How to buy tires for your car (letter to a friend asking for advice)

[Joe Mastroianni]

A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and I wrote this up
to email to her.

How does it look (do you have better ideas for a basic college kid's car)?

Here's what I just wrote up for her:

0. Write down the current tires on the vehicle & compare with what the
vehicle came with as stock.

1. Go to the Tirerack web site and list all available tires for that size
& load rating and type (e.g., mud and snow, all weather, etc.).

2. Order the cheapest tires with the best ratings for traction you can
find. Use temperature and treadewear ratings as tie breakers. Never ever
buy anything, least of all tires, based on the warranty - but if all else
is otherwise exactly equal, then use the (otherwise nearly useless)
warranty as your tie breaker only. And never buy based on manufacturer's
speed ratings - although, as always, feel free to use them as a tie
breaker.

3. You can read the reviews - but they'll be nearly useless in the end
(but read them, by all means - there's no telling what you'll find out).

4. When ordering, choose the option to send them to the installer of
choice, and pick the CHEAPEST local installer by overall price (it should
cost roughly about $15 per tire for mounting & balancing but many have
additional fees so that's total price, including tire disposal fee, new
valve, balancing, and mounting).

5. You'll find the shipping is about $15 per tire, so basically the final
price will be the sales price plus $30 for shipping & balancing.

6. If you want, you can skip the ordering and just print the prices and
visit any local tire shop and ask if they'll match those prices. Make
sure you print the installation costs also to ensure they match both.

7. Depending on how your old tires wore, you may want to have the car
aligned when the new tires are put on.

You can expect tires to cost roughly around $100, plus $15 shipping, plus
$15 for installation, for a total of about $520 for a set of four.

[Kevin McMurtrie]

In article <kevg0o$hk8$1...@dont-email.me>,

That last bit depends on the car. Tires with a low sidewall aspect
ratio can cost a fortune because they need extra reinforcements. Mix a
low sidewall aspect ratio with a heavy car and you're looking at prices
starting at $250 per tire. Most tire shops will try to sell such tires
with a lower load capacity and say they're giving you a good deal, but
underrated tires won't handle well or last long.

There's also sport versus cruising and everything in between. A sport
tire may be so superior in performance that it grips better in the rain
than a cruising tire grips on dry pavement. The downside is noise, a
harsh ride, and rapid wear. Cruising tires are comfortable and long
lasting but not great performers.
--
I will not see posts from Google because I must filter them as spam

[gpsman]

On Feb 7, 1:02 am, Joe Mastroianni <j...@coohoo.com> wrote:
> A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and I wrote this up
> to email to her.
>

> 0. Write down the current tires on the vehicle & compare with what the
> vehicle came with as stock.

Why?

> 1. Go to the Tirerack web site and list all available tires for that size
> & load rating and type (e.g., mud and snow, all weather, etc.).

Which size...?

> 2. Order the cheapest tires with the best ratings for traction you can
> find.

Why?

> 3. You can read the reviews - but they'll be nearly useless in the end
> (but read them, by all means - there's no telling what you'll find out).

That's nonsensical.

> 7. Depending on how your old tires wore, you may want to have the car
> aligned when the new tires are put on.

How much longer than between tire sets would you suggest for
alignments...?
-----

- gpsman

[Scott Dorsey]

Joe Mastroianni <j...@coohoo.com> wrote:
>
>4. When ordering, choose the option to send them to the installer of
>choice, and pick the CHEAPEST local installer by overall price (it should
>cost roughly about $15 per tire for mounting & balancing but many have
>additional fees so that's total price, including tire disposal fee, new
>valve, balancing, and mounting).

Problem is the cheapest local installer is going to be using torque sticks
and are apt to overtorque everything and bend up your rotors. They are also
apt to find lots of other things wrong and wind up sticking the customer for
the cost of an alignment (which more often than not is actually a misalignment).

So it's good to at least beware of these things.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[jgar the jorrible]

On Feb 7, 5:48 am, gpsman <gps...@driversmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 1:02 am, Joe Mastroianni <j...@coohoo.com> wrote:
>
> > A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and I wrote this up
> > to email to her.
>
> > 0. Write down the current tires on the vehicle & compare with what the
> > vehicle came with as stock.
>
> Why?

This should be obvious - buying a car from some dumbass who put on the
wrong tires, you don't want to propagate that. They might be all four
different size retreads, you know?

>
> > 1. Go to the Tirerack web site and list all available tires for that size
> > & load rating and type (e.g., mud and snow, all weather, etc.).
>
> Which size...?

The size for the car. Usually they list all the combinations that
came with the model, sometimes they might be off. Some cars these
days have 3 different sized wheels available from the manufacturer.

>
> > 2. Order the cheapest tires with the best ratings for traction you can
> > find.
>
> Why?

This appears to be trying to maximize safety for the young 'un.
Probably way over-generalized.

>
> > 3. You can read the reviews - but they'll be nearly useless in the end
> > (but read them, by all means - there's no telling what you'll find out).
>
> That's nonsensical.

I agree, but I do the same thing. These are internet opinions, it
takes some skill to judge them.

>
> > 7. Depending on how your old tires wore, you may want to have the car
> > aligned when the new tires are put on.
>
> How much longer than between tire sets would you suggest for
> alignments...?

This is a tough question. I've put 20K on the new beetle I bought
used five years ago, which had apparently OEM replacements with I
guess 5 or 10K on them. No alignment has been necessary, even though
there is obvious off-road damage from the previous little-old-lady-
driving-on-Sunday and I've had trouble with bent A-Arms. This has
surprised me. I'm unsure if I'll do an alignment when I get a new
set.

I would think getting an alignment with a new set makes sense, but I
didn't with the Chrysler, no apparent issues 15K miles later. I think
I've done this several times now with cars up to 200K.

