Untouchability - Satyameva Jayate Latest Episode

[Raghuram RP]

Abhivadaye Scholars,

 

 In the latest episode of SJ, we saw a lady Samskrita Professor who accuses shastras of encouraging untochability. She claimed that our shastras say that shudras should always wear clothes that smell (bad smell). They should always be dependent on higher castes for food and are not supposed to do anything on their own. I would request the scholars to confirm if our dharmashastras say so. They also claimed that the purusha soktha rik (brahmana came from the mouth, etc.. - was shown that the verse exists in Manusmrithi) was the source of all this problems (untouchability). I wanted to know where such quotes are given and is this the right method to interpret the quotes.

 

--
Regards
Raghuram

[Shrisha Rao]

If one is to find fault with Sanskrit texts in that manner, then by
the same token, we should grant that the Koran's explicit messages to
Muslims to kill infidels is ultimately responsible for much of the
violence and terrorism in the world today, and for the rather pathetic
state of Islamic society in general (it having regressed from being a
repository of learning and culture in earlier centuries, before
Islamic fanaticism could take hold). Thus, much worse can be said of
the Koran (cf. http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/die_kill.htm)
in the same way. Would Aamir Khan risk a fatwa on his head to say
such things then also?

Regards,

Shrisha Rao

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> Raghuram
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[Ganesh R]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ganesh R <avadhan...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Untouchability - Satyameva Jayate Latest Episode
To: shrish...@gmail.com


Thank you Mr.Shirsha Rao...well said by you.... The beauty and nobility of our shastra-s is in transcending them and this is not all thought of by the Semitic religions. All the objections laid down by the people like SJ and co are only restricted to the viSEShadhrama-s and these differ from time to time and place to place. As Sri Shankara has clearly said, these are all puruSha/kartRtantra-s and not the timeless vstutantra-s or saamaanya-dharma-s. All such quires are well answered by people like Swami Vivekananda, Swmi chinmayaananda, mahaamahOpaadhyaaya P.V.Kane, M. Hiriyanna and many more.

ganesh

[Shrikant Jamadagni]

Dear Dr. Ganesh One should also add the names of Sri Aurobindo, Veer Savarkar  among others who have also clarified.  In my view - in the ancient days where there were self-contained communities, a son inherited his fathers occupational-skills and also the right to it. A "right-to-work"  - to use todays political terminology!  This old system is disappearing simply because it is no longer useful or necessary as a general principle. But one cannot deny very blunt language used by maharshi Manu and other smrtikaras with regards to sudras. This obviously is fodder for anti-Hinduism. In the absence of a central authority among Hindus, a mahasabha of various denominations could make a formal declaration of the end of the apparently iron-clad-caste-system of old times.  regards Shrikant Jamadagni Bangalore --- On Mon, 9/7/12, Ganesh R <avadhan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jsra Prasad]

Respected Scholars,

I am also afraid a bit after watching that SJ episode. A poor Kashi Pandit has been interviewed whether he attests the practice of untouchablity. He has not only said yes, but also answered that our constitution is against shastra. So, he can't accept constitution as an authority. Of course, it was an individual opinion.

As rightly said by Dr.Ganesh ji, such practices were relative to times/places. In a globalized and knowledge (?) society, such instances may occur in feeble number. It was said that 'कलौ पाराशरस्मृतिः'. Since it is popular Manu is widely followed. Also, I doubt the authenticity of blunt language used by Manu etc. Because, our Sanskrit scholars are very creative. An 'x' creates a work and attributes it to some 'y'. Even the great Mahabharatam is not an exception from interpolations as interpreted by BORI, Pune.

It is the collective duty of mathadhipathis, swamijis to counteract the anti-Hindu statements. But how many of them really come out? Forget about Amir khan, but who dares to accept the risk of a 'fatwa'. All this is due to foreign influence and their strong impression on our psyche. You are considered an 'intellectual' if you speak against Hindutva (not orthodox Hindutva). Rajiv Malhotra is touring all over the world to voice his strong views in this connection.

Sri Shrisharao's response is very worthy but that is not a solution as it may reflect the adage - 'eye for an eye'. I am curious to know is there any other kind of interpretation to 'ब्राह्मणोस्य मुखमासीत्' and so on? An electrical engineer, Sri Satish Chandra in Bangalore had worked for a couple of decades to interpret purusha suktha otherwise and derived a new meaning of electrical engineering! He has built a generator that multiplies the input power four times. The interesting factor is it doesn't use any fuel but absorbs cosmic energy. HH Sri Bharati Tirtha Swamiji has visited his institution.

I for one, look for the samskara and personal hygiene of my next person, nothing else.

Regards,
Prasad

--
Dr. Jsra Prasad,
Asst. Professor, Dept. of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad, Prof. C.R. Rao Road,
Hyderabad - 500 046 Tel: 040-2313 3803

[Ganesh R]

Dear Sri. Srikanth Jamadagni,

Thanks for your inputs and  me too have felt many times that all our yati-s, peeThaadhipati-s and traditional scholars shouldl come forward and declare as you said. technically too there is nothing wrong it as we know the famous dictum : kaalE kaalE navaacaarO navaa vaaNee mukhE mukhE and all this is noting but  a vishEShadharma, just rooted in rUpa and not at all in svarUpa. I feel that BVP would lead  in this direction so that the guns of forums/programs/people of the sort of satyamEva jayatE are well challenged.


regards

ganesh

[subodh kumar]

Dear Shrikant ji,

You have made a very pertinent statement.

