspective given today's adults in their childhood by their equally > ignorant parents.
> This dysfunctional culture provides fertile ground for charlatans like > Roger Geller who masquerade as advocates for bicyclists.
> So when you spend $-hundreds of thousands to shut down the streets in > one of the world's greatest cities, is it any wonder America's overgrown > children come out to play.
-- John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer 7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306 619-644-5481 fores...@johnforester.com www.johnforester.com
Ron, What does your personal anecdote about something that occurred in 1930s Britain have to do with Pete's comments about cicLAvia 2010, or his dislike for Roger Geller? . Roger Geller is a man who told me to my face at the National Bike Summit in DC in 2007 when I asked him about the driver rights of cyclists in Portland, that those who prefer to act as drivers will just lose their rights in Portland, Oregon, in order to further the City's social goal of promotion of bicycling through mandatory segregation. You can't get to full driver rights through mandatory segregation; instead cyclists just lose their rights. So to talk of "getting there via a different approach" is little more than Orwellian doublespeak. For CABO, "there" is full driver rights with optional separation/segregation, and for segregation advocates like Geller, "there" is mandatory bikeways segregation without preservation of driver rights; the two are mutually exclusive.
Segregation does not lead to driver integration for bicyclists in practice. It hasn't in Northern Europe, Portland, or NYC. Pete was being charitable to Geller by referring to him as a charlatan, since he's actively opposing the purpose of CABO, driver rights, through his actions, and so are you by promoting segregation. . You are entitled to like segregation (preferably elsewhere), but to promote it in CA, specifically on the CABO list, is in conflict with the CABO purpose, mission and policy. This is why some of us do not appreciate your remote proselytizing for segregation. . For someone who fancies himself as qualified to lecture to us about advocacy, you seem particularly tone deaf to the CABO mission and policies and the effect segregation has on cyclists driver rights. Could it be that your ideology and desire for segregation blind you to your audience? I suggest you check the materials construction of your house before throwing rocks... . . - Dan Gutierrez - Long Beach, CA (562) 244-4145 Cell (310) 336-3075 Office (800) 616-4714 Pager Dan.Gutier...@Charter.Net
Organizational Affiliations Local: Long Beach Cyclists, Technical Advisory Committee Chair Aerospace Cycling Club, Founder and Current President SouthBay Westside Transportation Mgmt. Assoc., Board Member
State: CA Assoc. of Bicycling Organizations (CABO), District 7 Director CABO Education Committee Co-Chair http://www.cabobike.org/ Caltrans District 7 Bicycle Advisory Committee, Policy Chair
-----Original Message----- From: caboforum@googlegroups.com [mailto:caboforum@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of ron Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 4:43 PM To: petevann...@cox.net Cc: caboforum@googlegroups.com Subject: [CABOforum] Vehicular cycling and you, and the rest of the cycling world
Hi CABO folks
I know it is probably a mistake to comment on a CABO post, but a recent one by Pete Van Nuys caught my attention.
It is not surprising that the Vehicular Cycling perspective gets such little traction these days.
Nothing like insulting the people who you seek to persuade and smearing leaders (charlatan?) who would seem to share some common goals with you, while getting there via a different approach.
My father worked for Birmingham Small Arms in the late 1930's in Britain, back when BSA still produced bicycles. He had a custom-made bike and rode to work. When I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s he gave us Raleigh bikes and were taught how to ride and look after them. But I gather that he was ignorant and I remain a child when it comes to the one true way to ride a bicycle. And I of course only 'masquerade' as an advocate for bicyclists.
And your assessment of me and my father solely because I see considerable value in segregated bike lanes and other cycling facilities.
It is amazing that people who are so technically knowledgeable are so inept when it comes to dealing with and persuading fellow cyclists. Or people in general, for that matter.
Guys, and it seems like you are all guys, have a look in the (rhetorical) mirror.
Like what you see? If you don't, change. If you do, then you are probably beyond help and destined to remain frustrated and stew in your own juices, while alienating most everyone except your own small group.
Ron Richings Vancouver, BC Canada
pete van nuys <petevann...@cox.net> Oct 13 07:06PM -0700 ^
Jim, that's a great point. And isn't "taking back the street" the real goal of all this-- complete streets, increased mode share, bike/ped plans?
How do we get sidetracked with images of lanes, boxes, side paths, etc.?
Because there is no healthy bicycle culture in America. Just a juvenile perspective given today's adults in their childhood by their equally ignorant parents.
This dysfunctional culture provides fertile ground for charlatans like Roger Geller who masquerade as advocates for bicyclists.
So when you spend $-hundreds of thousands to shut down the streets in one of the world's greatest cities, is it any wonder America's overgrown children come out to play.
