Fwd: [Boise Software Developers Group] New comment on More on Microsoft vs the Free World.
Jim McKeeth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPecBxM2f6c
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-Jim McKeeth
j...@mckeeth.org
www.mckeeth.org
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Chad Moore
Date: Sep 9, 2007 10:35 PM
Subject: [Boise Software Developers Group] New comment on More on Microsoft vs the Free World.
To: j...@mckeeth.org
Chad Moore has left a new comment on your post " More on Microsoft vs the Free World":
Without getting into technical details here is an amusing demonstration of Vista vs. Ubuntu on YouTube. It's an interesting peek at what the future brings.
Posted by Chad Moore to Boise Software Developers Group at 10:35 PM
Steven Borg
Well, Apple has done it again. PC World rated a series of laptops and the single best laptop to run Vista on remains… the MacBook Pro.
http://tech.msn.com/products/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=5192933
Money quote: “The MacBook Pro outperformed the rest of
the notebooks we tested, all of which claim Windows as their primary--nay,
their only--operating system.”
:-)
Steve
Jacob Munson
That's some pretty neat stuff, but...I have to ruin my reputation and
defend Microsoft here. When it comes down to it, do all those neat
graphical tricks improve any? Is so, it's the improvement is very
minimal. I guess that goes to the Vista tricks as well. However,
Windows enjoys one advantage that is going to be VERY hard to replace
in Mac OS and Linux: vendor support. Which OS does everybody make
their software/hardware for (I'm talking desktop software, not
server). All those cool desktop tricks don't help me any of my all of
my favorite software won't run on your operating system.
Sure, there are often cross platform alternatives for popular Windows
software, but they are usually crippled in some way when compared to
their Windows counterparts. If all you need is email, browser, and
office apps, you are probably fine. But once you start looking at
development tools, games, hardware and it's drivers, etc., Mac OS and
Linux fall on their faces. And it's not their fault. It's the
vendors that chose to develop for Windows, but they have very good
reasons to make that choice (market share numbers=$$).
--
Jake Munson
Kuna, ID, USA
http://www.techfeed.net/blog/
http://www.cfquickdocs.com/
http://cfformprotect.riaforge.org/
Jim McKeeth
Jacob Munson
> graphical tricks improve any? Is so, it's the improvement is very
> minimal.
Wow, I sound like a foreign language speaker...Maybe this sounds
better: "When it comes down to it, do all those neat graphical tricks
improve my job? If so, the improvement is very minimal."
Mike Moore
> Check out the great Vista vs. Ubuntu video on YouTube
That's some pretty neat stuff, but...I have to ruin my reputation and
defend Microsoft here. When it comes down to it, do all those neat
graphical tricks improve any? Is so, it's the improvement is very
minimal. I guess that goes to the Vista tricks as well. However,
Windows enjoys one advantage that is going to be VERY hard to replace
in Mac OS and Linux: vendor support.
I totally agree with you. My MacBook Pro's audio port is stuck on digital out, so I have a red light beaming out of my laptop and my speakers won't play sound. I had to stroll down to the mall and talk to a real life person at the Apple store. He booted my laptop with an external drive to make sure it wasn't a software problem and told me that i had a bad board and it would have to be replaced. He said he'd order the part and then printed out a support ticket and told me to bring it back in when I get a call from them. Two days later I got the call and scheduled a time to bring my laptop in to get the part replaced.
TAKE THAT APPLE! Microsoft totally owns you for support of hardware and software!
Which OS does everybody make
their software/hardware for (I'm talking desktop software, not
server). All those cool desktop tricks don't help me any of my all of
my favorite software won't run on your operating system.
What cool software are you talking about? The only apps I load Windows for anymore is Visual Studio. Maybe I'm missing out though, can you enlighten me to which Windows apps I should be using?
Jacob Munson
time I'm the one defending Microsoft! This is going to make me throw
up, but here it goes... ;)
> TAKE THAT APPLE! Microsoft totally owns you for support of hardware and
> software!
Well, it should have been obvious that I was not talking about Apple's
own hardware, but rather 3rd party hardware. Printers, digital
cameras, MP3 players, external hard drives, set top boxes, keyboards,
mice, etc. 3rd party hardware vendors make these kind of products,
and a lot of them require Windows. And yes, I know you can find
plenty of the above listed hardware that will run on a Mac. But what
if I already have a decent collection of hardware? Can you guarantee
that it will all run on the Mac, or better yet Linux? Or what if I
really want that cool looking toy at Best Buy, but it only lists
Windows operating systems under the sys reqs? Maybe your friend at
the mall will write me a custom driver...believe me, I am NOT a
Windows fan. In fact, I tend to hate it. But I have also fought with
a LOT of hardware problems in my years of using Linux as my primary
desktop (not anymore), so you will never convince me that there are no
hardware problems in the Mac/Linux world.
> What cool software are you talking about? The only apps I load Windows for
> anymore is Visual Studio. Maybe I'm missing out though, can you enlighten
> me to which Windows apps I should be using?
I don't want to say that you /should/ be using anything. If you are
happy with Mac OS, have fun! I'm not here to change your mind. But
since you asked, here's some of my favorite Windows only software.
But first, let me specify that I have used Mac OS a lot at work, and I
don't like it. If I moved away from Windows, I would be going back to
Linux. But here's my list:
PaintShop Pro
FireWorks
PhotoShop
Flash (I think there are Mac versions of those three, but not Linux)
Beyond Compare
IrfanView
Crimson Editor
FileAnt
I'm sure there's more, but that's a decent list I quickly put
together. And I have heard of WINE, and have spent many hours
fighting with it trying to get Windows software to run on Linux. Been
there, done that, don't want to go back. Can I find alternatives for
that software in the Linux world? Sure, but will it have all of my
favorite features? And what about the money I spent to get some of
those titles? Will somebody in Linux land reimburse me for that?
These are all things I think about when I get upset with Windows, just
about everyday.
Mike Moore
Wow! It's another anti-pro microsoft flame war in the works, but THIS
time I'm the one defending Microsoft! This is going to make me throw
up, but here it goes... ;)
> TAKE THAT APPLE! Microsoft totally owns you for support of hardware and
> software!
Well, it should have been obvious that I was not talking about Apple's
own hardware, but rather 3rd party hardware. Printers, digital
cameras, MP3 players, external hard drives, set top boxes, keyboards,
mice, etc. 3rd party hardware vendors make these kind of products,
and a lot of them require Windows. And yes, I know you can find
plenty of the above listed hardware that will run on a Mac. But what
if I already have a decent collection of hardware? Can you guarantee
that it will all run on the Mac, or better yet Linux? Or what if I
really want that cool looking toy at Best Buy, but it only lists
Windows operating systems under the sys reqs? Maybe your friend at
the mall will write me a custom driver...believe me, I am NOT a
Windows fan. In fact, I tend to hate it. But I have also fought with
a LOT of hardware problems in my years of using Linux as my primary
desktop (not anymore), so you will never convince me that there are no
hardware problems in the Mac/Linux world.
> What cool software are you talking about? The only apps I load Windows for
> anymore is Visual Studio. Maybe I'm missing out though, can you enlighten
> me to which Windows apps I should be using?
I don't want to say that you /should/ be using anything. If you are
happy with Mac OS, have fun! I'm not here to change your mind. But
since you asked, here's some of my favorite Windows only software.
But first, let me specify that I have used Mac OS a lot at work, and I
don't like it. If I moved away from Windows, I would be going back to
Linux. But here's my list:
PaintShop Pro
FireWorks
PhotoShop
Flash (I think there are Mac versions of those three, but not Linux)
Beyond Compare
IrfanView
Crimson Editor
FileAnt
I'm sure there's more, but that's a decent list I quickly put
together. And I have heard of WINE, and have spent many hours
fighting with it trying to get Windows software to run on Linux. Been
there, done that, don't want to go back. Can I find alternatives for
that software in the Linux world? Sure, but will it have all of my
favorite features? And what about the money I spent to get some of
those titles? Will somebody in Linux land reimburse me for that?
These are all things I think about when I get upset with Windows, just
about everyday.
Jacob Munson
> overcome that frustration. Life is too short to be frustrated by your
> tools.
It all comes down to money, my friend. Macs are expensive, there's no
getting around that. And before you jump on the "PCs are about the
same price as Macs" argument, consider that I usually get the cheapest
PC/Laptop available at the time. I never spend $2000 for a PC/laptop.
<$500 is more my price range. That pretty much throws Macs out the
window, for me.
Also, like I said before, I've used Mac OS at work a lot, and I don't
like the operating system. Everything is so darn simplified that I
feel cramped and restricted. What if I don't WANT to do something the
"apple way"? What if I find something unintuitive, or difficult
(which happens a lot)? There are very little customization options
that I could find, for the basic core OS settings and applications
(desktop, dock thingy, finder, etc.). And addons usually cost money
(freeware seems to be scarce in the Apple world). By the time I'd get
the thing customized to my liking, I'd be hundreds of dollars into it,
and that's AFTER the initial purchase price. I am very picky when it
comes to software. Ask my wife, she's the one that has to hear my
constant ramblings about how crappy [fill in the blank] software is.
I doubt I'd be a very happy camper in the closed, proprietary, "Steve
Jobs is God" world of the Mac. I am VERY hard to please. I don't
jump on many bandwagons, all operating systems are fair game for my
whiny complaints.