It has so far not been possible to get our traditional Dharmacharys like Jagadguu Shankaracharyas to endorse these much needed clarifications on gender equality and caste based differentiations. Persons of the stature of Aurobindo, Vivekand, Swami Dayanand, Guru Nanak, Kabir  have been making such desired efforts over centuries, but even their efforts often seem ineffective.

How and what strategy should evolve goes back to the basics of poverty alleviation through Education/ Skill development, decentralised economies such as a house hold cow providing unadulterated nutrition to the family and society by organic food at least in rural sector.

In India every thing tends to degenerate in to self oriented power centres. Our successive Govts and planning commission have very noble intentions but every thing is lost in its mode of implementation. Panchayat Raj was conceived only on this wisdom of 'small is beautiful' , but see what has it come to.

I wonder if scholars of BVP can suggest some positive strategies.

Subodh Kumar

Subodh Kumar,
C-61 Ramprasth,
Ghaziabad-201011
Mobile-9810612898

Maharshi Dayanand Gosamwardhan Kendra , Delhi-96

http://subodh-vedainspirations.blogspot.com
http://subodh-cowsinindia.blogspot.com

A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of  the branch breaking, because his trust  is NOT  on the branch but on it's own WINGS !!

Believe in yourself & WIN the world..

.

[Reeta Bhattacharya]

Dont you think that sudras were neglected in our society when Brahmanas ruled. Even today upper cast people cant accept lower cast for their son or daughter's marriage. We so called literate people do injustice to not only backward class but also lower casts. I can give you many sources or examples from our Purana literature.
Regards,
Reeta Bhattacharya

The hardness in our heart is ego. The softness in our heart is love.
Love all, Mother Teresa said:-
"If you judge people,
you have no time to love them."

[श्रीनिवासः(Srinivasa Karri)]

Dear Scholors,
                     SJ episode may be just one of the many instances. We face this question repeatedly from various people espacially from conversion-hungry missioneries, muslims, sometimes from socalled lower caste hindus who are under the same impression. The fact is there is a widespread perception that Caste System(with that Untouchabilty) is invitable in Hinduism. And Missioneries are using it to their advantage. I request all the scholors here to guide us to answer such critics. it may include taking our message agressively to the masses or setting our house in order.
Please guide us

धन्यवादः
श्रीनिवासः

धन्यवादः
श्रीनिवासः

[SriKanth!]

vidvadbhya: saadaram pranamya,

While we should accept and address the current way of caste system, it
is not entirely to blame our Shastras or Hindu dharma per se. Consider
this,

1. Purusha Sukta with its universal view, when it comes to talk about
society brings some analogies such as the scholars being the face of
the society, workers being the force that moves the society etc. Even
today we Engineers proudly say "Engineers run the world", likewise
Purusha sukta saying Shudras forming the fundamental base of Society
by which the society moves on. Scholars here know the meaning of the
word Shudra which is not opposing what I am saying.

2. Casteism is not unique to Hinduism. Wherever in the world human
popuplation is there, groupism is unavoidable. Each group thinks they
are better from others, its only group psychology. Islam,
Christianity, Buddhism all have their own intrinsic variety of caste.
Even after converting to Christian or Islam we can see people retain
their caste (such as Christian Brahmin or Christian Nadar etc) - such
is the power of group mentality.

3. Untouchability may have been due to plague kind of diseases
spreading in the past. Similarly feudal wars between Kings, resulted
in communities becoming "upper caste" (winners) or "lower
caste" (losers)... Some of the castes which are considered Shudra in
one place are not so in other places of India. Caste is not eternally
setup and up or down movement in Varna was very much there. Ambedkar
has written a lot about this.

4. I wish to bring, most of Vedic Rishis, great souls were not
Brahmins. Manu himself is a Kshatriya (pl correct if I am wrong) and
not a brahmin.

5. Another accusation I hear is, Hindus destroyed Buddhism/Jainism
from the land (Bharat) where they born. This is not true, Hinduism was
never an organized entity and never tried to wipe out Buddhists. It
was Islamic invasions that reduced Buddhists/Jains from this land.

Pardon my ignorance if said anything wrong.

dhanyavada:
Srikanth

On Jul 10, 10:57 pm, श्रीनिवासः(Srinivasa Karri) <karr...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Dear Scholors,

[V Subrahmanian]

Pl. consider this:

Long ago I had heard the following verse which says: From the 'brAhmaNa-s' of 'this' country all the other people from the world over learn/ed the rules of conduct.  Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia:

http://sa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%B8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%83 

पृथिव्याः प्रायो विभिन्नदेशानां विधिप्रणयनप्रसङ्गे भगवतो मनुमहर्षेः नाम उल्लिखितं दृश्यते । भारतात् बहिः प्रायः कतिपयानां देशानां विधिशास्त्रेषु मनुसंहितायाः केचनांशा अपि समुद्धृता दृश्यन्ते । आचारव्यवहारविधिनिषेधादीनां व्यवस्थानां तुलनात्मकधिया मनुस्मृतिरद्वितीयाऽनुपमा चास्ति । मनुस्मृतौ एतस्मात् कारणात् लिखितमस्ति...

