world brain and global game

[Robert Steele]

I have gotten more out of this list's active contributors than any other list I have browsed that I can remember.  Thank you.

Where I think we are headed is toward a world brain and global game, which is where 24 of of us including Medard Gabel, the co-creator
with Buckminster Fuller of the analog World Game, have been focused since 2006.  It boils down to facts, things, minds, and opinions.

Reference: World Brain Institute & Global Game

I have been a complete failure at getting anyone with funding interested--my preferred shot, Sir Richard Branson, is protected by corporate development folks that just cannot compute the value of "The Virgin Truth" on top of giving free open source cell phones to the three billion poor and monetizing the back end via call centers that both educate one cell call at a time, and serve as the virtual brain for the community, nation, region, globe.

There are two others whose work I would mention, the first for his interest in Open Hypertextdocument System (linking at paragraph level), and the second for Internet Economy Meta-Language.

Who’s Who in Collective Intelligence: Douglas Engelbart

Who’s Who in Collective Intelligence: Pierre Levy

I am personally convinced we can own all of this at $5 per rich person (that's $5 billion), free to the 5 billion poor, and put this out in a chapter in 2008, but have never found the right group to work with.

Call to Arms: Fund We Not Them

I sincerely hope all of you make progress soon.

[Poor Richard]

On Saturday, April 16, 2011 1:47:43 PM UTC-5, Robert wrote:

I have gotten more out of this list's active contributors than any other list I have browsed that I can remember.  Thank you.

Where I think we are headed is toward a world brain and global game, which is where 24 of of us including Medard Gabel, the co-creator
with Buckminster Fuller of the analog World Game, have been focused since 2006.  It boils down to facts, things, minds, and opinions.

Reference: World Brain Institute & Global Game

I only read the 2-page overview, but it reminds me of a premise I thought of for combining my "General Utility 2.0" framework for modelling the major algorithms of the biosphere and human culture with 3D massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) simulations into a "save the world" game.

There are two others whose work I would mention, the first for his interest in Open Hypertextdocument System (linking at paragraph level), and the second for Internet Economy Meta-Language.

Both sound interesting.

PR

[Robert Steele]

I tried to get the MMORPG guys out of Iceland to take an interest, but they are happy right where they are.

[Venessa Miemis]

why not just make a facebook app?

290 million people a month play games on facebook... some estimate
it's the equivalent of about 927 million hours of gameplay a month.

as of july, purchase of any virtual good on facebook will have to be
done via facebook credits. (facebook takes a 30% cut. brilliant.)

more than 200 million people access facebook from their mobile device.

so you make a quasi-social facebook game that you play in the real
world via your mobile device, but what the game is is performing
microwork tasks that get rewarded via facebook credits. (like....
instead of picking vegetables in farmville, you pick vegetables at a
local farm or CSA.)

so casual gamers get to get paid in credits so they can keep playing
their games, and also are saving the world while they do it.

virtual economy, ftw!

[Poor Richard]

On Saturday, April 16, 2011 4:04:30 PM UTC-5, Venessa Miemis wrote:

so you make a quasi-social facebook game that you play in the real
world via your mobile device, but what the game is is performing
microwork tasks that get rewarded via facebook credits. (like....
instead of picking vegetables in farmville, you pick vegetables at a
local farm or CSA.)

so casual gamers get to get paid in credits so they can keep playing
their games, and also are saving the world while they do it.

I'm a little unclear how you pick vegetables at a local farm or CSA using a mobile device....can iphones do that now, too?

PR

[Venessa Miemis]

> I'm a little unclear how you pick vegetables at a local farm or CSA using a
> mobile device....can iphones do that now, too?

lol. no, you actually do it with your physical body. but you find
opportunities for games/points/rewards/credits via your mobile device.

try a search for "mobile augmented reality"

i believe it's what they're calling "gamification" of the real world

basically using game dynamics to incentivize actual work.

just you wait and see......

[om Design]

Blizzard is about to release their new system and I'm going through a friend to suggest to their CEO that we could use the 'old' technology to develop a worldometer that is fed by handheld phones via SMS.

[Poor Richard]

OK I get it. .. "gamification" of the real world. Eeu.

[Robert Steele]

MORE PLEASE.  This is of very high interest to me.  UNICEF has done some incredibly good things in a narrow range (kid arm circumference at age of 12 is superb health indicator, fills a back office database).  What works for me is a digraph or trigraph panel that folks can call in.  I really like with the Crisis Mappers are doing, below is a link after three SMS links.

Worth a Look: UNICEF RapidSMS

Review: SMS Uprising: Mobile Activism in Africa

Worth a Look: GeoChat (SMS Plotted on Map)

Ushandi Moves Forward with Crisis Mapping Check-In

Crisis Mapping Libya: This Is No Haiti…

Live Crisis Mapping: Routing Around Old Mindsets

Reference: Crisis Mapping

Medard Gabel, whom I consider the top thinker in this area, has been working on a world dashboard concept, but his model is necessarily defined by the UN which is a horrible kludge of special interests and nowhere near a strategic analytic model such as neededat the top level (to UN credit, the high level panel on threats, challenge, and change nailed the key part: ten threats in priority order).

[Venessa Miemis]

On Apr 16, 6:30 pm, Poor Richard <poor.rica...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK I get it. .. "gamification" of the real world. Eeu.

oh, come on. did you know that 3 billion hours A WEEK are spent
playing online games?

yes, that's 3 BILLION hours.

i'd say there's a hell of an impetus to inject meaningful
worldchanging activity with a bit of fun, play, creativity, and
adventure.

i happen to see the world as an epic adventure, but many people
don't.

why not make positive change into a game that we want to win?

[Robert Steele]

Here are four pieces.  We never got to anyone with real money, after my for profit crashed I had to stop subsidizing the non-profit.

• World Brain 101
• World Brain 102
• World Brain 103
• World Brain 104

My dream would be to create the World Brain Institute at Stanford alongside their Liberation Technology outfit, with endowment from Sir Richard Branson whom I would love to see fund a global commercial company, "The Virgin Truth," while funding Range Networks toward OpenBTS for the three billion poor.  I lack the access to anyone anywhere to actually think seriously about this.  It would pay for itself within three years and thereafter begin cutting waste and corruption by 20% a year (wag).

Medard Gabel is the ONLY person now living that actually created a World Game (as co-creator with Buckminster Fuller).

Journal: Brains Beat Algorithms….Again

Reference: The Revolution IS Being Tweeted

Graphics: Twitter as an Intelligence Tool

Jane McGonigal has great instincts, but has been up-marketed to the point of not connecting to people like Medard who could mentor her own genius by providing all the stuff she does not know (I hope it is clear I am equally admiring of both of them, they just won't connect to each other, someone has to bring them together and I  can no longer fund that kind of overture).

Who’s Who in Collective Intelligence: Jane McGonigal

URGENT EVOKE: The End of Old Government

Review: Reality Is Broken–Why Games Make Us Better and How They Can Change the World

[Venessa Miemis]

On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Robert Steele <robert.david...@gmail.com> wrote:

MORE PLEASE.  This is of very high interest to me.  UNICEF has done some incredibly good things in a narrow range (kid arm circumference at age of 12 is superb health indicator, fills a back office database).  What works for me is a digraph or trigraph panel that folks can call in.  I really like with the Crisis Mappers are doing, below is a link after three SMS links.

right, well.. you've already listed Ushahidi, which is open source and first created for crisis mapping, but can be used for any kind of visualization and interactive mapping.  i've had a lot of thoughts on how this could be used for soooo many things, just using your mobile device to send text, images, and video to map onto locations. 

http://www.ushahidi.com/

here's another cool tool i found and got implemented into our city - SeeClickFix, where you can alert the local government about issues in the neighborhood.. anything from potholes and graffiti to creepy people/vehicles lurking in neighborhoods.

http://www.seeclickfix.com/

i think i've mentioned to you before Groundcrew, which enables collective action at the ground level around tasks that need to be accomplished.

http://groundcrew.us/

then there's platforms like Foursquare, which allow you to earn badges and become "mayor" of a location just for checking in there enough times. now advertisers offer discounts if you check in, and better incentives if you're mayor. there's really no functional purpose to this yet, but you can imagine if you combined check-ins with purpose driven missions with financial incentives and a way to update your status and notify your friends about the cool stuff you're doing...... well......

https://foursquare.com/

[Robert Steele]

Correct--what Clay Sharkey calls Cognitive Surplus, Yochai Benckler the Wealth of Networks.

What is NOT happening is the collection of "true cost" information, the loading of shareable databases across 183 languages,
and the development of participatory FACT-BASED decision-making at all levels on all issues.

For what the US Intelligence Community spends guarding non-secrets, I could have this going within the year.

[Devin Balkind]

A conversation about this topic was created two weeks ago on the contact summit google group under the title 'gamifying the gift economy': https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/contactsummit/4w3LWqO_B78

Our team is connecting rural and urban communities in the New York area through a game with the following ingredients: (1) farm, (2) coworking space, (3) biodiesel transportation.  We're also beginning to collect information about the products and services used by local businesses and figure out how our network can create these items within the context of play.  There are no technical hurdles, just a lot of community outreach, organizing and enthusiasm building that needs to be done.

I think we should all be making workshops that can contribute to the Global Village Construction Set, connecting coworking spaces with farms and building relationships with local businesses so they feel conformable sharing information about the products and services that they use on a regular basis so that we can start replacing them with 'in-network' alternatives.

In addition to a health 20% tip, I also give FLOfarm points.  People think it's cute.  It'll become more than cute when local businesses start taking these points because they can spend them on locally produced products and services.  As the network builds, I have no doubt we'll be able to build a mobile/online game using a completely open source software stack that makes interacting with the network fun and easy. 

I presented  'Launch a Regional Trading Network from your Coworking Space' at the Coworking Unconference and the space owners were digging it.  It's very simple.  I'll have an updated version next week which I'll share with the group.

--
Devin Balkind
@devinbalkind
vitamindwb.com

[Robert Steele]

Devin,

I like your content, social, gaming levels.