-- Regards,
Pete van Nuys Executive Director Orange County Bicycle Coalition LCI # 2060 949 492 5737
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "CABOforum" group. To post to this group, send email to caboforum@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to caboforum+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/caboforum?hl=en.
I have no problem at all if Pete dislikes Roger Geller. But that isn't what Pete wrote. In calling Roger a 'charlatan' ( a quack or a fraud ) he was attacking his character, not expressing his dislike. Not a matter of a 'feeling', but rather a question of fact.
As for my comments about my father's and my history, I was simply responding to Pete's comment about "...adults in their childhood by their equally ignorant parents." Nice rhetorical flourish, but really not accurate. Some of us 'separatists' are genuine adults and had quite well informed parents, when it came to bicycles.
-----Original Message----- From: Dan Gutierrez [mailto:Dan.Gutier...@Charter.Net] Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:05 PM To: richi...@telus.net; petevann...@cox.net
Cc: caboforum@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: [CABOforum] Vehicular cycling and you, and the rest of the cycling world
Ron, What does your personal anecdote about something that occurred in 1930s Britain have to do with Pete's comments about cicLAvia 2010, or his dislike for Roger Geller?
Ron, you need to learn the facts. Roger Geller is a charlatan, as demonstrated by his actions in promoting his ideas in Portland. Facts don't lie; learn the facts and shape up.
> I have no problem at all if Pete dislikes Roger Geller. But that isn't what > Pete wrote. In calling Roger a 'charlatan' ( a quack or a fraud ) he was > attacking his character, not expressing his dislike. Not a matter of a > 'feeling', but rather a question of fact.
> As for my comments about my father's and my history, I was simply responding > to Pete's comment about "...adults in their childhood by their equally > ignorant parents." Nice rhetorical flourish, but really not accurate. Some > of us 'separatists' are genuine adults and had quite well informed parents, > when it came to bicycles.
> Ron
> -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Gutierrez [mailto:Dan.Gutier...@Charter.Net] > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:05 PM > To: richi...@telus.net; petevann...@cox.net > Cc: caboforum@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: [CABOforum] Vehicular cycling and you, and the rest of the > cycling world
> Ron, > What does your personal anecdote about something that occurred in 1930s > Britain have to do with Pete's comments about cicLAvia 2010, or his dislike > for Roger Geller?
-- John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer 7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306 619-644-5481 fores...@johnforester.com www.johnforester.com
You wrote: "As for my comments about my father's and my history, I was
simply responding to Pete's comment about "...adults in their childhood by their equally ignorant parents." Nice rhetorical flourish, but really not accurate. Some of us 'separatists' are genuine adults and had quite well informed parents, when it came to bicycles." . Pete was talking about US parents, the overwhelming majority of which did not learn traffic skills, much less basic bike handling skills, so they couldn't possibly pass it on to their children. Most adults in SoCal learned what little they know about cycling as children by trial and error, and spend their whole lives in a state of arrested cycling development. That's why many of us work to improve education, since it is so badly lacking in CA. This has nothing to do with 1930s Britain or you and your father in particular. . . - Dan Gutierrez - Long Beach, CA (562) 244-4145 Cell (310) 336-3075 Office (800) 616-4714 Pager Dan.Gutier...@Charter.Net
Organizational Affiliations Local: Long Beach Cyclists, Technical Advisory Committee Chair Aerospace Cycling Club, Founder and Current President SouthBay Westside Transportation Mgmt. Assoc., Board Member
State: CA Assoc. of Bicycling Organizations (CABO), District 7 Director CABO Education Committee Co-Chair http://www.cabobike.org/ Caltrans District 7 Bicycle Advisory Committee, Policy Chair
-----Original Message----- From: ron [mailto:richi...@telus.net] Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:41 PM To: 'Dan Gutierrez'; petevann...@cox.net
Cc: caboforum@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: [CABOforum] Vehicular cycling and you, and the rest of the cycling world
Hi Dan
I have no problem at all if Pete dislikes Roger Geller. But that isn't what Pete wrote. In calling Roger a 'charlatan' ( a quack or a fraud ) he was attacking his character, not expressing his dislike. Not a matter of a 'feeling', but rather a question of fact.
As for my comments about my father's and my history, I was simply responding to Pete's comment about "...adults in their childhood by their equally ignorant parents." Nice rhetorical flourish, but really not accurate. Some of us 'separatists' are genuine adults and had quite well informed parents, when it came to bicycles.
Ron
-----Original Message----- From: Dan Gutierrez [mailto:Dan.Gutier...@Charter.Net] Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 6:05 PM To: richi...@telus.net; petevann...@cox.net Cc: caboforum@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: [CABOforum] Vehicular cycling and you, and the rest of the cycling world
Ron, What does your personal anecdote about something that occurred in 1930s Britain have to do with Pete's comments about cicLAvia 2010, or his dislike for Roger Geller?
