In the latest episode of SJ, we saw a lady Samskrita Professor who accuses
shastras of encouraging untochability. She claimed that our shastras say
that shudras should always wear clothes that smell (bad smell). They should
always be dependent on higher castes for food and are not supposed to do
anything on their own. I would request the scholars to confirm if our
dharmashastras say so. They also claimed that the purusha soktha rik
(brahmana came from the mouth, etc.. - was shown that the verse exists in
Manusmrithi) was the source of all this problems (untouchability). I wanted
to know where such quotes are given and is this the right method to
interpret the quotes.
> In the latest episode of SJ, we saw a lady Samskrita Professor who accuses
> shastras of encouraging untochability. She claimed that our shastras say
> that shudras should always wear clothes that smell (bad smell). They should
> always be dependent on higher castes for food and are not supposed to do
> anything on their own. I would request the scholars to confirm if our
> dharmashastras say so. They also claimed that the purusha soktha rik
> (brahmana came from the mouth, etc.. - was shown that the verse exists in
> Manusmrithi) was the source of all this problems (untouchability). I wanted
> to know where such quotes are given and is this the right method to
> interpret the quotes.
If one is to find fault with Sanskrit texts in that manner, then by
the same token, we should grant that the Koran's explicit messages to
Muslims to kill infidels is ultimately responsible for much of the
violence and terrorism in the world today, and for the rather pathetic
state of Islamic society in general (it having regressed from being a
repository of learning and culture in earlier centuries, before
Islamic fanaticism could take hold). Thus, much worse can be said of
the Koran (cf. http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/die_kill.htm)
in the same way. Would Aamir Khan risk a fatwa on his head to say
such things then also?
Regards,
Shrisha Rao
> --
> Regards
> Raghuram
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Untouchability - Satyameva Jayate Latest
Episode
To: shrisha.r...@gmail.com
Thank you Mr.Shirsha Rao...well said by you.... The beauty and nobility of
our shastra-s is in transcending them and this is not all thought of by the
Semitic religions. All the objections laid down by the people like SJ and
co are only restricted to the viSEShadhrama-s and these differ from time to
time and place to place. As Sri Shankara has clearly said, these are all
puruSha/kartRtantra-s and not the timeless vstutantra-s or
saamaanya-dharma-s. All such quires are well answered by people like Swami
Vivekananda, Swmi chinmayaananda, mahaamahOpaadhyaaya P.V.Kane, M.
Hiriyanna and many more.
ganesh
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Shrisha Rao <sh...@dvaita.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Raghuram RP
> <raghuram...@purnapramati.in> wrote:
> > Abhivadaye Scholars,
> > In the latest episode of SJ, we saw a lady Samskrita Professor who
> accuses
> > shastras of encouraging untochability. She claimed that our shastras say
> > that shudras should always wear clothes that smell (bad smell). They
> should
> > always be dependent on higher castes for food and are not supposed to do
> > anything on their own. I would request the scholars to confirm if our
> > dharmashastras say so. They also claimed that the purusha soktha rik
> > (brahmana came from the mouth, etc.. - was shown that the verse exists in
> > Manusmrithi) was the source of all this problems (untouchability). I
> wanted
> > to know where such quotes are given and is this the right method to
> > interpret the quotes.
> If one is to find fault with Sanskrit texts in that manner, then by
> the same token, we should grant that the Koran's explicit messages to
> Muslims to kill infidels is ultimately responsible for much of the
> violence and terrorism in the world today, and for the rather pathetic
> state of Islamic society in general (it having regressed from being a
> repository of learning and culture in earlier centuries, before
> Islamic fanaticism could take hold). Thus, much worse can be said of
> the Koran (cf. http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/die_kill.htm)
> in the same way. Would Aamir Khan risk a fatwa on his head to say
> such things then also?
> Regards,
> Shrisha Rao
> > --
> > Regards
> > Raghuram
> > --
> > निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> > to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> > https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
One should also add the names of Sri Aurobindo, Veer Savarkar among others who have also clarified.
In my view - in the ancient days where there were self-contained communities, a son inherited his fathers occupational-skills and also the right to it. A "right-to-work" - to use todays political terminology! This old system is disappearing simply because it is no longer useful or necessary as a general principle.
But one cannot deny very blunt language used by maharshi Manu and other smrtikaras with regards to sudras. This obviously is fodder for anti-Hinduism. In the absence of a central authority among Hindus, a mahasabha of various denominations could make a formal declaration of the end of the apparently iron-clad-caste-system of old times.
regards
Shrikant Jamadagni
Bangalore
--- On Mon, 9/7/12, Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Untouchability - Satyameva Jayate Latest Episode
To: shrisha.r...@gmail.com
Thank you Mr.Shirsha Rao...well said by you.... The beauty and nobility of our shastra-s is in transcending them and this is not all thought of by the Semitic religions. All the objections laid down by the people like SJ and co are only restricted to the viSEShadhrama-s and these differ from time to time and place to place. As Sri Shankara has clearly said, these are all puruSha/kartRtantra-s and not the timeless vstutantra-s or saamaanya-dharma-s. All such quires are well answered by people like Swami Vivekananda, Swmi chinmayaananda, mahaamahOpaadhyaaya P.V.Kane, M. Hiriyanna and many more.
ganesh
On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Shrisha Rao <sh...@dvaita.org> wrote:
I am also afraid a bit after watching that SJ episode. A poor Kashi Pandit
has been interviewed whether he attests the practice of untouchablity. He
has not only said yes, but also answered that our constitution is against *
shastra*. So, he can't accept constitution as an authority. Of course, it
was an individual opinion.
As rightly said by Dr.Ganesh ji, such practices were relative to
times/places. In a globalized and knowledge (?) society, such instances may
occur in feeble number. It was said that 'कलौ पाराशरस्मृतिः'. Since it is
popular Manu is widely followed. Also, I doubt the authenticity of blunt
language used by Manu etc. Because, our Sanskrit scholars are very
creative. An 'x' creates a work and attributes it to some 'y'. Even the
great Mahabharatam is not an exception from interpolations as interpreted
by BORI, Pune.
It is the collective duty of mathadhipathis, swamijis to counteract the
anti-Hindu statements. But how many of them really come out? Forget about
Amir khan, but who dares to accept the risk of a 'fatwa'. All this is due
to foreign influence and their strong impression on our psyche. You are
considered an 'intellectual' if you speak against Hindutva (not orthodox
Hindutva). Rajiv Malhotra is touring all over the world to voice his strong
views in this connection.
Sri Shrisharao's response is very worthy but that is not a solution as it
may reflect the adage - 'eye for an eye'. I am curious to know is there any
other kind of interpretation to 'ब्राह्मणोस्य मुखमासीत्' and so on? An
electrical engineer, Sri Satish Chandra in Bangalore had worked for a
couple of decades to interpret purusha suktha otherwise and derived a new
meaning of electrical engineering! He has built a generator that multiplies
the input power four times. The interesting factor is it doesn't use any
fuel but absorbs cosmic energy. HH Sri Bharati Tirtha Swamiji has visited
his institution.
I for one, look for the *samskara* and personal hygiene of my next person,
nothing else.
Regards,
Prasad
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Shrikant Jamadagni <shrikan...@yahoo.co.in
> One should also add the names of Sri Aurobindo, Veer Savarkar among
> others who have also clarified.
> In my view - in the ancient days where there were self-contained
> communities, a son inherited his fathers occupational-skills and also the
> right to it. A "right-to-work" - to use todays political terminology!
> This old system is disappearing simply because it is no longer useful or
> necessary as a general principle.
> But one cannot deny very blunt language used by maharshi Manu and other
> smrtikaras with regards to sudras. This obviously is fodder for
> anti-Hinduism. In the absence of a central authority among Hindus, a
> mahasabha of various denominations could make a formal declaration of the
> end of the apparently iron-clad-caste-system of old times.
> regards
> Shrikant Jamadagni
> Bangalore
> --- On *Mon, 9/7/12, Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com>* wrote:
> Thank you Mr.Shirsha Rao...well said by you.... The beauty and nobility of
> our shastra-s is in transcending them and this is not all thought of by the
> Semitic religions. All the objections laid down by the people like SJ and
> co are only restricted to the viSEShadhrama-s and these differ from time to
> time and place to place. As Sri Shankara has clearly said, these are all
> puruSha/kartRtantra-s and not the timeless vstutantra-s or
> saamaanya-dharma-s. All such quires are well answered by people like Swami
> Vivekananda, Swmi chinmayaananda, mahaamahOpaadhyaaya P.V.Kane, M.
> Hiriyanna and many more.
> ganesh
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Shrisha Rao <sh...@dvaita.org<http://mc/compose?to=sh...@dvaita.org>
> > wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Raghuram RP
> <raghuram...@purnapramati.in<http://mc/compose?to=raghuram...@purnapramati.in>>
> wrote:
> > Abhivadaye Scholars,
> > In the latest episode of SJ, we saw a lady Samskrita Professor who
> accuses
> > shastras of encouraging untochability. She claimed that our shastras say
> > that shudras should always wear clothes that smell (bad smell). They
> should
> > always be dependent on higher castes for food and are not supposed to do
> > anything on their own. I would request the scholars to confirm if our
> > dharmashastras say so. They also claimed that the purusha soktha rik
> > (brahmana came from the mouth, etc.. - was shown that the verse exists in
> > Manusmrithi) was the source of all this problems (untouchability). I
> wanted
> > to know where such quotes are given and is this the right method to
> > interpret the quotes.
> If one is to find fault with Sanskrit texts in that manner, then by
> the same token, we should grant that the Koran's explicit messages to
> Muslims to kill infidels is ultimately responsible for much of the
> violence and terrorism in the world today, and for the rather pathetic
> state of Islamic society in general (it having regressed from being a
> repository of learning and culture in earlier centuries, before
> Islamic fanaticism could take hold). Thus, much worse can be said of
> the Koran (cf. http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/die_kill.htm)
> in the same way. Would Aamir Khan risk a fatwa on his head to say
> such things then also?
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
-- Dr. Jsra Prasad,
Asst. Professor, Dept. of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad, Prof. C.R. Rao Road,
Hyderabad - 500 046 Tel: 040-2313 3803
Thanks for your inputs and me too have felt many times that all our
yati-s, peeThaadhipati-s and traditional scholars shouldl come forward and
declare as you said. technically too there is nothing wrong it as we know
the famous dictum : kaalE kaalE navaacaarO navaa vaaNee mukhE mukhE and all
this is noting but a vishEShadharma, just rooted in rUpa and not at all in
svarUpa. I feel that BVP would lead in this direction so that the guns of
forums/programs/people of the sort of satyamEva jayatE are well challenged.
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Jsra Prasad <jsrapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Respected Scholars,
> I am also afraid a bit after watching that SJ episode. A poor Kashi Pandit
> has been interviewed whether he attests the practice of untouchablity. He
> has not only said yes, but also answered that our constitution is against
> *shastra*. So, he can't accept constitution as an authority. Of course,
> it was an individual opinion.
> As rightly said by Dr.Ganesh ji, such practices were relative to
> times/places. In a globalized and knowledge (?) society, such instances may
> occur in feeble number. It was said that 'कलौ पाराशरस्मृतिः'. Since it is
> popular Manu is widely followed. Also, I doubt the authenticity of blunt
> language used by Manu etc. Because, our Sanskrit scholars are very
> creative. An 'x' creates a work and attributes it to some 'y'. Even the
> great Mahabharatam is not an exception from interpolations as interpreted
> by BORI, Pune.
> It is the collective duty of mathadhipathis, swamijis to counteract the
> anti-Hindu statements. But how many of them really come out? Forget about
> Amir khan, but who dares to accept the risk of a 'fatwa'. All this is due
> to foreign influence and their strong impression on our psyche. You are
> considered an 'intellectual' if you speak against Hindutva (not orthodox
> Hindutva). Rajiv Malhotra is touring all over the world to voice his strong
> views in this connection.
> Sri Shrisharao's response is very worthy but that is not a solution as it
> may reflect the adage - 'eye for an eye'. I am curious to know is there any
> other kind of interpretation to 'ब्राह्मणोस्य मुखमासीत्' and so on? An
> electrical engineer, Sri Satish Chandra in Bangalore had worked for a
> couple of decades to interpret purusha suktha otherwise and derived a new
> meaning of electrical engineering! He has built a generator that multiplies
> the input power four times. The interesting factor is it doesn't use any
> fuel but absorbs cosmic energy. HH Sri Bharati Tirtha Swamiji has visited
> his institution.
> I for one, look for the *samskara* and personal hygiene of my next
> person, nothing else.
> Regards,
> Prasad
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Shrikant Jamadagni <
> shrikan...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>> Dear Dr. Ganesh
>> One should also add the names of Sri Aurobindo, Veer Savarkar among
>> others who have also clarified.
>> In my view - in the ancient days where there were self-contained
>> communities, a son inherited his fathers occupational-skills and also the
>> right to it. A "right-to-work" - to use todays political terminology!
>> This old system is disappearing simply because it is no longer useful or
>> necessary as a general principle.
>> But one cannot deny very blunt language used by maharshi Manu and other
>> smrtikaras with regards to sudras. This obviously is fodder for
>> anti-Hinduism. In the absence of a central authority among Hindus, a
>> mahasabha of various denominations could make a formal declaration of the
>> end of the apparently iron-clad-caste-system of old times.
>> regards
>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>> Bangalore
>> --- On *Mon, 9/7/12, Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com>* wrote:
>> Thank you Mr.Shirsha Rao...well said by you.... The beauty and nobility
>> of our shastra-s is in transcending them and this is not all thought of by
>> the Semitic religions. All the objections laid down by the people like SJ
>> and co are only restricted to the viSEShadhrama-s and these differ from
>> time to time and place to place. As Sri Shankara has clearly said, these
>> are all puruSha/kartRtantra-s and not the timeless vstutantra-s or
>> saamaanya-dharma-s. All such quires are well answered by people like Swami
>> Vivekananda, Swmi chinmayaananda, mahaamahOpaadhyaaya P.V.Kane, M.
>> Hiriyanna and many more.
>> ganesh
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Shrisha Rao <sh...@dvaita.org<http://mc/compose?to=sh...@dvaita.org>
>> > wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Raghuram RP
>> <raghuram...@purnapramati.in<http://mc/compose?to=raghuram...@purnapramati.in>>
>> wrote:
>> > Abhivadaye Scholars,
>> > In the latest episode of SJ, we saw a lady Samskrita Professor who
>> accuses
>> > shastras of encouraging untochability. She claimed that our shastras say
>> > that shudras should always wear clothes that smell (bad smell). They
>> should
>> > always be dependent on higher castes for food and are not supposed to do
>> > anything on their own. I would request the scholars to confirm if our
>> > dharmashastras say so. They also claimed that the purusha soktha rik
>> > (brahmana came from the mouth, etc.. - was shown that the verse exists
>> in
>> > Manusmrithi) was the source of all this problems (untouchability). I
>> wanted
>> > to know where such quotes are given and is this the right method to
>> > interpret the quotes.
>> If one is to find fault with Sanskrit texts in that manner, then by
>> the same token, we should grant that the Koran's explicit messages to
>> Muslims to kill infidels is ultimately responsible for much of the
>> violence and terrorism in the world today, and for the rather pathetic
>> state of Islamic society in general (it having regressed from being a
>> repository of learning and culture in earlier centuries, before
>> Islamic fanaticism could take hold). Thus, much worse can be said of
>> the Koran (cf. http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/die_kill.htm)
>> in the same way. Would Aamir Khan risk a fatwa on his head to say
>> such things then also?
>> --
>> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
>> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
>> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> --
>> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
>> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
>> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> --
> Dr. Jsra Prasad,
> Asst. Professor, Dept. of Sanskrit Studies
> University of Hyderabad, Prof. C.R. Rao Road,
> Hyderabad - 500 046 Tel: 040-2313 3803
Dear Shrikant ji,
You have made a very pertinent statement.
It has so far not been possible to get our traditional Dharmacharys like
Jagadguu Shankaracharyas to endorse these much needed clarifications on
gender equality and caste based differentiations. Persons of the stature of
Aurobindo, Vivekand, Swami Dayanand, Guru Nanak, Kabir have been making
such desired efforts over centuries, but even their efforts often seem
ineffective.
How and what strategy should evolve goes back to the basics of poverty
alleviation through Education/ Skill development, decentralised economies
such as a house hold cow providing unadulterated nutrition to the family
and society by organic food at least in rural sector.
In India every thing tends to degenerate in to self oriented power centres.
Our successive Govts and planning commission have very noble intentions but
every thing is lost in its mode of implementation. Panchayat Raj was
conceived only on this wisdom of 'small is beautiful' , but see what has it
come to.
I wonder if scholars of BVP can suggest some positive strategies.
Subodh Kumar
On 10 July 2012 12:03, Shrikant Jamadagni <shrikan...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
> One should also add the names of Sri Aurobindo, Veer Savarkar among
> others who have also clarified.
> In my view - in the ancient days where there were self-contained
> communities, a son inherited his fathers occupational-skills and also the
> right to it. A "right-to-work" - to use todays political terminology!
> This old system is disappearing simply because it is no longer useful or
> necessary as a general principle.
> But one cannot deny very blunt language used by maharshi Manu and other
> smrtikaras with regards to sudras. This obviously is fodder for
> anti-Hinduism. In the absence of a central authority among Hindus, a
> mahasabha of various denominations could make a formal declaration of the
> end of the apparently iron-clad-caste-system of old times.
> regards
> Shrikant Jamadagni
> Bangalore
> --- On *Mon, 9/7/12, Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com>* wrote:
> Thank you Mr.Shirsha Rao...well said by you.... The beauty and nobility of
> our shastra-s is in transcending them and this is not all thought of by the
> Semitic religions. All the objections laid down by the people like SJ and
> co are only restricted to the viSEShadhrama-s and these differ from time to
> time and place to place. As Sri Shankara has clearly said, these are all
> puruSha/kartRtantra-s and not the timeless vstutantra-s or
> saamaanya-dharma-s. All such quires are well answered by people like Swami
> Vivekananda, Swmi chinmayaananda, mahaamahOpaadhyaaya P.V.Kane, M.
> Hiriyanna and many more.
> ganesh
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Shrisha Rao <sh...@dvaita.org<http://mc/compose?to=sh...@dvaita.org>
> > wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Raghuram RP
> <raghuram...@purnapramati.in<http://mc/compose?to=raghuram...@purnapramati.in>>
> wrote:
> > Abhivadaye Scholars,
> > In the latest episode of SJ, we saw a lady Samskrita Professor who
> accuses
> > shastras of encouraging untochability. She claimed that our shastras say
> > that shudras should always wear clothes that smell (bad smell). They
> should
> > always be dependent on higher castes for food and are not supposed to do
> > anything on their own. I would request the scholars to confirm if our
> > dharmashastras say so. They also claimed that the purusha soktha rik
> > (brahmana came from the mouth, etc.. - was shown that the verse exists in
> > Manusmrithi) was the source of all this problems (untouchability). I
> wanted
> > to know where such quotes are given and is this the right method to
> > interpret the quotes.
> If one is to find fault with Sanskrit texts in that manner, then by
> the same token, we should grant that the Koran's explicit messages to
> Muslims to kill infidels is ultimately responsible for much of the
> violence and terrorism in the world today, and for the rather pathetic
> state of Islamic society in general (it having regressed from being a
> repository of learning and culture in earlier centuries, before
> Islamic fanaticism could take hold). Thus, much worse can be said of
> the Koran (cf. http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/die_kill.htm)
> in the same way. Would Aamir Khan risk a fatwa on his head to say
> such things then also?
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
-- Subodh Kumar,
C-61 Ramprasth,
Ghaziabad-201011
Mobile-9810612898
Maharshi Dayanand Gosamwardhan Kendra , Delhi-96
http://subodh-vedainspirations.blogspot.com http://subodh-cowsinindia.blogspot.com *A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because
his trust is NOT on the branch but on it's own WINGS !! *
*Believe in yourself & WIN the world..*
.
Dont you think that sudras were neglected in our society when Brahmanas
ruled. Even today upper cast people cant accept lower cast for their son or
daughter's marriage. We so called literate people do injustice to not only
backward class but also lower casts. I can give you many sources or
examples from our Purana literature.
Regards,
Reeta Bhattacharya
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 10:50 PM, Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Sri. Srikanth Jamadagni,
> Thanks for your inputs and me too have felt many times that all our
> yati-s, peeThaadhipati-s and traditional scholars shouldl come forward and
> declare as you said. technically too there is nothing wrong it as we know
> the famous dictum : kaalE kaalE navaacaarO navaa vaaNee mukhE mukhE and all
> this is noting but a vishEShadharma, just rooted in rUpa and not at all in
> svarUpa. I feel that BVP would lead in this direction so that the guns of
> forums/programs/people of the sort of satyamEva jayatE are well challenged.
> regards
> ganesh
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Jsra Prasad <jsrapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Respected Scholars,
>> I am also afraid a bit after watching that SJ episode. A poor Kashi
>> Pandit has been interviewed whether he attests the practice of
>> untouchablity. He has not only said yes, but also answered that our
>> constitution is against *shastra*. So, he can't accept constitution as
>> an authority. Of course, it was an individual opinion.
>> As rightly said by Dr.Ganesh ji, such practices were relative to
>> times/places. In a globalized and knowledge (?) society, such instances may
>> occur in feeble number. It was said that 'कलौ पाराशरस्मृतिः'. Since it is
>> popular Manu is widely followed. Also, I doubt the authenticity of blunt
>> language used by Manu etc. Because, our Sanskrit scholars are very
>> creative. An 'x' creates a work and attributes it to some 'y'. Even the
>> great Mahabharatam is not an exception from interpolations as interpreted
>> by BORI, Pune.
>> It is the collective duty of mathadhipathis, swamijis to counteract the
>> anti-Hindu statements. But how many of them really come out? Forget about
>> Amir khan, but who dares to accept the risk of a 'fatwa'. All this is due
>> to foreign influence and their strong impression on our psyche. You are
>> considered an 'intellectual' if you speak against Hindutva (not orthodox
>> Hindutva). Rajiv Malhotra is touring all over the world to voice his strong
>> views in this connection.
>> Sri Shrisharao's response is very worthy but that is not a solution as it
>> may reflect the adage - 'eye for an eye'. I am curious to know is there any
>> other kind of interpretation to 'ब्राह्मणोस्य मुखमासीत्' and so on? An
>> electrical engineer, Sri Satish Chandra in Bangalore had worked for a
>> couple of decades to interpret purusha suktha otherwise and derived a new
>> meaning of electrical engineering! He has built a generator that multiplies
>> the input power four times. The interesting factor is it doesn't use any
>> fuel but absorbs cosmic energy. HH Sri Bharati Tirtha Swamiji has visited
>> his institution.
>> I for one, look for the *samskara* and personal hygiene of my next
>> person, nothing else.
>> Regards,
>> Prasad
>> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Shrikant Jamadagni <
>> shrikan...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>> Dear Dr. Ganesh
>>> One should also add the names of Sri Aurobindo, Veer Savarkar among
>>> others who have also clarified.
>>> In my view - in the ancient days where there were self-contained
>>> communities, a son inherited his fathers occupational-skills and also the
>>> right to it. A "right-to-work" - to use todays political terminology!
>>> This old system is disappearing simply because it is no longer useful or
>>> necessary as a general principle.
>>> But one cannot deny very blunt language used by maharshi Manu and other
>>> smrtikaras with regards to sudras. This obviously is fodder for
>>> anti-Hinduism. In the absence of a central authority among Hindus, a
>>> mahasabha of various denominations could make a formal declaration of the
>>> end of the apparently iron-clad-caste-system of old times.
>>> regards
>>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>>> Bangalore
>>> --- On *Mon, 9/7/12, Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com>* wrote:
>>> Thank you Mr.Shirsha Rao...well said by you.... The beauty and nobility
>>> of our shastra-s is in transcending them and this is not all thought of by
>>> the Semitic religions. All the objections laid down by the people like SJ
>>> and co are only restricted to the viSEShadhrama-s and these differ from
>>> time to time and place to place. As Sri Shankara has clearly said, these
>>> are all puruSha/kartRtantra-s and not the timeless vstutantra-s or
>>> saamaanya-dharma-s. All such quires are well answered by people like Swami
>>> Vivekananda, Swmi chinmayaananda, mahaamahOpaadhyaaya P.V.Kane, M.
>>> Hiriyanna and many more.
>>> ganesh
>>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Shrisha Rao <sh...@dvaita.org<http://mc/compose?to=sh...@dvaita.org>
>>> > wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Raghuram RP
>>> <raghuram...@purnapramati.in<http://mc/compose?to=raghuram...@purnapramati.in>>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Abhivadaye Scholars,
>>> > In the latest episode of SJ, we saw a lady Samskrita Professor who
>>> accuses
>>> > shastras of encouraging untochability. She claimed that our shastras
>>> say
>>> > that shudras should always wear clothes that smell (bad smell). They
>>> should
>>> > always be dependent on higher castes for food and are not supposed to
>>> do
>>> > anything on their own. I would request the scholars to confirm if our
>>> > dharmashastras say so. They also claimed that the purusha soktha rik
>>> > (brahmana came from the mouth, etc.. - was shown that the verse exists
>>> in
>>> > Manusmrithi) was the source of all this problems (untouchability). I
>>> wanted
>>> > to know where such quotes are given and is this the right method to
>>> > interpret the quotes.
>>> If one is to find fault with Sanskrit texts in that manner, then by
>>> the same token, we should grant that the Koran's explicit messages to
>>> Muslims to kill infidels is ultimately responsible for much of the
>>> violence and terrorism in the world today, and for the rather pathetic
>>> state of Islamic society in general (it having regressed from being a
>>> repository of learning and culture in earlier centuries, before
>>> Islamic fanaticism could take hold). Thus, much worse can be said of
>>> the Koran (cf. http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/die_kill.htm)
>>> in the same way. Would Aamir Khan risk a fatwa on his head to say
>>> such things then also?
>>> --
>>> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
>>> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
>>> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>> --
>>> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
>>> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
>>> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> --
>> Dr. Jsra Prasad,
>> Asst. Professor, Dept. of Sanskrit Studies
>> University of Hyderabad, Prof. C.R. Rao Road,
>> Hyderabad - 500 046 Tel: 040-2313 3803
Dear Scholors,
SJ episode may be just one of the many instances. We
face this question repeatedly from various people espacially from
conversion-hungry missioneries, muslims, sometimes from socalled lower
caste hindus who are under the same impression. The fact is there is a
widespread perception that Caste System(with that Untouchabilty) is
invitable in Hinduism. And Missioneries are using it to their advantage. I
request all the scholors here to guide us to answer such critics. it may
include taking our message agressively to the masses or setting our house
in order.
Please guide us
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Sri. Srikanth Jamadagni,
> Thanks for your inputs and me too have felt many times that all our
> yati-s, peeThaadhipati-s and traditional scholars shouldl come forward and
> declare as you said. technically too there is nothing wrong it as we know
> the famous dictum : kaalE kaalE navaacaarO navaa vaaNee mukhE mukhE and all
> this is noting but a vishEShadharma, just rooted in rUpa and not at all in
> svarUpa. I feel that BVP would lead in this direction so that the guns of
> forums/programs/people of the sort of satyamEva jayatE are well challenged.
> regards
> ganesh
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Jsra Prasad <jsrapra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Respected Scholars,
>> I am also afraid a bit after watching that SJ episode. A poor Kashi
>> Pandit has been interviewed whether he attests the practice of
>> untouchablity. He has not only said yes, but also answered that our
>> constitution is against *shastra*. So, he can't accept constitution as
>> an authority. Of course, it was an individual opinion.
>> As rightly said by Dr.Ganesh ji, such practices were relative to
>> times/places. In a globalized and knowledge (?) society, such instances may
>> occur in feeble number. It was said that 'कलौ पाराशरस्मृतिः'. Since it is
>> popular Manu is widely followed. Also, I doubt the authenticity of blunt
>> language used by Manu etc. Because, our Sanskrit scholars are very
>> creative. An 'x' creates a work and attributes it to some 'y'. Even the
>> great Mahabharatam is not an exception from interpolations as interpreted
>> by BORI, Pune.
>> It is the collective duty of mathadhipathis, swamijis to counteract the
>> anti-Hindu statements. But how many of them really come out? Forget about
>> Amir khan, but who dares to accept the risk of a 'fatwa'. All this is due
>> to foreign influence and their strong impression on our psyche. You are
>> considered an 'intellectual' if you speak against Hindutva (not orthodox
>> Hindutva). Rajiv Malhotra is touring all over the world to voice his strong
>> views in this connection.
>> Sri Shrisharao's response is very worthy but that is not a solution as it
>> may reflect the adage - 'eye for an eye'. I am curious to know is there any
>> other kind of interpretation to 'ब्राह्मणोस्य मुखमासीत्' and so on? An
>> electrical engineer, Sri Satish Chandra in Bangalore had worked for a
>> couple of decades to interpret purusha suktha otherwise and derived a new
>> meaning of electrical engineering! He has built a generator that multiplies
>> the input power four times. The interesting factor is it doesn't use any
>> fuel but absorbs cosmic energy. HH Sri Bharati Tirtha Swamiji has visited
>> his institution.
>> I for one, look for the *samskara* and personal hygiene of my next
>> person, nothing else.
>> Regards,
>> Prasad
>> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Shrikant Jamadagni <
>> shrikan...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>> Dear Dr. Ganesh
>>> One should also add the names of Sri Aurobindo, Veer Savarkar among
>>> others who have also clarified.
>>> In my view - in the ancient days where there were self-contained
>>> communities, a son inherited his fathers occupational-skills and also the
>>> right to it. A "right-to-work" - to use todays political terminology!
>>> This old system is disappearing simply because it is no longer useful or
>>> necessary as a general principle.
>>> But one cannot deny very blunt language used by maharshi Manu and other
>>> smrtikaras with regards to sudras. This obviously is fodder for
>>> anti-Hinduism. In the absence of a central authority among Hindus, a
>>> mahasabha of various denominations could make a formal declaration of the
>>> end of the apparently iron-clad-caste-system of old times.
>>> regards
>>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>>> Bangalore
>>> --- On *Mon, 9/7/12, Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com>* wrote:
>>> Thank you Mr.Shirsha Rao...well said by you.... The beauty and nobility
>>> of our shastra-s is in transcending them and this is not all thought of by
>>> the Semitic religions. All the objections laid down by the people like SJ
>>> and co are only restricted to the viSEShadhrama-s and these differ from
>>> time to time and place to place. As Sri Shankara has clearly said, these
>>> are all puruSha/kartRtantra-s and not the timeless vstutantra-s or
>>> saamaanya-dharma-s. All such quires are well answered by people like Swami
>>> Vivekananda, Swmi chinmayaananda, mahaamahOpaadhyaaya P.V.Kane, M.
>>> Hiriyanna and many more.
>>> ganesh
>>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Shrisha Rao <sh...@dvaita.org<http://mc/compose?to=sh...@dvaita.org>
>>> > wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Raghuram RP
>>> <raghuram...@purnapramati.in<http://mc/compose?to=raghuram...@purnapramati.in>>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Abhivadaye Scholars,
>>> > In the latest episode of SJ, we saw a lady Samskrita Professor who
>>> accuses
>>> > shastras of encouraging untochability. She claimed that our shastras
>>> say
>>> > that shudras should always wear clothes that smell (bad smell). They
>>> should
>>> > always be dependent on higher castes for food and are not supposed to
>>> do
>>> > anything on their own. I would request the scholars to confirm if our
>>> > dharmashastras say so. They also claimed that the purusha soktha rik
>>> > (brahmana came from the mouth, etc.. - was shown that the verse exists
>>> in
>>> > Manusmrithi) was the source of all this problems (untouchability). I
>>> wanted
>>> > to know where such quotes are given and is this the right method to
>>> > interpret the quotes.
>>> If one is to find fault with Sanskrit texts in that manner, then by
>>> the same token, we should grant that the Koran's explicit messages to
>>> Muslims to kill infidels is ultimately responsible for much of the
>>> violence and terrorism in the world today, and for the rather pathetic
>>> state of Islamic society in general (it having regressed from being a
>>> repository of learning and culture in earlier centuries, before
>>> Islamic fanaticism could take hold). Thus, much worse can be said of
>>> the Koran (cf. http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/die_kill.htm)
>>> in the same way. Would Aamir Khan risk a fatwa on his head to say
>>> such things then also?
>>> --
>>> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
>>> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
>>> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>>> --
>>> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
>>> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
>>> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
>> --
>> Dr. Jsra Prasad,
>> Asst. Professor, Dept. of Sanskrit Studies
>> University of Hyderabad, Prof. C.R. Rao Road,
>> Hyderabad - 500
While we should accept and address the current way of caste system, it
is not entirely to blame our Shastras or Hindu dharma per se. Consider
this,
1. Purusha Sukta with its universal view, when it comes to talk about
society brings some analogies such as the scholars being the face of
the society, workers being the force that moves the society etc. Even
today we Engineers proudly say "Engineers run the world", likewise
Purusha sukta saying Shudras forming the fundamental base of Society
by which the society moves on. Scholars here know the meaning of the
word Shudra which is not opposing what I am saying.
2. Casteism is not unique to Hinduism. Wherever in the world human
popuplation is there, groupism is unavoidable. Each group thinks they
are better from others, its only group psychology. Islam,
Christianity, Buddhism all have their own intrinsic variety of caste.
Even after converting to Christian or Islam we can see people retain
their caste (such as Christian Brahmin or Christian Nadar etc) - such
is the power of group mentality.
3. Untouchability may have been due to plague kind of diseases
spreading in the past. Similarly feudal wars between Kings, resulted
in communities becoming "upper caste" (winners) or "lower
caste" (losers)... Some of the castes which are considered Shudra in
one place are not so in other places of India. Caste is not eternally
setup and up or down movement in Varna was very much there. Ambedkar
has written a lot about this.
4. I wish to bring, most of Vedic Rishis, great souls were not
Brahmins. Manu himself is a Kshatriya (pl correct if I am wrong) and
not a brahmin.
5. Another accusation I hear is, Hindus destroyed Buddhism/Jainism
from the land (Bharat) where they born. This is not true, Hinduism was
never an organized entity and never tried to wipe out Buddhists. It
was Islamic invasions that reduced Buddhists/Jains from this land.
