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References: <0C0F108B-44CA-4465-9029-56284352F...@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:20:41 +0000
Message-ID: <CAOcC2rkHev5WnkvcDWC+etRj53XkDsuywdChh=cd90c0CU6...@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [brighton-hacker-space] Liability Waiver.
From: Cyberswitch <cyberswitch2...@gmail.com>
To: brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com
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I for one am not happy about signing any waiver, and will not be doing so.
At the end of the day, if I'm using dangerous equipment and someone knocks
into me or the machine, there is no recompense for someone else's actions.
I do hope this will be brought up in the meeting tomorrow as this is not
something to take on lightly, and I doubt the insurance company will not
insure as for such action.
rather than constantly copying other groups, can we not work things out for
OUR group, after all, we are in many ways a lot different fro other spaces.
Jax
On 1 February 2012 15:00, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1 Feb 2012, at 14:31, Justin Nel wrote:
>
> Speaking from experience, that waiver becomes practically null and void
> the moment all the legal health and safety checks, certificates and
> equipment are not present in the workshops, and you then again are liable
> to be sued regardless of what the waiver says.
>
>
> Yup, we need that in place too.
>
>
> A bit extreme, but think of it this way... you sign a waiver that you are
> going to allow a college student with no medical degree or health and
> safety checks, or anything to keep you safe, perform surgery on you.
> Regardless of signing a waver, it is still against the law, and the student
> would be sued.
>
>
> Totally, bar in my understanding we do not have any equipment on site that
> needs a professional qualification to use. There is a potential issue with
> respect to showing someone how to use a tool (as in, do you need a
> professional qualification to teach welding, for example), and this is an
> area where we really should consult a lawyer. We're still working on the
> principle that all of these skills could be taught to you by your mate in
> his/your garage, and applying that same principle to our community.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Simon @ ICbaby <si...@icbaby.com> wrote:
>
>> Whilst I agree with the idea of the waiver, I'm not sure how well it
>> would stand legally.
>
> I think it needs to be checked with a solicitor first, and even then
>> without plastering every piece of equipment in warning signs, providing
>> suitable safety equipment, ensuring all the kit is regularly tested (and
>> logged) by qualified engineers, having all members trained by a qualified
>> expert and having someone to oversee people are stuff correctly, I think BB
>> would struggle to get out of any arising law suit. Simply saying "I'm
>> responsible for my own actions" probably won't cut it - especially in
>> today's "blame = claim" culture. The laws in Canada maybe different and so
>> maybe this waiver holds some weight there.
>> There are many "legal" documents that are just total rubbish. As far as I
>> understand it, "Trespassers will be prosecuted" is a good example.
>> Trespassing is a civil matter and not a legal one, so a sign on your front
>> gate means nothing.
>>
>>
> Then we need to get the waiver / H&S process into a form where:
>
> a) BB is not shown to be negligent
> b) We are comfortable (legally) with the notion of having an informal
> process for showing folk how to use equipment. If not, we change our
> process or remove the equipment from the workshop.
>
>
> We need a solicitor to go over this, for sure - but I don't think that
> should stop us from getting this process in place immediately:
>
> *) At present we have no documented process for highlighting the dangers
> in the space, so are currently in a worse position than if we implement a
> document that may not be fully legally binding.
>
> *) It gives us the details of folk that have signed a document that we
> know not to be sufficiently binding, so can ensure that they resign a new
> document when it is available.
>
>
> Incidentally, there's a spelling mistake in paragraph 2. Shouldn't read
>> "could result" not "count result".
>>
>>
> Fixed, ta.
>
> Again though, does anyone know a friendly solicitor?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group.
> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com.
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>
--
*Jackie*
Team Robomods
--e89a8f23505b6c83a404b7e89f36
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I for one am not happy about signing any waiver, and will not be doing so.<=
br>At the end of the day, if I'm using dangerous equipment and someone =
knocks into me or the machine, there is no recompense for someone else'=
s actions.<br>
<br>I do hope this will be brought up in the meeting tomorrow as this is no=
t something to take on lightly, and I doubt the insurance company will not =
insure as for such action.<br><br>rather than constantly copying other grou=
ps, can we not work things out for OUR group, after all, we are in many way=
s a lot different fro other spaces.<br>
Jax<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 1 February 2012 15:00, Mike Pountn=
ey <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:mike.pount...@gmail.com">mike.po=
unt...@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div class=3D"im"><div>On 1 Fe=
b 2012, at 14:31, Justin Nel wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Spea=
king from experience, that waiver becomes practically null and void the mom=
ent all the legal health and safety checks,=A0 certificates and equipment a=
re not present in the workshops, and you then again are liable to be sued r=
egardless of what the waiver says.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Yup, we need that in place too.</div>=
<div><br></div><div><div class=3D"im"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">A bit e=
xtreme, but think of it this way... you sign a waiver that you are going to=
allow a college student with no medical degree or health and safety checks=
, or anything to keep you safe, perform surgery on you. Regardless of signi=
ng a waver, it is still against the law, and the student would be sued.<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Totally, bar in my understanding we =
do not have any equipment on site that needs a professional qualification t=
o use. There is a potential issue with respect to showing someone how to us=
e a tool (as in, do you need a professional qualification to teach welding,=
for example), and this is an area where we really should consult a lawyer.=
We're still working on the principle that all of these skills could be=
taught to you by your mate in his/your garage, and applying that same prin=
ciple to our community.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Si=
mon @ ICbaby <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:si...@icbaby.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">si...@icbaby.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;=
margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Whilst I agree =
with the idea of the waiver, I'm not sure how well it would stand legal=
ly.</blockquote>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;mar=
gin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rg=
b(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
I think it needs to be checked with a solicitor first, and even then withou=
t plastering every piece of equipment in warning signs, providing suitable =
safety equipment, ensuring all the kit is regularly tested (and logged) by =
qualified engineers, having all members trained by a qualified expert and h=
aving someone to oversee people are stuff correctly, I think BB would strug=
gle to get out of any arising law suit. Simply saying "I'm respons=
ible for my own actions" probably won't cut it - especially in tod=
ay's "blame =3D claim" culture. The laws in Canada maybe diff=
erent and so maybe this waiver holds some weight there.<br>
There are many "legal" documents that are just total rubbish. As =
far as I understand it, "Trespassers will be prosecuted" is a goo=
d example. Trespassing is a civil matter and not a legal one, so a sign on =
your front gate means nothing.<br>
<br></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Then we need =
to get the waiver / H&S process into a form where:</div><div><br></div>=
<div>a) BB is not shown to be negligent</div><div>b) We are comfortable (le=
gally) with the notion of having an informal process for showing folk how t=
o use equipment. If not, we change our process or remove the equipment from=
the workshop.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>We need a solicitor to go over this, for=
sure - but I don't think that should stop us from getting this process=
in place immediately:</div><div><br></div><div>*) At present we have no do=
cumented process for highlighting the dangers in the space, so are currentl=
y in a worse position than if we implement a document that may not be fully=
legally binding.</div>
<div><br></div><div>*) It gives us the details of folk that have signed a d=
ocument that we know not to be sufficiently binding, so can ensure that the=
y resign a new document when it is available.</div><div class=3D"im"><div>
<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0=
px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-co=
lor:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
Incidentally, there's a spelling mistake in paragraph 2. Shouldn't =
read "could result" not "count result".<div><div><br></=
div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Fixed, ta.</=
div>
<div><br></div><div>Again though, does anyone know a friendly solicitor?</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Mike</div><div><br>=
</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=
=3D"h5">
<p></p>
-- <br>
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m/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><font size=
=3D"4"><i>Jackie</i></font><br>
Team Robomods<br><br><br>
--e89a8f23505b6c83a404b7e89f36--
Message from discussion Liability Waiver.
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