I believe we need two kind of content as quickly as possible into shared public databases that cannot be attacked and corrupted (which leaves Wikipedia out of the picture):

1)  True Cost Information on every product and service

Graphic: True Cost of a Cotton T-Shirt

Data-Hacking the Cotton T-Shirt: True Cost (water,energy,travel,emissions,toxins,import costs,child labor,fertilizer)

2)  Needs information at every level from individual to aggregate nation, based on participatory INFORMED dialog.

Here are two charts I created to try to visualize the second.   The cart for the first was created by JZ, the ExDir for Earth Intelligence Network, and first used at Hackers on Planet Earth 2010.

Graphic: Global Range of Nano-Needs

Graphic: Participatory Budget Outreach

I believe that placing true cost before the public will move markets (e.g. kill Nestle and Coca-Cola) and that placing the second before the one billion rich will create an infinite number of hybrids from one to one to many to one to one to many that actually address needs rather than overhead, the common corruption of the Red Cross and almost all others (I respect the Without Borders elements).

[Venessa Miemis]

On Apr 16, 7:07 pm, Robert Steele

<robert.david.steele.vi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Correct--what Clay Sharkey calls Cognitive Surplus, Yochai Benckler the
> Wealth of Networks.
>
> What is NOT happening is the collection of "true cost" information, the
> loading of shareable databases across 183 languages,
> and the development of participatory FACT-BASED decision-making at all
> levels on all issues.

how do you propose building a true cost database?

[Venessa Miemis]

On Apr 16, 8:53 pm, Robert Steele

<robert.david.steele.vi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Graphic: Global Range of

> Nano-Needs<http://www.phibetaiota.net/2011/04/2010/09/2008/08/graphic-global-ran...>

like this? - http://giftflow.org/

[Robert Steele]

sort of.  needs to be in 183 languages, and organized by need and location.  here is a graphic

Graphic: Global Range of Nano-Needs

[om Design]

Games are really hip. But they are mostly played by people sitting,
using idle time.
There are many functions of a game and employing fun interactivity is
great sounding...

Most of the people I would try to address are in basic need of water,
food, shelter and security from harm.

Examining these realities and working toward solutions doesn't need a
game interface IMO but there is a lot to be gained from the simplicity
that they present.
Sometimes things are serious and require serious effort. We have a lot
of levels of need and response, but it has been frustrating to watch a
wide population of humanitarian projects become 'gamefied' because it
is the cool thing to do. This is the 'top down' hubris seen with so
many Agencies.
WorldGame is different, conceptually, as it was an exercise to
brainstorm and shift thought-reality. Play really is excellent for
doing that.
On the ground however, the marginalized hungry or threatened person
needs a rapid response.
I reckon 'bottom-lateral-then-up' thinking would be easier to build
for and do more good.

Groundcrew is unique in that it has a trust mechanism built in that
uncovers positive actors based upon participation and feedback.
Ushahidi won't scale but has a lot going for it.
Frontline SMS is another example of really effective platform being
used to great effect.. mostly in the medical sector.

[Samuel Rose]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 3:22 PM, om Design <om....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Games are really hip. But they are mostly played by people sitting,
> using idle time.
> There are many functions of a game and employing fun interactivity is
> great sounding...
>

I tend to agree here. Games are great, but are one tool within a
spectrum There's also datamining, complex systems models, and actually
digging in and carefully working with people on the ground.

> Most of the people I would try to address are in basic need of water,
> food, shelter and security from harm.
>

Where are you doing this work currently?

> Examining these realities and working toward solutions doesn't need a
> game interface IMO but there is a lot to be gained from the simplicity
> that they present.

Sometimes complex systems models can be an alternative (coupled with
researching existing data from history).

> Sometimes things are serious and require serious effort. We have a lot
> of levels of need and response, but it has been frustrating to watch a
> wide population of humanitarian projects become 'gamefied' because it
> is the cool thing to do. This is the 'top down' hubris seen with so
> many Agencies.
> WorldGame is different, conceptually, as it was an exercise to
> brainstorm and shift thought-reality. Play really is excellent for
> doing that.
> On the ground however, the marginalized hungry or threatened person
> needs a rapid response.
> I reckon 'bottom-lateral-then-up' thinking would be easier to build
> for and do more good.
>

Yes, this seems to call for a whole different approach. Basically,
looking where there is need, and getting commitment of resources, and
coordinating the delivery of those resources. I have worked in the
past on projects that were getting cell phone minutes to people in
Africa who would otherwise be robbed if cash was wired to them by
relatives, for instance.

> Groundcrew is unique in that it has a trust mechanism built in that
> uncovers positive actors based upon participation and feedback.
> Ushahidi won't scale but has a lot going for it.
> Frontline SMS is another example of really effective platform being
> used to great effect.. mostly in the medical sector.

--
--
Sam Rose
Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samue...@gmail.com
http://futureforwardinstitute.com
http://forwardfound.org
http://hollymeadcapital.com
http://p2pfoundation.net
http://socialmediaclassroom.com

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan

[Venessa Miemis]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Robert Steele <robert.david...@gmail.com> wrote:

sort of.  needs to be in 183 languages, and organized by need and location.  here is a graphic

Graphic: Global Range of Nano-Needs

yeah, i've seen the graphic. i don't think it's very effective in communicating information.

effective visual communication is more than just groups of words with lines between them. it's a bit of an art.

what is it you're trying to say in the graphic?

can you walk me through a use case / scenario? 

[Poor Richard]

I'm trying a reply via email so I applogize if this goes to the wrong
thread.

Venessa & Robert

Craigs list, Free Cycle, and all micro needs-surpluses matching efforts
suffer to some degree from the problem I have with them: the effort and
cost of posting/searching listings and then making phone calls and car
trips for minor things. In my opinion, better to drop off all ones'
surplus and fill multiple needs in one stop without having to coordinate
meetings or conversations with other people -- around here we call it a
thrift store. The only thing our local thrift stores don't have (but
should) is a free department.

PR

[Venessa Miemis]

On Apr 18, 4:05 pm, Poor Richard <poor_rich...@att.net> wrote:
> I'm trying a reply via email so I applogize if this goes to the wrong
> thread.
>
> Venessa & Robert
>
> Craigs list, Free Cycle, and all micro needs-surpluses matching efforts
> suffer to some degree from the problem I have with them: the effort and
> cost of posting/searching listings and then making phone calls and car
> trips for minor things. In my opinion, better to drop off all ones'
> surplus and fill multiple needs in one stop without having to coordinate
> meetings or conversations with other people -- around here we call it a
> thrift store. The only thing our local thrift stores don't have (but
> should) is a free department.

yes, we have thrift stores here too - goodwill and salvation army and
the like. and i've used craigslist and freecycle to get/give things.

some people want value back for their surplus though. those are called
consignment shops.

either way, both require a third party for the transaction, and
require a physical location, and overhead costs to run the place and
pay personnel.

a p2p mobile network would take out that middleman.

[Poor Richard]

Accounting for true cost is essentially about including "externalities". I agree that it is essential for economic justice, sustainability, and sanity. An FTC, FCC, IRS, Dept of Commerce, etc. that really operated in the public interest would force companies to make some effort at true cost disclosure in their accounting and reporting requirements.

When it can take a fairly expensive research project to discover the true cost of a single product, compelling all companies to "disclose" may be the only solution.

Unfortunately, the only party who wants to know true cost is the hyper-responsible citizen. Most ordinary consumers don't want to know.

PR

[Venessa Miemis]

On Apr 18, 3:17 pm, Venessa Miemis <venessamie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 16, 8:53 pm, Robert Steele
>
> <robert.david.steele.vi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Graphic: Global Range of
> > Nano-Needs<http://www.phibetaiota.net/2011/04/2010/09/2008/08/graphic-global-ran...>

robert,

what do you know about WiserEarth / Natural Capital Institute? "the
social network for sustainability"

http://www.naturalcapital.org/wiserearth.htm

sounds like they have a massive database of organizations/projects/
scope of activities. seems that network would/should have an effective
way of sharing knowledge and resources and getting things done, no?

[Robert Steele]

yes, I know Paul Hawkin and Peggy Duvette, and admire what  they tried to do, but it never took off as an enabler that I know of.  They are featured in the collective intelligence book I published.

[Samuel Rose]

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Venessa Miemis <veness...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 18, 4:05 pm, Poor Richard <poor_rich...@att.net> wrote:
>> I'm trying a reply via email so I applogize if this goes to the wrong
>> thread.
>>
>> Venessa & Robert
>>
>> Craigs list, Free Cycle, and all micro needs-surpluses matching efforts
>> suffer to some degree from the problem I have with them: the effort and
>> cost of posting/searching listings and then making phone calls and car
>> trips for minor things. In my opinion, better to drop off all ones'
>> surplus and fill multiple needs in one stop without having to coordinate
>> meetings or conversations with other people -- around here we call it a
>> thrift store. The only thing our local thrift stores don't have (but
>> should) is a free department.
>

Seems like the posting of listings of things is at least a requirement
in order to create any kind of database. What could make that easier?

[Kaliya Hamlin]

On Apr 18, 2011, at 4:51 PM, Robert Steele wrote:

yes, I know Paul Hawkin and Peggy Duvette, and admire what  they tried to do,

They didn't listen to the advice we (Planetwork) gave them about distributed digital identity and people's empowerment along with giving organizations tools to connect to people with these kinds of "digital identity tools".

they also overbuilt their directory of organizaitons. 

they should have populated it with 1000 groups and then opened it up. Instead it was "done" when they opened it with 300,000 groups in it. Why edit that?

Groups had no ability to organize their members on the platform either.  (it shouldn't be a platform either :) - it should be a distributed network of tools for people and matching ones for orgs that do VRM (vendor relationship management) and CRM in a mutual way.) 

-Kaliya

Kaliya Hamlin -  Identity Woman 

Executive Director, Personal Data Ecosystem Consortium - http://www.personaldataecosystem.org

Leader,  Internet Identity Workshop  http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com

Identity Woman Blog - http://www.identitywoman.net

Twitter - @identitywoman

Skype - Identitywoman

Phone - 510 472-9069

IM Handles (best way to "talk" to me)

AIM/IChat:  kal...@mac.com

Yahoo!: earth...@yahoo.com

GTalk: identi...@gmail.com

MSN: identi...@hotmail.com

[Poor Richard]

A mobile network may take out the middle man for people who are on the phone and on the go all the time anyway, but it wouldn't help me at all. My point was that a third party and physical location actually serve my need and can be resource-efficient by aggregating multiple surplus-depositing and need-filling transactions. If a thrift store handled both donations and consignments, and had a free department, by covering all those bases they would be even more likely to help people save time and transportation costs. Where I see the digital element coming in is if the store put a digital snapshot with a few keywords online as items are received. I'm just highly skeptical of recovering my time, communication, and transportation costs in an individual person-to-person physical transaction for a single item unless its worth over $50. Something is not free if I have to spend two hours and drive 25 miles to get it. And I don't particularly relish "meeting" strangers that way, either.