एतद्देशप्रसूतस्य सकाशादग्रजन्मनः ।

स्वं स्वं चरित्रं शिक्षेरन् पृथिव्यां सर्वमानवाः ॥

In every nation, religion, we can find, if we penetrate into it and study, distinctions based on one or the other factors like birth, avocation (vRtti), etc.  The terrorist from Pakistan held in India now, 'Kasab' is someone belonging to a low class/caste (in Islam/Pakistan) who are engaged in meat selling, etc.  The President of United States would not dine with the persons engaged in lowly jobs of that country.  A 'Nadar' Christian would not intermarry with 'Reddy' or 'scheduled caste' Christian.  Ireland faces age long struggle between the Protestant and Catholics.  Shias and Sunnis have been at 'war' almost in every country where Muslims are there.  Basavanna revolted against the 'caste system' in the Vedic Hindu religion and started a new order of 'Vira shaivas'.  But this order has in itself a multi class-caste distinction.  There are 'ayyanavaru' class who perform puja, rituals, etc. in Lingayat families.  There are panchAchAryas, pancha sAlis, and some other specific class/caste.  There will be no intermarriage, etc. among/across these classes. 

The earlier Sringeri Acharya, once made an official announcement that people should not make distinctions in public like while drawing water from a public pond/well.  One can practice his vishesha dharma inside his house.  

subrahmanian.v

[Hnbhat B.R.]

 The fact is there is a widespread perception that Caste System(with that Untouchabilty) is invitable in Hinduism. 

Just like the above statement. Such an issue can be invitable  by those  who want it to criticize it, while it is inevitable that it is maintained there  in the scriptures themselves. Each can make it yield to his advantage.

So far they are society is followed complimentary to each other sections, caste system may prove to be advantageous. On the other hand, it can be used to take advantage by some sections or leaders of the community, depending on the leadership adversely. 

Is it necessary to indulge in such complicated social issues in this forum meant for discussion of anything related with vidvat on different branches of knowledge and share and increase our knowledge?

Members may react accordingly.

This is a humble suggestion. 

--
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,

Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry

16 & 19, Rue Dumas

Pondichéry - 605 001

[Shrisha Rao]

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:09 AM, V Subrahmanian
<v.subra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Pl. consider this:
>
> Long ago I had heard the following verse which says: From the 'brAhmaNa-s'
> of 'this' country all the other people from the world over learn/ed the
> rules of conduct. Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia:

I am not familiar with this verse, but the *concept* that the masses
follow the lead of the distinguished is quite standard, cf.
प्रधानानुयायिनो जनव्यवहारा भवन्ति (cited by Madhusudana Saraswati
under Bhagavad Gita III-21, यद्यदाचरति श्रेष्ठस्तत्तदेवेतरो जनः). The
claim मम वर्त्मानुवर्तन्ते मनुष्याः पार्थ सर्वशः (BG III-23) is taken
quite literally by all traditional commentators.

Regards,

Shrisha Rao

[Ganesh R]

Dear Dr. Subodh Kumar ji and other scholar-friends,

I am happy that good lot of pertinent response is being generated and I especially than Sri Subrhamaniyan's observations. We need not be unduly apologetic.Great people like Gandhi ji. D. V. Gundappa, Ananda Kumara Swamy and many more of our times too have spoken about the positive aspects of varNa system and its due acceptance in the early times. In-spite of this, unless we declare that varNa is an intrinsic quality of every person based on the triguNa-s and not on birth alone and it has a greater meaning if taken as one's  in choice,  as happened in the earliest vedic period and also  in these days, we cannot strike the cord of harmony and honesty. Here I can just request the scholars to go to works like BRhadaaraNyaka up.,(I-4-14), Mhaabhaarata vanaparvan ; ajagaropaakhyaana and the modern works like mahaasaamraajyanibandhanam, a sutra work of KaavyakaNTha vaasshThaganapatimuni, caaturvarNya-bhaaratasameekShaa by mahaamaNdalEshwara mahEshvaraanandagiri, varNavyavasthaa kaa vaidikarUp by laalaa jnaanacand aarya and My VarNaashramadharma by M.K. Gandhi (editor A.N.Hingorani)
for better insights and information in this regard. I also like to bring to attention a recent Sanskrit work kauNDinyasmRti  of MahaamahOpaadhyaaya P. Ramacahndrudu which has an English translation also penned by the same author. I would humbly wish to suggest my own work, Saamaanyadharma in Kannda too here as a writing of similar concern.

regards


ganesh

[Shrikant Jamadagni]

Dear Dr.Ganesh, Very well said indeed. I was myself going to show the example of samraajya-nibandhanam of Ganapati Muni. You have very succintly and clearly put forward the nature of task at hand. Need to clear the confusion and shine a new light. regards Shrikant Jamadagni Bangalore

--- On Wed, 11/7/12, Ganesh R <avadhan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Raghuram RP]

Abhivadaye,

 

Thaks for all the inputs, I will try how I can take this forward for a response. Satyameva Jayates is a very popular TV show in India and has already done enuf damage. But I point is what i wanted to know was where is it stated that "shudras are supposed to wear clothes that smell" as claimed by the professor.