It seems it depends on the car and circumstances. The roads around
where I live are crap, too.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
Dang, this guy is getting around.
http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/ci_22538891/massive-manhunt-fired-lapd-officer-suspected-2-killings

[jgar the jorrible]

On Feb 6, 10:02 pm, Joe Mastroianni <j...@coohoo.com> wrote:

>
> 6. If you want, you can skip the ordering and just print the prices and
> visit any local tire shop and ask if they'll match those prices. Make
> sure you print the installation costs also to ensure they match both.
>

Be sure and print everything, it seems there are sometimes different
prices between franchise and corporate web sites. There are also
sometimes marketing sites with outdated information that look similar
to the real sites, trying to get referral fees or something.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

http://goo.gl/maps/vRSyq

[gpsman]

On Feb 7, 11:48 am, jgar the jorrible <joel-ga...@home.com> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 5:48 am, gpsman <gps...@driversmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 7, 1:02 am, Joe Mastroianni <j...@coohoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and I wrote this up
> > > to email to her.
>
> > > 0. Write down the current tires on the vehicle & compare with what the
> > > vehicle came with as stock.
>
> > Why?
>
> This should be obvious - buying a car from some dumbass who put on the
> wrong tires, you don't want to propagate that.  They might be all four
> different size retreads, you know?

So why "compare" them...?

> > > 1. Go to the Tirerack web site and list all available tires for that size
> > > & load rating and type (e.g., mud and snow, all weather, etc.).
>
> > Which size...?
>
> The size for the car.  Usually they list all the combinations that
> came with the model, sometimes they might be off.  Some cars these
> days have 3 different sized wheels available from the manufacturer.

That isn't clear.

> > > 2. Order the cheapest tires with the best ratings for traction you can
> > > find.
>
> > Why?
>
> This appears to be trying to maximize safety for the young 'un.
> Probably way over-generalized.

Ya think...?

> > > 3. You can read the reviews - but they'll be nearly useless in the end
> > > (but read them, by all means - there's no telling what you'll find out).
>
> > That's nonsensical.
>
> I agree, but I do the same thing.  These are internet opinions, it
> takes some skill to judge them.

Right. Knowledge/skill of which I think we can safely assume the
recipient has none.

> > > 7. Depending on how your old tires wore, you may want to have the car
> > > aligned when the new tires are put on.
>
> > How much longer than between tire sets would you suggest for
> > alignments...?

> I would think getting an alignment with a new set makes sense,

Especially if you can't "read" a tire.

> but I
> didn't with the Chrysler, no apparent issues 15K miles later.  I think
> I've done this several times now with cars up to 200K.
>
> It seems it depends on the car and circumstances.  The roads around
> where I live are crap, too.

The roads are crap everywhere, so you must drive like me, which almost
no one does.
-----

- gpsman

[jgar the jorrible]

On Feb 7, 9:18 am, gpsman <gps...@driversmail.com> wrote:

>
> The roads are crap everywhere, so you must drive like me, which almost
> no one does.

Yah, I'm the guy in the Bug who thinks he's James Dean in the
Spyder ;-)

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-common/mlib/616/02/616_1360213161.pdf

[Vic Smith]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2013 08:48:41 -0800 (PST), jgar the jorrible
<joel-...@home.com> wrote:

>On Feb 7, 5:48 am, gpsman <gps...@driversmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 7, 1:02 am, Joe Mastroianni <j...@coohoo.com> wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> > 3. You can read the reviews - but they'll be nearly useless in the end
>> > (but read them, by all means - there's no telling what you'll find out).
>>
>> That's nonsensical.
>
>I agree, but I do the same thing. These are internet opinions, it
>takes some skill to judge them.
>

But not too much skill. When you see the reviewer has put 100 miles
on the tires and says they are "Awesome!" just ignore that.
Not much different than wading through product reviews on Amazon.
I trust my take on enough good Tirerack reviews much more than a tire
rating from Consumers Report. They still around?
You just need enough reviews for a tire on your car type.
I don't bother reading reviews where the tire is on a car
substantially different than the car I want them for.
Don't recall if the OP said look up reviews by tire size, but that's
useless. Has to be by make/model..
You do have "tire nuts" writing some decent reviews there.
I've trusted some of them enough to buy based on their reviews, and
was satisfied with the result.
I've found the biggest problem is when there aren't enough believable
reviews for my car, or the tire model is discontinued.

>>
>> > 7. Depending on how your old tires wore, you may want to have the car
>> > aligned when the new tires are put on.
>>
>> How much longer than between tire sets would you suggest for
>> alignments...?
>
>This is a tough question. I've put 20K on the new beetle I bought
>used five years ago, which had apparently OEM replacements with I
>guess 5 or 10K on them. No alignment has been necessary, even though
>there is obvious off-road damage from the previous little-old-lady-
>driving-on-Sunday and I've had trouble with bent A-Arms. This has
>surprised me. I'm unsure if I'll do an alignment when I get a new
>set.
>
>I would think getting an alignment with a new set makes sense, but I
>didn't with the Chrysler, no apparent issues 15K miles later. I think
>I've done this several times now with cars up to 200K.
>
>It seems it depends on the car and circumstances. The roads around
>where I live are crap, too.
>

I never align because I put new tires on, unless there are wear or
tracking issues. But it seems how it's worked out the last couple
times is when it was time for front end maintenance like struts, or
tie rod ends, it was time for new tires too. So I did it all at
within a week, tires and alignment last.

[Nate Nagel]

I agree with both of your comments, I would also add that unless this is
a car that a) never sees snow, EVER or b) has a set of dedicated winter
tires to exclude anything that has "summer" in the description (or
doesn't have "all-season.")