Pardon my ignorance if said anything wrong.
dhanyavada:
Srikanth
On Jul 10, 10:57 pm, श्रीनिवासः(Srinivasa Karri) <karr...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Long ago I had heard the following verse which says: From the 'brAhmaNa-s' of 'this' country all the other people from the world over learn/ed the rules of conduct. Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia:
In every nation, religion, we can find, if we penetrate into it and study, distinctions based on one or the other factors like birth, avocation (vRtti), etc. The terrorist from Pakistan held in India now, 'Kasab' is someone belonging to a low class/caste (in Islam/Pakistan) who are engaged in meat selling, etc. The President of United States would not dine with the persons engaged in lowly jobs of that country. A 'Nadar' Christian would not intermarry with 'Reddy' or 'scheduled caste' Christian. Ireland faces age long struggle between the Protestant and Catholics. Shias and Sunnis have been at 'war' almost in every country where Muslims are there. Basavanna revolted against the 'caste system' in the Vedic Hindu religion and started a new order of 'Vira shaivas'. But this order has in itself a multi class-caste distinction. There are 'ayyanavaru' class who perform puja, rituals, etc. in Lingayat families. There are panchAchAryas, pancha sAlis, and some other specific class/caste. There will be no intermarriage, etc. among/across these classes.
The earlier Sringeri Acharya, once made an official announcement that people should not make distinctions in public like while drawing water from a public pond/well. One can practice his vishesha dharma inside his house.
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 6:25 AM, SriKanth! <srikkant...@gmail.com> wrote: > vidvadbhya: saadaram pranamya,
> While we should accept and address the current way of caste system, it > is not entirely to blame our Shastras or Hindu dharma per se. Consider > this,
> 1. Purusha Sukta with its universal view, when it comes to talk about > society brings some analogies such as the scholars being the face of > the society, workers being the force that moves the society etc. Even > today we Engineers proudly say "Engineers run the world", likewise > Purusha sukta saying Shudras forming the fundamental base of Society > by which the society moves on. Scholars here know the meaning of the > word Shudra which is not opposing what I am saying.
> 2. Casteism is not unique to Hinduism. Wherever in the world human > popuplation is there, groupism is unavoidable. Each group thinks they > are better from others, its only group psychology. Islam, > Christianity, Buddhism all have their own intrinsic variety of caste. > Even after converting to Christian or Islam we can see people retain > their caste (such as Christian Brahmin or Christian Nadar etc) - such > is the power of group mentality.
> 3. Untouchability may have been due to plague kind of diseases > spreading in the past. Similarly feudal wars between Kings, resulted > in communities becoming "upper caste" (winners) or "lower > caste" (losers)... Some of the castes which are considered Shudra in > one place are not so in other places of India. Caste is not eternally > setup and up or down movement in Varna was very much there. Ambedkar > has written a lot about this.
> 4. I wish to bring, most of Vedic Rishis, great souls were not > Brahmins. Manu himself is a Kshatriya (pl correct if I am wrong) and > not a brahmin.
> 5. Another accusation I hear is, Hindus destroyed Buddhism/Jainism > from the land (Bharat) where they born. This is not true, Hinduism was > never an organized entity and never tried to wipe out Buddhists. It > was Islamic invasions that reduced Buddhists/Jains from this land.
> The fact is there is a widespread perception that Caste System(with that
> Untouchabilty) is invitable in Hinduism.
Just like the above statement. Such an issue can be invitable by those
who want it to criticize it, while it is inevitable that it is maintained
there in the scriptures themselves. Each can make it yield to his
advantage.
So far they are society is followed complimentary to each other sections,
caste system may prove to be advantageous. On the other hand, it can be
used to take advantage by some sections or leaders of the community,
depending on the leadership adversely.
Is it necessary to indulge in such complicated social issues in this forum
meant for discussion of anything related with vidvat on different branches
of knowledge and share and increase our knowledge?
Members may react accordingly.
This is a humble suggestion.
-- *Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
**Research Scholar,
*
Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry
16 & 19, Rue Dumas
Pondichéry - 605 001
<v.subrahman...@gmail.com> wrote: > Pl. consider this:
> Long ago I had heard the following verse which says: From the 'brAhmaNa-s' > of 'this' country all the other people from the world over learn/ed the > rules of conduct. Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia:
I am not familiar with this verse, but the *concept* that the masses follow the lead of the distinguished is quite standard, cf. प्रधानानुयायिनो जनव्यवहारा भवन्ति (cited by Madhusudana Saraswati under Bhagavad Gita III-21, यद्यदाचरति श्रेष्ठस्तत्तदेवेतरो जनः). The claim मम वर्त्मानुवर्तन्ते मनुष्याः पार्थ सर्वशः (BG III-23) is taken quite literally by all traditional commentators.
Dear Dr. Subodh Kumar ji and other scholar-friends,
I am happy that good lot of pertinent response is being generated and I
especially than Sri Subrhamaniyan's observations. We need not be unduly
apologetic.Great people like Gandhi ji. D. V. Gundappa, Ananda Kumara Swamy
and many more of our times too have spoken about the positive aspects of
varNa system and its due acceptance in the early times. In-spite of this,
unless we declare that varNa is an intrinsic quality of every person based
on the triguNa-s and not on birth alone and it has a greater meaning if
taken as one's in choice, as happened in the earliest vedic period and
also in these days, we cannot strike the cord of harmony and honesty. Here
I can just request the scholars to go to works like BRhadaaraNyaka
up.,(I-4-14), Mhaabhaarata vanaparvan ; ajagaropaakhyaana and the modern
works like mahaasaamraajyanibandhanam, a sutra work of KaavyakaNTha
vaasshThaganapatimuni, caaturvarNya-bhaaratasameekShaa by
mahaamaNdalEshwara mahEshvaraanandagiri, varNavyavasthaa kaa vaidikarUp by
laalaa jnaanacand aarya and My VarNaashramadharma by M.K. Gandhi (editor
A.N.Hingorani)
for better insights and information in this regard. I also like to bring to
attention a recent Sanskrit work kauNDinyasmRti of MahaamahOpaadhyaaya P.
Ramacahndrudu which has an English translation also penned by the same
author. I would humbly wish to suggest my own work, Saamaanyadharma in
Kannda too here as a writing of similar concern.
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Hnbhat B.R. <hnbha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The fact is there is a widespread perception that Caste System(with that
>> Untouchabilty) is invitable in Hinduism.
> Just like the above statement. Such an issue can be invitable by those
> who want it to criticize it, while it is inevitable that it is maintained
> there in the scriptures themselves. Each can make it yield to his
> advantage.
> So far they are society is followed complimentary to each other sections,
> caste system may prove to be advantageous. On the other hand, it can be
> used to take advantage by some sections or leaders of the community,
> depending on the leadership adversely.
> Is it necessary to indulge in such complicated social issues in this forum
> meant for discussion of anything related with vidvat on different branches
> of knowledge and share and increase our knowledge?
> Members may react accordingly.
> This is a humble suggestion.
> --
> *Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
> **Research Scholar,
> *
> Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry
> 16 & 19, Rue Dumas
> Pondichéry - 605 001
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Very well said indeed. I was myself going to show the example of samraajya-nibandhanam of Ganapati Muni.
You have very succintly and clearly put forward the nature of task at hand. Need to clear the confusion and shine a new light.
regards
Shrikant Jamadagni
Bangalore
--- On Wed, 11/7/12, Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Untouchability - Satyameva Jayate Latest Episode
To: hnbha...@gmail.com
Cc: karr...@gmail.com, bvparishat@googlegroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 11 July, 2012, 10:52 AM
Dear Dr. Subodh Kumar ji and other scholar-friends,
I am happy that good lot of pertinent response is being generated and I especially than Sri Subrhamaniyan's observations. We need not be unduly apologetic.Great people like Gandhi ji. D. V. Gundappa, Ananda Kumara Swamy and many more of our times too have spoken about the positive aspects of varNa system and its due acceptance in the early times. In-spite of this, unless we declare that varNa is an intrinsic quality of every person based on the triguNa-s and not on birth alone and it has a greater meaning if taken as one's in choice, as happened in the earliest vedic period and also in these days, we cannot strike the cord of harmony and honesty. Here I can just request the scholars to go to works like BRhadaaraNyaka up.,(I-4-14), Mhaabhaarata vanaparvan ; ajagaropaakhyaana and the modern works like mahaasaamraajyanibandhanam, a sutra work of KaavyakaNTha vaasshThaganapatimuni, caaturvarNya-bhaaratasameekShaa by mahaamaNdalEshwara
mahEshvaraanandagiri, varNavyavasthaa kaa vaidikarUp by laalaa jnaanacand aarya and My VarNaashramadharma by M.K. Gandhi (editor A.N.Hingorani)
for better insights and information in this regard. I also like to bring to attention a recent Sanskrit work kauNDinyasmRti of MahaamahOpaadhyaaya P. Ramacahndrudu which has an English translation also penned by the same author. I would humbly wish to suggest my own work, Saamaanyadharma in Kannda too here as a writing of similar concern.
regards
ganesh
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Hnbhat B.R. <hnbha...@gmail.com> wrote:
The fact is there is a widespread perception that Caste System(with that Untouchabilty) is invitable in Hinduism.
Just like the above statement. Such an issue can be invitable by those who want it to criticize it, while it is inevitable that it is maintained there in the scriptures themselves. Each can make it yield to his advantage.
So far they are society is followed complimentary to each other sections, caste system may prove to be advantageous. On the other hand, it can be used to take advantage by some sections or leaders of the community, depending on the leadership adversely.
Is it necessary to indulge in such complicated social issues in this forum meant for discussion of anything related with vidvat on different branches of knowledge and share and increase our knowledge?
Members may react accordingly.
This is a humble suggestion.
--
Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar,
Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry 16 & 19, Rue Dumas Pondichéry - 605 001
Thaks for all the inputs, I will try how I can take this forward for a
response. Satyameva Jayates is a very popular TV show in India and has
already done enuf damage. But I point is what i wanted to know was where is
it stated that "shudras are supposed to wear clothes that smell" as claimed
by the professor.
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Shrikant Jamadagni <shrikan...@yahoo.co.in
> Dear Dr. Subodh Kumar ji and other scholar-friends,
> I am happy that good lot of pertinent response is being generated and I
> especially than Sri Subrhamaniyan's observations. We need not be unduly
> apologetic.Great people like Gandhi ji. D. V. Gundappa, Ananda Kumara Swamy
> and many more of our times too have spoken about the positive aspects of
> varNa system and its due acceptance in the early times. In-spite of this,
> unless we declare that varNa is an intrinsic quality of every person based
> on the triguNa-s and not on birth alone and it has a greater meaning if
> taken as one's in choice, as happened in the earliest vedic period and
> also in these days, we cannot strike the cord of harmony and honesty. Here
> I can just request the scholars to go to works like BRhadaaraNyaka
> up.,(I-4-14), Mhaabhaarata vanaparvan ; ajagaropaakhyaana and the modern
> works like mahaasaamraajyanibandhanam, a sutra work of KaavyakaNTha
> vaasshThaganapatimuni, caaturvarNya-bhaaratasameekShaa by
> mahaamaNdalEshwara mahEshvaraanandagiri, varNavyavasthaa kaa vaidikarUp by
> laalaa jnaanacand aarya and My VarNaashramadharma by M.K. Gandhi (editor
> A.N.Hingorani)
> for better insights and information in this regard. I also like to bring
> to attention a recent Sanskrit work kauNDinyasmRti of MahaamahOpaadhyaaya
> P. Ramacahndrudu which has an English translation also penned by the same
> author. I would humbly wish to suggest my own work, Saamaanyadharma in
> Kannda too here as a writing of similar concern.
> regards
> ganesh
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Hnbhat B.R. <hnbha...@gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=hnbha...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> The fact is there is a widespread perception that Caste System(with
> that Untouchabilty) is invitable in Hinduism.
> Just like the above statement. Such an issue can be invitable by those
> who want it to criticize it, while it is inevitable that it is maintained
> there in the scriptures themselves. Each can make it yield to his
> advantage.
> So far they are society is followed complimentary to each other sections,
> caste system may prove to be advantageous. On the other hand, it can be
> used to take advantage by some sections or leaders of the community,
> depending on the leadership adversely.
> Is it necessary to indulge in such complicated social issues in this forum
> meant for discussion of anything related with vidvat on different branches
> of knowledge and share and increase our knowledge?
> Members may react accordingly.
> This is a humble suggestion.
> --
> *Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
> **Research Scholar,
> *
> Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry
> 16 & 19, Rue Dumas
> Pondichéry - 605 001
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Reeta Bhattacharya
<reetabha...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Dont you think that sudras were neglected in our society when Brahmanas
> ruled.
I'll like to know the meaning of neglection.
> Even today upper cast people cant accept lower cast for their son or
> daughter's marriage.
So, marrying to lower caste is acceptance !!??
You can't make rules to force one to marry to lower caste. Let people
choose. Don't try to take away freedom of individuals and hindu groups.
> We so called literate people do injustice to not only backward class but
> also lower casts.
If you do, then leave it. Why are you doing this ?
> I can give you many sources or examples from our Purana literature.
I will like to hear.
I just want to say that differentiation of people according to caste or
birth has it's root in veda-s and so it is anAdi. Those who have faith in
veda-s follow it. If you don't have, don't follow. Declare it and be free.
I think same was said by dharmAdhikArI in the show.
But, I'm of view that just this differentiation doesn't cause any harm.
This differentiation doesn't say that you must abuse shUdra-s.
What brAhmaNa-s or others did going out of range of veda-s and smR^iti-s
doesn't make scriptures culprit. That act was due to their ego, etc. So,
don't blame division, i.e. chAturvarNyam.
For now, very few people know about or follow veda-s and other scriptures.
Even then not all are equal. Are they ? Someone is sweeping road, some one
is engaged in business, someone is at border to protect and someone is busy
in teaching. These differences don't go. And your discriminative behavior
too stays with it. I've seen many families that say that they treat all
equally, their son and son of sweeper. But, I've not seen it confirmed by
their behavior. So, before trying to eliminate the partition, which is not
the actual cause of abuse, try to educate yourself to respect others.
Killing mosquito for death caused by serpent is not wise.
Again, before abusing differentiation based on scriptures, you must check
that what will happen when this will disappear ? And is it really causing
abuses ?
Even countries where their is no caste, they find a way to differentiate
each other on the basis of skin, etc. which is again based on birth and
then they fight.
Again, differences are fact. For example, those who convert to Islam are
not considered equal to others. Why ? Because, the differentiating factor,
i.e. conversion, is a fact. It's not an imagination. So, if you have to
stay within a system, either hindu or others, you must accept the
difference. As soon as you shun the wish and signs of the system, you are
free of that partition. So, people must leave religion rather than
expecting partition to evaporate.
So, basically the problem is in accepting religion and not accepting.
Moreover, if you leave religion, are you going to force government to make
a law to eradicate religion ? That will be unfair. If you don't want to
follow partition and religion, do according to your wish. But, leave those
who have faith in it. This is the freedom which is given by constitution.
People bring ekalavya, etc. to show abuse. That's also wrong. Compare it to
today's situation. What if I go to a nuclear-lab and steal the formula.
People will shoot me at the sight.
Same was the case of ekalavya. He was doing the same with dhanur-vidyA.
If you don't see any comparison between both ? Then it's your problem.
dhanurvidyA is equally dangerous, in my thinking , if it goes to wrong
hands.
In no way we support abuse. But, first of all let us establish that which
act is an abuse and what is it's real cause.
I bow down in reverence to the response of svAmI lalitAlAlitaH.
People everywhere seem to have the impression that once the Hindu
Shastras fail to be "imposed" (it was never imposed and is not being
imposed these days either), this world will become paradise. Let us ask
ourselves simple questions:
1. There is discrimination of the worst sort everywhere in the form of
monetary discrimination. A person with a money bag will get a medical seat,
PG medical seat etc. He can bribe his way out of any heinous crime, etc.
etc. etc. Instead of fighting this, the target is Hindu shAstras which have
for long been neglected and who aren't being practiced anymore.
2. The discrimination due to status is another form of discrimination
being practiced in India right now. An MP or an MLA lives a life which is
as (if not more) decadent as any king of the past. It is this
discrimination which needs to be our focus, rather than the discrimination
against which laws have been enacted. Moreover, the "discrimination"
earlier was not in the sugar-coated pill of "equality" (everyone is equal
in law, but some are more equal than others!!!).
3. There are laws against untouchability and even laws against calling
people "caste names", still people like Amir Khan want to talk about
untouchability. Amazing. This is simply brazenness. Anyone who wants to
talk against Hindu Shastra automatically gets the aura of Intellectualism.
Is this a failure of law that even with reverse discriminative laws they
haven't been able to uproot the "evil"? In case so, let us talk about
implementation of the laws.
4. The word "untouchability" is designed to put every hindu on the back
foot, make him guilty of all real and imagined crimes that his forefathers
have committed in the past. It is conveniently forgotten that the members
of "higher" castes used to provide for education of "lower" castes, let out
their premises for the marriages of "lower" caste members etc.
5. Suddenly, there is an urge to declare that the "varNa" system that
was prescribed was not based on birth, but on the "guNa"s. So, if there be
a new "varNa" system as exhorted by Shri Ganesh etc., will untouchability
be accepted? This goes to show that the varNa vyavasthA as was practiced is
never the problem (in case this not be the deduction, then the exhortation
will go in vain).
6. Why is it that the facts of Shudra Kings like Proleya Vema Reddy
inscribing that he is taking up arms to protect the "brahmins and cows" of
Andhra conveniently forgotten? If the shudras were so oppressed by
brahmins, why would they have taken up arms against Islam at all? Same goes
for shudra warriors in the north.
7. Why is it that Amir Khan wants to raise up a bogeyman of
untouchability against which laws have been enforced than talk of evils
against which laws haven't been implemented (burqa system, genital
mutilation of children, etc.).
8. A great man once hath said, "For the white man, his equality begins
with food and ends with sleep" (i.e. sleeping with the "equal" partner).
9. How is it that the "oppressed" shudras used to control a large part
of the economy of India even till the 1750s (Economic History of India by
R. C. Dutt).
10. The Hindus who take in these arguments find an immediate urge to
"reform" sanAtana dharma as is being practiced, although it has undergone
thousands of reformation initiatives. Any more "reformation" and there will
be nothing to give or take between "us" and "them" (people of other
religions).
11. If there is abuse in the name of religion, it should be condemned in
the strongest possible terms and where necessary, legal action should be
taken. But let us stop this distorted discourse of making shAstra or
sanAtana dharma the culprit for every ill of the society. Stop flogging a
dead horse.
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Reeta Bhattacharya <
> reetabha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dont you think that sudras were neglected in our society when Brahmanas
>> ruled.
> I'll like to know the meaning of neglection.
>> Even today upper cast people cant accept lower cast for their son or
>> daughter's marriage.
> So, marrying to lower caste is acceptance !!??
> You can't make rules to force one to marry to lower caste. Let people
> choose. Don't try to take away freedom of individuals and hindu groups.
>> We so called literate people do injustice to not only backward class but
>> also lower casts.
> If you do, then leave it. Why are you doing this ?
>> I can give you many sources or examples from our Purana literature.
> I will like to hear.
> I just want to say that differentiation of people according to caste or
> birth has it's root in veda-s and so it is anAdi. Those who have faith in
> veda-s follow it. If you don't have, don't follow. Declare it and be free.
> I think same was said by dharmAdhikArI in the show.
> But, I'm of view that just this differentiation doesn't cause any harm.
> This differentiation doesn't say that you must abuse shUdra-s.
> What brAhmaNa-s or others did going out of range of veda-s and smR^iti-s
> doesn't make scriptures culprit. That act was due to their ego, etc. So,
> don't blame division, i.e. chAturvarNyam.
> For now, very few people know about or follow veda-s and other scriptures.
> Even then not all are equal. Are they ? Someone is sweeping road, some one
> is engaged in business, someone is at border to protect and someone is busy
> in teaching. These differences don't go. And your discriminative behavior
> too stays with it. I've seen many families that say that they treat all
> equally, their son and son of sweeper. But, I've not seen it confirmed by
> their behavior. So, before trying to eliminate the partition, which is not
> the actual cause of abuse, try to educate yourself to respect others.
> Killing mosquito for death caused by serpent is not wise.
> Again, before abusing differentiation based on scriptures, you must check
> that what will happen when this will disappear ? And is it really causing
> abuses ?
> Even countries where their is no caste, they find a way to differentiate
> each other on the basis of skin, etc. which is again based on birth and
> then they fight.
> Again, differences are fact. For example, those who convert to Islam are
> not considered equal to others. Why ? Because, the differentiating factor,
> i.e. conversion, is a fact. It's not an imagination. So, if you have to
> stay within a system, either hindu or others, you must accept the
> difference. As soon as you shun the wish and signs of the system, you are
> free of that partition. So, people must leave religion rather than
> expecting partition to evaporate.
> So, basically the problem is in accepting religion and not accepting.
> Moreover, if you leave religion, are you going to force government to make
> a law to eradicate religion ? That will be unfair. If you don't want to
> follow partition and religion, do according to your wish. But, leave those
> who have faith in it. This is the freedom which is given by constitution.
> People bring ekalavya, etc. to show abuse. That's also wrong. Compare it
> to today's situation. What if I go to a nuclear-lab and steal the formula.
> People will shoot me at the sight.
> Same was the case of ekalavya. He was doing the same with dhanur-vidyA.
> If you don't see any comparison between both ? Then it's your problem.
> dhanurvidyA is equally dangerous, in my thinking , if it goes to wrong
> hands.
> In no way we support abuse. But, first of all let us establish that which
> act is an abuse and what is it's real cause.
> More later..........
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Hariom,
I advise the august members of this group to read "Being Different',
"Breaking India", by Rajiv Malhotra. This issue has been dealt very nicely
by him.
Such issues are raised to make Hindus feel guilty and lose faith in their
own scriptures and religion. Then they are soft targets for conversion to
Christianity or Islam.
There are discrimination in every society. In USA, which is propagated as
the land of freedom, there are seperate churches for blacks and whites.
Communism failed because it was against difference among various class of
people.
Difference is unavoidable. that is sanaatana dharma. But there should be no
exploitaion. In our own body head is different from handas,belly, and
feet. But they work in cooperation. If my foot is heart my head will
direct my hand to help it.
The real problem is lack of spiritual education and lack of good character.
as long as avidya exists the strong will exploit the weak.
There is a joke, in capitalism man exploits man, in communism it is other
way around.
S. N. Dasa
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 5:20 PM, Shrivathsa B
<shrivathsa.bra...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I bow down in reverence to the response of svAmI lalitAlAlitaH.
> People everywhere seem to have the impression that once the Hindu
> Shastras fail to be "imposed" (it was never imposed and is not being
> imposed these days either), this world will become paradise. Let us ask
> ourselves simple questions:
> 1. There is discrimination of the worst sort everywhere in the form of
> monetary discrimination. A person with a money bag will get a medical seat,
> PG medical seat etc. He can bribe his way out of any heinous crime, etc.
> etc. etc. Instead of fighting this, the target is Hindu shAstras which have
> for long been neglected and who aren't being practiced anymore.
> 2. The discrimination due to status is another form of discrimination
> being practiced in India right now. An MP or an MLA lives a life which is
> as (if not more) decadent as any king of the past. It is this
> discrimination which needs to be our focus, rather than the discrimination
> against which laws have been enacted. Moreover, the "discrimination"
> earlier was not in the sugar-coated pill of "equality" (everyone is equal
> in law, but some are more equal than others!!!).