Regards
Raghuram

www.purnapramati.in
nAham karta harirkarta

[श्रीमल्ललितालालितः]

श्रीमल्ललितालालितः
lalitAlAlitaH

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Reeta Bhattacharya <reeta...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dont you think that sudras were neglected in our society when Brahmanas ruled.

I'll like to know the meaning of neglection.

 

Even today upper cast people cant accept lower cast for their son or daughter's marriage.

So, marrying to lower caste is acceptance !!??

You can't make rules to force one to marry to lower caste. Let people choose. Don't try to take away freedom of individuals and hindu groups.

  

We so called literate people do injustice to not only backward class but also lower casts.

If you do, then leave it. Why are you doing this ?

 

I can give you many sources or examples from our Purana literature.

I will like to hear.

I just want to say that differentiation of people according to caste or birth has it's root in veda-s and so it is anAdi. Those who have faith in veda-s follow it. If you don't have, don't follow. Declare it and be free. I think same was said by dharmAdhikArI in the show.

But, I'm of view that just this differentiation doesn't cause any harm. This differentiation doesn't say that you must abuse shUdra-s.

What brAhmaNa-s or others did going out of range of veda-s and smR^iti-s doesn't make scriptures culprit. That act was due to their ego, etc. So, don't blame division, i.e. chAturvarNyam.

For now, very few people know about or follow veda-s and other scriptures. Even then not all are equal. Are they ? Someone is sweeping road, some one is engaged in business, someone is at border to protect and someone is busy in teaching. These differences don't go. And your discriminative behavior too stays with it. I've seen many families that say that they treat all equally, their son and son of sweeper. But, I've not seen it confirmed by their behavior. So, before trying to eliminate the partition, which is not the actual cause of abuse, try to educate yourself to respect others. Killing mosquito for death caused by serpent is not wise.

Again, before abusing differentiation based on scriptures, you must check that what will happen when this will disappear ? And is it really causing abuses ?

Even countries where their is no  caste, they find a way to differentiate each other on the basis of skin, etc. which is again based on birth and then they fight.

Again, differences are fact. For example, those who convert to Islam are not considered equal to others. Why ? Because, the differentiating factor, i.e. conversion, is a fact. It's not an imagination. So, if you have to stay within a system, either hindu or others, you must accept the difference. As soon as you shun the wish and signs of the system, you are free of that partition. So, people must leave religion rather than expecting partition to evaporate.
So, basically the problem is in accepting religion and not accepting.

Moreover, if you leave religion, are you going to force government to make a law to eradicate religion ? That will be unfair. If you don't want to follow partition and religion, do according to your wish. But, leave those who have faith in it. This is the freedom which is given by constitution.

People bring ekalavya, etc. to show abuse. That's also wrong. Compare it to today's situation. What if I go to a nuclear-lab and steal the formula. People will shoot me at the sight.
Same was the case of ekalavya. He was doing the same with dhanur-vidyA.
If you don't see any comparison between both ? Then it's your problem. dhanurvidyA is equally dangerous, in my thinking , if it goes to wrong hands.

In no way we support abuse. But, first of all let us establish that which act is an abuse and what is it's real cause.

More later..........

[Shrivathsa B]

hariH OM,

   I bow down in reverence to the response of svAmI lalitAlAlitaH.

   People everywhere seem to have the impression that once the Hindu Shastras fail to be "imposed" (it was never imposed and is not being imposed these days either), this world will become paradise. Let us ask ourselves simple questions:

1. There is discrimination of the worst sort everywhere in the form of monetary discrimination. A person with a money bag will get a medical seat, PG medical seat etc. He can bribe his way out of any heinous crime, etc. etc. etc. Instead of fighting this, the target is Hindu shAstras which have for long been neglected and who aren't being practiced anymore.
2. The discrimination due to status is another form of discrimination being practiced in India right now. An MP or an MLA lives a life which is as (if not more) decadent as any king of the past. It is this discrimination which needs to be our focus, rather than the discrimination against which laws have been enacted. Moreover, the "discrimination" earlier was not in the sugar-coated pill of "equality" (everyone is equal in law, but some are more equal than others!!!).
   
3. There are laws against untouchability and even laws against calling people "caste names", still people like Amir Khan want to talk about untouchability. Amazing. This is simply brazenness. Anyone who wants to talk against Hindu Shastra automatically gets the aura of Intellectualism. Is this a failure of law that even with reverse discriminative laws they haven't been able to uproot the "evil"? In case so, let us talk about implementation of the laws.
   