Just sayin.

PR

[Poor Richard]

Wiserearth looks like it overlaps with social networking and database methodology we are discussing.

I signed up. They passed 50k members in March 2011 but blog activity is low and there is no update on site development since Jan 2011. Maybe the groups are more active. I haven't looked into that yet.

It seems like we could fold some of what we are talking about here into their database, especially info about Next Net people, organizations, issues, and events. I doubt that their database would handle much more of our needs without extending their data dictionary, table structures, and GUI considerably. It might be interesting to propose something to them if we had a better description/specification of what we wanted.

I only got as far as defining the first three fields in our fantasy database so far. I'm behind on the discussion so I don't know if there were any replies.

PR

[Poor Richard]

On 4/18/2011 3:58 PM, Kaliya Hamlin wrote:
> (it shouldn't be a platform either :) - it should be a distributed
> network of tools for people and matching ones for orgs that do VRM
> (vendor relationship management) and CRM in a mutual way.)

Kaliya,

Although the distributed p2p YaCy search engine can do a pretty good job
of search (with many independent crawlers working 24/7, and only a
compressed index residing on each node), a large database application is
very difficult to do in a p2p fashion with fully independent peers. It
is difficult to get good database performance on a pc-class server at
all. Concurrency control (record locking, etc.) and forcing integrity
over a network would be a nightmare, not to mention the amount of
storage each node would need to mirror the database and indexes. At the
very least, I would think the nodes would have to be dedicated servers
with high-speed internet connections, and there might need to be one or
more "master nodes" for resolving integrity issues.

If I'm wrong, and these problems have been solved, I hope to be corrected.

PR

[Jon Lebkowsky]

Like Kaliya, I talked to the Wiser Earth folks (via my role at Worldchanging). They weren't engaging users, weren't sure why, but weren't open to advice. I had the sense that they weren't very collaborative - though this is from brief conversations some time ago.

~ Jon

--
Jon Lebkowsky (@jonl)
Internet Expert and Strategist

Honcho, Polycot Associates, LLC

Work |  Twitter | LinkedIn | Facebook | Wikipedia | Blog

[Kaliya]

Kaliya

www.identitywoman.net

On Apr 18, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Poor Richard <poor.r...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wiserearth looks like it overlaps with social networking and database methodology we are discussing.

I signed up. They passed 50k members in March 2011

A joke.

How many people are members of enviro and social change groups around world - millions!

[Charles N Wyble]

On 4/18/2011 11:00 PM, Poor Richard wrote:
> On 4/18/2011 3:58 PM, Kaliya Hamlin wrote:
>> (it shouldn't be a platform either :) - it should be a distributed
>> network of tools for people and matching ones for orgs that do VRM
>> (vendor relationship management) and CRM in a mutual way.)
> Kaliya,
>
>

> If I'm wrong, and these problems have been solved, I hope to be corrected.

Couchdb. NoSQL movement. MUMPS/Vista.

[Poor Richard]

Wikipedia: "CouchDB was designed with bi-direction replication (or synchronization) and off-line operation in mind. That means multiple replicas can have their own copies of the same data, modify it, and then sync those changes at a later time. The biggest gotcha typically associated with this level of flexibility is conflicts."

Just what I said. It can work at some scale. But as data volume, number of nodes, and volume of distributed commits increase, it goes haywire. Even though that's exactly what it is designed for, it will hit the wall pretty quick. Like I also said, its hard enough to run a big database (I mean the data and transaction volume, not the engine) on a pc at all, much less keep it in sync with 10,000 or 100,000 other copies in homes and offices around the world.

I have found no significant solutions to the basic problem of scalable integrity of distributed stores in any NoSQL description. Stores can be distributed over server farms, yes, but with relatively high stability of connections, configurations, and node availability.

PR

[Wibowo Sulistio]

Hi everyone,

This is Bowo from WiserEarth. Jumping in after Suresh forwarded me
this thread :-)

First of all, I need to do more reading on the topic of this thread:
"world brain and global game"... and I haven't read through this whole
thread. So, will just respond to some points related to WiserEarth for
now.

>> Robert said: "yes, I know Paul Hawkin and Peggy Duvette, and admire what they tried to do, but it never took off as an enabler that I know of. They are featured

in the collective intelligence book I published. "

Fair enough. But you know... working for WiserEarth, I prefer to say
"it hasn't took off yet"... we're taking a hard look at why it
hasn't... http://www.wiserearth.org/article/WiserEarth_Goals_2011
...and it'll be wonderful to get some more feedback.

>> Kaliya said: "They didn't listen to the advice we (Planetwork) gave them about

distributed digital identity and people's empowerment along with
giving organizations tools to connect to people with these kinds of
"digital identity tools"."

We're not there yet. Sounds like a good idea though. Need to do some
more reading on that.

>> Kaliya said: they also overbuilt their directory of organizaitons... they should have populated it with 1000 groups and then opened it up. Instead it was "done" when they opened it with 300,000 groups in it. Why edit that?

Well... we make mistakes. I guess it's sort of a chicken and egg
kind-of-thing... and we decided to go with the egg. Probably not the
best kind of decision, but FYI, the directory is still growing by the
day... albeit slowly. We also do annual directory update campaign, and
organization representatives (some of them) are coming back to update
their listing.

>> Kaliya said: Groups had no ability to organize their members on the platform
either. (it shouldn't be a platform either :) - it should be a

distributed network of tools for people and matching ones for orgs
that do VRM (vendor relationship management) and CRM in a mutual way.)

Not sure what you meant by "no ability to organize their members"...
here's an overview of the current groupware:
http://www.wiserearth.org/article/wiserearthgroups
VRM and CRM sounds like a whole different ball game though :-)

>> Poor Richard said: "I signed up. They passed 50k members in March 2011 but blog activity is low and there is no update on site development since Jan 2011. Maybe the groups are more active. I haven't looked into that yet. "

Tech development is ongoing. Have a look at the latest at
http://www.wiserearth.org/group/WEtech In the coming month, we'll have
status update and newsfeed a la facebook... brewed with some
WE-specific features. v1 of it is already live on the site.

>> Poor Richard said: "...It might be interesting to propose

something to them if we had a better description/specification of what we
wanted. "

Talk to me some more on that. Not sure we have the technical capacity
to handle it anytime soon though... email me at bo...@wiserearth.org
... meanwhile, we do have an API that you can use (read only, write at
request): http://www.wiserearth.org/group/API

>> Jon Lebkowsky said: "Like Kaliya, I talked to the Wiser Earth folks (via my role at

Worldchanging). They weren't engaging users, weren't sure why, but weren't
open to advice. I had the sense that they weren't very collaborative -
though this is from brief conversations some time ago. "

Not sure who you talked to in WiserEarth, on what, and when... good to
know nevertheless... :-) ... and do clarify here if you want.

>> Kaliya said in response to : " Wiserearth looks like it overlaps with social networking and database methodology we are discussing. I signed up. They passed 50k members in March 2011" --> "A joke... How many people are members of enviro and social change groups around world - millions! "

Fair enough :-)
We're not planning to stop at 50k though... :-)

We've secured funding to keep the platform alive for the next 5 years:
http://blog.wiserearth.org/fundraising-reflections/
... and hope to secure another 5 years of funding at the end of this year.

More on our plans this year:
http://www.wiserearth.org/article/WiserEarth_Goals_2011

Hope that clarifies things a bit.
Feel free to shoot additional question here or directly at bo...@wiserearth.org

Thanks for listening :-)

Bowo
Online Community Manager at WiserEarth.org
http://www.wiserearth.org/user/bowo
bo...@wiserearth.org

More about WiserEarth:
http://www.wiserearth.org/article/about

[Poor Richard]

Thanks for the update, Bowo. That helps me a lot and I'll respond in a day or two once I've read and thought a little more about your 2011 plan. ~PR

[Charles N Wyble]

On 04/18/2011 11:55 PM, Poor Richard wrote:

Wikipedia: "CouchDB was designed with bi-direction replication (or synchronization) and off-line operation in mind. That means multiple replicas can have their own copies of the same data, modify it, and then sync those changes at a later time. The biggest gotcha typically associated with this level of flexibility is conflicts."

I have a very good friend who is working on the conflict problem. They should be testing a solution very soon. I consider the "conflict" threat a non issue, based on my colleagues analysis of the problem space and his ability to defend my vigorous attacks against his ideas. I play devils advocate quite a bit. :)

Also look at things like Hadoop for very large scale data analysis.  Also lookup eventual consistency.

These systems are designed to have failures all of the time and gracefully recover and sync data master to master etc.

Just what I said. It can work at some scale. But as data volume, number of nodes, and volume of distributed commits increase, it goes haywire.

Citation needed. Give me examples of scale limits that you have seen. Why does it go haywire at scale?

You want to get really really really rich? I mean insanely, filthy rich? (Mostly) solve the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAP_theorem Then watch AT&T/Verizon/Google/Facebook destroy each other in a bidding war for your solution. :) Then maybe you give it away for free. Maybe you license it. Who knows. Have I solved it? Has my buddy? Maybe. Couchdb gets really really really close. A few tweaks and the conflict problem can go away. Then you have a pretty complete solution. That's the way I see it anyway.

Even though that's exactly what it is designed for, it will hit the wall pretty quick. Like I also said, its hard enough to run a big database (I mean the data and transaction volume, not the engine) on a pc at all, much less keep it in sync with 10,000 or 100,000 other copies in homes and offices around the world.

Phone company does this all the time. So does the cable company. Thousands of points of presence. All sorts of synchronization requirements. Billing, call detail record settlement etc. That's why ERLANG was created.

I have found no significant solutions to the basic problem of scalable integrity of distributed stores in any NoSQL description. Stores can be distributed over server farms, yes, but with relatively high stability of connections, configurations, and node availability.

Hmmm. Really? You sure about that? So everything has to be LAN local or over a really fast, low latency WAN? *canary eating grin* *whistles and walks along with hands in pocket* :)

Oh things are about to get a lot more fun once we have a few thousand distributed nodes up and running.

-- 
Charles N Wyble cha...@knownelement.com @charlesnw
http://blog.knownelement.com
Building tomorrows alternate default free zone

[Charles N Wyble]

On 04/18/2011 11:00 PM, Poor Richard wrote:
> On 4/18/2011 3:58 PM, Kaliya Hamlin wrote:
> Kaliya,
>
> Although the distributed p2p YaCy search engine can do a pretty good job
> of search (with many independent crawlers working 24/7, and only a
> compressed index residing on each node),

Yeah I have Yacy running. Need to play with it some more.

> a large database application is
> very difficult to do in a p2p fashion with fully independent peers. It
> is difficult to get good database performance on a pc-class server at
> all.

Hadoop + hbase does it quite well. Many 10k+ hadoop clusters
out there. I built a 500 node hadoop cluster once. Was fun.

> Concurrency control (record locking, etc.) and forcing integrity
> over a network would be a nightmare,

Throw it all out. Use hadoop + hbase.

> not to mention the amount of
> storage each node would need to mirror the database and indexes.

Nope. Just the portion it needs to know about. Small amount
of centralized nodes to know where things are located.

> At the
> very least, I would think the nodes would have to be dedicated servers
> with high-speed internet connections, and there might need to be one or
> more "master nodes" for resolving integrity issues.

I should do some experiments with Hadoop over consumer WAN
connections, once we have a few thousand nodes in a distributed
setup.

If someone throws me 10k I'll get the FreedomBoxes setup and
distributed. Of course I would have the image finished before this
for people to setup their own test labs. Perhaps we could have
http://labs.ripe.net/Members/dfk/active_measurements/hosting-a-probe-for-active-measurements/?searchterm=None
help with the administration of the program?

Yes I've designed, built, deployed and defended multiple nation wide
content delivery systems for brands you have most certainly heard of.
Some of them used heavily centralized approaches, others massively
distributed. Each with pros/cons. Whee!!!

> If I'm wrong, and these problems have been solved, I hope to be corrected.

You aren't wrong. Just looking at the problem space from one particular
perspective.

[HTS]

Interesting range of conversation...

Am i still assuming the conversation is talking about how to build a
global game, which interfaces with the real world, to empower people
to integrate on and offline together, re-patterning how we exchange
information and value in our world?

Our team was working with Edwin Loo to build just this, but it didn't
come from a 'trying to solve every problem in the world' perspective'

I believe when you come at it from this angel, you actually get
steeped in so much detail, that people will not actually have fun
playing it..

You have to be much sneakier. Think about the engaging elements first,
make the game as addictive as World Of Warcraft, create a new fantasy
land with Avatars, and integrate people together through the
technology.

Our USP's were

New Time Calender
New Open Money Exchange
New Knowledge Economy

And an intelligent system for getting people to do 'missions' in the
offline world, which translated into feedback and points in the online
world, which were part of larger exchange mechanism and network.
Fundamentally, we are patterned inside of a matrix of Time and Value,
held together by the codification of our collective cultural
consciousness (law)...

99% of people do not understand how any of these systems work to a
sufficient enough degree to change them.

All that is needed is for people to play a new game..

> for people to setup their own test labs. Perhaps we could havehttp://labs.ripe.net/Members/dfk/active_measurements/hosting-a-probe-...

> help with the administration of the program?
>
> Yes I've designed, built, deployed and defended multiple nation wide
> content delivery systems for brands you have most certainly heard of.
> Some of them used heavily centralized approaches, others massively
> distributed. Each with pros/cons. Whee!!!
>
> > If I'm wrong, and these problems have been solved, I hope to be corrected.
>
> You aren't wrong. Just looking at the problem space from one particular
> perspective.
>

> Charles N Wyble char...@knownelement.com @charlesnwhttp://blog.knownelement.com

> Building tomorrows alternate default free zone
>

>  signature.asc
> < 1KViewDownload

[Robert Steele]

URLS?

[Isaac Wilder]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello All,

I am working with a lawyer to draft by-laws for a new non-profit, and
I thought that I might get all of your feedback. I've attached a draft
as plain text. Please let me know what you think. It's pretty
standard, dry, stuff, though I've tried to incorporated 'rough
consensus' as a governing principle wherever possible. I'm
particularly interested in how this principle can be better
incorporated into the governance structure of the entity. Right now
it's basically defined as two-thirds majority of the directors, with a
caveat that the directors should probably amend that with a more
robust definition as soon as possible.

Also, please let me know if you are interested in serving on the
board, becoming a member, or otherwise supporting such a foundation.
PR, I know you're down.

I'm about to sink all the money I saved for college into this, so
definitely holler if you think I'm making a big mistake. I don't think
so, but I value all perspectives.

Okay,
take care,

imw
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[Robert Steele]

BIG MISTAKE.   Don't need a non-profit.  Just do it.  There are plenty of non-profits, including Earth Intelligence Network (took almost two years to get certified) that can be used if and when serious money starts to move.  Indeed, EIN, which has been inactive, is about to open discussions with some donors on creating a "liberation technology" menu that can be translated into multiple languages and put out there--including open satellite lines that will accept calls from cell phones using the $169 adapters, quite a few other things.

[Robert Steele]

PS Don't waste money on college either, learn what you need to learn, prove mastery by doing it, college is a massive rip off, a worse bubble than housing.

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Isaac Wilder <is...@freenetworkmovement.org> wrote:

[Isaac Wilder]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Well, I definitely agree with the second of your two emails.
I'm out of here in four weeks, and I can't wait. Then it's Free Net
time for REAL.

As far as whether or not to start a non-profit, I wonder if you
wouldn't mind elaborating on why you think it's a big mistake. You
mention your non-profit and the things that it is doing as reasons not
to create a new one, but I don't quite understand that. It seems like
EIN and FNF would have very different missions.

I don't want to solicit donations as an individual, and I don't want
to solicit donations that will go to organizations that seem
well-intentioned, but that I have no way of vetting and verifying.
Wouldn't it be best for us all to be firing on all cylinders? Doesn't
that mean having a legal entity through which to work? I was going to
get funding from my college to work for Kosta at ahumanright.org, but
the school took my fellowship away when they found out that I'm
dropping out. Starting an organization seems like my only move.

I appreciate your advice.


take care, always,
imw

On 04/20/2011 09:13 PM, Robert Steele wrote:

> PS Don't waste money on college either, learn what you need to
> learn, prove mastery by doing it, college is a massive rip off, a
> worse bubble than housing.
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Isaac Wilder
> <is...@freenetworkmovement.org

> <mailto:is...@freenetworkmovement.org>> wrote:
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> I am working with a lawyer to draft by-laws for a new non-profit,
> and I thought that I might get all of your feedback. I've attached
> a draft as plain text. Please let me know what you think. It's
> pretty standard, dry, stuff, though I've tried to incorporated
> 'rough consensus' as a governing principle wherever possible. I'm
> particularly interested in how this principle can be better
> incorporated into the governance structure of the entity. Right
> now it's basically defined as two-thirds majority of the
> directors, with a caveat that the directors should probably amend
> that with a more robust definition as soon as possible.
>
> Also, please let me know if you are interested in serving on the
> board, becoming a member, or otherwise supporting such a
> foundation. PR, I know you're down.
>
> I'm about to sink all the money I saved for college into this, so
> definitely holler if you think I'm making a big mistake. I don't
> think so, but I value all perspectives.
>
>
>
> Okay, take care,
>
> imw

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[Venessa Miemis]

hi isaac,

i'm really inspired by your enthusiasm and desire to get on the ground and change the world. i know exactly how that feels. did you have an experience that gave you that a-ha moment, where you realized the potential here? or was it a slow realization? mine was like an explosion in my head, to the point where the people around me were concerned for my mental well-being. i saw the vision of how it could manifest and i wanted to dedicate my life to it.

this was only about a year ago, mind you, so i'm not talking about ancient history. 

in the past 6-12 months, i've been researching and exploring to see who is out there that cares about this too..... where are the siloed communities that should connect and collaborate so we can all achieve this larger vision. 

and the more i investigate, the more i find stakeholders and people who really understand this stuff and are working on it are already out there. and this isn't just about internet infrastructure at a physical level. yes it's about hardware, but it's also about transitioning into a model where individuals have access to the commons, and they have ownership over their digital identities and personal data, instead of governments or corporations. and this isn't just an ideological abstract thing. this is something that already right now is affecting our lives. at this very moment. 3rd parties have a wealth of data that they aggregate about us and use to construct digital representations of us that impact our ability to access opportunity in our society. so things like credit scores, medical insurance rates, and even ability to get a free upgrade to a better hotel room, are all being assessed about us right now based on information about us like purchasing history or preferences that's out there that we can't see nor access.

and if you want to talk about other evolutions that the physical infrastructure would enable, like complementary currencies for example - those will still require an identifier in order for us to transact. so we're back to how identity is understood. and we want to be able to efficiently allocate resources within close trust networks, neighborhoods, cities, and even regions. this also requires us to understand both our assets and ourselves.

the point of this diatribe is that what you are excited about is actually an infinitely more complex issue than initially imagined. these things are all interrelated, and if a vision is to have a free global communication network without regulation or interference, that has massive implications for how humanity on a global scale operates. it could disrupt areas that are not equipped with alternative infrastructures and backup plans, leading not to liberation but to collapse. there are many extremely fragile economies on the planet. 

i think to be able to really tackle this doesn't require the creation of another nonprofit organization. there are truly quite a few of them filled with fantastic people who 'get it' and care. i think many of the pieces are already out there - what's missing is the connective tissue to join them. how to we organize the many excellent efforts that already exist, in order to gain momentum and really tip the balance?

you do what you want, and again, i know what it feels like to want to put a stake in the ground. but also put in the due diligence to understand the larger landscape and who is already involved in this shift. when you have a more complete map of the ecosystem, then decide where you think your efforts would be best directed. maybe you'd find you could be more effective in a role different than what you are imagining now. 

or not.

there's this great quote.. i think it's attributed to isaac newton - 'if i have seen further, it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants.'

 

so just check out what's already being done in these areas, so you don't have to waste your time and efforts and enthusiasm repeating them. build on them.

- v

[Isaac Wilder]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Venessa,

You're right.
I've been convinced that planting a flag is not the right thing to do.

I do still think that it's important to hammer down the meaning of
consensus, though. I think that we're going to have to do that.

I've been trying to figure out a problem statement, and to me it seems
like this: build a thing that is owned by everyone, and used by
everyone - ubiquitious global sensors that draw power from their
environs and play host to a distributed data store and data network.
Use this mesh network of nodal transceivers to have a conversation in
cyberspace :: the main thing now is to get as many people as possible
involved in the conversation. The topic of conversation could be: "We
just pile things up: is this a good idea?"


I'll write more when I get a better bearing on my trajectory.
I mean.... like..... tomorrow.


And Robert, thanks for looking out. I almost made a big mistake.



take care,
imw

> <mailto:is...@freenetworkmovement.org>> wrote:
>
>
> Well, I definitely agree with the second of your two emails. I'm
> out of here in four weeks, and I can't wait. Then it's Free Net
> time for REAL.
>
> As far as whether or not to start a non-profit, I wonder if you
> wouldn't mind elaborating on why you think it's a big mistake. You
> mention your non-profit and the things that it is doing as
> reasons not to create a new one, but I don't quite understand that.
> It seems like EIN and FNF would have very different missions.
>
> I don't want to solicit donations as an individual, and I don't
> want to solicit donations that will go to organizations that seem
> well-intentioned, but that I have no way of vetting and verifying.
> Wouldn't it be best for us all to be firing on all cylinders?
> Doesn't that mean having a legal entity through which to work? I
> was going to get funding from my college to work for Kosta at

> ahumanright.org <http://ahumanright.org>, but the school took my

> fellowship away when they found out that I'm dropping out.
> Starting an organization seems like my only move.
>
> I appreciate your advice.
>
>
> take care, always, imw
>
>
>
> On 04/20/2011 09:13 PM, Robert Steele wrote:
>> PS Don't waste money on
> college either, learn what you need to
>
>> learn, prove mastery by doing it, college is a massive rip
> off, a
>
>> worse bubble than housing.
>
>
>
>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Isaac Wilder
>
>> <is...@freenetworkmovement.org
> <mailto:is...@freenetworkmovement.org>
>

>> <mailto:is...@freenetworkmovement.org>

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[Charles N Wyble]

On 04/20/2011 08:55 PM, Isaac Wilder wrote:
>

Hello All,

I am working with a lawyer to draft by-laws for a new non-profit, and
I thought that I might get all of your feedback.

Excellent. Thank you for sharing this with the list.  Glad to see the rubber meeting the road and an entity being formed. Very exciting.

I've attached a draft
as plain text.

Can you put this in a git repo (or whatever source control system you prefer)? Would be useful to have it in source control to track changes. Open governance/social enterprise and all that. When I was doing consulting etc, I kept all my documents in source control. Immensely useful

Please let me know what you think. It's pretty
standard, dry, stuff, though I've tried to incorporated 'rough
consensus' as a governing principle wherever possible. I'm
particularly interested in how this principle can be better
incorporated into the governance structure of the entity. Right now
it's basically defined as two-thirds majority of the directors, with a
caveat that the directors should probably amend that with a more
robust definition as soon as possible.

I'll let others comment on this aspect.

Also, please let me know if you are interested in serving on the
board, becoming a member, or otherwise supporting such a foundation.
PR, I know you're down.

I would be more then happy to provide my extensive technical expertise to the board of directors if you all want it. In particular where it relates to acquiring IP space/AS numbers and all the elements that go with that (ROA, IRR etc). I'm very interested in building an operations (certain aspects of monitoring/reporting etc)  and business support system in an open manner. To let people get an up close and personal look at how bit moving happens and understand the decision processes to support a large scale backbone network. I honestly have no idea how to build such a network, but together we will figure it out. 

It's my understanding that the FNF will steward implementation of the decentralized internet roadmap that you posted to the list? The 5 phase plan? As you know I'm in  extreme agreement with the overwhelming majority of that roadmap, with the (possible) exception of having our own physical backbone. That however is an implementation detail  and I really just want to explore what that looks like, how it gets built, who stewards it etc, before I make up my mind on it. :) It was a little "hand wavy" for me.

 I'm about to sink all the money I saved for college into this, so
definitely holler if you think I'm making a big mistake. I don't think
so, but I value all perspectives.

I think it might be wise to have both a non profit and for profit. For profit is super easy to form up, non profit is harder from what I understand. They both play necessary roles.

As for sinking all your money/time into this, that's a big commitment. To provide feedback on if it's a sub optimal decision or not, I would want to see your business plan and (potential) donor makeup and what the value proposition/prospectus is for donors.

That's all for now.

It can't hurt to spend some time and a bit of cash on getting a non profit setup and start collecting some donations. It's good to have some cash to be able to pay experts for their time, or handle administrative fees (ARIN fees for IP space). Also you probably want to engage some CCIE types to help with numbering plans etc etc etc.

Ah heck. I'll serve on the board. It would give me a title/position to attach to all the e-mails I"m writing anyway!  LOL! :) 

What does your management team look like? What roles do you see being vital to the success of the FNF? What kind of profile will each of those people
need to fit into? It's key to recruit based on this profile, and not on your social network connections. I know everyone says to recruit from your network. For individual contributors and middle management in an established company that's fine. You have all sorts of mitigations in place to handle risk that arises from this practice. However in a startup this will destroy you. Define your profile. Recruit against it. This will drive success more then ANY OTHER FACTOR!

I spent a few hundred hours in 2008/2009 driving product management life cycle discussions. Everything from product development, marketing, exit. Dozens and dozens of ideas were discussed to mitigate the risk from the financial crisis. All sorts of things related to scrip, p2p, neighborhood revitalization etc. So I have done this boot strapping,planning, go/no go to development team many times. Out of all that effort only a couple things made it to development time and none of them made it past initial complexity analysis and information architecture work.

(Course I'm only 26 years old and have exited exactly one startup successfully, and that was.... 10 years ago (yes at 16yo). So what do I know? :)


--

Charles N Wyble cha...@knownelement.com @charlesnw

[Charles N Wyble]

On 04/20/2011 10:54 PM, Venessa Miemis wrote:
> hi isaac,

> in the past 6-12 months, i've been researching and exploring to see who is out there that cares about this too..... where are the siloed communities that should connect and collaborate so we can all achieve this larger vision.

In your research have you come across any group that can steward a new/open/decentralized internet? With all of the complexities that requires?

<huge giant snip>

I agree with everything you wrote in that trimmed portion. Completely. Excellent job of showing the vast size of the space and the various layers and the interdependence between them. :)

> i think to be able to really tackle this doesn't require the creation of another nonprofit organization.

The network underlies absolutely everything else A network with the ability to support a user base that can have a strong sense of privacy as well as verification
of identity for the times that is needed. Without a commons owned network, these efforts will all be vulnerable to crippling attacks by those who control the network. The shift to user centric identity, p2p currency etc is happening rapidly. You and others have worked tirelessly to make it happen even faster by striving to reduce duplication, make incredibly important connections between people/projects/ideas etc. This will all be for naught if we don't have a network infrastructure in place to sustain all of the efforts.

 
As such I feel that we do need an organization which can design, build, deploy and defend that network on a global scale. No existing network operations organization will do this. It helps to have an entity for people to rally around and donate to. The governance/decision making processes and day to day network operation (at the "core" / regional portions) can be done in an open and transparent fashion.


If an existing organization can fulfill this role then I would love to connect with them, advise them etc.

there are truly quite a few of them filled with fantastic people who 'get it' and care.

I agree. I've learned about a number of them on this list.

i think many of the pieces are already out there -

For sure. You have been doing an amazing job on making that accessible for all of us.

what's missing is the connective tissue to join them. how to we organize the many excellent efforts that already exist, in order to gain momentum and really tip the balance?

The connective tissue is the network. An open, scalable, decentralized, distributed commons owned network. All of the existing efforts can ride on this network
with complete peace of mind. That will lead to amazing things.

>
> there's this great quote.. i think it's attributed to isaac newton - 'if i have seen further, it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants.'

Indeed.

>
> so just check out what's already being done in these areas, so you don't have to waste your time and efforts and enthusiasm repeating them. build on them.

Great advice.

My opinion is that it's not a waste of time, if the mission of the FNF is what I have been discussing in this thread (stewarding implementation of the five phase
roadmap).


--

Charles N Wyble cha...@knownelement.com @charlesnw

[Venessa Miemis]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:58 AM, Charles N Wyble <cha...@knownelement.com> wrote:

In your research have you come across any group that can steward a new/open/decentralized internet? With all of the complexities that requires?

i suppose not, but that doesn't mean it's not out there. maybe i just haven't come across it yet.... either way, as you mentioned in the other response, it'll be important to assemble a good diverse team who understand various aspects of this challenge and with experience in navigating the system.

 

[Devin Balkind]

I'll dip into this conversation briefly.

The Sarapis Foundation is submitting our nonprofit app in the next 2 weeks.  We've had a (free) lawyer with lots of 501c3 experience look it over so we should get accepted the first time, but we know that won't happen for 6-9months.  We can collect money as soon as we file and would be happy to take you under our wing, create a virtual org within the org, and help you manage the back office stuff.   That being said, we'd also be happy to see another 501c3 with a shared mission pop up.  That gives us all more bandwidth to get great projects into tax-free status. 

My suggestion is as follows: 

Register as a nonprofit with your state.  This is quite easy and provides you the structure you need to collect money (taxed,) get fiscally sponsored/contracted (possibly tax-free), and apply for 501c3 status. If you're got the free time and money to go for 501.c.3 do it, but realize its not essential.  You should do it because you want to have a status in the longer term that can help the movement, not because you need it to get your project done.  If getting your network up ASAP is your interest, then do that with a state registered org.

In the future, I want Sarapis to provide sponsorships to any (reasonable) open source project that asks for support and we hope other organizations emerge to do that task as well.