> 3. There are laws against untouchability and even laws against calling
> people "caste names", still people like Amir Khan want to talk about
> untouchability. Amazing. This is simply brazenness. Anyone who wants to
> talk against Hindu Shastra automatically gets the aura of Intellectualism.
> Is this a failure of law that even with reverse discriminative laws they
> haven't been able to uproot the "evil"? In case so, let us talk about
> implementation of the laws.
> 4. The word "untouchability" is designed to put every hindu on the
> back foot, make him guilty of all real and imagined crimes that his
> forefathers have committed in the past. It is conveniently forgotten that
> the members of "higher" castes used to provide for education of "lower"
> castes, let out their premises for the marriages of "lower" caste members
> etc.
> 5. Suddenly, there is an urge to declare that the "varNa" system that
> was prescribed was not based on birth, but on the "guNa"s. So, if there be
> a new "varNa" system as exhorted by Shri Ganesh etc., will untouchability
> be accepted? This goes to show that the varNa vyavasthA as was practiced is
> never the problem (in case this not be the deduction, then the exhortation
> will go in vain).
> 6. Why is it that the facts of Shudra Kings like Proleya Vema Reddy
> inscribing that he is taking up arms to protect the "brahmins and cows" of
> Andhra conveniently forgotten? If the shudras were so oppressed by
> brahmins, why would they have taken up arms against Islam at all? Same goes
> for shudra warriors in the north.
> 7. Why is it that Amir Khan wants to raise up a bogeyman of
> untouchability against which laws have been enforced than talk of evils
> against which laws haven't been implemented (burqa system, genital
> mutilation of children, etc.).
> 8. A great man once hath said, "For the white man, his equality begins
> with food and ends with sleep" (i.e. sleeping with the "equal" partner).
> 9. How is it that the "oppressed" shudras used to control a large part
> of the economy of India even till the 1750s (Economic History of India by
> R. C. Dutt).
> 10. The Hindus who take in these arguments find an immediate urge to
> "reform" sanAtana dharma as is being practiced, although it has undergone
> thousands of reformation initiatives. Any more "reformation" and there will
> be nothing to give or take between "us" and "them" (people of other
> religions).
> 11. If there is abuse in the name of religion, it should be condemned
> in the strongest possible terms and where necessary, legal action should be
> taken. But let us stop this distorted discourse of making shAstra or
> sanAtana dharma the culprit for every ill of the society. Stop flogging a
> dead horse.
>> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Reeta Bhattacharya <
>> reetabha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Dont you think that sudras were neglected in our society when Brahmanas
>>> ruled.
>> I'll like to know the meaning of neglection.
>>> Even today upper cast people cant accept lower cast for their son or
>>> daughter's marriage.
>> So, marrying to lower caste is acceptance !!??
>> You can't make rules to force one to marry to lower caste. Let people
>> choose. Don't try to take away freedom of individuals and hindu groups.
>>> We so called literate people do injustice to not only backward class but
>>> also lower casts.
>> If you do, then leave it. Why are you doing this ?
>>> I can give you many sources or examples from our Purana literature.
>> I will like to hear.
>> I just want to say that differentiation of people according to caste or
>> birth has it's root in veda-s and so it is anAdi. Those who have faith in
>> veda-s follow it. If you don't have, don't follow. Declare it and be free.
>> I think same was said by dharmAdhikArI in the show.
>> But, I'm of view that just this differentiation doesn't cause any harm.
>> This differentiation doesn't say that you must abuse shUdra-s.
>> What brAhmaNa-s or others did going out of range of veda-s and smR^iti-s
>> doesn't make scriptures culprit. That act was due to their ego, etc. So,
>> don't blame division, i.e. chAturvarNyam.
>> For now, very few people know about or follow veda-s and other
>> scriptures. Even then not all are equal. Are they ? Someone is sweeping
>> road, some one is engaged in business, someone is at border to protect and
>> someone is busy in teaching. These differences don't go. And your
>> discriminative behavior too stays with it. I've seen many families that say
>> that they treat all equally, their son and son of sweeper. But, I've not
>> seen it confirmed by their behavior. So, before trying to eliminate the
>> partition, which is not the actual cause of abuse, try to educate yourself
>> to respect others. Killing mosquito for death caused by serpent is not wise.
>> Again, before abusing differentiation based on scriptures, you must check
>> that what will happen when this will disappear ? And is it really causing
>> abuses ?
>> Even countries where their is no caste, they find a way to differentiate
>> each other on the basis of skin, etc. which is again based on birth and
>> then they fight.
>> Again, differences are fact. For example, those who convert to Islam are
>> not considered equal to others. Why ? Because, the differentiating factor,
>> i.e. conversion, is a fact. It's not an imagination. So, if you have to
>> stay within a system, either hindu or others, you must accept the
>> difference. As soon as you shun the wish and signs of the system, you are
>> free of that partition. So, people must leave religion rather than
>> expecting partition to evaporate.
>> So, basically the problem is in accepting religion and not accepting.
>> Moreover, if you leave religion, are you going to force government to
>> make a law to eradicate religion ? That will be unfair. If you don't want
>> to follow partition and religion, do according to your wish. But, leave
>> those who have faith in it. This is the freedom which is given by
>> constitution.
>> People bring ekalavya, etc. to show abuse. That's also wrong. Compare it
>> to today's situation. What if I go to a nuclear-lab and steal the formula.
>> People will shoot me at the sight.
>> Same was the case of ekalavya. He was doing the same with dhanur-vidyA.
>> If you don't see any comparison between both ? Then it's your problem.
>> dhanurvidyA is equally dangerous, in my thinking , if it goes to wrong
>> hands.
>> In no way we support abuse. But, first of all let us establish that which
>> act is an abuse and what is it's real cause.
>> More later..........
>> --
>> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
>> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
dear all,
I dont think we need answer this fool's (amir's) show. he is making it for
only money. himself married twice and who knows what happens in future. it
is bible in devil's mouth. he should do a show on bigamy also.
but who was the lady sanskrit professor and we should ask her to
substantiate her claims or should reclaim her statements.
these showmakers always have a trick that works well. they will invite a
poorest person to debate and win it. it is the same for Dr. Zakir Naik who
is the leader of anti hindu TV shows. he even defeats shri ravishankar in a
live debate. recently Prof. Hafiz Mohammed Ziauddin Alias Shamsi Tehrani who
was given presidents award for Farsi this year, told me that Zakir Naik
knows nothing. we should use scholars scholars like Tehrani to counter
fools like Zakir Naik.
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 6:14 PM, dr. Satyanarayana Das <d...@jiva.org>wrote:
> Hariom,
> I advise the august members of this group to read "Being Different',
> "Breaking India", by Rajiv Malhotra. This issue has been dealt very nicely
> by him.
> Such issues are raised to make Hindus feel guilty and lose faith in their
> own scriptures and religion. Then they are soft targets for conversion to
> Christianity or Islam.
> There are discrimination in every society. In USA, which is propagated as
> the land of freedom, there are seperate churches for blacks and whites.
> Communism failed because it was against difference among various class of
> people.
> Difference is unavoidable. that is sanaatana dharma. But there should be
> no exploitaion. In our own body head is different from handas,belly, and
> feet. But they work in cooperation. If my foot is heart my head will
> direct my hand to help it.
> The real problem is lack of spiritual education and lack of good
> character. as long as avidya exists the strong will exploit the weak.
> There is a joke, in capitalism man exploits man, in communism it is other
> way around.
> S. N. Dasa
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 5:20 PM, Shrivathsa B <shrivathsa.bra...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>> hariH OM,
>> I bow down in reverence to the response of svAmI lalitAlAlitaH.
>> People everywhere seem to have the impression that once the Hindu
>> Shastras fail to be "imposed" (it was never imposed and is not being
>> imposed these days either), this world will become paradise. Let us ask
>> ourselves simple questions:
>> 1. There is discrimination of the worst sort everywhere in the form
>> of monetary discrimination. A person with a money bag will get a medical
>> seat, PG medical seat etc. He can bribe his way out of any heinous crime,
>> etc. etc. etc. Instead of fighting this, the target is Hindu shAstras which
>> have for long been neglected and who aren't being practiced anymore.
>> 2. The discrimination due to status is another form of discrimination
>> being practiced in India right now. An MP or an MLA lives a life which is
>> as (if not more) decadent as any king of the past. It is this
>> discrimination which needs to be our focus, rather than the discrimination
>> against which laws have been enacted. Moreover, the "discrimination"
>> earlier was not in the sugar-coated pill of "equality" (everyone is equal
>> in law, but some are more equal than others!!!).
>> 3. There are laws against untouchability and even laws against
>> calling people "caste names", still people like Amir Khan want to talk
>> about untouchability. Amazing. This is simply brazenness. Anyone who wants
>> to talk against Hindu Shastra automatically gets the aura of
>> Intellectualism. Is this a failure of law that even with reverse
>> discriminative laws they haven't been able to uproot the "evil"? In case
>> so, let us talk about implementation of the laws.
>> 4. The word "untouchability" is designed to put every hindu on the
>> back foot, make him guilty of all real and imagined crimes that his
>> forefathers have committed in the past. It is conveniently forgotten that
>> the members of "higher" castes used to provide for education of "lower"
>> castes, let out their premises for the marriages of "lower" caste members
>> etc.
>> 5. Suddenly, there is an urge to declare that the "varNa" system that
>> was prescribed was not based on birth, but on the "guNa"s. So, if there be
>> a new "varNa" system as exhorted by Shri Ganesh etc., will untouchability
>> be accepted? This goes to show that the varNa vyavasthA as was practiced is
>> never the problem (in case this not be the deduction, then the exhortation
>> will go in vain).
>> 6. Why is it that the facts of Shudra Kings like Proleya Vema Reddy
>> inscribing that he is taking up arms to protect the "brahmins and cows" of
>> Andhra conveniently forgotten? If the shudras were so oppressed by
>> brahmins, why would they have taken up arms against Islam at all? Same goes
>> for shudra warriors in the north.
>> 7. Why is it that Amir Khan wants to raise up a bogeyman of
>> untouchability against which laws have been enforced than talk of evils
>> against which laws haven't been implemented (burqa system, genital
>> mutilation of children, etc.).
>> 8. A great man once hath said, "For the white man, his equality
>> begins with food and ends with sleep" (i.e. sleeping with the "equal"
>> partner).
>> 9. How is it that the "oppressed" shudras used to control a large
>> part of the economy of India even till the 1750s (Economic History of India
>> by R. C. Dutt).
>> 10. The Hindus who take in these arguments find an immediate urge to
>> "reform" sanAtana dharma as is being practiced, although it has undergone
>> thousands of reformation initiatives. Any more "reformation" and there will
>> be nothing to give or take between "us" and "them" (people of other
>> religions).
>> 11. If there is abuse in the name of religion, it should be condemned
>> in the strongest possible terms and where necessary, legal action should be
>> taken. But let us stop this distorted discourse of making shAstra or
>> sanAtana dharma the culprit for every ill of the society. Stop flogging a
>> dead horse.
>>> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Reeta Bhattacharya <
>>> reetabha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Dont you think that sudras were neglected in our society when Brahmanas
>>>> ruled.
>>> I'll like to know the meaning of neglection.
>>>> Even today upper cast people cant accept lower cast for their son or
>>>> daughter's marriage.
>>> So, marrying to lower caste is acceptance !!??
>>> You can't make rules to force one to marry to lower caste. Let people
>>> choose. Don't try to take away freedom of individuals and hindu groups.
>>>> We so called literate people do injustice to not only backward class
>>>> but also lower casts.
>>> If you do, then leave it. Why are you doing this ?
>>>> I can give you many sources or examples from our Purana literature.
>>> I will like to hear.
>>> I just want to say that differentiation of people according to caste or
>>> birth has it's root in veda-s and so it is anAdi. Those who have faith in
>>> veda-s follow it. If you don't have, don't follow. Declare it and be free.
>>> I think same was said by dharmAdhikArI in the show.
>>> But, I'm of view that just this differentiation doesn't cause any harm.
>>> This differentiation doesn't say that you must abuse shUdra-s.
>>> What brAhmaNa-s or others did going out of range of veda-s and smR^iti-s
>>> doesn't make scriptures culprit. That act was due to their ego, etc. So,
>>> don't blame division, i.e. chAturvarNyam.
>>> For now, very few people know about or follow veda-s and other
>>> scriptures. Even then not all are equal. Are they ? Someone is sweeping
>>> road, some one is engaged in business, someone is at border to protect and
>>> someone is busy in teaching. These differences don't go. And your
>>> discriminative behavior too stays with it. I've seen many families that say
>>> that they treat all equally, their son and son of sweeper. But, I've not
>>> seen it confirmed by their behavior. So, before trying to eliminate the
>>> partition, which is not the actual cause of abuse, try to educate yourself
>>> to respect others. Killing mosquito for death caused by serpent is not wise.
>>> Again, before abusing differentiation based on scriptures, you must
>>> check that what will happen when this will disappear ? And is it really
>>> causing abuses ?
>>> Even countries where their is no caste, they find a way to
>>> differentiate each other on the basis of skin, etc. which is again based on
>>> birth and then they fight.
>>> Again, differences are fact. For example, those who convert to Islam are
>>> not considered equal to others. Why ? Because, the differentiating factor,
>>> i.e. conversion, is a fact. It's not an imagination. So, if you have to
>>> stay within a system, either hindu or others, you must accept the
>>> difference. As soon as you shun the wish and signs of the system, you are
>>> free of that partition. So, people must leave religion rather than
>>> expecting partition to evaporate.
>>> So, basically the problem is in accepting religion and not accepting.
>>> Moreover, if you leave religion, are you going to force government to
>>> make a law to eradicate religion ? That will
Respected scholars svAmI lalitAlAlitaH and shrivathsa
I agree with a lot of your responses but our thoughts regarding a new declaration with regards to caatur-varnya is against one and only one issue as follows :- Does a family of x-caste have to follow the same occupation and be known as belonging to x-caste till eternity? Our answer is "No". I hope you are in agreement with me.
I think there will always be four varnas in all cultures as taught by shruti. The question is whether the caste should be determined by birth or by choice. Actually this question is already answered as a matter of everyday-fact by the Hindu community at large.
regards
Shrikant Jamadagni
Bangalore
--- On Wed, 11/7/12, dr. Satyanarayana Das <d...@jiva.org> wrote:
From: dr. Satyanarayana Das <d...@jiva.org>
Subject: Re: Fwd: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Untouchability - Satyameva Jayate Latest Episode
To: shrivathsa.bra...@gmail.com
Cc: "BHARATIYA VIDVAT" <bvparishat@googlegroups.com>, lalitaalaali...@lalitaalaalitah.com
Date: Wednesday, 11 July, 2012, 6:14 PM
Hariom,I advise the august members of this group to read "Being Different', "Breaking India", by Rajiv Malhotra. This issue has been dealt very nicely by him.Such issues are raised to make Hindus feel guilty and lose faith in their own scriptures and religion. Then they are soft targets for conversion to Christianity or Islam. There are discrimination in every society. In USA, which is propagated as the land of freedom, there are seperate churches for blacks and whites. Communism failed because it was against difference among various class of people. Difference is unavoidable. that is sanaatana dharma. But there should be no exploitaion. In our own body head is different from handas,belly, and feet. But they work in cooperation. If my foot is heart my head will direct my hand to help it. The real problem is lack of spiritual education and lack of good character. as long as avidya exists the strong will exploit the weak.There is a joke, in capitalism man exploits man, in communism it is other way around. S. N. Dasa
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 5:20 PM, Shrivathsa B <shrivathsa.bra...@gmail.com> wrote:
hariH OM,
I bow down in reverence to the response of svAmI lalitAlAlitaH.
People everywhere seem to have the impression that once the Hindu Shastras fail to be "imposed" (it was never imposed and is not being imposed these days either), this world will become paradise. Let us ask ourselves simple questions:
There is discrimination of the worst sort everywhere in the form of monetary discrimination. A person with a money bag will get a medical seat, PG medical seat etc. He can bribe his way out of any heinous crime, etc. etc. etc. Instead of fighting this, the target is Hindu shAstras which have for long been neglected and who aren't being practiced anymore.
The discrimination due to status is another form of discrimination being practiced in India right now. An MP or an MLA lives a life which is as (if not more) decadent as any king of the past. It is this discrimination which needs to be our focus, rather than the discrimination against which laws have been enacted. Moreover, the "discrimination" earlier was not in the sugar-coated pill of "equality" (everyone is equal in law, but some are more equal than others!!!).
There are laws against untouchability and even laws against calling people "caste names", still people like Amir Khan want to talk about untouchability. Amazing. This is simply brazenness. Anyone who wants to talk against Hindu Shastra automatically gets the aura of Intellectualism. Is this a failure of law that even with reverse discriminative laws they haven't been able to uproot the "evil"? In case so, let us talk about implementation of the laws.
The word "untouchability" is designed to put every hindu on the back foot, make him guilty of all real and imagined crimes that his forefathers have committed in the past. It is conveniently forgotten that the members of "higher" castes used to provide for education of "lower" castes, let out their premises for the marriages of "lower" caste members etc.
Suddenly, there is an urge to declare that the "varNa" system that was prescribed was not based on birth, but on the "guNa"s. So, if there be a new "varNa" system as exhorted by Shri Ganesh etc., will untouchability be accepted? This goes to show that the varNa vyavasthA as was practiced is never the problem (in case this not be the deduction, then the exhortation will go in vain).
Why is it that the facts of Shudra Kings like Proleya Vema Reddy inscribing that he is taking up arms to protect the "brahmins and cows" of Andhra conveniently forgotten? If the shudras were so oppressed by brahmins, why would they have taken up arms against Islam at all? Same goes for shudra warriors in the north.
Why is it that Amir Khan wants to raise up a bogeyman of untouchability against which laws have been enforced than talk of evils against which laws haven't been implemented (burqa system, genital mutilation of children, etc.).
A great man once hath said, "For the white man, his equality begins with food and ends with sleep" (i.e. sleeping with the "equal" partner).How is it that the "oppressed" shudras used to control a large part of the economy of India even till the 1750s (Economic History of India by R. C. Dutt).
The Hindus who take in these arguments find an immediate urge to "reform" sanAtana dharma as is being practiced, although it has undergone thousands of reformation initiatives. Any more "reformation" and there will be nothing to give or take between "us" and "them" (people of other religions).
If there is abuse in the name of religion, it should be condemned in the strongest possible terms and where necessary, legal action should be taken. But let us stop this distorted discourse of making shAstra or sanAtana dharma the culprit for every ill of the society. Stop flogging a dead horse.
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Reeta Bhattacharya <reetabha...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dont you think that sudras were neglected in our society when Brahmanas ruled.
I'll like to know the meaning of neglection.
Even today upper cast people cant accept lower cast for their son or daughter's marriage.
So, marrying to lower caste is acceptance !!??You can't make rules to force one to marry to lower caste. Let people choose. Don't try to take away freedom of individuals and hindu groups.
We so called literate people do injustice to not only backward class but also lower casts.
If you do, then leave it. Why are you doing this ? I can give you many sources or examples from our Purana literature.
I will like to hear.
I just want to say that differentiation of people according to caste or birth has it's root in veda-s and so it is anAdi. Those who have faith in veda-s follow it. If you don't have, don't follow. Declare it and be free. I think same was said by dharmAdhikArI in the show.
But, I'm of view that just this differentiation doesn't cause any harm. This differentiation doesn't say that you must abuse shUdra-s.What brAhmaNa-s or others did going out of range of veda-s and smR^iti-s doesn't make scriptures culprit. That act was due to their ego, etc. So, don't blame division, i.e. chAturvarNyam.
For now, very few people know about or follow veda-s and other scriptures. Even then not all are equal. Are they ? Someone is sweeping road, some one is engaged in business, someone is at border to protect and someone is busy in teaching. These differences don't go. And your discriminative behavior too stays with it. I've seen many families that say that they treat all equally, their son and son of sweeper. But, I've not seen it confirmed by their behavior. So, before trying to eliminate the partition, which is not the actual cause of abuse, try to educate yourself to respect others. Killing mosquito for death caused by serpent is not wise.
Again, before abusing differentiation based on scriptures, you must check that what will happen when this will disappear ? And is it really causing abuses ?
Even countries where their is no caste, they find a way to differentiate each other on the basis of skin, etc. which is again based on birth and then they fight.
Again, differences are fact. For example, those who convert to Islam are not considered equal to others. Why ? Because, the differentiating factor, i.e. conversion, is a fact. It's not an imagination. So, if you have to stay within a system, either hindu or others, you must accept the difference. As soon as you shun the wish and signs of the system, you are free of that partition. So, people must leave religion rather than expecting partition to evaporate.
So, basically the problem is in accepting religion and not accepting.
Moreover, if you leave religion, are you going to force government to make a law to eradicate religion ? That will be unfair. If you don't want to follow partition and religion, do according to your wish. But, leave those who have faith in it. This is the freedom which is given by constitution.
People bring ekalavya, etc. to show abuse. That's also wrong. Compare it to today's situation. What if I go to a nuclear-lab and steal the formula. People will shoot me at the sight.
Same was the case of ekalavya. He was doing the same with dhanur-vidyA.
If you don't see any comparison between both ? Then it's your problem. dhanurvidyA is
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Shrikant Jamadagni
<shrikan...@yahoo.co.in>wrote:
> I agree with a lot of your responses but our thoughts regarding a new
> declaration with regards to caatur-varnya
Your chAturvarNya ? Who are you to decide varNa of others ? A specific
avatAra or a prophet like buddha and muhammad ?
We don't accept anything imagined by you or VHP, RSS, etc. I know that they
don't follow scriptures strictly and are in a way dangerous as other
'reformers'. Their hinduism is not same as ours. We follow scriptures and
decide everything based on that. Their definitions are pointed to make a
gathering of hindu-tagged people and nothing more. We are inclined to
collect genuine hindus who are not perturbed by SMJ, etc.
Moreover, the practice to decide varNa by birth is the original one. It is
still in practice. And inspite of 'reforms' by Arya-samAja, brahma-samAja,
etc. it is alive.
Moreover if karma decides varNa then kR^iShNa will become brAhmaNa instead
of xatriya.
And every moment varNa of a man with flickering mind will change in that
case.
is against one and only one issue as follows :- Does a family of x-caste
> have to follow the same occupation and be known as belonging to x-caste
> till eternity? Our answer is "No". I hope you are in agreement with me.
For your dissappointment, our answer is yes.
> I think there will always be four varnas in all cultures as taught by
> shruti.
Your thinking is just imagination.
Go and ask people of other countries and they will confirm.
Moreover, varNa-s are for performing yAga, etc. vaidika-karma-s. Not just
for jobs to earn money.
> The question is whether the caste should be determined by birth or by
> choice. Actually this question is already answered as a matter of
> everyday-fact by the Hindu community at large.
I don't know what type of hindus you are referring to and how it is in your
favor ?
Stick to facts and give pause to imaginations based on things read here and
there.
By the way, before imagining an alternative did you ever study scriptures
in their original ? Or, you came in world and just saw hA.. I've to save
the world and started imagining.
Enough of your enthusiasm of picking a bone with me:-). I My stand is made
even more clearer by Sri. Srikanth Jamadagni. My only contention is
difference is the very nature of this world and one has to transcend it.
In this process, the rUpa has to be changed and the svarUpa remains
unchanged. varna or jaati are only too peripheral to sanaatanadharma and
our own life styles is an example of this. If you are not for this, it
naturally shows that you are not in tune with the anubhava and hence I only
have to say svasti tubhyaM vitaNDinE!
regards
ganesh
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 9:19 PM, श्रीमल्ललितालालितः <
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Shrikant Jamadagni <
> shrikan...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>> I agree with a lot of your responses but our thoughts regarding a new
>> declaration with regards to caatur-varnya
> Your chAturvarNya ? Who are you to decide varNa of others ? A specific
> avatAra or a prophet like buddha and muhammad ?
> We don't accept anything imagined by you or VHP, RSS, etc. I know that
> they don't follow scriptures strictly and are in a way dangerous as other
> 'reformers'. Their hinduism is not same as ours. We follow scriptures and
> decide everything based on that. Their definitions are pointed to make a
> gathering of hindu-tagged people and nothing more. We are inclined to
> collect genuine hindus who are not perturbed by SMJ, etc.
> Moreover, the practice to decide varNa by birth is the original one. It is
> still in practice. And inspite of 'reforms' by Arya-samAja, brahma-samAja,
> etc. it is alive.
> Moreover if karma decides varNa then kR^iShNa will become brAhmaNa instead
> of xatriya.
> And every moment varNa of a man with flickering mind will change in that
> case.
> is against one and only one issue as follows :- Does a family of
>> x-caste have to follow the same occupation and be known as belonging to
>> x-caste till eternity? Our answer is "No". I hope you are in agreement
>> with me.
> For your dissappointment, our answer is yes.
>> I think there will always be four varnas in all cultures as taught by
>> shruti.
> Your thinking is just imagination.
> Go and ask people of other countries and they will confirm.
> Moreover, varNa-s are for performing yAga, etc. vaidika-karma-s. Not just
> for jobs to earn money.
>> The question is whether the caste should be determined by birth or by
>> choice. Actually this question is already answered as a matter of
>> everyday-fact by the Hindu community at large.
> I don't know what type of hindus you are referring to and how it is in
> your favor ?
> Stick to facts and give pause to imaginations based on things read here
> and there.
> By the way, before imagining an alternative did you ever study scriptures
> in their original ? Or, you came in world and just saw hA.. I've to save
> the world and started imagining.
> --
> निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
> to subscribe go to the link below and put a request
> https://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat/subscribe > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
Please find the responses to your mail below:
"I agree with a lot of your responses but our thoughts regarding a new
declaration with regards to caatur-varnya is against one and only one
issue as follows :- Does a family of x-caste have to follow the same
occupation and be known as belonging to x-caste till eternity? Our answer
is "No". I hope you are in agreement with me."
First things first: I don't feel a need for any new declaration on
varNAshrama. varNAshrama, with all its real and imagined weaknesses has
stood the test of time and in my humble analysis, it has prevented our
forefathers from becoming muslims or christians. Just see the cultures
Islam and Christianity have uprooted and analyze their social structures,
you will understand.
The answer to the second question is: It is ideal that they do so. It
helps.
"I think there will always be four varnas in all cultures as taught by
shruti. The question is whether the caste should be determined by birth or
by choice."
choice is a flimsy thing.
1. There are people these days who claim that they are
man-locked-up-in-a-woman's-body and vice versa. Once they get their sex
changed, they may feel the urge to go back to their former selves. On a
lighter note, there was a woman who had come to the Indian Institute of
Science when I was studying there 7 yrs ago. on being requested by a group
called Queer (the group which purportedly stood for lesbian, gay, bisexual,
transgender rights). This singer claimed that she was gay. One was confused
because going by her sex, she should have called herself a lesbian. But she
gave a clarification that she is a man trapped in a woman's body and she
feels the urge to have sex with men, hence she isn't a lesbian, she is
gay!!!
2. There are people who militate against the principle of stable
marriage in sanAtana dharma saying that their partners need to be
determined based on their "current" state of mind. One needn't imagine the
social incohesion, depravity and wretchedness this will cause in the
society, one just needs to see the record of scandinavian countries. Europe
as a whole is following suit and so is the US.
3. An agnihotri while performing a somayAga suddenly feels that he is no
longer a brahmin, and he has to go to war. Or a warrior in the battlefield
suddenly feels that he is an agnihotri. Is this what is being suggested?
4. It doesn't take an Einstein to determine that we aren't what we were
yesterday, so, our varNa will go on changing by the day/hour/minute? Why
even talk of such a flimsy thing as that or why limit it to 4 varNas? Don't
you see it clearly that you want to concoct something that has the shell of
sanAtana dharma devoid of its soul? The Christians do it much better. They
have appropriated diipAvali, in Kerala they have appropriated vidyArambha,
and we know that they are trying very hard to appropriate Yoga. What you
are aiming for is a cheap imitiation of their efforts.
So, are we to rest one's varNa on choice?
" Actually this question is already answered as a matter of everyday-fact
by the Hindu community at large."
Just because a large number of people are doing something wrong, it
doesn't endorse or condone the act.
varNa of a person is determined by his past karma. Birth in a certain
yoni is dependent on one's accumulated karma. Anyone who denies this may
call himself anything but a "hindu".
> Respected scholars svAmI lalitAlAlitaH and shrivathsa
> I agree with a lot of your responses but our thoughts regarding a new
> declaration with regards to caatur-varnya is against one and only one
> issue as follows :- Does a family of x-caste have to follow the same
> occupation and be known as belonging to x-caste till eternity? Our answer
> is "No". I hope you are in agreement with me.
> I think there will always be four varnas in all cultures as taught by
> shruti. The question is whether the caste should be determined by birth or
> by choice. Actually this question is already answered as a matter of
> everyday-fact by the Hindu community at large.
> regards
> Shrikant Jamadagni
> Bangalore
> --- On *Wed, 11/7/12, dr. Satyanarayana Das <d...@jiva.org>* wrote:
> Hariom,
> I advise the august members of this group to read "Being Different',
> "Breaking India", by Rajiv Malhotra. This issue has been dealt very nicely
> by him.
> Such issues are raised to make Hindus feel guilty and lose faith in their
> own scriptures and religion. Then they are soft targets for conversion to
> Christianity or Islam.
> There are discrimination in every society. In USA, which is propagated as
> the land of freedom, there are seperate churches for blacks and whites.
> Communism failed because it was against difference among various class of
> people.
> Difference is unavoidable. that is sanaatana dharma. But there should be
> no exploitaion. In our own body head is different from handas,belly, and
> feet. But they work in cooperation. If my foot is heart my head will
> direct my hand to help it.
> The real problem is lack of spiritual education and lack of good
> character. as long as avidya exists the strong will exploit the weak.
> There is a joke, in capitalism man exploits man, in communism it is other
> way around.
> S. N. Dasa
> On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 5:20 PM, Shrivathsa B <shrivathsa.bra...@gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=shrivathsa.bra...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> hariH OM,
> I bow down in reverence to the response of svAmI lalitAlAlitaH.
> People everywhere seem to have the impression that once the Hindu
> Shastras fail to be "imposed" (it was never imposed and is not being
> imposed these days either), this world will become paradise. Let us ask
> ourselves simple questions:
> 1. There is discrimination of the worst sort everywhere in the form of
> monetary discrimination. A person with a money bag will get a medical seat,
> PG medical seat etc. He can bribe his way out of any heinous crime, etc.
> etc. etc. Instead of fighting this, the target is Hindu shAstras which have
> for long been neglected and who aren't being practiced anymore.
> 2. The discrimination due to status is another form of discrimination
> being practiced in India right now. An MP or an MLA lives a life which is
> as (if not more) decadent as any king of the past. It is this
> discrimination which needs to be our focus, rather than the discrimination
> against which laws have been enacted. Moreover, the "discrimination"
> earlier was not in the sugar-coated pill of "equality" (everyone is equal
> in law, but some are more equal than others!!!).
> 3. There are laws against untouchability and even laws against calling
> people "caste names", still people like Amir Khan want to talk about
> untouchability. Amazing. This is simply brazenness. Anyone who wants to
> talk against Hindu Shastra automatically gets the aura of Intellectualism.
> Is this a failure of law that even with reverse discriminative laws they
> haven't been able to uproot the "evil"? In case so, let us talk about
> implementation of the laws.
> 4. The word "untouchability" is designed to put every hindu on the
> back foot, make him guilty of all real and imagined crimes that his
> forefathers have committed in the past. It is conveniently forgotten that
> the members of "higher" castes used to provide for education of "lower"
> castes, let out their premises for the marriages of "lower" caste members
> etc.
> 5. Suddenly, there is an urge to declare that the "varNa" system that
> was prescribed was not based on birth, but on the "guNa"s. So, if there be
> a new "varNa" system as exhorted by Shri Ganesh etc., will untouchability
> be accepted? This goes to show that the varNa vyavasthA as was practiced is
> never the problem (in case this not be the deduction, then the exhortation
> will go in vain).
> 6. Why is it that the facts of Shudra Kings like Proleya Vema Reddy
> inscribing that he is taking up arms to protect the "brahmins and cows" of
> Andhra conveniently forgotten? If the shudras were so oppressed by
> brahmins, why would they have taken up arms against Islam at all? Same goes
> for shudra warriors in the north.
> 7. Why is it that Amir Khan wants to raise up a bogeyman of
> untouchability against which laws have been enforced than talk of evils
> against which laws haven't been implemented (burqa system, genital
> mutilation of children, etc.).
> 8. A great man once hath said, "For the white man, his equality begins
> with food and ends with sleep" (i.e. sleeping with the "equal" partner).
> 9. How is it that the "oppressed" shudras used to control a large part
> of the economy of India even till the 1750s (Economic History of India by
> R. C. Dutt).
> 10. The Hindus who take in these arguments find an immediate urge to
> "reform" sanAtana dharma as is being practiced, although it has undergone
> thousands of reformation initiatives. Any more "reformation" and there will
> be nothing to give or take between "us" and "them" (people of other
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 11:06 PM, Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My only contention is difference is the very nature of this world and one
> has to transcend it.
If it's nature of world, of which you are a part, then you can't transcend
difference.
Nature is that which is not changed.
> In this process, the rUpa has to be changed and the svarUpa remains
> unchanged.
And, svarUpa = nature. So, difference never goes is what you mean !! ??
> varna or jaati are only too peripheral to sanaatanadharma
I don't know about which sanAtana-dharma you are talking. Atleast,
sanAtana-dharma based on veda-s is not of such nature. varNa is it's very
important part as yAga, etc. are for specific adhikArin-s with specific
varNa-s.
A little more study will reveal to you that chAturvarNya is the sign of
vaidika-dharma.
> and our own life styles is an example of this.
Those who transgress vaidika-vidhi-s, etc. are in no way example for
vaidika-s.
Remember tattirIyakopaniShat -yAnyasmAkam sucharitAni,............
> If you are not for this, it naturally shows that you are not in tune with
> the anubhava
Bowing down to kAma, etc. is not puruShArtha. So, these people are not one
with you.
Moreover, remember that chAturvarNya, etc. is not extinct yet(instead of
your prophecy).
> and hence I only have to say svasti tubhyaM vitaNDinE!
Same tactics as used by SMJ, etc.
Anyway, vitaNDA need very special quality. So, we are proud of having this
ability. Now, save your views.