4. The word "untouchability" is designed to put every hindu on the back foot, make him guilty of all real and imagined crimes that his forefathers have committed in the past. It is conveniently forgotten that the members of "higher" castes used to provide for education of "lower" castes, let out their premises for the marriages of "lower" caste members etc.
5. Suddenly, there is an urge to declare that the "varNa" system that was prescribed was not based on birth, but on the "guNa"s. So, if there be a new "varNa" system as exhorted by Shri Ganesh etc., will untouchability be accepted? This goes to show that the varNa vyavasthA as was practiced is never the problem (in case this not be the deduction, then the exhortation will go in vain).
6. Why is it that the facts of Shudra Kings like Proleya Vema Reddy inscribing that he is taking up arms to protect the "brahmins and cows" of Andhra conveniently forgotten? If the shudras were so oppressed by brahmins, why would they have taken up arms against Islam at all? Same goes for shudra warriors in the north.
7. Why is it that Amir Khan wants to raise up a bogeyman of untouchability against which laws have been enforced than talk of evils against which laws haven't been implemented (burqa system, genital mutilation of children, etc.).
8. A great man once hath said, "For the white man, his equality begins with food and ends with sleep" (i.e. sleeping with the "equal" partner).
9. How is it that the "oppressed" shudras used to control a large part of the economy of India even till the 1750s (Economic History of India by R. C. Dutt).
10. The Hindus who take in these arguments find an immediate urge to "reform" sanAtana dharma as is being practiced, although it has undergone thousands of reformation initiatives. Any more "reformation" and there will be nothing to give or take between "us" and "them" (people of other religions).
11. If there is abuse in the name of religion, it should be condemned in the strongest possible terms and where necessary, legal action should be taken. But let us stop this distorted discourse of making shAstra or sanAtana dharma the culprit for every ill of the society. Stop flogging a dead horse.
    

svasti,
             JAYA BHAVAANII BHAARATII,
                                                                shrivathsa terothmaDom.

2012/7/11 श्रीमल्ललितालालितः <lalitaa...@gmail.com>

[dr. Satyanarayana Das]

Hariom,

I advise the august members of this group to read "Being Different', "Breaking India", by Rajiv Malhotra. This issue has been dealt very nicely by him.

Such issues are raised to make Hindus feel guilty and lose faith in their own scriptures and religion. Then they are soft targets for conversion to Christianity or Islam.

There are discrimination in every society. In USA, which is propagated as the land of freedom, there are seperate churches for blacks and whites. Communism failed because it was against difference among various class of people.

Difference is unavoidable. that is sanaatana dharma. But there should be no exploitaion. In our own body head is different  from handas,belly, and  feet. But they work in cooperation. If my foot is heart my head will direct my hand to help it.

The real problem is lack of spiritual education and lack of good character. as long as avidya exists the strong will exploit the weak.

There is a joke, in capitalism man exploits man, in communism it is other way around.

 S. N. Dasa

--

Satyanarayana Dasa

Jiva Institute of Vedic Studies

380 Sheetal Chaya

Raman Reti, Vrindavan

UP 281121, India

Phone: *91-935-8397503

www.jiva.org

[Veeranarayana Pandurangi]

dear all,

I dont think we need answer this fool's (amir's) show. he is making it for only money. himself married twice and who knows what happens in future. it is bible in devil's mouth. he should do a show on bigamy also.

but who was the lady sanskrit professor and we should ask her to substantiate her claims or should reclaim her statements.

these showmakers always have a trick that works well. they will invite a poorest person to debate and win it. it is the same for Dr. Zakir Naik who is the leader of anti hindu TV shows. he even defeats shri ravishankar in a live debate. recently  Prof. Hafiz Mohammed Ziauddin Alias Shamsi Tehrani who was given presidents award for Farsi this year, told me that Zakir Naik knows nothing. we should use scholars scholars like Tehrani to counter fools like  Zakir Naik.  

Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
Head, Dept of Darshanas,
Yoganandacharya Bhavan,
Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026.

अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि।

ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।।

तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः।

[Shrikant Jamadagni]

Respected scholars  svAmI lalitAlAlitaH and shrivathsa I agree with a lot  of your responses but our thoughts regarding a new declaration with regards to caatur-varnya is against one and only one  issue as follows :-   Does a family of x-caste have to follow the same occupation and be known as belonging to x-caste till eternity? Our answer is "No".  I hope you are in agreement with me. I think there will always be four varnas in all cultures as taught by shruti. The question is whether the caste should be determined by birth or by choice.  Actually this question is already answered as a matter of everyday-fact by the Hindu community at large. regards Shrikant Jamadagni Bangalore --- On Wed, 11/7/12, dr. Satyanarayana Das <da...@jiva.org> wrote:

From: dr. Satyanarayana Das <da...@jiva.org> Subject: Re: Fwd: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Untouchability - Satyameva Jayate Latest Episode

[श्रीमल्ललितालालितः]

श्रीमल्ललितालालितः
lalitAlAlitaH

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Shrikant Jamadagni <shrik...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

I agree with a lot  of your responses but our thoughts regarding a new declaration with regards to caatur-varnya

