Range smoke?

[Todd May]

I was shocked last night while shooting a local weekly league match .22 indoor match. By the time we got to rapid fire stage, there was so much smoke in the range that my eyes were watering and itchy. I could taste the lead in my mouth. Well the blurry eyesight did not help my rapid, easily 10 points off. I did mention to the hosting team captain that the range conditions were unacceptable and dangerous. My question is this, is there a rule that covers this type of range condition in any rule book? Frankly I do not think I will shoot there anymore. Should I have called a range alibi?

Thanks

Todd May

[dan allen]

Todd, I am a little surprised that you have not received any replies on this subject yet. I was curious what the responses would be. You are not the first person to comment on this problem. I guess it's a good thing I had a "tummy ache" that night. BTW who won? Dan --- On Fri, 1/13/12, Todd May <to...@maysphotography.com> wrote:

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[jdric...@cox.net]

It's not covered by NRA Rules. It would be subject to EPA air standards. It appears the ventilation is severely inadequate. Shooters need to complain and not shoot until the air is cleared or avoid this range completely until they improve theire range.

John Rickards

Fairfax, VA
---- dan allen <alle...@yahoo.com> wrote:

=============

Todd, I am a little surprised that you have not received any replies on this subject yet. I was curious what the responses would be. You are not the first person to comment on this problem. I guess it's a good thing I had a "tummy ache" that night. BTW who won? Dan --- On Fri, 1/13/12, Todd May <to...@maysphotography.com> wrote: From: Todd May <to...@maysphotography.com> Subject: {Bullseye L List} Range smoke? To: "Fobes Joe" <bullsey...@googlegroups.com> Date: Friday, January 13, 2012, 9:30 AM I was shocked last night while shooting a local weekly league match .22 indoor match.  By the time we got to rapid fire stage, there was so much smoke in the range that my eyes were watering and itchy.  I could taste the lead in my mouth.  Well the blurry eyesight did not help my rapid, easily 10 points off.  I did mention to the hosting team captain that the range conditions were unacceptable and dangerous.  My question is this, is there a rule that covers this type of range condition in any rule book?  Frankly I do not think I will shoot there anymore.  Should I have called a range alibi? Thanks Todd May

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." --Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, 1785

[thefrib]

EPA only regulates air external of buildings.Try OSHA or the local
health dept.

On Jan 14, 8:41 am, <jdricka...@cox.net> wrote:
> It's not covered by NRA Rules. It would be subject to EPA air standards. It appears the ventilation is severely inadequate. Shooters need to complain and not shoot until the air is cleared or avoid this range completely until they improve theire range.
>
> John Rickards
> Fairfax, VA

> ---- dan allen <allend...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> =============
> Todd,
> I am a little surprised that you have not received any replies on this subject yet. I was curious what the responses would be. You are not the first person to comment on this problem. I guess it's a good thing I had a "tummy ache" that night. BTW who won?
> Dan
>

> --- On Fri, 1/13/12, Todd May <t...@maysphotography.com> wrote:

[Marty Goodman]

Private ranges are not subject to any regulations. If the club has paid employees, OSHA

Gets involved. It is my understanding the EPA has no right to inspect a private club.

Sent from my iPad

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[orionshooter]

And while you call EPA or OSHA or any of the state regulatory agencies, remember the old adage, "Be very careful what you ask for." Once you invite that 800 pound gorilla into the room, you may find yourself with a guest who won't leave.

Consider trying to handle this problem internally and without asking the government for "help." Your range, like most others is an endangered species with no protection from extinction. Tread very carefully.

F. Paul Figlia - Attorney at Law

[John Wax]

Good point Paul. BTW, how many indoor shooters have their blood tested to include the "Heavy Metal" screen for lead content? If you shoot once or more per week, I'd strongly suggest the test once a year.

In New York State, a reading above 15 will get you a call from the State Health Department to discuss why and where you're getting "overdosed".

John

[Rob Sumsky]

Well said, Paul.

I carry a respirator in my range bag for such circumstances.  I scored a whopping 57 on my lead test a few years back, that I attributed to poorly ventilated / cared for ranges.  Available at Home Depot or the like, the P100 with the replaceable side filters does the trick for me.

Rob

[Jeff Baxter]

Why not complain, get the tree huggers involved, get the range shut down, and quit shooting. Or go to a auto paint store, and buy a mask filter, that will filter the toxins out. We used to shoot a 50 foot league that had bad ventalatiion, and thats what Roe Hicks did. He's a chemical engineer. I followed suit, and it worked great. No govt. involvement. Problem solved. good luck....................Jeff Baxter........

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[F. Paul Figlia]

 

 

 

Marty is exactly correct.  However, there are likely to be several regulatory agencies on the state level who wouldn’t hesitate to “help.”

 

F. Paul Figlia - Attorney at Law

3092 Evergreen Pkwy., #101
Evergreen, Colorado 80439-7915
303.670.4179
303.670.4180 fax
pa...@figlialaw.com


"I find that a great part of the information I have was acquired by looking up something and finding something else on the way." - Franklin P. Adams

 

From: Jeff Baxter

Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 10:09 AM

To: Marty Goodman ; jdric...@cox.net ; bullsey...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: {Bullseye L List} Range smoke?

 

[syu...@netzero.net]

I haven't read all the replies, but I am disturbed at the lack of common courtesy to the owner. Nobody has stated to make contact with the owner and find out why it was smokey on the range. As a range owner I know for a fact stupid things happen, like forgetting to turn on all breakers for the range ventilation. You get a bunch of guys shooting center fire with lead bullets and bullseye powder and things get smokey fast. Just ask the range owner before you get government bureaucrats involved that just love to make themselves look good shutting down a shooting range. Or, just don't shoot there. Let's keep the government out and support your local range or club if you like it, don't go there if you don't.

 

Steve

Powder Room Gun Shop & Target Range

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
consumerproducts.com

[Wesley Lorenz]

About 7 years ago at a range in Seattle, one shooter contacted the State about lead contamination in the range.
The league was ended before being finished and the indoor range closed forever.........................
It's my understanding that this league had been held continuously since starting after WWII.
If you shoot indoors, wear a mask, drink milk afterwards, take calcium tables and or charcoal tablets and you will be fine. I get my lead level checked once a year and it has been under 15 for a long time.
Hope this helps,
Wes

--

[Jack H]

I don't need to, or want to, shoot indoors if masks etc are needed.  Your situation may vary. Jack H --- On Sat, 1/14/12, Wesley Lorenz <highmast...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Wesley Lorenz <highmast...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: {Bullseye L List} Range smoke?

[John Coulter]

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Jack H <myguns.h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I don't need to, or want to, shoot indoors if masks etc are needed.  Your situation may vary.
>

I agree. I won't shoot at ranges with poor ventilation. It's not worth it.

JC

[Marty Goodman]

Steve

The problem is with private ranges that do not have the funds to properly vent the range.

Marty

Sent from my iPad

[John Coulter]

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Marty Goodman <mart...@charter.net> wrote:

> The problem is with private ranges that do not have the funds to properly
> vent the range.

Not poisoning the customers should be part of the business plan.

Don't want government "help"? Step up. Don't want to get sued? Step
up, or fold. That's how the marketplace works.

Every indoor range in my area has stepped up and improved ventilation.
Everyone benefits.

JC

[dan allen]

Steve, The range in question, of which I am a member, is a private member owned non profit shooting club. The ventilation is marginal at best and the air does get a bit thick by the end the second or third relay on league nights. Some people do wear respirators and no one wants to get the state or anybody from the EPA involved. Dan --- On Sat, 1/14/12, syu...@netzero.net <syu...@netzero.net> wrote:

From: syu...@netzero.net <syu...@netzero.net> Subject: Re: {Bullseye L List} Range smoke?

--

[Chris_D Expert]

I shoot at an indoor range all the time - I live outside Chicago so outdoor ranges are a bit of a drive.  Most of the time they remember to turn on the vents, sometimes they forget. I remind them and they turn it on and all is well.  But, I really wonder how serious the problem actually is.

 

We all know smokeless powder is smokey, some more than others like Bullseye.  Okay, so I shoot indoors and my gun powder creates smoke, is that really a hazard? Is there lead dust in that airborne smoke?  I don't know for sure one way or the other.  I would guess that the smoke is about as harmful as standing next to someone smoking, I don't believe there is all that much lead in the smoke which seems to be at the core of this bitch session.  So, unless someone can substantiate the claim there is a concern about lead poisoning in the smoke, let's not start making that a part of the problem.  I realize there is lead in bullets and I realize there is probably lead dust in the trap area, but I really don't see how lead poisoning is a problem at the firing line, especially within the smoke. 

 

I don't mind being wrong, but so far I have not seen any substantial proof or evidence that gunsmoke contains enough lead to cause problems.  Handling bullets is most probably a MUCH bigger concern.  If there is some documented proof harmful amounts of lead is contained within gunsmoke, I would like to see the data.

 

Chris

 

[F. Paul Figlia]

 

 

I think I have read every email in this thread and don’t see anyone “bitchin.”   Seems to me like the thread started with someone asking for advice. Some well intentioned suggestions were made and then commented upon.  

 

I see no data to suggest anyone is bitching – just having a discussion.

 

F. Paul Figlia - Attorney at Law
3092 Evergreen Pkwy., #101
Evergreen, Colorado 80439-7915
303.670.4179
303.670.4180 fax
pa...@figlialaw.com


"I find that a great part of the information I have was acquired by looking up something and finding something else on the way." - Franklin P. Adams

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[John Wax]

Chris-

 

http://www.utexas.edu/safety/ehs/msds/lead.html

 

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_8875.cfm

 

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/blog/nsb051809_firingrange.html

 

The list goes on.....Google "lead contamination from guns".

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris_D Expert

To: bullsey...@googlegroups.com

Cc: dan allen

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[Jack H]

If you ever clean out a 22 compensator, you will be convinced there is more lead coming out the muzzle than just the projectile.  Whether it be more from the projectile or the priming compound, or both, I don't know.  But it is there. Jack H

[Ed Masaki]

Subject: Re: {Bullseye L List} Range smoke?

And while you call EPA or OSHA or any of the state regulatory agencies,
remember the old adage, "Be very careful what you ask for." Once you invite
that 800 pound gorilla into the room, you may find yourself with a guest who
won't leave.
Consider trying to handle this problem internally and without asking the
government for "help." Your range, like most others is an endangered species
with no protection from extinction. Tread very carefully.
F. Paul Figlia - Attorney at Law

I LIKE WHAT PAUL WROTE. VERY WISE WISDOM. ED M.

[Chris_D Expert]

Firing ranges are technically toxic waste sites "The grounds of some of the nation's 8,000 public and private recreational shooting ranges are contaminated with hundreds of tons of lead from bullets," said Rick Lowden, a metallurgist with Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), a facility managed by the Department of Energy (DOE), in their Metals and Ceramics Division. Lowden is the chief developer of the ESPTM bullet.

 

Above is a quote from one of the web sites referenced.  It states that some of the ranges are "contaminated with hundreds of tons of lead". Forgive me for being a bit "off center", but I can say without question, there is not "hundreds of tons" of lead in any of the ranges I have ever been to. 

 

The next website (CDC) goes into detail about "basic personal hygiene practices will limit or eliminate the risk of lead exposure" for workers who deal with shooting ranges. They recommend respirators and outer clothing when performing range maintenance. They have pointed out what we already know, don't ingest lead.  Blow you nose, wash your hands and face, etc.  and you will minimize or elimiate the risk!

 

I might be a bit less worried as I have worked in the manufacturing industries for the last 30 years and have been exposed to MUCH more toxic matter than what I experience in the range.  I guess if people are so concerned about lead poisoning, perhaps they shouldn't be shooting in the first place. If you handle the bullets (or cartridges) and don't wash your hands, you will gain expsosure to lead poisoning.  So, while there may be some potential for lead in the air we breathe at a range, there is much more potential and probability to lead exposure with just handling our own ammo and guns. 

 

Like others have said, be careful about calling in the government!  If you are not capable of washing yourself or blowing your own nose as a measure to prevent lead poisoning and require the help of the the government, I can assure you the government will legislate our few remaining ranges out of business!

 

Chris

 

 

 

[John]

Whether there’s “hundreds of tons” at my range isn’t the point. Breathing the air there is.

Have you had your blood tested? I’m suggesting anybody that shoots indoors does.

Take it or leave it, but saying it isn’t a problem at many ranges is just wrong.

John

 

 

From: bullsey...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bullsey...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris_D Expert
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 5:08 PM
To: bullsey...@googlegroups.com
Cc: dan allen
Subject: Re: {Bullseye L List} Range smoke?

 

Firing ranges are technically toxic waste sites "The grounds of some of the nation's 8,000 public and private recreational shooting ranges are contaminated with hundreds of tons of lead from bullets," said Rick Lowden, a metallurgist with Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), a facility managed by the Department of Energy (DOE), in their Metals and Ceramics Division. Lowden is the chief developer of the ESPTM bullet.

--

[Steve C]

On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 12:04:25 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>I shoot at an indoor range all the time - I live outside Chicago so outdoor ranges are a bit of a drive. Most of the time they remember to turn on the vents, sometimes they forget. I remind them and they turn it on and all is well. But, I really wonder how serious the problem actually is.

When shooting alone at 10 PM on cold nights I am guilty of turning the
fan off (to not suck in cold air as I score targets) and not turning
it back on. But I don't have clouds of smoke from others and if others
are there we have an EPA approved ventilation system and it would
remain on. I had my blood level tested 2 months ago and it was an
acceptable reading of 4 parts per bazillion (or whatever the standard
is). While not in acceptable range for an infant, well within accepted
range for an adult. The best number is obviously "zero". If one is
getting a physical, getting a lead test included is a good idea at
least every few years, IMO, and every year if the ventilation is poor
or reloading lead bullets. That's the advice I've been given.

Steve
Charlotte, NC

[Waltz]

I use to sell to radiator repairmen. Talk about lead poising. And so what……….it is our life. We should be able to shoot indoors, ride motorcycles, race cars, skydive, scuba dive, or box…………danger is a degree only the participant should get involved in. As a farmer I inhaled more chemicals than 99+% of the population for a living, and it did not bother me. It certainly should not involve the government on what I did for a living that did not hurt me. At my age trizenes, pencap, chlordane, and 2-4D should have killed me. Instead it made my operation profitable so I can live a good retirement. Guess those days are over.

Ron

 

From: bullsey...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bullsey...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris_D Expert
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 5:08 PM
To: bullsey...@googlegroups.com
Cc: dan allen
Subject: Re: {Bullseye L List} Range smoke?

 

Firing ranges are technically toxic waste sites "The grounds of some of the nation's 8,000 public and private recreational shooting ranges are contaminated with hundreds of tons of lead from bullets," said Rick Lowden, a metallurgist with Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), a facility managed by the Department of Energy (DOE), in their Metals and Ceramics Division. Lowden is the chief developer of the ESPTM bullet.

--

[Chuck Holt]

Hundreds of tons of lead? At current scrap prices we're sitting on a
friggin gold mine!

[John Coulter]

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Chuck Holt <chol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hundreds of tons of lead? At current scrap prices we're sitting on a
> friggin gold mine!
>

The article said there were over 8,000 shooting ranges in the US.

200,000 pounds (100 tons) of lead divided by 8,000 ranges is only 25#/range.

You know most ranges have more than that in their traps and berms.

Lead mining at ranges is a profitable concern, for the ranges and the recyclers.

It is estimated that pistol week at Perry deposits several thousand
pounds of metal on the ranges every year.

JC

[war...@aol.com]

I totlly agree Ed ,but if they do not like it don't badmouth the range , just do not go!

Subject: Re: {Bullseye L List} Range smoke?

And while you call EPA or OSHA or any of the state regulatory agencies,
remember the old adage, "Be very careful what you ask for."  Once you invite
that 800 pound gorilla into the room, you may find yourself with a guest who
won't leave.
Consider trying to handle this problem internally and without asking the
government for "help." Your range, like most others is an endangered species
with no protection from extinction.  Tread very carefully.
F. Paul Figlia - Attorney at Law

      I LIKE WHAT PAUL WROTE.   VERY WISE WISDOM.      ED M.

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[jhitt]

Two years ago I had my lead levels checked and was surprised that they
were elevated, enough that my doctor had to report them to the state
and I got a call from someone at the state health department asking if
I knew the cause. Many trap ranges have been closed because of lead
issues. In my opinion it's a matter of time before the EPA or state
health officials look at indoor ranges. I have worn a respirator when
I shoot indoors for the last two years. They are cheap and I recommend
them to anyone listening. I will not rely on range ventilation to take
care of this problem for me. Amazing what the filter looked like
after one season.
JHitt

[David Daniels]

Not every indoor range is a commercial facility. Many are club ranges
with very limited funds.

My club is in the process of renovation due to a poor air flow
system. Unfortunately, *other* problems have been found that will
require total roof replacement, tear down and relocation of kitchen
and restrooms, replacement of two heating systems, etc. While no firm
dollar numbers are yet set, I would not be surprised at a total price
tag upwards of $600K.

dd

[Mike]

Jeez, go away for a day and miss a lively topic.

Looks like it morphed into two actually, range safety/smoke and lead.
After reading all the replies I would agree with the thought that you DO
NOT invite the government to get involved at any level. I can just about
guarantee the range will get closed. Your best option is to choose not
to shoot there if this a continual issue. Our club just finished
building a new indoor range after almost 50 years at a basement type
poorly ventilated hole it is a huge difference. That thought leads us to
part II, the dreaded lead.
Some years back, maybe 10 or so (God has it been that long?!) , I had a
stretch where I was shooter at this old range almost daily during my
lunch break. I was shooting an "Ivan". After a couple months of
improvement I started shooting worse, tremors, forgetfulness, unable to
concentrate, irritable. Had my lead level checked and it was 64! Did a
lot of reading and a lot of discussion on the old Bullseye-l list.
Started using a P100 rated mask and washing thoroughly. Ate before I
shot and not after. After a year it was down to 10. Stays low and I have
it checked every year. As things go I don't shoot that much anymore and
my scores haven't changed much so I am not sure all of that shooting
really helped. The county health dept. wanted to know at the time why it
could be so high. I refused to tell them anything. Never trust a
bureaucracy. They do not have your interests at heart.

That said, the ventilation on the new range is best described as
"breezy" Since this is a winter league in Iowa you want to wear a
sweatshirt and warm pants while shooting or you will get chilled. This
thing really moves a lot of air. I noticed no smoke in the air during
.45 rapid the last couple matches. I am leaving the mask at home now so
we'll see how that goes.

Mike
IA

[Richard Ashmore]

Most of the airborne lead comes from the primer, and yes, without
adequate ventilation it can be a huge problem.

The motivation for my club getting ventilation up to code was two-
fold-

1. two club members had occupational exposure to lead so they were in
blood lead monitoring where they worked. After they started shooting
at our indoor range their blood lead rose, and their employer was
concerned about his potential liability and/or increased scrutiny from
regulatory agencies.

2. We have an active sub-junior program, and the state started
requiring a blood lead test for all students enrolling for the first
time in a public school.

We hired an industrial hygienist and confirmed that airborne lead
rapidly rose when firing began at our range. After bringing the
ventilation up to code we had no more trouble.

Richard Ashmore

[Chris_D Expert]

Richard,

Seeing as you had proper controls in place with an industrial hygienist, I am sure the study continued beyond a brief sample at the firing line.  A complete study would have included measuring the actual levels of lead within the population of the shooters on the line. This would tell everyone if there is an actual risk of lead poisoning.

The only way I see this being a valid concern is if the hygeineist took blood samples from the shooters. Simply stating that lead levels were higher at the firing line only states the obvious.  It does not confirm that it increases lead poisoning in a person.  There is a real and substantial difference between the two statements.

I know that if I handle lead or am exposed to lead there is a chance my lead levels will increase.  However, being exposed to lead (fumes or dust) does not mean I will suffer from lead poisoning.  The level of ingestion may be so minimal that it doesn't create a concern.

I don't mean to be combative in the results you guys found at your range.  I am only trying to determine if there has been an actual study of shooters and the resulting rise in lead poisoning from shooting.  And even more specifically, from shooting only and not the handling of bullets, or other objects containing lead.

Based on your brief statement, the only thing that has been confirmed it that lead levels are high when shooting on the firing line. Did all shooters at the range see a equal rise in lead poisoning problems or just the two people that had problems to start with?  The "problem" that went away after fixing the ventilation, was it lead poisoning or just a reduction in exposure to lead?

Chris

Chris

[David Daniels]

Taking blood samples must be voluntary and would be of little value
unless one knew how often each person shot on the Indoor Range as well
as if they had any other source of exposure.

JMHO, dd

[Richard Ashmore]

It's been a while, but I was one of the folks with elevated blood
lead. I had been in blood lead monitoring for ~five years before
joining the club with no problems. A friend I worked with joined with
me. Our next three routine tests showed increasing blood lead levels,
and there was no change in our work habits.

The IH put monitors on eight shooters. After a session of shooting
that lasted about two hours the Time Weighted Average for the airborne
lead was, as I recall, about ten times the OSHA Physiological
Exposure Limit. After the range ventilation was improved, and the
airborne lead was within the OSHA Physiological Exposure Limit our
blood lead decreased.

Several others had blood lead tests, they, too, were elevated. And
after ventilating the range they decreased.

We didn't wait for someone to get clinically ill, and we really
didn't wan't to deal with the Department of Health if one of our
junior shooters turned up with high blood lead.

Richard