I keep waiting for the day that either John C. Dvorak or Asa Dotzler
finally declare a linux distro worthy for the masses, then I'll give
Linux a try again. Until then, I'll live with Windows. Because like
you said, life is too short to be frustrated with your tools. :)
Edwin R. Paay
supporting Linux as well as Windows we will be stuck with Microsoft's
bloated junk for the foreseeable future. So for me I will support Linux and
hope enough people will do so to give Microsoft some real competition and
give hardware manufacturers the message to support Linux as well.
For the average user, Linux has everything they need and it supports more
and more hardware. I have Kubuntu running and it even came with a pretty
good desktop publishing system called Scriptus as well as open office etc.
Ed.
-----Original Message-----
From: bs...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bs...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Jacob Munson
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 2:10 PM
To: bs...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [BSDG] Re: Fwd: [Boise Software Developers Group] New comment on
More on Microsoft vs the Free World.
Michael J. Ryan
> Unless some people bite the bullet and only buy hardware and software
> supporting Linux as well as Windows we will be stuck with Microsoft's
> bloated junk for the foreseeable future. So for me I will support Linux and
> hope enough people will do so to give Microsoft some real competition and
> give hardware manufacturers the message to support Linux as well.
> For the average user, Linux has everything they need and it supports more
> and more hardware. I have Kubuntu running and it even came with a pretty
> good desktop publishing system called Scriptus as well as open office etc.
Well, intel based motherboards/chipsets seem to be very well supported...
nVidia, and intel video is pretty well supported... nvidia motherboards tend
to be about 4-6 months out, depending on your distro.... if you use a 6+ month
old chipset, the motherboard will likely be supported on a current distro.
As to sound chipsets, most onboard chipsets these days are supported, ymmv,
and I did have to compile alsa from source (not too bad) because of a bug in
the shipped alsa for my distro of choice... As for other hardware, more and
more printers are well supported, HP and Brother printers are pretty well
supported with FOSS drivers.. webcam support is ever-growing.. most of the
core stuff is supported, but fringe stuff, not so much.
As to software, wine has made incredible strides the last few years, and if
you buy crossover office support from codeweavers, you are funding wine
development. Most direct-x 8 games run.. and many mainstream programs (non
.net) run great... cedega supports more recent games, but doesn't offer
advances to the general wine tree. as to .net apps, mono is a pretty safe
framework to use at this point, if you aren't using weird COM or p/invoke
calls, you can port pretty easily.
For most commercial software there are free (as in freedom) alternatives for
most.. many are pretty polished now... still want paintshop pro to run under
wine/crossover though... other than psp, and visual studio, I have about
anything I'd need under linux... There's also vmware, parallels, kqemu, etc
for running windows for those few business apps that keep you tied though.
--
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1(at)theroughnecks(dot)com - www.theroughnecks.net
icq: 4935386 - AIM/AOL: azTracker1 - Y!: azTracker1 - MSN/Win: (email)
... Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #200: A madman with Latinum means profit
without return
DanKegel
> since you asked, here's some of my favorite Windows only software...
> PaintShop Pro
> FireWorks
> PhotoShop
> Flash (I think there are Mac versions of those three, but not Linux)
> Beyond Compare
> IrfanView
> Crimson Editor
> FileAnt
>
> I'm sure there's more, but that's a decent list I quickly put
> together. And I have heard of WINE, and have spent many hours
> fighting with it trying to get Windows software to run on Linux.
That just means Wine wasn't ready to run those apps. I personally
wouldn't use Wine if I had to fight with it; it should just work.
Which versions of those apps are you using?
As of Wine-0.9.45, Photoshop versions up to and including CS
should work quite well, with no fiddling other than perhaps installing
a font. Likewise, Fireworks 8 is said to work quite well.
> Been there, done that, don't want to go back.
Oh, sometime next year, Wine ought to be good enough for you to take a
look, I'd say.
- Dan
Jim McKeeth
A few years back, I used to do all my development in VMWare. It offered a number of advantages:
- Easy versioning of my entire development environment.
- Easy to synchronize development environments with other developers.
- Portability of development environment.
- Quick testing sandbox.
- Sandboxing of "hazardous" activities like email and web browsing.
- Less downtime to hardware and software issues since they are modular.
- Sandbox of development environment.
- Better performance from fresher OS install.
The company I am going to work for in Seattle does this to, for a lot of the same reasons. But they run VMWare under Linux (usually Ubuntu, but the distro doesn't really matter). The reason they do this is Linux has far superior memory management over XP and is more stable and then Vista. They realize a huge performance increase running large VM's under Linux over any other Microsoft OS except 2003 Server. It is about on par with 2003 server, but that is a real expensive option for a desktop environment. Each developer typically runs at least two VM's at a time.
VMWare is not very expensive for doing this either. One person has Workstation (or even the free server version if you like) and they setup the VM's and everyone else runs the free player with the preconfigured VMs. When I was originally using this, we all had Workstation because there was no free version. We also walked uphill to work both ways! <grin>
You could probably do the same thing with Virtual PC, but everything I have seen ranks VMWare higher for performance, plus Virtual PC won't run under Linux, so you are stuck buying Server 2003 if you want performance. VMWare will convert Virtual PC images too, so you are covered either way.
Jacob Munson
last month, and I've got a headless linux instance running...I'm very
impressed. I haven't don't any Windows "guesting" with it though, not
sure how well that compares to VMWare.
Jacob Munson
> wouldn't use Wine if I had to fight with it; it should just work.
> Which versions of those apps are you using?
Paintshop Pro X and the Adobe web premier CS3 suite (I won it at the
local Adobe CS3 launch event). The problem with Wine is they are
always playing a catch up game. It takes them a long time to catch up
new Windows OSes, and they only work on the most popular software
(which makes sense, anyway).
Jacob Munson
> and I did have to compile alsa from source (not too bad) because of a bug in
> the shipped alsa for my distro of choice... As for other hardware, more and
> more printers are well supported, HP and Brother printers are pretty well
> supported with FOSS drivers.. webcam support is ever-growing.. most of the
> core stuff is supported, but fringe stuff, not so much.
What about wifi cards? I have a 1+ year old Compaq laptop with an
unsupported wifi card. I spent a long time trying to get Linux to
recognize it last year, no luck. Apparently the card has the same
chipset as a very popular Linksys home router, and that router runs
Linux. But Cisco refuses to release their drivers to the public. I
found an open source project on SourceForge.net that is attempting to
create a driver for the wifi card, but it didn't work. Very
frustrating. This is exactly what I am talking about when I say that
Windows is still the best operating system, /if/ you care to get
things done instead of fight with your hardware/software for hours and
hours on end, and /maybe/ have some success. Actually, my wired NIC
works fine...I guess I could just buy a REALLY long network cable to
carry around... ;)
Jim McKeeth
Hardware support is a very nice feature of an operating system, but it does not make it the best. Someone could create an operating system that supported all the hardware in the world, but did absolutely nothing with it. Or that only let you use it for 5 minutes before it rebooted. Of course this is a silly example, but so is claiming one OS is the best based on its performance in one aspect alone.
Different OS's are more well suited to different purposes. What may be the best OS for one task at one time may be the worst for a task at another time.
best operating system == operating system most well suited for task at hand
Jacob Munson
I should have specified "Desktop" operating system, but it doesn't
really change the argument.
Explain to me how I can use Linux when I'm on the road, not near a
network port. My "task at hand" is to actually /use/ my laptop, and
connected to the rest of the world. My wife's Aunt actually wants to
USE her digital camera. My dad actually wants to USE his favorite
game (windows only). Is it unreasonable to make these demands? Maybe
we should all throw our computers, hardware, and software away and get
a Linux compatible stuff. That's would fix it.
Best operating system == the one that /works/ for /all/ of the task I want to do
And as much as I hate to admit it, Windows actually WORKS, most of the
time, for most desktop tasks, software, and hardware. Servers are a
completely different story.
Jim McKeeth
Don't "hate to admit it," if Windows is the tools you need to accomplish the tasks, then use it. You don't hear a construction worker hating to admit that their hammer is the best tool to drive nails, or that his saw is the best tool to cut wood. Wouldn't it be silly if he was so attached to his square that he tried to drive nails with it? Or so attached to his screw driver that he tried to cut wood with it?
Jacob Munson
system, for /most/ people. Sure, I totally agree that Linux or Mac
works great for a lot of people. But the majority of desktop computer
users are going to need (or already have) some Windows only software
and/or hardware, in my opinion, to do something that is a common task
for them. I dearly hope this changes in the near future.
On 9/12/07, Jim McKeeth <j...@mckeeth.org> wrote:
Michael J. Ryan
Yeah, PaintShop Pro is a big one for me... for video, kino is getting really
good though... I really wish there was a fairly polished graphics editor for
linux.. I've used gimp/gimpshop, and it really doesn't compare to psp, or
photoshop... I'm using linux as my laptop's main os, and like it a lot... but
there are a few things that keep me tied to a vmware image.
--
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1(at)theroughnecks(dot)com - www.theroughnecks.net
icq: 4935386 - AIM/AOL: azTracker1 - Y!: azTracker1 - MSN/Win: (email)
... Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #238: The truth will cost