Your chAturvarNya ? Who are you to decide varNa of others ? A specific avatAra or a prophet like buddha and muhammad ?
We don't accept anything imagined by you or VHP, RSS, etc. I know that they don't follow scriptures strictly and are in a way dangerous as other 'reformers'. Their hinduism is not same as ours. We follow scriptures and decide everything based on that. Their definitions are pointed to make a gathering of hindu-tagged people and nothing more. We are inclined to collect genuine hindus who are not perturbed by SMJ, etc.
Moreover, the practice to decide varNa by birth is the original one. It is still in practice. And inspite of 'reforms' by Arya-samAja, brahma-samAja, etc. it is alive.
Moreover if karma decides varNa then kR^iShNa will become brAhmaNa instead of xatriya.
And every moment varNa of a man with flickering mind will change in that case.

is against one and only one  issue as follows :-   Does a family of x-caste have to follow the same occupation and be known as belonging to x-caste till eternity? Our answer is "No".  I hope you are in agreement with me.

For your dissappointment, our answer is yes.
 

I think there will always be four varnas in all cultures as taught by shruti.

Your thinking is just imagination.
Go and ask people of other countries and they will confirm.
Moreover, varNa-s are for performing yAga, etc. vaidika-karma-s. Not just for jobs to earn money.
 

The question is whether the caste should be determined by birth or by choice.  Actually this question is already answered as a matter of everyday-fact by the Hindu community at large.

I don't know what type of hindus you are referring to and how it is in your favor ?
Stick to facts and give pause to imaginations based on things read here and there.

By the way, before imagining an alternative did you ever study scriptures in their original ? Or, you came in world and just saw hA.. I've to save the world and started imagining.

[Ganesh R]

Dear Mr. Srivatsa,

Enough of your enthusiasm of picking a bone with me:-). I My stand is made even more clearer by Sri. Srikanth Jamadagni. My only contention is difference is the very nature of this world and one has to transcend  it. In this process, the rUpa has to be changed and the svarUpa remains unchanged. varna or jaati are only too peripheral to  sanaatanadharma and our own life styles is an example of  this. If you are not for this, it naturally shows that you are not in tune with the anubhava and hence I only have to say svasti tubhyaM vitaNDinE!

regards

ganesh

[Shrivathsa B]

hariH OM,
shri shrikant,

   Please find the responses to your mail below:

"I agree with a lot  of your responses but our thoughts regarding a new declaration with regards to caatur-varnya is against one and only one  issue as follows :-   Does a family of x-caste have to follow the same occupation and be known as belonging to x-caste till eternity? Our answer is "No".  I hope you are in agreement with me."

   First things first: I don't feel a need for any new declaration on varNAshrama. varNAshrama, with all its real and imagined weaknesses has stood the test of time and in my humble analysis, it has prevented our forefathers from becoming muslims or christians. Just see the cultures Islam and Christianity have uprooted and analyze their social structures, you will understand.
   The answer to the second question is: It is ideal that they do so. It helps.

"I think there will always be four varnas in all cultures as taught by shruti. The question is whether the caste should be determined by birth or by choice."

   choice is a flimsy thing.

1. There are people these days who claim that they are man-locked-up-in-a-woman's-body and vice versa. Once they get their sex changed, they may feel the urge to go back to their former selves. On a lighter note, there was a woman who had come to the Indian Institute of Science when I was studying there 7 yrs ago. on being requested by a group called Queer (the group which purportedly stood for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender rights). This singer claimed that she was gay. One was confused because going by her sex, she should have called herself a lesbian. But she gave a clarification that she is a man trapped in a woman's body and she feels the urge to have sex with men, hence she isn't a lesbian, she is gay!!!
   
2. There are people who militate against the principle of stable marriage in sanAtana dharma saying that their partners need to be determined based on their "current" state of mind. One needn't imagine the social incohesion, depravity and wretchedness this will cause in the society, one just needs to see the record of scandinavian countries. Europe as a whole is following suit and so is the US.
3. An agnihotri while performing a somayAga suddenly feels that he is no longer a brahmin, and he has to go to war. Or a warrior in the battlefield suddenly feels that he is an agnihotri. Is this what is being suggested?
4. It doesn't take an Einstein to determine that we aren't what we were yesterday, so, our varNa will go on changing by the day/hour/minute? Why even talk of such a flimsy thing as that or why limit it to 4 varNas? Don't you see it clearly that you want to concoct something that has the shell of sanAtana dharma devoid of its soul? The Christians do it much better. They have appropriated diipAvali, in Kerala they have appropriated vidyArambha, and we know that they are trying very hard to appropriate Yoga. What you are aiming for is a cheap imitiation of their efforts.
   

So, are we to rest one's varNa on choice?

" Actually this question is already answered as a matter of everyday-fact by the Hindu community at large."

   Just because a large number of people are doing something wrong, it doesn't endorse or condone the act.
   varNa of a person is determined by his past karma. Birth in a certain yoni is dependent on one's accumulated karma. Anyone who denies this may call himself anything but a "hindu".

svasti,
            JAYA BHAVAANII BHAARATII,
                                                            shrivathsa terothmaDom.