Isaac, hit me up on list or off if you wanna discuss how we could help you create a channel for tax-free donations.

--
Devin Balkind
@devinbalkind
vitamindwb.com

[Robert Steele]

EIN is also available.  It has been moribund since the crash killed my for profit and I had to stop the angel phase.  Right now talking to two funding angels who think that liberation technology is hot and they are ready to pay to put together the menu and the services of common concern for the top dissident groups (there are 44 dictators, 42 of them best pals of the US Government, so this is NOT going to be done by the government).

My long run interest is to create the Open Source Agency that kindred spirits got on pages 23 and 423 of the 9-11 Commission, we have an OMB staff concurrence on a first year of $125M going toward Full Operating Capability at $3 billion a year, but Hillary Clinton has to a) ask for it, and b) insist that it be a sister agency to the  BBG under diplomatic auspices, not under CIA which screws up wet dreams but gets away with it because secrecy is a marvelous protection against being held accountable for anything.

The agency mission would be to nurture the Open Tri-Fecta, open spectrum, open source software, and open source intelligence (public intelligence in the public interest).  The secret world has fought me on this tooth and nail since I started this fight in 1988 because they understand that the minute OSA reaches FOC, their $80 billion a year corporate vapor ware budget and the $900 billion US military heavy metal military that does not work and is not needed start to crash.  Then we clean up health, energy, and transportation.

So this is a long-term fight.  EIN is open for earmarked funding with a 5% overhead fee, open books all the way. 

[rushkoff]

I agree with both of Venessa's posts.
And I'm wondering exactly what sort of collaborative makes things like
this happen.

Industry sets standards through collaborations,too, such as html5 or
even when they agree to a standard like USB. A sense of a governing
body or some entity that administrates the many nodes and helps foster
compatibility. Maybe if enough of us sign onto something, that becomes
the de facto body.

On Apr 21, 8:10 am, Venessa Miemis <venessamie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:58 AM, Charles N Wyble

> <char...@knownelement.com>wrote:

[Samuel Rose]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 9:20 PM, rushkoff <rush...@rushkoff.com> wrote:
> I agree with both of Venessa's posts.
> And I'm wondering exactly what sort of collaborative makes things like
> this happen.
>
> Industry sets standards through collaborations,too, such as html5 or
> even when they agree to a standard like USB. A sense of a governing
> body or some entity that administrates the many nodes and helps foster
> compatibility. Maybe if enough of us sign onto something, that becomes
> the de facto body.
>

Along these lines, we're still proposing this framework:

http://blog.futureforwardinstitute.com/2011/04/01/a-nextnet-proof-of-concept

Although this is a proof of concept, it's also a set of guiding
principles for many machines, many resources, many protocols. This
minimal test case is also a scalable. We can build an RFC around this
minimal test case, and one could write utilities in most programming
languages that could accomplish the checking and switching proposed
here.

>
> On Apr 21, 8:10 am, Venessa Miemis <venessamie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:58 AM, Charles N Wyble
>> <char...@knownelement.com>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > In your research have you come across any group that can steward a
>> > new/open/decentralized internet? With all of the complexities that requires?
>>
>> > i suppose not, but that doesn't mean it's not out there. maybe i just
>>
>> haven't come across it yet.... either way, as you mentioned in the other
>> response, it'll be important to assemble a good diverse team who understand
>> various aspects of this challenge and with experience in navigating the
>> system.

--
--
Sam Rose
Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samue...@gmail.com
http://futureforwardinstitute.com
http://forwardfound.org
http://hollymeadcapital.com
http://p2pfoundation.net
http://socialmediaclassroom.com

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan

[Michel Bauwens]

Hi Isaac,

Once you get funding, issues of trust become very important, and despite people's best intentions, things tend to go awry.

So, I would indeed urge you to plant a flag, and create a dedicated non-profit to nurture and protect the infrastructure needed to be successfull in your project.

Venessa's more global and interconnected ambitions, could need its own dedicated infrastructure, which could be dedicated specifically to interconnecting projects on a global scale, a kind of association of associations, which would be of service to the community of communities and foundations/non-profits dedicated to creating autonomous infrastructures,

Michel

--
P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens

[Isaac Wilder]

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On 04/21/2011 07:10 AM, Venessa Miemis wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:58 AM, Charles N Wyble

> <cha...@knownelement.com <mailto:cha...@knownelement.com>>

My brain has been on overdrive for the last couple of days, thinking
about my next step, thinking about the ethics of all this,  about how
to realize the dream. It is stressful to know that you've come to a
crossroads.

I haven't come to a conclusion yet, though I wish I could say that I
have. I want to ask some more questions before I take any action. In
particular, I want to ask Venessa what she sees as an alternative next
step to starting a non-profit. I've got to figure out some way to live
and eat and stuff. This is all very scary, and very exhilarating, and
very exciting in some ways, but at the end of the day, I have to be
real. I've got to find some way of supporting myself while I work
towards our common vision. If anybody has any ideas in this regard,
let me know. I can cook, code, write, speak, and build with the best
of them. The problem is, I don't want to use up all of my time and
energy seeking sustenance. I suppose this is an age old problem.

I know that I can make a difference, I just have to figure out how. I
was thinking that I could start an organization, do a kick-starter,
and that that might allow me to put all of my weight behind this.  I
hope there is another way. I think that the longer we can abstain from
flag-hoisting, stake-driving, and other vaguely colonialist ventures,
the better. Maybe the key is not to seperate ourselves out into
distinct organizations, but to wait, be patient, and come together as
a unified organism.

Venessa, you asked me if there was any particular moment when it all
came together for me. The answer is yes. I travelled to Havana, Cuba
this past summer with three of my closest friends from school. They
studied at the university there, but I chose to stay at our guest
house and see if I couldn't write my first novel. It took me just over
two weeks, and what came out is a story called 'Malady.' It is the
story of the global MIND, a vision of how it might come to be, and the
seed of the Free Network Movement. That's when it all clicked for me,
and I've been working pretty feverishly ever since. I have alienated
some of my friends, and inspired others. I've built an organization
here at my school, but I feel stifled and constrained by this
environment. I haven't had time to pick Malady back up since the
summer, and I know that it needs much work. I think that it could help
spread the message, our message, this message. I was thinking that
maybe I could be a messenger, too.


This brings me back to the point: Free Network Foundation, trying to
find patrons, trying to get money to do the good work that needs to be
done. Ultimately, I need to find a way to support myself while I work
on Malady. I know that, realistically, I will probably just have to
get another kitchen job and write in what time I can make for myself.
It is only my sense of urgency that motivates me to seek some
alternate path - one where I could set concertedly about the task of
telling people what is coming. Perhaps that path will yet emerge.


I'm going to take what seems like sage advice, and hold off on
incorporating the FNF, at least until May. It is always good to
re-evaluate. In the meantime, I am getting better at Ruby-on-Rails
every day, and would like to help build a system for collaboration and
conversation. (Again... what exactly is consensus?)

Thanks for helping me through all this. I trust you all, though I have
not met you, and feel bound to you in some certain way. As has been
said before: We're in this thing together.

Speaking of which, I'm going to share this poem, if y'all don't mind.
I hope it's not too mooshy.
Poem follows.


Take Care,
imw







*Towards Glory*
by Isaac Wilder
January 2011

It is not easy to do what is right -


yet perhaps if we let love sustain us,

fulfil us,

and move us towards glory,


we could learn to listen to our humanity,

and not to our human.


We are in this thing together,

this thing,

whatever this thing is -

it is what it is,

and we are in it together,

until the bitter end.


Love is what moves us and makes us

love is the god-light, singing and shining

love is the one true writ



love is actually the best translation of the word god,

for it and the glory are one in the same,


we've just got to let it guide us.

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[Sepp Hasslberger]

On Apr 22, 2011, at 6:19 AM, Isaac Wilder wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Isaac, 

you said it - we're in this thing together. 

What we are [about to be] doing here in the Rome area in Italy is, to bring people together around the idea of constructing their own local network and linking up with each other. 

The legal form will be what is called a cooperative. That is a business venture, owned by a number of people, and in our case it will be all those who wish to be part of the network. Perhaps there is a form of company in the US legal system that can serve in this way. It isn't a non-profit. We're not about trying to avoid taxes. We're just not going to have a lot of profit to distribute. 

The idea of a cooperative is a business owned by (mainly) those who profit from what the business does. 

We are lucky to have a technical person (actually a couple) who have been into networks as a for-profit venture, and who will serve as the tech persons - planning the network and installing the nodes, running the network as an internet service provider would, but with the understanding that they provide the technical service for the cooperative. They are like an outside company hired by the cooperative who takes care of all the technical stuff, the network design and construction, the leasing of a high bandwidth internet connection for the network, and all the legal stuff needed for running a network. 

If you can separate yourself from the actual cooperative, the company, I could see a role for you as the technical person doing all that work, paid for by a cooperative of users who decide to form their own corporation. It's a bit tricky to conceive at first, because there are some separate functions. 

Right now you imagine yourself as the one who does it all. What you need is a number of people who will promote the corporation as a cooperative venture. You can help them in this, but it is not your principal function. 

Then you need to find our all about how to run an internet service provider (what are the legalities connected with linking a local network into the internet, what are the technical challenges, how to actually run a network, how to administer it, etc) and offer that as a service to the cooperative venture corporation. That way you can have your cake and eat it, too. Meaning you can stimulate the construction of the local network but have money to survive while you do it. It is a question of separating out the hats, the functions. 

Of course if you have friends and you can separate not only the functions but also assign separate people to the separate functions, that would be the best. 

Sepp

"The individual is supreme and finds the way through intuition"

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/  

http://www.laleva.org

http://blog.hasslberger.com/ 

http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger

http://twitter.com/healthsupreme

.

