Vehicular cycling and you, and the rest of the cycling world
ron
I know it is probably a mistake to comment on a CABO post, but a recent one
by Pete Van Nuys caught my attention.
It is not surprising that the Vehicular Cycling perspective gets such little
traction these days.
Nothing like insulting the people who you seek to persuade and smearing
leaders (charlatan?) who would seem to share some common goals with you,
while getting there via a different approach.
My father worked for Birmingham Small Arms in the late 1930's in Britain,
back when BSA still produced bicycles. He had a custom-made bike and rode
to work. When I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s he gave us Raleigh
bikes and were taught how to ride and look after them. But I gather that he
was ignorant and I remain a child when it comes to the one true way to ride
a bicycle. And I of course only 'masquerade' as an advocate for bicyclists.
And your assessment of me and my father solely because I see considerable
value in segregated bike lanes and other cycling facilities.
It is amazing that people who are so technically knowledgeable are so inept
when it comes to dealing with and persuading fellow cyclists.
Or people in general, for that matter.
Guys, and it seems like you are all guys, have a look in the (rhetorical)
mirror.
Like what you see? If you don't, change. If you do, then you are probably
beyond help and destined to remain frustrated and stew in your own juices,
while alienating most everyone except your own small group.
Ron Richings
Vancouver, BC
Canada
pete van nuys <petev...@cox.net> Oct 13 07:06PM -0700 ^
Jim, that's a great point.
And isn't "taking back the street" the real goal of all this-- complete
streets, increased mode share, bike/ped plans?
How do we get sidetracked with images of lanes, boxes, side paths, etc.?
Because there is no healthy bicycle culture in America. Just a juvenile
perspective given today's adults in their childhood by their equally
ignorant parents.
This dysfunctional culture provides fertile ground for charlatans like
Roger Geller who masquerade as advocates for bicyclists.
So when you spend $-hundreds of thousands to shut down the streets in
one of the world's greatest cities, is it any wonder America's overgrown
children come out to play.
--
Regards,
Pete van Nuys
Executive Director
Orange County Bicycle Coalition
LCI # 2060
949 492 5737
pete van nuys
John Forester
scientific evidence. The evidence leads one to conclude that he is.
Geller promotes dangerous cycling for the purpose of making bicycle
transportation popular.
Ron, you claim that you "see considerable value in segregated bike lanes
and other cycling facilities." Let's leave the bike parking racks out of
this; there's no principled objection to such items. You named
"segregated bike lanes" as having some value. I simply state that there
is no known cycling facility officially named a "segregated bike lane."
It should be no wonder about the reaction of well-informed cyclists when
we have to deal, day after day, year after year, with much the same
arguments made by poorly-informed people who believe their own
misinformation.
I'm sorry, Ron, but those who hope to make a transportationally
significant switch from motor to bicycle transport by promoting
incompetent cycling on bikeways have never produced a reasonable
scientific or engineering analysis of the effect of their proposals on
the safety and convenience of cyclists. They have always avoided such
analyses, either because they can't understand them or because they know
that such an analysis would disgrace their program. Instead, they base
their program on popular superstition, which, being justly described as
superstition, is demonstrably opposed to factual knowledge.
That's the way that bicycle transportation affairs have operated for
thirty five years, science against superstition, with superstition
empowered by government and promoted by bicycle advocates.
--
John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306
619-644-5481 fore...@johnforester.com
www.johnforester.com
Dan Gutierrez
What does your personal anecdote about something that occurred in 1930s
Britain have to do with Pete's comments about cicLAvia 2010, or his dislike
for Roger Geller?
.
Roger Geller is a man who told me to my face at the National Bike Summit in
DC in 2007 when I asked him about the driver rights of cyclists in Portland,
that those who prefer to act as drivers will just lose their rights in
Portland, Oregon, in order to further the City's social goal of promotion of
bicycling through mandatory segregation. You can't get to full driver
rights through mandatory segregation; instead cyclists just lose their
rights. So to talk of "getting there via a different approach" is little
more than Orwellian doublespeak. For CABO, "there" is full driver rights
with optional separation/segregation, and for segregation advocates like
Geller, "there" is mandatory bikeways segregation without preservation of
driver rights; the two are mutually exclusive.
Segregation does not lead to driver integration for bicyclists in practice.
It hasn't in Northern Europe, Portland, or NYC. Pete was being charitable
to Geller by referring to him as a charlatan, since he's actively opposing
the purpose of CABO, driver rights, through his actions, and so are you by
promoting segregation.
.
You are entitled to like segregation (preferably elsewhere), but to promote
it in CA, specifically on the CABO list, is in conflict with the CABO
purpose, mission and policy. This is why some of us do not appreciate your
remote proselytizing for segregation.
.
For someone who fancies himself as qualified to lecture to us about
advocacy, you seem particularly tone deaf to the CABO mission and policies
and the effect segregation has on cyclists driver rights. Could it be that
your ideology and desire for segregation blind you to your audience? I
suggest you check the materials construction of your house before throwing
rocks...
.
.
- Dan Gutierrez -
Long Beach, CA
(562) 244-4145 Cell
(310) 336-3075 Office
(800) 616-4714 Pager
Dan.Gu...@Charter.Net
Organizational Affiliations
Local:
Long Beach Cyclists, Technical Advisory Committee Chair
Aerospace Cycling Club, Founder and Current President
SouthBay Westside Transportation Mgmt. Assoc., Board Member
State:
CA Assoc. of Bicycling Organizations (CABO), District 7 Director
CABO Education Committee Co-Chair http://www.cabobike.org/
Caltrans District 7 Bicycle Advisory Committee, Policy Chair
National:
League of American Bicyclists (LAB), Certified Instructor, LCI #962
http://www.bikeleague.org/
Dual Chase Productions LLC, Co-Creator http://www.dualchase.com/
Dual Chase video hosting at Cyclist View http://www.cyclistview.com/
YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/CyclistLorax
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ron
I have no problem at all if Pete dislikes Roger Geller. But that isn't what
Pete wrote. In calling Roger a 'charlatan' ( a quack or a fraud ) he was
attacking his character, not expressing his dislike. Not a matter of a
'feeling', but rather a question of fact.
As for my comments about my father's and my history, I was simply responding
to Pete's comment about "...adults in their childhood by their equally
ignorant parents." Nice rhetorical flourish, but really not accurate. Some
of us 'separatists' are genuine adults and had quite well informed parents,
when it came to bicycles.
Ron
John Forester
demonstrated by his actions in promoting his ideas in Portland. Facts
don't lie; learn the facts and shape up.
--
Dan Gutierrez
You wrote: "As for my comments about my father's and my history, I was
simply responding to Pete's comment about "...adults in their childhood by
their equally ignorant parents." Nice rhetorical flourish, but really not
accurate. Some of us 'separatists' are genuine adults and had quite well
informed parents, when it came to bicycles."
Pete was talking about US parents, the overwhelming majority of which did
not learn traffic skills, much less basic bike handling skills, so they
couldn't possibly pass it on to their children. Most adults in SoCal
learned what little they know about cycling as children by trial and error,
and spend their whole lives in a state of arrested cycling development.
That's why many of us work to improve education, since it is so badly
lacking in CA. This has nothing to do with 1930s Britain or you and your
father in particular.
.
.
- Dan Gutierrez -
Long Beach, CA
(562) 244-4145 Cell
(310) 336-3075 Office
(800) 616-4714 Pager
Dan.Gu...@Charter.Net
Organizational Affiliations
Local:
Long Beach Cyclists, Technical Advisory Committee Chair
Aerospace Cycling Club, Founder and Current President
SouthBay Westside Transportation Mgmt. Assoc., Board Member
State:
CA Assoc. of Bicycling Organizations (CABO), District 7 Director
CABO Education Committee Co-Chair http://www.cabobike.org/
Caltrans District 7 Bicycle Advisory Committee, Policy Chair
National:
League of American Bicyclists (LAB), Certified Instructor, LCI #962
http://www.bikeleague.org/
Dual Chase Productions LLC, Co-Creator http://www.dualchase.com/
Dual Chase video hosting at Cyclist View http://www.cyclistview.com/
YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/CyclistLorax