2012/7/11 Shrikant Jamadagni <shrik...@yahoo.co.in>

[श्रीमल्ललितालालितः]

श्रीमल्ललितालालितः
lalitAlAlitaH

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Ganesh R <avadhan...@gmail.com> wrote:

My only contention is difference is the very nature of this world and one has to transcend  it.

If it's nature of world, of which you are a part, then you can't transcend difference.
Nature is that which is not changed.
 

In this process, the rUpa has to be changed and the svarUpa remains unchanged.

And, svarUpa = nature. So, difference never goes is what you mean !! ??
 

varna or jaati are only too peripheral to  sanaatanadharma

I don't know about which sanAtana-dharma you are talking. Atleast, sanAtana-dharma based on veda-s is not of such nature. varNa is it's very important part as yAga, etc. are for specific adhikArin-s with specific varNa-s.
A little more study will reveal to you that chAturvarNya is the sign of vaidika-dharma.
 

and our own life styles is an example of  this.

Those who transgress vaidika-vidhi-s, etc. are in no way example for vaidika-s.
Remember tattirIyakopaniShat -yAnyasmAkam sucharitAni,............
 

If you are not for this, it naturally shows that you are not in tune with the anubhava

Bowing down to kAma, etc. is not puruShArtha. So, these people are not one with you.
Moreover, remember that chAturvarNya, etc. is not extinct yet(instead of your prophecy).
 

and hence I only have to say svasti tubhyaM vitaNDinE!

Same tactics as used by SMJ, etc.
Anyway, vitaNDA need very special quality. So, we are proud of having this ability. Now, save your views.

[Ganesan]

--

From my experience in cataloguing different types of manuscripts belonging to Tamil speaking Jaina-s in Tamilnadu which I catalogued a few years back,  I found to my surprise texts that treat the ritual of CAATURVARNYA SANDHYAAVANDANAVIDHI composed in very good Sanskrit and written neatly in Grantha script of the Jaina-s (I should say to the credit of the present day Jaina-s, that they take real pains to preserve those fragile old palm-leaf manuscripts).

 All of us know that both Buddhism and Jainism since their beginning were avowedly against the Vedic VarNaashrama system. But curiously these unpublished texts found in the palm-leaf bundle describe in detail the rite of sandhyaavandana to be practised by Jain-s born in four varNa-s !!!!

And, lo wait! what is more, I was told that the priests that conduct worship in the ancient Jaina temples situated in some parts of Tamilnadu are called 'VaattiyAr' just as BrahmaNa purohita-s are called in Tamil; and, further, only the son of a jaina 'Vaattiyaar' is qualified to do worship in the Jaina temple and not any lay Jaina. I found that in many villages they strictly follow that rule.

So CaaturvarNyam is by birth and cannot be otherwise.

This is attested to even by the practice of followers of Avaidika religious systems such as the Jaina=-s WHO AT THE EBGINNING (2500 YEARS BACK) SWORE BY EQUALITY OF ALL AND TRIED EVERY OTHER METHOD TO DEMOLISH THE VEDIC VARNASHRAMA SYSTEM AT LEAST IN THEIR TEXTS.

Ganesan

-- 

[Ganesh R]

Dear Mr. Ganesan,

It is no wonder that the Jains practiced varNaashrama-s. It too clear in their religious texts. but the Buddhists do not follow the system of varNa. But even in them we see aashrama-s.  The crux of the issue is do we have an exit option in the varNa and ashramma systems as prescribed in the dharmashaastra-s by and large? As for my study in the dhasrmashaastric literature, the exit option is an exceptionally rare thing. But it used to be seen  t least in the earlier works. This used to be even more so in actual practice. But not at all found in the later works. Much of our orthodoxy, even to this   day, is unfortunately based on these utopian texts of watertight compartments and conveniently avoids at times facing the hard realities of artha and kaama. While facing the intellectual challenges, debates using pseudo-logic which are obviously full of logical fallacies as it lacks anubhava-niShThaa. But the modern world, supposed to have  based on freedom, equality/equal opportunities  and reasoning gives an exit option. People who are enjoying/suffering these should seriously and honestly  too focus their minds on this aspect which is the crux of the problem, if any:-)

regards

ganesh 

[Shrikant Jamadagni]

Dear Sir, You have clearly answered that varna-identity is by birth only. In today's time what does it mean - practically? A particular varna holds one eligible for certain kind of work/occupation and ineligible for others. In arthashastra Kautilya mentions what are the various works for shudra. Similarly, today what occupations(s) is a shudra eligible for?  If a sweepers son attends school/college etc. and does well then what work should he pursue? regards Shrikant Jamadagni Bangalore --- On Wed, 11/7/12, Shrivathsa B <shrivath...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Shrivathsa B]

hariH OM,
shrii Shrikant,

   What does the varNa vyavasthA mean practically? The varNavyavasthA is based on the framework of duties. What is one's duty will not be another's. This presents a different world view altogether. Moreover, one doing the duties assigned to one's varNa will be doing his svadharma. performance of svadharma is "good" ultimately.