Sounds like you actually have a pretty good handle on it, and I would
definitely try to price match with a good local independent shop before
just ordering from tire rack - it works out the same in the end but you
build a good relationship with the shop that way. It's an easy sale for
them if you walk in already knowing what two or three models, sizes,
etc. of tires you're thinking are acceptable.

Finally, I've had excellent luck with Michelin tires and find them to be
a little more expensive but wear a lot longer than other mfgrs.
comparable tires, while still having good traction. Whether the premium
is worth it really depends on how long friend's daughter anticipates
keeping the car.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[Nate Nagel]

I've finally found a shop that I trust to install tires on my car - if
any of you are near DIA I can tell you where to go. (no, I'm not being
a smartass <G>)

[jgar the jorrible]

Yeah, I've got to say the Discount Tire warranty for the wife's car
has paid for itself, her being able to deal with it instead of being
dependent on me if nothing else. 3 times in two months at one point
IIRC. Tire guys are a long way from brain surgeons, so having decent
policies, procedures and locations makes a difference.

I'm normally bitching and moaning about warranties.

>
> Finally, I've had excellent luck with Michelin tires and find them to be
> a little more expensive but wear a lot longer than other mfgrs.
> comparable tires, while still having good traction.  Whether the premium
> is worth it really depends on how long friend's daughter anticipates
> keeping the car.

I have generally too, though on Chrysler 300M they were noisy as hell
and I eventually went with whatever Tire Rack recommended as the
quietest (don't remember what now, funny how easier it is to remember
the screwups).

Usually auto dealers are to be avoided, but I have seen them actually
have decent tire deals (rarely, but I have). I speculate because they
buy a bunch for their trade-ins, perhaps also to upsell other
services.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

Bear Mountain Resort locked down:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/inland_empire&id=8983695
http://www.bearmountain.com/snowboard/2013/02/07/update/

[Paul in Houston TX]

Joe Mastroianni wrote:
> A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and I wrote this up
> to email to her.
>
> How does it look (do you have better ideas for a basic college kid's car)?

My method of getting tires:
Look at the door sticker and tires to find tire size.
Go online to Discount Tire and NTB to see what they have
on sale and if they are at the local stores.
Call the store and confirm they have them and how long
of a waiting line.
Go to store (take reading material) and have them put on.
Drive away happy one hour later.
The entire process takes me about one hour and twenty minutes.

Your method: Way too much unnecessary movement and hassle.
What country do you live in?

What do you do if a new tire is bad?
The tire store will blame you or the installer.

What do you do for free tire rotation and balance
as the tires wear?

What do you do if tire gets destroyed?

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:48:41 -0800, jgar the jorrible wrote:

EVERYTHING jgar said was on the money!

Thanks.

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:28:36 -0500, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Problem is the cheapest local installer is going to be using torque
> sticks and are apt to overtorque everything and bend up your rotors.
> They are also apt to find lots of other things wrong and wind up
> sticking the customer for the cost of an alignment (which more often
> than not is actually a misalignment).

I understand 'what' you're saying ... but ...

The problem is trying to simplify how to get four round black ones her
daughter's car - and - well - it just seemed senseless to try to have her
judge which installer to use when there's really no way to tell which
installer is better than any other installer.

Is there a way to tell which installer is better than another?

[Danny D.]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 08:53:46 -0800, jgar the jorrible wrote:

> Be sure and print everything, it seems there are sometimes different
> prices between franchise and corporate web sites.

I just got tirerack tires shipped to a "recommended installer", Midas,
and, guess what?

Midas charged me 10% more than their advertised price for the
installation on TireRack.

So, I signed the estimate and then called Tire Rack who called Midas who
then lowered the price after an hour of phone calls.

But just for me (by adjusting the labor rate).

The only problem with that is that the NEXT person who goes into Midas is
not going to get that price so they're still fleecing people (bait and
switch).

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:55:09 -0600, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> What country do you live in?

Silicon Valley.

> What do you do if a new tire is bad?

I've never had a "bad" tire but if it were bad, I'd call TireRack and
complain. I'm sure they have a procedure (although I confess I don't know
what it is).

> The tire store will blame you or the installer.

Depends on what went bad. If it has a nail in it, then they should blame
me. If it wore prematurely, then they have to look at how the other three
tires wore to see if it was the alignment. If it delaminated or developed
a bulge in the sidewall, well then, I would think they'd make good on it.

> What do you do for free tire rotation and balance as the tires wear?

You know. I must confess. I bought tires a few times from Costco when
they had the free rotation and, well, I just NEVER took it to them for
that free rotation. I just did it myself. Much more convenient than
waiting in line for hours for something that takes less time (with 4 good
jack stands) than it takes to drive to the place.

> What do you do if tire gets destroyed?

I would buy another tire using the exact same process only I'd match the
tire to the other three. I'm not sure why this question was asked.

But, back to the intent:
These are all good questions which a mother and her daughter might need
to worry about ... so I take them as good advice. But they don't answer
what we can tell that mother and daughter directly by way of algorithm.

[Peter Lawrence]

On 2/7/13 10:33 PM, Danny D. wrote:
>
> The only problem with that is that the NEXT person who goes into Midas is
> not going to get that price so they're still fleecing people (bait and
> switch).

But that's the Midas way, or should I say, the Midas Touch!

I've avoided going to Midas the past 25 years because of their shady
practices. Friends don't let friends go to Midas.


- Peter

[jgar the jorrible]

Obviously not, as even a good one may go bad. And obviously, the
feelings that women have that they are being taken advantage of come
from some truth (really, taking advantage of suckers is gender-blind,
and surely some macho guys overestimate their own ability to judge).
Part of the reason I got a good deal on my bug was the little old lady
felt the vendors were taking advantage of a little old lady. Perhaps
they were, but there were things that simply needed to be fixed. I
felt the same way getting those things fixed even understanding the
issues as a car guy.

All you can really do is ask your friends who've they had reasonable
dealings with recently, there's no deterministic algorithm. And then
you risk the fact that your friends might be bat-shit crazy. With
yelp and similar, there's the additional sock-puppet risk.

When I was in car clubs there were usually people who worked in the
biz who could direct you towards the good guys. That's not feasible
for the general public, though perhaps everyone knows a car guy that
can help. I can say there was one group that was got uncomfortable
when they realized a member was subtly ripping them all off.

Years ago when I was auto-crossing, I got to know my local Goodyear
dealer well, really liked him, and gave him a lot of business. Then
he got some roid-raged weightlifter guy as a manager, I couldn't deal
with it, so went elsewhere. Eventually that guy left and I went
back. With that set of tires, the ABS light came on as I left, and
they told me it would go out in a few miles (true in some cases).
Well it didn't go out, turned out the installer had cut the ABS
sensors. So they had to replace them, the manager showed me the
invoice, parts alone certainly wiped out any profit they might have
made. While I felt they tried to make good both by fixing it and
fessin' up, really, this is brakes we're talking about, they lost my
business. So it goes.

My wife is a psychologist, and doesn't want me to go to one place
because one of her patients works there. There's another place I
avoid because a former tenant works there, he bolted and left me to
deal with junk truck and engines. lol

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/dorner-manhunt-more-snow-expected-for-big-bear-as-residents-wait-1.html

[Scott Dorsey]

In article <kf260v$ar1$2...@dont-email.me>,

Ask a good mechanic who he has do his car.

Pick the chain store that has their own race car team over the one that
doesn't.

See what happens when you offer the man a $20 tip to use a torque wrench
instead of the sticks. If he isn't sure how to use it, go elsewhere.

Don't ever, ever let them do an alignment unless there are clear and obvious
signs of an alignment problem. If you absolutely need an alignment, find
some race car guys and ask whem who the guy in town that does good alignment
work is.

[Scott Dorsey]

Joe Mastroianni <j...@coohoo.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:55:09 -0600, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>
>> What country do you live in?
>
>Silicon Valley.

Go to Kraus Tires in Castro Valley. Brandon Kraus is THE GUY for alignment
work in Northern California. I would trust those guys 100% with anything
under there.

[Peter Lawrence]

On 2/7/13 10:33 PM, Danny D. wrote:
>

> The only problem with that is that the NEXT person who goes into Midas is
> not going to get that price so they're still fleecing people (bait and
> switch).

[MG]

"Joe Mastroianni" wrote in message news:kevg0o$hk8$1...@dont-email.me...

If your friend needs this much advice, skip Tire Rack and find a reputable
dealer.

[Paul in Houston TX]

Joe Mastroianni wrote:
> A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and I wrote this up
> to email to her.
>
> How does it look (do you have better ideas for a basic college kid's car)?

Tell her to take the car to Discount Tire NTB and tell them
the car needs tires and to put them on. Problem solved fast
and easy.

[Nate Nagel]

Only if you don't care whether you got the best value for your money or not.

Personally I support the OP's seeming obsession with getting good tires,
as they are literally the most important component of a motor vehicle
(save the driver) when it comes to safety.

[jim beam]

On 02/09/2013 12:20 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 02/09/2013 02:52 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>> Joe Mastroianni wrote:
>>> A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and I wrote this
>>> up to email to her.
>>>
>>> How does it look (do you have better ideas for a basic college kid's
>>> car)?
>>
>> Tell her to take the car to Discount Tire NTB and tell them
>> the car needs tires and to put them on. Problem solved fast
>> and easy.
>
> Only if you don't care whether you got the best value for your money or
> not.
>
> Personally I support the OP's seeming obsession with getting good tires,
> as they are literally the most important component of a motor vehicle
> (save the driver) when it comes to safety.

eh? they're important, but not as important as working brakes - if you
have crappy tires, you can "slow down". [i know, bizarre concept for
someone who purports to be an engineer to think of contemplating.]


--
fact check required

[AMuzi]

On 2/9/2013 2:20 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 02/09/2013 02:52 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>> Joe Mastroianni wrote:
>>> A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and
>>> I wrote this
>>> up to email to her.
>>>
>>> How does it look (do you have better ideas for a basic
>>> college kid's
>>> car)?
>>
>> Tell her to take the car to Discount Tire NTB and tell them
>> the car needs tires and to put them on. Problem solved fast
>> and easy.
>
> Only if you don't care whether you got the best value for
> your money or not.
>
> Personally I support the OP's seeming obsession with getting
> good tires, as they are literally the most important
> component of a motor vehicle (save the driver) when it comes
> to safety.

Sadly now, Gresham's Law regarding tire vendors:

http://host.madison.com/business/article_6e251c3a-7242-11e2-9348-001a4bcf887a.html

My only tire source for many years. Nice guy, rides a
Bianchi bicycle.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Nate Nagel]

I can slow down without any brakes at all. Not well, but better than I
can with good brakes but bald tires (assuming rain or snow.)

I'd put brakes right up there below driver and tires on the list of
"things that are really, really important" though.

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 15:51:34 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

> I'd put brakes right up there below driver and tires on the list of
> "things that are really, really important" though.

She didn't ask ... but ...

For brakes, if she did ask, I'd tell her to ask the dealer what
the original cold:hot friction codes were and to get nothing lower
but get the lowest cost pads that MEET (or exceed) those
friction ratings (which are, by law, printed on all pads & shoes).

For example, if the original friction ratings were FF in the
rear and GG in the front, then THAT is all she needs to buy
the least expensive brake pads that meet (or exceed) the original
equipment.

I would tell her to forget all about "ceramic" vs "metallic" and
every variation in between. I would also tell her, as always,
to use warranty ONLY as a tie breaker, and specifically NEVER
as a feature.

For pads, the goal is to meet the manufacturer's friction rating
at the lowest possible price.

About the only other thing I'd warn her about is 'dusting' for
certain vehicles, where the color of the dust is objectionable
(e.g., BMW OEM FF Jurid front pads dust an objectionable color
whereas aftermarket Axxis PBR pads dust a less objectionable
color), but, that is probably something I wouldn't even bring up
unless she had fancy wheels.

What else (other than friction ratings) would you recommend
we tell a mother when purchasing brake pads?

[Nate Nagel]

Well, dust is a concern to me, but I in fact *do* drive a BMW :) This
past year not only had to clean up the stock wheels, but the used ones I
bought for a winter set as well, what a miserable task. (and the
outsides of the wheels were nice; I just think that open-pattern wheels
should have the barrels cleaned and waxed as well.)

Personally I tend to drive cars that have a good enthusiast following,
so getting opinions on brake pads for my vehicles is as easy as
subscribing to the appropriate forum.

FWIW I really like the Centric Premium rotors as they work just like a
good rotor should, *and* have the cool e-coating that keeps them from
turning into a rusty mess. I have less nice things to say about the
Performance Friction pads that I bought for my Jeep; I tried to save
some money but I should have popped for Black Magic or EBC (at 3x the
price though...) they're probably OK on vehicles that don't have
marginal brakes to begin with, but still.

[jim beam]

On 02/09/2013 12:51 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 02/09/2013 03:41 PM, jim beam wrote:
>> On 02/09/2013 12:20 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
>>> On 02/09/2013 02:52 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>>>> Joe Mastroianni wrote:
>>>>> A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and I wrote this
>>>>> up to email to her.
>>>>>
>>>>> How does it look (do you have better ideas for a basic college kid's
>>>>> car)?
>>>>
>>>> Tell her to take the car to Discount Tire NTB and tell them
>>>> the car needs tires and to put them on. Problem solved fast
>>>> and easy.
>>>
>>> Only if you don't care whether you got the best value for your money or
>>> not.
>>>
>>> Personally I support the OP's seeming obsession with getting good tires,
>>> as they are literally the most important component of a motor vehicle
>>> (save the driver) when it comes to safety.
>>
>> eh? they're important, but not as important as working brakes - if you
>> have crappy tires, you can "slow down". [i know, bizarre concept for
>> someone who purports to be an engineer to think of contemplating.]
>
> I can slow down without any brakes at all. Not well, but better than I
> can with good brakes but bald tires (assuming rain or snow.)

what a typically retarded statement. as only possible from the retard
that never drives with passengers, never drives on hills and never in
the city.

>
> I'd put brakes right up there below driver and tires on the list of
> "things that are really, really important" though.

yup, just like you always operate mouth before engaging brain. or at
least you would if you had a brain.


--
fact check required

[Paul in Houston TX]

Nate Nagel wrote:
> On 02/09/2013 02:52 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
>> Joe Mastroianni wrote:
>>> A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and I wrote this
>>> up to email to her.
>>>
>>> How does it look (do you have better ideas for a basic college kid's
>>> car)?
>>
>> Tell her to take the car to Discount Tire NTB and tell them
>> the car needs tires and to put them on. Problem solved fast
>> and easy.
>
> Only if you don't care whether you got the best value for your money or
> not.
>
> Personally I support the OP's seeming obsession with getting good tires,
> as they are literally the most important component of a motor vehicle
> (save the driver) when it comes to safety.
>
> nate

I am hard on tires, they only last 35k-40k miles.
The only tires that have ever gone bad were ones I myself
destroyed by running over stuff at construction sites and curbs.
I am not going to go faster than about 85 mph in my Kia
so I'm not concerned about ratings.

[Paul in Houston TX]

I get the cheapest American made brand at O'Reillys Pep Zone
and put them on myself. Fronts last 35k miles.
I don't intend on racing my 06 Kia Spectra so don't care
about friction coeffs.

[gpsman]

On Feb 9, 4:52 pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>
> FWIW I really like the Centric Premium rotors as they work just like a
> good rotor should,

Fascinating!

> I have less nice things to say about the
> Performance Friction pads that I bought for my Jeep; I tried to save
> some money but I should have popped for Black Magic or EBC (at 3x the
> price though...) they're probably OK on vehicles that don't have
> marginal brakes to begin with, but still.

Which vehicles have you found with marginal brakes...?!
-----

- gpsman

[Nate Nagel]

Meh? It's perfectly easy - double clutch, select lower gear, use
e-brake to come to a full stop if necessary.

Now only an idiot would knowingly set off on a trip without good brakes
- but to say that you can't slow down without them is equally idiotic.

>>
>> I'd put brakes right up there below driver and tires on the list of
>> "things that are really, really important" though.
>
> yup, just like you always operate mouth before engaging brain. or at
> least you would if you had a brain.

We're talking about you again, aren't we?

[Nate Nagel]

Jeep Cherokee for one; the brakes require higher-than-normal pedal
pressure for people driving sanely in normal traffic and with no
modifications. It's pretty well known that once larger/heavier wheels
and tires are installed that brakes are the next upgrade that the owner
finds is needed.

[gpsman]

On Feb 10, 9:26 am, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> On 02/10/2013 08:37 AM, gpsman wrote:
> > On Feb 9, 4:52 pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>
> >> FWIW I really like the Centric Premium rotors as they work just like a
> >> good rotor should,
>
> > Fascinating!
>

> >> I should have popped for Black Magic or EBC (at 3x the
> >> price though...) they're probably OK on vehicles that don't have
> >> marginal brakes to begin with, but still.
>
> > Which vehicles have you found with marginal brakes...?!
>
> Jeep Cherokee for one; the brakes require higher-than-normal pedal
> pressure for people driving sanely in normal traffic and with no
> modifications.

What is the source of your data?

What is "normal" brake pedal pressure?

At what pedal pressure point are they rendered "marginal"?

> It's pretty well known that once larger/heavier wheels
> and tires are installed that brakes are the next upgrade that the owner
> finds is needed.

Let me just thank you for not explaining how good rotors work...
-----

- gpsman

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 16:52:09 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

> FWIW I really like the Centric Premium rotors

I think Centric is a rebrander - so, if I'm correct,
there is no such thing (so to speak) as Centric rotors
or pads.

Of course, to be clear, Centric brands them as such,
so they will "say" Centric, but they are something
else as Centric doesn't make them.

Just my two cents (which I believe to be true).

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 23:52:59 -0600, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> I get the cheapest American made brand at O'Reillys Pep Zone
> and put them on myself. Fronts last 35k miles.
> I don't intend on racing my 06 Kia Spectra so don't care
> about friction coeffs.

That makes sense.

But I should say the delta between an E and an F and a G
is huuuuuuuuuuge (in terms of friction coefficients)!

So, for me to tell someone to get ANYTHING that meets
the original friction code, seems reasonable.

It's certainly less confusing than all the FUD marketing
and "common wisdom" that abounds with brake pads.

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Sat, 09 Feb 2013 23:47:45 -0600, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

> I am not going to go faster than about 85 mph in my Kia
> so I'm not concerned about ratings.

Just to be clear, in my original suggested description,
the key rating was the friction rating of the rubber
which is marked on every tire.

On THAT rating, I would NOT compromise.

All the rest are, as you said, less important.

So, to SIMPLIFY buying tires, where FUD and Marketing abound,
I suggested she buy the CHEAPEST set she can find with the
highest FRICTION (i.e., TRACTION) rating (i.e., AA or at least
A, and never ever B or C).

[jim beam]

no kidding.

one thing that gets me every time are these bmw's wieners who bleat
about brake dust. "common wisdom" is that you have to use "bmw spec"
pads and the dust is just the price you have to pay. that's ignorant
bullshit. fact is, low dust ceramics like the japanese use on their
cars, work just fine. not only does the car continue to perform just
great, there's no need to have to clean their wheels all the time, /and/
no need to replace disks every pad change.

bmw make money from selling braking components. get wise to that.
friends who have both bmw's and [bmw] mini's have changed over to
akebonos at my suggestion, don't have any more dust problems, are not
munching through disks, and couldn't be happier.


--
fact check required

[Nate Nagel]

I'm honestly not sure - I *do* know that they are somehow associated
with Stoptech which is a well regarded manufacturer of "performance"
aftermarket brakes, big brake kits, etc.

I can tell you that the finish and machining on the Centric Premium
rotors that I have used is superior to a lot of OEM stuff I've seen.
Haven't heard any reports of warping, cracking, etc. either. Obviously
can't comment on metallurgy, but they're nice looking, balanced, and
aren't showing any signs of unusual wear, hot spots, etc. after over a
year on the Heep.

Based on my experiences and those I've heard from others I'd consider
them again for my next brake job, although I tend not to wear brakes
that quickly as I don't drive like a racer on the street (but the Heep
is an automatic, so does use brakes a little faster than most of my
vehicles.)

[Nate Nagel]

Just to add confusion to the discussion, the UTQG rating is *wet*
traction and may or may not indicate how well a tire performs in the dry.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=48

Obviously, wet traction is a concern, but so is dry traction, and
traction in snow if you have same in your area.

[Nate Nagel]

Wow, some actual good advice from JB.

From everything I've heard he's spot on, with the only caveat being
that the Akebonos might not have quite as nice pedal feel as the stock
Jurid/Textar pads. I'm definitely considering them should my car need
brakes however. Probably not appropriate for someone who tracks their
car but might be the sweet spot for street driving.

[Paul in Houston TX]

I agree. I do get "A" traction. Houston tends to be wet
from Nov-March and the shell and limestone roads get slick.
The 'A' rating is one reason my tires wear out at about
35k miles.

[Scott Dorsey]

Joe Mastroianni <j...@coohoo.com> wrote:
>
>So, for me to tell someone to get ANYTHING that meets
>the original friction code, seems reasonable.
>
>It's certainly less confusing than all the FUD marketing
>and "common wisdom" that abounds with brake pads.

The honest truth is that the worst tires you can buy today are substantially
better than the best tires you could buy in the seventies.

Mind you, I don't consider that a reason to buy lousy tires for my 1970s
car, when I can get better tires that make it handle better than it ever
did when it was new.

[dsi1]

On 2/6/2013 8:02 PM, Joe Mastroianni wrote:
> A friend asked me how to buy tires for her daughter - and I wrote this up
> to email to her.
>
> How does it look (do you have better ideas for a basic college kid's car)?
>

These days I go to Costco or Sam's Club. The last I got tires it was
Dunlops at Sam's Club. It was the cheapest P255 /50SR17 tires they had.
It was around $650 for a set. Boy, they sure added a lot of weights on
the wheels to get those tires balanced. Maybe I should have upgraded the
tires one step.

[jim beam]

On 02/10/2013 03:36 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Joe Mastroianni <j...@coohoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> So, for me to tell someone to get ANYTHING that meets
>> the original friction code, seems reasonable.
>>
>> It's certainly less confusing than all the FUD marketing
>> and "common wisdom" that abounds with brake pads.
>
> The honest truth is that the worst tires you can buy today are substantially
> better than the best tires you could buy in the seventies.

maybe 10 years ago, but cheap chinese tires that have flooded the market
today are utter carp and well worse than 70's tires.

>
> Mind you, I don't consider that a reason to buy lousy tires for my 1970s
> car, when I can get better tires that make it handle better than it ever
> did when it was new.
> --scott
>


--

fact check required

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:29:38 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:

> Haven't heard any reports of warping, cracking, etc. either. Obviously
> can't comment on metallurgy, but they're nice looking, balanced, and
> aren't showing any signs of unusual wear, hot spots, etc. after over a
> year on the Heep.

The sad thing is that rotors don't warp in common use.

Rotor warp is, in essence, an old wives' tale.

It turns out that what people 'call' warp, is really just pad deposition
(and sometimes it's other things such as runout & sloppy linkages, and a
host of other imbalances having nothing to do with the rotors, per se).

The problem is that the SOLUTION to so-called rotor warp (i.e., rebed or
turn or replace the rotors) "appears" to fit the errant problem that
they're somehow warped - but (almost) NOBODY who ever said they had
warped brakes ever measured the warpage (because it just doesn't happen).

To be thoroughly clear, brake rotors CAN warp. I'm not saying they can't,
especially in racing situations, but in reality, 99.9999999999999% of the
time someone 'says' their rotors are warped, they didn't.

They merely have a very thin uneven layer of pad deposition on them.

Before anyone lambastes me, please just google some of the references,
e.g.,
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=1787

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 11:50:48 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> "common wisdom" is that you have to use "bmw spec"
> pads and the dust is just the price you have to pay. that's ignorant
> bullshit. fact is, low dust ceramics like the japanese use on their
> cars, work just fine. not only does the car continue to perform just
> great, there's no need to have to clean their wheels all the time

Agreed.

It's my understanding that what we're calling "low dust" (e.g., Akebono
or PBR/Axxis pads) are really "light colored dust". The don't dust any
less or any more than the Jurid/Textar BMW OEM pads - they just dust a
less objectionable color (as I understand it).

The Jurid/Textar front pads (depending on the bimmer) are dark colored
dust.

I may be wrong, but ALL pads dust. They kind of have to. So, the only
real issue is to find less objectionable colors to the dust. That's what
the aftermarket pads did - but BMW doesn't care about dusting so that's
not part of their OEM spec.

In the end, the friction rating of FF (for the Jurid/Textar pads) is all
that you really want to meet - and if you can get that with a lighter-
colored dust, then that's what you do.

I agree with you.

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 13:59:49 -1000, dsi1 wrote:

> Boy, they sure added a lot of weights on the wheels to get those tires
> balanced.

You do know that there is a heavy spot marked on most tires, and that the
amount of weight used is greater when the installer does not mount the
tire with the heavy spot near the light spot of the rim.

Most times they don't (they think you don't know about it).

[Scott Dorsey]

Joe Mastroianni <j...@coohoo.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:29:38 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> Haven't heard any reports of warping, cracking, etc. either. Obviously
>> can't comment on metallurgy, but they're nice looking, balanced, and
>> aren't showing any signs of unusual wear, hot spots, etc. after over a
>> year on the Heep.
>
>The sad thing is that rotors don't warp in common use.

That's sort of true, and sort of not true.

I see a warped rotors. But they didn't warp in use, they warped because
some idiot at the tire store warped them trying to put lug nuts on.

[jim beam]

On 02/12/2013 11:10 AM, Joe Mastroianni wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:29:38 -0500, Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> Haven't heard any reports of warping, cracking, etc. either. Obviously
>> can't comment on metallurgy, but they're nice looking, balanced, and
>> aren't showing any signs of unusual wear, hot spots, etc. after over a
>> year on the Heep.
>
> The sad thing is that rotors don't warp in common use.
>
> Rotor warp is, in essence, an old wives' tale.
>
> It turns out that what people 'call' warp, is really just pad deposition
> (and sometimes it's other things such as runout & sloppy linkages, and a
> host of other imbalances having nothing to do with the rotors, per se).

that's absolutely correct.

>
> The problem is that the SOLUTION to so-called rotor warp (i.e., rebed or
> turn or replace the rotors) "appears" to fit the errant problem that
> they're somehow warped - but (almost) NOBODY who ever said they had
> warped brakes ever measured the warpage (because it just doesn't happen).

true. but turning disks is often unnecessary - it "fixes" the problem
just because the disk gets rebedded - and people don't analyze the cause
and effect coincidence of what they've done that somehow magically "worked".

>
> To be thoroughly clear, brake rotors CAN warp. I'm not saying they can't,
> especially in racing situations, but in reality, 99.9999999999999% of the
> time someone 'says' their rotors are warped, they didn't.

indeed.

>
> They merely have a very thin uneven layer of pad deposition on them.

that can happen, but it's not as common as rotor elastic distortion
because the disk's not seated properly and not torqued properly. always
scrape off rust and [very lightly] antiseize the hub before replacing a
disk.

>
> Before anyone lambastes me, please just google some of the references,
> e.g.,
> http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=1787
>

--
fact check required

[jim beam]

On 02/12/2013 11:14 AM, Joe Mastroianni wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 11:50:48 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>
>> "common wisdom" is that you have to use "bmw spec"
>> pads and the dust is just the price you have to pay. that's ignorant
>> bullshit. fact is, low dust ceramics like the japanese use on their
>> cars, work just fine. not only does the car continue to perform just
>> great, there's no need to have to clean their wheels all the time
>
> Agreed.
>
> It's my understanding that what we're calling "low dust" (e.g., Akebono
> or PBR/Axxis pads) are really "light colored dust". The don't dust any
> less or any more than the Jurid/Textar BMW OEM pads - they just dust a
> less objectionable color (as I understand it).

incorrect. japanese ceramics cause less dust /and/ that dust is
different. "bmw spec" pads actively and aggressively abrade the disk
metal because of high silica content. that results in a high disk wear
rate, which is more dust than just the pad. and that dust quickly
oxidizes, which is the visible bit you're talking about.

>
> The Jurid/Textar front pads (depending on the bimmer) are dark colored
> dust.

it's powdered disk, not pad that's showing on your wheels.

>
> I may be wrong, but ALL pads dust. They kind of have to. So, the only
> real issue is to find less objectionable colors to the dust. That's what
> the aftermarket pads did - but BMW doesn't care about dusting so that's
> not part of their OEM spec.

no, it's their intent that you replace disks with the pad at every change.

>
> In the end, the friction rating of FF (for the Jurid/Textar pads) is all
> that you really want to meet - and if you can get that with a lighter-
> colored dust, then that's what you do.

why? if you can get the friction spec you want from a japanese ceramic,
which in my experience are not just good at low dust and disk
preservation, why wouldn't you? especially when they're highly fade
resistant too - more so than most typical euro oem pads i've tried.


>
> I agree with you.
>


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

so what do you do when you buy tires that aren't marked??? michelin
don't mark tires and they make some of the best tires you can buy. and
they have more money/time/phd's in tire research than anybody - by some
margin. so what now?


--
fact check required

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:49:22 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> it's powdered disk, not pad that's showing on your wheels.

Interesting thought. I never would have thought the dust
is actually the steel of the rotor. I must look that one up.

It does make intuitive sense though, that the steel rotor
dust would be a dark color that sticks to the wheels ...
so you may be right (I don't know - but I'll look it up).

> it's their intent that you replace disks with the pad

Not really. That's a common Bimmerism (just like many others
such as you have to use LL01 synthetic oil or "blue" coolant).

BMW publishes a rotor spec in the TIS, just like every other
automobile manufacturer. If the rotors meet spec, you leave 'em
on the car - if not, you replace 'em. Just like all other cars.

On my bimmer, I get two pad changes per front rotor, and
that second pad goes on a front rotor that 'barely' meets the
spec in the TIS, so I can't imagine getting three pad changes.

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:51:51 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> so what do you do when you buy tires that aren't marked???

This document explains how to handle a red dot and a yellow dot:
http://bridgestonetrucktires.com/publications/ra_v13_i1/PDF/ra_v13i1%20ask%20doc.pdf

Note the position depends on whether there is a dimple or not in the wheel.

I don't know WHAT they do if there's no dot.

[jim beam]

On 02/14/2013 08:17 PM, Joe Mastroianni wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:49:22 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>
>> it's powdered disk, not pad that's showing on your wheels.
>
> Interesting thought. I never would have thought the dust
> is actually the steel of the rotor. I must look that one up.
>
> It does make intuitive sense though, that the steel rotor
> dust would be a dark color that sticks to the wheels ...
> so you may be right (I don't know - but I'll look it up).
>
>> it's their intent that you replace disks with the pad
>
> Not really. That's a common Bimmerism (just like many others
> such as you have to use LL01 synthetic oil or "blue" coolant).
>
> BMW publishes a rotor spec in the TIS, just like every other
> automobile manufacturer. If the rotors meet spec, you leave 'em
> on the car - if not, you replace 'em. Just like all other cars.

well, i've never seen a bmw disk that meets spec thickness by the time
the pad's done - they've always been below or significantly below minimum.

>
> On my bimmer, I get two pad changes per front rotor, and
> that second pad goes on a front rotor that 'barely' meets the
> spec in the TIS, so I can't imagine getting three pad changes.

you must be changing the pad at 50%.


--
fact check required

[jim beam]

i know what some manufacturers say to do - the question was whether it's
worth it. michelin, who are no slouches, don't think it is. either
that or they've perfected perfectly balanced tires - which they haven't.


--
fact check required

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 16:36:18 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> well, i've never seen a bmw disk that meets spec thickness by the time
> the pad's done - they've always been below or significantly below minimum.

The Bentley manual says the rear rotor limit is 0.720 inches,
and the front is 0.800 inches for my model BMW, and I generally
am only a few thousandths above that by the time the Jurid/Textar or
Akebono/Axxis/PBR pads are worn to about 1mm (which is their wear limit).

So, I do agree.

It's close to the minimum spec on a single set of pads.

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 16:36:55 -0800, jim beam wrote:

> i know what some manufacturers say to do - the question was whether it's
> worth it.

I don't know.

But if it saves an ounce of lead, isn't it worth it?

[jim beam]

you have a point, but i'd rather tire manufacturers focused on making
product that didn't need as much of it in the first place. i have 4
michelin pilots on one car - the largest weight on one tire is 1oz. all
the rest are either zero or 1/4oz.


--
fact check required

[Paul D. DeRocco]

On 2/15/2013 7:45 PM, Joe Mastroianni wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 16:36:55 -0800, jim beam wrote:
>
> But if it saves an ounce of lead, isn't it worth it?

Given how obsessive electronics manufacturers are about keeping
milligrams of lead out of their products (ROHS standards), it's not
surprising the virus is spreading to other industries.

--

Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
Paul mailto:pder...@ix.netcom.com

[Joe Mastroianni]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:55:40 -0800, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:

>> But if it saves an ounce of lead, isn't it worth it?
>
> Given how obsessive electronics manufacturers are about keeping
> milligrams of lead out of their products (ROHS standards), it's not
> surprising the virus is spreading to other industries.

Here is what I think the pros and cons of mounting tires is.
(BMW even puts a match mounting dot on all its wheels for this.)

CON:
1. Takes an extra few seconds for the tire mounter to mount
2. Any other cons?

PRO:
1. Saves a bit of lead per tire (for a zillion tires)
2. If that lead falls off the wheel, the result will be 'less' unbalanced
3. Any other pros?

[jim beam]

how about making better wheels that don't need balancing?
how about making better tires that don't need [as much] balancing?

bmw evidently haven't considered using michelin tires.


--
fact check required