[Venessa Miemis]

On Apr 22, 12:19 am, Isaac Wilder <is...@freenetworkmovement.org>
wrote:

> I haven't come to a conclusion yet, though I wish I could say that I
> have. I want to ask some more questions before I take any action. In
> particular, I want to ask Venessa what she sees as an alternative next
> step to starting a non-profit.

isaac,

i was just giving my feedback like everyone else, i don't claim that
my opinions are 'right.' others in this thread have been quite
supportive of you moving forward with the nonprofit.

some questions:

have you written out a list of functions of the FNF? i just briefly
glanced at the bylaws you attached at the beginning of this thread,
and it says the purpose of the foundation is to promote the free
transmission of information.

so does this mean that once local areas create mesh nets for their
communities, the FNF will act to defend those networks via litigation?
or does it mean that you'll offer resource guides of how communities
can actually go about implementing a mesh net within their area?
or does it provide a database of individuals or organizations who are
available to give firsthand expert advice and help navigate technical
or social or legal specifics?
do you want to create an organization that protects the interests of
open mesh projects globally, or do you want the foundation to be a
cooperatively owned mesh network prototype so there is a precedent of
how that works in practice?

read through the about page on the Open Mesh Project - where is the
overlap in what they are doing and what you want to do?
http://www.openmeshproject.org/about-us.html

who are the stakeholders who would be interested in the success of
this initiative? what academic institutions or centers for internet &
society should be on board as supporters? what other nonprofits should
be involved? what customers?
perhaps a stakeholder analysis or 'ecosystem awareness' document or
mindmap would be a useful exercise - http://www.jackmartinleith.com/?page_id=4465

is a place for any of these projects or communities to come into
alignment with FNF's goals?
http://emergentbydesign.com/2011/02/11/16-projects-initiatives-building-ad-hoc-wireless-mesh-networks/

here's a couple hundred wireless community networks around the world.
should they care what you're up to?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wireless_community_networks_by_region

in terms of an alternative to a nonprofit, i really don't know. i just
discovered a hybrid business form called an L3C, which is for-profit,
but in service specifically of socially beneficial aims. i think it's
a relatively new structure, and i don't know the ins and outs, so
don't mistake this for legal advice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L3C

anyway, i don't want to discourage you from anything, i'm just
suggesting to do your due diligence of understanding the current
landscape, potential supporters, challenges, needs, etc, and some
clearly defined objectives so you know where to focus your attention.

and besides all that - yeah, at the end of the day, you still gotta
eat. so think about how to put yourself in a position where satisfying
basic needs isn't always a pressure. maybe that means you live in some
sort of intentional community or ashram. maybe you get a nonprofit to
commission your work and accept donations on your behalf. i don't
know. just think about what you have to do for yourself first in mind
and body in order to be most effective, before taking on the challenge
of saving the world. ;)

- v

[Venessa Miemis]

On Apr 21, 10:53 pm, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Venessa's more global and interconnected ambitions, could need its own
> dedicated infrastructure, which could be dedicated specifically to
> interconnecting projects on a global scale, a kind of association of
> associations, which would be of service to the community of communities and
> foundations/non-profits dedicated to creating autonomous infrastructures,

right. i'm interested in an intelligent knowledge infrastructure,
where i would simply be able to state my intention and have the
resources i'd need for effective decision-making and follow-through
pulled back to me.

- v

[Michael Grube]

Hey Isaac,

I've been following this thread pretty closely because, believe it or not, I actually went through almost exactly the same process about 3 years ago.

  Maybe the key is not to seperate ourselves out into
distinct organizations, but to wait, be patient, and come together as
a unified organism.

Your thinking is dead on here. The nature of this kind of change is that it will occur no matter what and does not need a guiding organization. Not that you shouldn't work with others as much as it will help your efforts, but this whole next net thing is bigger than all of us and a central organization would just get in the way at this point imho.

My advice would be to simply read and research everything you can. It is essential that you really understand exactly what it is that you want as well as all of the other efforts that already exist out there. Try your best to avoid duplicating work so your time isn't wasted.

I don't know exactly what you're thinking or what you have in mind, but my advice to you is to start whatever project you're doing at a small scale first and then scale up.

Venessa, you asked me if there was any particular moment when it all
came together for me. The answer is yes. I travelled to Havana, Cuba
this past summer with three of my closest friends from school. They
studied at the university there, but I chose to stay at our guest
house and see if I couldn't write my first novel. It took me just over
two weeks, and what came out is a story called 'Malady.' It is the
story of the global MIND, a vision of how it might come to be, and the
seed of the Free Network Movement. That's when it all clicked for me,
and I've been working pretty feverishly ever since. I have alienated
some of my friends, and inspired others. I've built an organization
here at my school, but I feel stifled and constrained by this
environment. I haven't had time to pick Malady back up since the
summer, and I know that it needs much work. I think that it could help
spread the message, our message, this message. I was thinking that
maybe I could be a messenger, too.

I'm not interested in sharing my story but there are some very close similarities between our experiences.
 

This brings me back to the point: Free Network Foundation, trying to
find patrons, trying to get money to do the good work that needs to be
done. Ultimately, I need to find a way to support myself while I work
on Malady. I know that, realistically, I will probably just have to
get another kitchen job and write in what time I can make for myself.
It is only my sense of urgency that motivates me to seek some
alternate path - one where I could set concertedly about the task of
telling people what is coming. Perhaps that path will yet emerge.


I'm going to take what seems like sage advice, and hold off on
incorporating the FNF, at least until May. It is always good to
re-evaluate.

Yes, for your own sake, please be careful about your choices. There are a lot of people who prey on ambitious young people. There are also well meaning people who don't really know your situation who will try to guide you. It is extremely important that you always keep your head, detach yourself from the situation and think critically about the situation. All of your risks should be calculated. Never do something based solely on how you feel about it.


I wish I had more time to write a response to this, but I wish you the best of luck and will continue to follow this.

Michael
 

[Jon Lebkowsky]

That's what we used to call a decision support system, no?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_support_system

~ Jon

--

Jon Lebkowsky (@jonl)
Internet Expert and Strategist

Honcho, Polycot Associates, LLC

Work |  Twitter | LinkedIn | Facebook | Wikipedia | Blog

[Robert Steele]

kind of like a world brain with global game (smile).

[Michael Grube]

Woah woah woah, What? Was anybody talking about this before? This is exactly what I am trying to build.

 

- v

[Venessa Miemis]

On Apr 22, 10:07 am, Jon Lebkowsky <jon.lebkow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's what we used to call a decision support system, no?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_support_system
>
> ~ Jon

yes, that is one way to put it. but it's not just about large scale
group decision making, but also about individual decisions. consider
it a mix of p2p therapy, mentoring, and life coaching. (i receive this
via my online network constantly.)

On Apr 22, 10:09 am, Robert Steele

<robert.david.steele.vi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> kind of like a world brain with global

> game<http://www.phibetaiota.net/m4is2/>(smile).

yes, that's another way to phrase it, though i prefer to just describe
it rather than box it in with that title of world brain and global
game. for me, world brain connotates a third party intelligence, and
that's not the way i interpret it. global game connotates a game, and
it's not really a game to me.

On Apr 22, 10:12 am, Michael Grube <michael.gr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Woah woah woah, What? Was anybody talking about this before? This is exactly
> what I am trying to build.

yes, it's been talked about. there are several layers of what 'next
net' means going on here. for some it's physical infrastructure. for
me it's how our minds are expressing their resources, needs and
intentions to one another so that we can dynamically cluster around
shared visions or initiatives and accelerate social innovation,
sustainability and thrivability for human civilization.

[Michael Grube]

Expect an email from me this weekend detailing what I have done and what I am planning. It would be great to design a working system with input from people who have the same goal.

[Poor Richard]

On Friday, April 22, 2011 7:41:13 AM UTC-5, Venessa Miemis wrote:

 

i'm interested in an intelligent knowledge infrastructure,
where i would simply be able to state my intention and have the
resources i'd need for effective decision-making and follow-through
pulled back to me.

Exactly! Me too :)

PR

[Marcos]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Isaac Wilder <is...@freenetworkmovement.org> wrote:

You're right.
I've been convinced that planting a flag is not the right thing to do.

I do still think that it's important to hammer down the meaning of
consensus, though. I think that we're going to have to do that.

On that note, you might check out the article "basic principles" on metagovernment.org as well as the article "synthesis".

marcos

[Robert Steele]

love the pointer to metagovernment.  going to do a cross post.  thank you.

[Devin Balkind]

HTS, I agree with your sentiments.  

I'd be very interested in learning more about your work.  We're working on a game for a gifting network in New York and have discussed it a bit on this thread: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/contactsummit/4w3LWqO_B78

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 2:15 PM, HTS <idha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting range of conversation...

Am i still assuming the conversation is talking about how to build a
global game, which interfaces with the real world, to empower people
to integrate on and offline together, re-patterning how we exchange
information and value in our world?

Our team was working with Edwin Loo to build just this, but it didn't
come from a 'trying to solve every problem in the world' perspective'

I believe when you come at it from this angel, you actually get
steeped in so much detail, that people will not actually have fun
playing it..

You have to be much sneakier. Think about the engaging elements first,
make the game as addictive as World Of Warcraft, create a new fantasy
land with Avatars, and integrate people together through the
technology.

Our USP's were

New Time Calender
New Open Money Exchange
New Knowledge Economy

And an intelligent system for getting people to do 'missions' in the
offline world, which translated into feedback and points in the online
world, which were part of larger exchange mechanism and network.
Fundamentally, we are patterned inside of a matrix of Time and Value,
held together by the codification of our collective cultural
consciousness (law)...

99% of people do not understand how any of these systems work to a
sufficient enough degree to change them.

All that is needed is for people to play a new game..

On Apr 18, 11:25 pm, Charles N Wyble <char...@knownelement.com> wrote:
> On 04/18/2011 11:00 PM, Poor Richard wrote:
>
> > On 4/18/2011 3:58 PM, Kaliya Hamlin wrote:
> > Kaliya,
>
> > Although the distributed p2p YaCy search engine can do a pretty good job
> > of search (with many independent crawlers working 24/7, and only a
> > compressed index residing on each node),
>
> Yeah I have Yacy running. Need to play with it some more.
>
> >  a large database application is
> > very difficult to do in a p2p fashion with fully independent peers.  It
> > is difficult to get good database performance on a pc-class server at
> > all.
>
> Hadoop + hbase does it quite well. Many 10k+ hadoop clusters
> out there. I built a 500 node hadoop cluster once. Was fun.
>
> >  Concurrency control (record locking, etc.) and forcing integrity
> > over a network would be a nightmare,
>
> Throw it all out. Use hadoop + hbase.
>
> >  not to mention the amount of
> > storage each node would need to mirror the database and indexes.
>
> Nope. Just the portion it needs to know about. Small amount
> of centralized nodes to know where things are located.
>
> >  At the
> > very least, I would think the nodes would have to be dedicated servers
> > with high-speed internet connections, and there might need to be one or
> > more "master nodes" for resolving integrity issues.
>
> I should do some experiments with Hadoop over consumer WAN
> connections, once we have a few thousand nodes in a distributed
> setup.
>
> If someone throws me 10k I'll get the FreedomBoxes setup and
> distributed. Of course I would have the image finished before this

> for people to setup their own test labs. Perhaps we could havehttp://labs.ripe.net/Members/dfk/active_measurements/hosting-a-probe-...

> help with the administration of the program?
>
> Yes I've designed, built, deployed and defended multiple nation wide
> content delivery systems for brands you have most certainly heard of.
> Some of them used heavily centralized approaches, others massively
> distributed. Each with pros/cons. Whee!!!
>
> > If I'm wrong, and these problems have been solved, I hope to be corrected.
>
> You aren't wrong. Just looking at the problem space from one particular
> perspective.
>

> Charles N Wyble char...@knownelement.com @charlesnwhttp://blog.knownelement.com

> Building tomorrows alternate default free zone
>

>  signature.asc
> < 1KViewDownload

[Devin Balkind]

Isaac.  Starting in May we'll be able to feed and shelter you at FLO Farm, provide regular transport you to NYC and find you couches and a community in NYC and the region that supports nomadic techno-warrior-activists.  Don't waste time doing things you don't like and aren't helpful to the movement.  We can carry your weight.

[Isaac Wilder]

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Thanks Devin.

I might just take you up on that.

To everyone else who has offered advice and support over the last few
days, thank you, I appreciate it more than I am aptly able to express.

I am beginning to get an idea of where I am headed, but I want to be
sure. It does seem to me that there is room for a Free Network
Foundation in this ecosystem, but I am going to pin down details
before I proceed. That is, figure out exact functions and exact
sources of funding, and then re-evaluate.

I was less active on the list this weekend because I was engaged in
the final assembly of a geodesic dome that I've been fabricating over
the course of the last month. I don't know where I'll be come summer,
but I think that I'll probably be trying my hand at freeganism, and
living in this dome. So.... watch out FLOfarm, or Austin, or wherever
I might end up.....



night y'all,
and take care,

imw

On 04/24/2011 08:02 PM, Devin Balkind wrote:

> Isaac. Starting in May we'll be able to feed and shelter you at
> FLO Farm, provide regular transport you to NYC and find you couches
> and a community in NYC and the region that supports nomadic
> techno-warrior-activists. Don't waste time doing things you don't
> like and aren't helpful to the movement. We can carry your
> weight.
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 12:19 AM, Isaac Wilder
> <is...@freenetworkmovement.org

> <mailto:is...@freenetworkmovement.org>> wrote:
>
>
> On 04/21/2011 07:10 AM, Venessa Miemis wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:58 AM, Charles N Wyble
>
>> <cha...@knownelement.com <mailto:cha...@knownelement.com>

> <mailto:cha...@knownelement.com>

> -- Devin Balkind @devinbalkind vitamindwb.com

> <http://vitamindwb.com>

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[Isaac Wilder]

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Hi Sepp,
I'm really glad to hear about what's going on in Rome. Are you aware
of any other similar co-ops that are forming? Ideally, we could get
co-oppers into global conversation with one another, via the FNF or
another venue.

On 04/22/2011 03:21 AM, Sepp Hasslberger wrote

>
>
> Hi Isaac,
>
> you said it - we're in this thing together.
>
> What we are [about to be] doing here in the Rome area in Italy is,
> to bring people together around the idea of constructing their own
> local network and linking up with each other.

This is exactly what needs to happen. I'd love to hear more about the
architecture.

>
> The legal form will be what is called a cooperative. That is a
> business venture, owned by a number of people, and in our case it
> will be all those who wish to be part of the network. Perhaps
> there is a form of company in the US legal system that can serve in
> this way. It isn't a non-profit. We're not about trying to avoid
> taxes. We're just not going to have a lot of profit to distribute.
>
>

I'm not sure that we have anything like that here. There's the LLC,
which, from my understanding serves a similar role, but nothing quite
like a cooperative.

> The idea of a cooperative is a business owned by (mainly) those
> who profit from what the business does.

Perhaps we can work through existing legal channels to help come up
with a legal model that does this within the American framework. We
could use this model to assist those that are interested in
establishing network access cooperatives. We really gotta get some
legal benders on this list. (Eben Moglen, anyone?)

>
> We are lucky to have a technical person (actually a couple) who
> have been into networks as a for-profit venture, and who will serve
> as the tech persons - planning the network and installing the
> nodes, running the network as an internet service provider would,
> but with the understanding that they provide the technical service
> for the cooperative. They are like an outside company hired by the
> cooperative who takes care of all the technical stuff, the network
> design and construction, the leasing of a high bandwidth internet
> connection for the network, and all the legal stuff needed for
> running a network.

I like this model. It could be workable here, though I think I might
need to relocate to an area with higher population density.

>
> If you can separate yourself from the actual cooperative, the
> company, I could see a role for you as the technical person doing
> all that work, paid for by a cooperative of users who decide to
> form their own corporation. It's a bit tricky to conceive at
> first, because there are some separate functions.

I was talking to Charles the other day about a sort of tripartite
ecosystem that might emerge in the Free Network problem space: First,
a hardware vendor (VillageTelco, etc), whose radios run open source
software, and whose hardware designs are open source. Second, a
non-profit support organization, such as the Free Network Foundation,
that helps people get coops up and running, provides legal support,
helps fund R&D, and promotes the cause. And third, a service
corporation (which hasn't emerged yet, but might be called 'meshworks
ltd., or something like that) that groups could hire to install and
maintain their network if they don't possess the technical expertise.

Of course, this is at a theoretical elevation high above the level of
a single cooperative, but it is still worth thinking about. As far as
the local level goes, and how I might manage to eat off of
mesh-building, I hear you loud and clear.

>
> Right now you imagine yourself as the one who does it all. What
> you need is a number of people who will promote the corporation as
> a cooperative venture. You can help them in this, but it is not
> your principal function.
>
> Then you need to find our all about how to run an internet service
> provider (what are the legalities connected with linking a local
> network into the internet, what are the technical challenges, how
> to actually run a network, how to administer it, etc) and offer
> that as a service to the cooperative venture corporation. That way
> you can have your cake and eat it, too. Meaning you can stimulate
> the construction of the local network but have money to survive
> while you do it. It is a question of separating out the hats, the
> functions.
>
> Of course if you have friends and you can separate not only the
> functions but also assign separate people to the separate
> functions, that would be the best.

I think that in order to follow your advice, I need to find a
community of hackers that are willing to dive in. That's exactly what
I plan to do. I'm living currently in a town of about 10,000,
attending a college of about 1,500, and so it's hard to find the right
people to fill these roles. There are certainly some wonderful people
here in Grinnell, but I think that it will get easier to find the
right people in a place like Austin or New York or Montreal.


thanks and
take care,
imw

>
> Sepp
>
> */"The individual is supreme and finds the way through
> intuition"/*

>
> http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/ http://www.laleva.org
> http://blog.hasslberger.com/ http://www.facebook.com/hasslberger
> http://twitter.com/healthsupreme
>
> .
>

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[Sepp Hasslberger]

On Apr 26, 2011, at 10:17 PM, Isaac Wilder wrote:

I'm really glad to hear about what's going on in Rome. Are you aware
of any other similar co-ops that are forming? Ideally, we could get
co-oppers into global conversation with one another, via the FNF or
another venue.

For now I don't know any active ones off hand, but I have been and will be keeping an eye out for developments and for linking up any initiatives that do form. There is someone in the US who says he'd like to stimulate just that kind of development, and that he's making a site, but it has been quite a while, and he doesn't seem to be getting off the ground with this. He's got a good name for it ('the connective') and a blog/twitter feed 

http://blog.theconnective.net/

but I just don't see much action. His name's Mark and you can find him by email on - inst...@gmail.com

Another similar idea is the starfish initiative (but also this one is more of a flag planted, than an actual working thing)

http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/starfish-user-owned-distributed-network/2011/01/28

> What we are [about to be] doing here in the Rome area in Italy is, to bring people together around the idea of constructing their own local network and linking up with each other.

This is exactly what needs to happen. I'd love to hear more about the
architecture.

I will tell more when we're further along. For now we are looking to find participants and start the cooperative.

I was talking to Charles the other day about a sort of tripartite
ecosystem that might emerge in the Free Network problem space: First,
a hardware vendor (VillageTelco, etc), whose radios run open source
software, and whose hardware designs are open source. Second, a
non-profit support organization, such as the Free Network Foundation,
that helps people get coops up and running, provides legal support,
helps fund R&D, and promotes the cause. And third, a service
corporation (which hasn't emerged yet, but might be called 'meshworks
ltd., or something like that) that groups could hire to install and
maintain their network if they don't possess the technical expertise.

Of course, this is at a theoretical elevation high above the level of
a single cooperative, but it is still worth thinking about. As far as
the local level goes, and how I might manage to eat off of
mesh-building, I hear you loud and clear.

True, but it is proper to sort out the different functions that are needed into separate hats (or separate entities) that take care of them.

Sepp

[Venessa Miemis]

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:12 AM, Sepp Hasslberger <se...@lastrega.com> wrote:

For now I don't know any active ones off hand, but I have been and will be keeping an eye out for developments and for linking up any initiatives that do form. There is someone in the US who says he'd like to stimulate just that kind of development, and that he's making a site, but it has been quite a while, and he doesn't seem to be getting off the ground with this. He's got a good name for it ('the connective') and a blog/twitter feed 

http://blog.theconnective.net/

you might also reach out to the Freifunk community and see if they can point you in a productive direction. 

"Freifunk (German for Free Radio) is an initiative to support the development of tools for free mesh networks. Besides that the initiative supports communities developing know-how to set up their own networks." 

http://wiki.freifunk.net/Kategorie:English