   Don't mix up frameworks. cAturvarNya doesn't talk about sweepers. It talks about four varNas. If you are specific about the varNa of the sweeper, we may progress further in our discussion.
Side information:
Ref1: http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm
Ref2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Xgc4ljHKM&feature=player_embedded

svasti,
              JAYA BHAVAANII BHAARATII,
                                                                shrivathsa terothmaDom.

2012/7/12 Shrikant Jamadagni <shrik...@yahoo.co.in>

[Shrivathsa B]

hariH OM,
gaNesh Sir,

"My only contention is difference is the very nature of this world and one has to transcend  it."

   Is this the sAmAnya dharma you are expecting out of the world? What if one doesn't want to transcend it? The vast majority in the world for whom adhyAtma, anubhava etc. mean precious little. What do you prescribe for those? shAstra has to address everyone in the society, not some selected few.

" In this process, the rUpa has to be changed and the svarUpa remains unchanged. varna or jaati are only too peripheral to  sanaatanadharma and our own life styles is an example of  this."

   This is just like saying "Ayurveda prescribes a healthy lifestyle, and as the majority of people are not in tune with the lifestyle prescribed by Ayurveda, let us change the texts of Ayurveda"! I don't know what you mean by saying varNa is peripheral to sanAtana dharma. It is the very nature of sanAtana dharma.

"If you are not for this, it naturally shows that you are not in tune with the anubhava and hence I only have to say svasti tubhyaM vitaNDinE!"

   Above has been answered before. The question is not about anubhava. The question is about what one deduces out of one's anubhava. According to you, the shAstra needs emendation. According to us, it doesn't.

svasti,
              JAYA BHAVAANII BHAARATII,
                                                               shrivathsa.

2012/7/11 Ganesh R <avadhan...@gmail.com>

[Raghuram RP]

Abhivadaye,

 

Just to bring back the focus to the intital topic raised, the name of the Samskrita lady professor who made the claims is "Dr Kaushal Pawar", teaches Samskrita in Delhi University. I wanted some pointers on how to answer the questions raised. Do dharmashastras proclaim that shudras have to wear smell clothes and other claims made in the show? If yes how do we interpret it and send a reply. I atleast want to put a comment on the SMJ website giving some clarifications. I would request the help of esteemed scholars in the foru,

 

Raghuram

[Shrikant Jamadagni]

Dear Sir, The sweeper in question is a shudra. I once again request you to respond on the main question I asked - namely; what works/occupations is someone belonging to shudra-varna eligible to perform? regards Shrikant Jamadagni Bangalore

[Shrivathsa B]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shrivathsa B <shrivath...@gmail.com>
Date: 2012/7/12
Subject: Re: Fwd: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Untouchability - Satyameva Jayate Latest Episode
To: Shrikant Jamadagni <shrik...@yahoo.co.in>

hariH OM,
shri shrikant,

   Whatever is the paramparAgata profession, it is best to follow that (this is a guideline and cannot be imposed).

1. If your contention is someone being educated should not perform such and such duties, then the discrimination is in your mind. No work is great or small. Every work is as important as the other.
2. If your contention is that sweeping profession is not well paid, then it is a matter for policy emendation, not shAstra emendation.
3. Every profession should have enough money for an honest worker to live a comfortable life. This was what was in practice in bhArata for a very long time (as far as i know). Moreover, basic necessities of life were never monetized (as per kauTilya).
   

(side note: Everytime I visit my barber for a haircut and shave, I feel envious of his remuneration :-) For about half an hour of work, he takes Rs. 130. I am sure he earns no less than Rs. 1500 to 2000 per day)

svasti,
             JAYA BHAVAANII BHAARATII,
                                                              shrivathsa.

[Veeranarayana Pandurangi]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:59 PM, Shrivathsa B <shrivath...@gmail.com> wrote:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shrivathsa B <shrivath...@gmail.com>
Date: 2012/7/12
Subject: Re: Fwd: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Untouchability - Satyameva Jayate Latest Episode
To: Shrikant Jamadagni <shrik...@yahoo.co.in>

hariH OM,
shri shrikant,

   Whatever is the paramparAgata profession, it is best to follow that (this is a guideline and cannot be imposed).

1. If your contention is someone being educated should not perform such and such duties, then the discrimination is in your mind. No work is great or small. Every work is as important as the other.
2. If your contention is that sweeping profession is not well paid, then it is a matter for policy emendation, not shAstra emendation.
3. Every profession should have enough money for an honest worker to live a comfortable life. This was what was in practice in bhArata for a very long time (as far as i know). Moreover, basic necessities of life were never monetized (as per kauTilya).
   

in fact it does not have. it never had. but since the cost of living was at its lowest in past people lived. but no more. 

(side note: Everytime I visit my barber for a haircut and shave, I feel envious of his remuneration :-) For about half an hour of work, he takes Rs. 130. I am sure he earns no less than Rs. 1500 to 2000 per day)

but it is a hard joke on poor laborer of india. It is shamefull for india that its people still die by hunger and poverty. no more the येनास्य पितरो याताः येन याताः पितामहाः is applicable. 

--

Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
Head, Dept of Darshanas,
Yoganandacharya Bhavan,
Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026.

अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि।

ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।।

तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः।