Hi guys, one of the topics that came up at the steering meeting the other
week was the question of what we're going to do about heating over the
winter.

We should probably get something sorted out quickly so we can make the most
of it over winter: the space is starting to get cold already, and it would
suck if people stop coming to the space over winter because it's too cold.

A few options that we could think about are:

1 - Getting the gas heater hooked up.
Pros: Would heat the space efficiently
Cons: Very high initial set-up cost
Estimated cost: Approximately £1000 + gas bills

2 - What we did last year (space heaters)
Pros: We already have a bunch of space heaters
Cons: Don't heat the space very well, are inefficient and waste a lot of
energy.
Estimated cost: Higher electricity bills

3 - Invest in some convection heaters / oil-filled radiators
Pros: Would be more efficient than space heaters. We could get models with
built-in timers to ensure they're not left on by accident after people
leave the space / set them to turn on before people arrive on open nights.
Cons: Would have to invest in buying more heaters. Are still fairly
inefficient.
Estimated cost: Lidl currently have convection radiators for £30 - if we
bought 3 or 4 that's £100-120 (but we might need more). Plus electricity
bills.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? There were a couple of ideas
brought forward at the meeting but I can't remember them now :S

I'm going to check what kind of budget we've got available for this as
we've just bought the Henry hoover and Samuel has proposed some costs for
the consumables store, but as this is a fairly essential and urgent thing
I'd really like to sort out a solution as soon as possible.

Em

--
*Emma O'Sullivan*
*
*
*07810 442044*
*e...@ejosullivan.com*
*Twitter: @ejosully*

Plugging gaps and eliminating draughts is critical to keeping a place warm.
I spent a winter in my half-renovated house in France with draughty
windows and doors and gaps under the eaves. We spent a fortune on wood
and coal, keeping a blazing fire going all day just to keep warm. The
minute we plugged up all the draughts, we could put the fire on tickover
(smouldering logs) and stayed quite cosy.

It doesn't matter what form of heating we use, if there are gaps around
doors and draughts allowed to blow in, the space will get cold very
quickly, even with loads of heaters burning up the electricity!

On 13/11/2012 22:28, Emma O'Sullivan wrote:

This is a really good point Chris. We haven't really thought about where heat is being lost.

London hackspace recently had a thread about a similar thing, they bought a job lot of smoke matches to chase the draughts. They are really cheap (a couple of quid) -- i'll find out where they got them from and order a bunch.

On 13 Nov 2012, at 22:35, Chris <chris.hol...@multiedge-net.co.uk> wrote:

I did seal up the spaces front doors a bit a while back as it was
crazy-draughty. Because we have a fairly high and angled ceiling I think we
need either some fan heaters, or just some fans up there - I believe our
shape of roof stops convection or air circulation happening properly (I was
up on the ladder sorting out the lights the other week and it gets really
hot up there)?

*Matt*

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Chris <chris.hol...@multiedge-net.co.uk>wrote:

Thanks Chris and Mike, I totally forgot to include insulation in there!
Does anyone have any experience with this who could help with
draft-proofing the space?

On 13 November 2012 22:46, Mike Pountney <Mike.Pount...@gmail.com> wrote:

Guys, Huge +1 to insulation and further draught proofing.  With all the electrical equipment that we operate, and the bodies in the space on open nights I reckon it would be surprisingly warm given just this parasitic heating if we can trap it.  I am not an isulation expert but I am imagining 100mm think foam blocks would be the go(?)  We would need to work out a way of fitting them to the ceiling which might be challenging but the end/side wall would be easier to implement.  Not sure on the cost on this, we would need to measure up..... +1 also to the idea of a fan or two.  warm air will inevitably collect at roof level so if we can re-circulate that it would make a big difference.  We could possibly hack a solution to this ourselves? On heating, if the gas heater is effective then it would be a bit daft not to bring it into use.  In purely ecomomical terms it would probably be the most efficient (at the moment and for the forseeable, probably...). However, I think the definite priority is proper isulation:a) we can be sure that we are not wasting energy, whatever heating solution we chooseb) we can also judge how much heating we really need, and whether we need to the use big gas heater, or can get away without it. Will From: e...@ejosullivan.com
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 22:54:47 +0000
Subject: Re: [brighton-hacker-space] Heating the hackspace - what shall we do?
To: brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com

Thanks Chris and Mike, I totally forgot to include insulation in there! Does anyone have any experience with this who could help with draft-proofing the space?

On 13 November 2012 22:46, Mike Pountney <Mike.Pount...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is a really good point Chris. We haven't really thought about where heat is being lost.

London hackspace recently had a thread about a similar thing, they bought a job lot of smoke matches to chase the draughts. They are really cheap (a couple of quid) -- i'll find out where they got them from and order a bunch.

On 13 Nov 2012, at 22:35, Chris <chris.hol...@multiedge-net.co.uk> wrote:

      Plugging gaps and eliminating draughts is critical to keeping a
      place warm.

      I spent a winter in my half-renovated house in France with
      draughty windows and doors and gaps under the eaves. We spent a
      fortune on wood and coal, keeping a blazing fire going all day
      just to keep warm. The minute we plugged up all the draughts, we
      could put the fire on tickover (smouldering logs) and stayed quite
      cosy.

      It doesn't matter what form of heating we use, if there are gaps
      around doors and draughts allowed to blow in, the space will get
      cold very quickly, even with loads of heaters burning up the
      electricity!

      On 13/11/2012 22:28, Emma O'Sullivan wrote:

    Hi guys, one of the topics that came up at the
      steering meeting the other week was the question of what we're
      going to do about heating over the winter.

      We should probably get something sorted out quickly so we can
        make the most of it over winter: the space is starting to get
        cold already, and it would suck if people stop coming to the
        space over winter because it's too cold.

      A few options that we could think about are:

      1 - Getting the gas heater hooked up.
      Pros: Would heat the space efficiently
      Cons: Very high initial set-up cost
      Estimated cost: Approximately £1000 + gas bills

      2 - What we did last year (space heaters)
      Pros: We already have a bunch of space heaters
      Cons: Don't heat the space very well, are inefficient and
        waste a lot of energy.
      Estimated cost: Higher electricity bills

      3 - Invest in some convection heaters / oil-filled radiators
      Pros: Would be more efficient than space heaters. We could
        get models with built-in timers to ensure they're not left on by
        accident after people leave the space / set them to turn on
        before people arrive on open nights.
      Cons: Would have to invest in buying more heaters. Are still
        fairly inefficient.
      Estimated cost: Lidl currently have convection radiators for
        £30 - if we bought 3 or 4 that's £100-120 (but we might need
        more). Plus electricity bills.

      Does anyone have any other suggestions? There were a couple
        of ideas brought forward at the meeting but I can't remember
        them now :S

      I'm going to check what kind of budget we've got available
        for this as we've just bought the Henry hoover and Samuel has
        proposed some costs for the consumables store, but as this is a
        fairly essential and urgent thing I'd really like to sort out a
        solution as soon as possible.

      Em

        --

        Emma O'Sullivan

        07810 442044
        e...@ejosullivan.com
        Twitter:
              @ejosully

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*Condensation*
With a workshop containing lots of steel objects, we may need to be aware
that condensation can be a problem. It can led to severe deterioration in
steel machinery and parts. Condensation is a result of fluctuations in
temperature, especially if people (especially many people) are using an
area that is poorly ventilated. The problems that can arise are
1. Condensation on machinery/parts - made worse if the room has been full
of people (who will exhale damp air) and the interior space is not
ventilated
2. Condensation on cold roofs/walls - as above but also due to poor design.
Walls/ceilings that allow water vapour to circulate between the
cold outside layer and the (high humidity) interior are quite prone to this
effect. Water condenses on the cold layer and can be a cause of problems -
rotten wood frames in timber framed houses (if the vapour barrier has been
damaged).
Insulation can reduce temperature fluctuation but if the space is unused
for a period it will eventually cool down even with insulation.
Ventilation will avoid this problem, but will work against keeping the
space warm. Perhaps we need to have a ventilation system specifically to
combat condensation (i.e. we can turn it on after people have been using
the space or when the temperature falls and the humidity increases to the
dew point).

Insulation on walls and ceilings should ideally be vapour-proof so that
water does not condense. However this is not easy to arrange.
I am not sure how serious a problem condensation on machinery is, but maybe
we need to monitor for this. Keeping everything oily is
one strategy to combat this (e.g. spray with 3-in-one).
*Heating*
Of course I would like to see the space having an affordable heating
system. I'm not sure there is going to be a huge difference between space
heaters and oil-filled rads. I did find external air heat pumps
on the internet but they cost about £1200 for about 7KW and the performance
will suffer a lot in cold weather. Because they have an external radiator
and pipes connecting this to the unit inside that heats they are
not that simple to install.
Samuel

-adrian

I would agree that heating the space with gas does generate water vapour as
I found out in my previous but over time it dried out the building and the
condensation (mostly on the inside of main outside windows, I just kept the
sash window slightly open to provide air flow) was a lot less than when I
first moved in. Gas heaters have a drying effect on the air.

1) +1 to have celling fans to draw the cold air up and then push the warm
air down. It also has the added bonus it can cool the space in summer
months.

2) Also believe we should fit a fan heater above the main door to act as a
heat curtain, which will stop that cold rush of air when someone goes to
open the front door.  

3) Also obtain a industrial size dehumidifier to keep the condensation in
check for the whole space (workshop & clean area & kitchen)

Chris

Doh, forgot to add this *previous* flat

On 14 Nov 2012, at 08:43, Samuel Wright <longbea...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks guys, this is all really good info.

So it looks like the first things to do are to properly insulate the space
and fit some ceiling fans to get air circulating.

To be honest I really don't know anything at all about insulation - happy
to help out with fitting it, but if anyone is available on Monday / Tuesday
/ Wednesday evening next week and can meet up at the space to help plan
this that would be awesome.

I'll take a look at our current funds before then to see how much we can
spare for supplies. At this point I don't think getting the gas heater
fitted is a feasible option as we don't have the cash available at the
moment - the other thing that worries me about it is that if we end up
outgrowing the space and moving in the next year or two, it's a massive
outgoing to spend on something that we can't take with us.

Em

On 14 November 2012 10:23, Mike Pountney <Mike.Pount...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, I would be interested in being involved in this as I am quite into energy efficiency/renewables etc.  I dont have much a lot of hand knowledge but am technically fairly sensible. We might be able to get finding from outside sources for this by the way, something to consider. I would be free mon/tues next week, weds not so good for me. Will
 From: e...@ejosullivan.com
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:09:04 +0000
Subject: Re: [brighton-hacker-space] Heating the hackspace - what shall we do?
To: brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com

Thanks guys, this is all really good info.
So it looks like the first things to do are to properly insulate the space and fit some ceiling fans to get air circulating.
To be honest I really don't know anything at all about insulation - happy to help out with fitting it, but if anyone is available on Monday / Tuesday / Wednesday evening next week and can meet up at the space to help plan this that would be awesome.

I'll take a look at our current funds before then to see how much we can spare for supplies. At this point I don't think getting the gas heater fitted is a feasible option as we don't have the cash available at the moment - the other thing that worries me about it is that if we end up outgrowing the space and moving in the next year or two, it's a massive outgoing to spend on something that we can't take with us.

Em

On 14 November 2012 10:23, Mike Pountney <Mike.Pount...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 14 Nov 2012, at 08:43, Samuel Wright <longbea...@gmail.com> wrote:

Condensation

With a workshop containing lots of steel objects, we may need to be aware that condensation can be a problem. It can led to severe deterioration in steel machinery and parts. Condensation is a result of fluctuations in temperature, especially if people (especially many people) are using an area that is poorly ventilated.

This, incidentally, is why I've bought the cover for the Lathe -- it should cut down the amount of condensation settling on it.

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Was just having a look round on ebay and found this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Xpelair-6kw-fan-heater-WH-60-/281017174951?...
6kw commercial fan heater

*Matt*

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Emma O'Sullivan <e...@ejosullivan.com>wrote:

That looks interesting, even if we buy it new (£300! Cheap!)

Definitely would be easier to get an electric heater attached to a wall than getting gas plumbed into the huge heater.  

On the insulation tip, we regrettably do not have any insulation between our unit and the Fablab room -- we missed a trick when the wall was put up :( -- so this would be the first place i'd look for places where heat is escaping. Considering how bad the paint fumes were when the graf artist was in there, I'd say there'll be a fair draught between the two.

On 14 Nov 2012, at 11:18, Matthew Edwards <talkingj...@gmail.com> wrote:

+1 on the electric heater. I don't have a great deal of experience of de-humidifiers but I would suggest that we hold off on that until all else (improved heating and insulation) fails.  I have a feeling de-humidifiers are quite energy thirsty and if we can keep the place comfortably warm we should not have such a big problem with condensate forming.  Maybe we should focus also on where we have exposed structural steelwork, this is where I would expect condensate to be nucleating. On the other hand I would support hiring one for a one-off blast though, when the other issues have been attended to, to give us a dry-ish start point... Will
 From: Mike.Pount...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [brighton-hacker-space] Heating the hackspace - what shall we do?
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:26:26 +0000
To: brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com

That looks interesting, even if we buy it new (£300! Cheap!)
Definitely would be easier to get an electric heater attached to a wall than getting gas plumbed into the huge heater.  
On the insulation tip, we regrettably do not have any insulation between our unit and the Fablab room -- we missed a trick when the wall was put up :( -- so this would be the first place i'd look for places where heat is escaping. Considering how bad the paint fumes were when the graf artist was in there, I'd say there'll be a fair draught between the two.

On 14 Nov 2012, at 11:18, Matthew Edwards <talkingj...@gmail.com> wrote:Was just having a look round on ebay and found this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Xpelair-6kw-fan-heater-WH-60-/281017174951?... - 6kw commercial fan heater

Matt

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Will Harley <will_har...@hotmail.com>wrote:

Ideally, all unpainted surfaces (including items kept in storage) should be
lightly oiled or waxed but this is pretty hard to do unless you have
someone dedicated to doing it regularly.

Fair points, esp.if we use free-standing internal gas heaters.   I assume the big gas heater (if we use it) would exhaust all combustion products (including water vapour) to the outside world.  If we go electric this will be less of a problem also. Whatever happens we will still have lots of breathing people in there (hopefully!) so de-humidifiers might still be necessary.  Lets keep all options open. Will
 Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:19:03 +0000
Subject: Re: [brighton-hacker-space] Heating the hackspace - what shall we do?
From: artgod...@gmail.com
To: brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

This is slightly OT, but I think it's also worth mentioning that we need to improve the fume extraction in the workshop -- naturally this will have an impact on the heating and insulation of that room.

We had discussed putting (clear, 30cm strips) PVC  curtains between the two halves of the workshop, to cut down dust in the clean half. It might be worth thinking about how we separate these rooms from a heat loss perspective as well -- the dirty side needs good extraction, which means more warm air getting sucked out.

On 14 Nov 2012, at 13:36, Will Harley <will_har...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Or, OTT: Closed circuit ventilation for the workshop (wont suck warmth out of the main room)OTTT: Put a small heat pump (hacked watercooler refrigerator?) between the outgoing and incoming air to scavenge the heat back and add a bit from the pump motor.
 From: Mike.Pount...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [brighton-hacker-space] Heating the hackspace - what shall we do?
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:59:31 +0000
To: brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com

This is slightly OT, but I think it's also worth mentioning that we need to improve the fume extraction in the workshop -- naturally this will have an impact on the heating and insulation of that room.
We had discussed putting (clear, 30cm strips) PVC  curtains between the two halves of the workshop, to cut down dust in the clean half. It might be worth thinking about how we separate these rooms from a heat loss perspective as well -- the dirty side needs good extraction, which means more warm air getting sucked out.

On 14 Nov 2012, at 13:36, Will Harley <will_har...@hotmail.com> wrote:Fair points, esp.if we use free-standing internal gas heaters.  

I assume the big gas heater (if we use it) would exhaust all combustion products (including water vapour) to the outside world.  If we go electric this will be less of a problem also.

Whatever happens we will still have lots of breathing people in there (hopefully!) so de-humidifiers might still be necessary.  Lets keep all options open.

Will

Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:19:03 +0000
Subject: Re: [brighton-hacker-space] Heating the hackspace - what shall we do?
From: artgod...@gmail.com
To: brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

The heater would also require at least yearly maintenance -- i'll find out the cost of this too.

I think as protection for machinery and parts, a dew point detector -
perhaps triggering an alarm would useful. The dew point detector can detect
when the relative humidity reaches a trigger point - say 98% or even 100%.
This could  be used activate heating and/or dehumidifier and/or
ventilation. Or it could log events. I am not sure how affordable such a
dewpoint detector is however.
 Covers like the lath cover  and storage drawers for tool (e.g. lath
cutters) may appear to limit condensation but they also trap damp air  and
liquid water whereas in a ventilated space, damp air will be removed and
water will evaporate faster. The cover for the lathe is an excellent idea
but I feel we should prevent all condensation and also  have a way of
monitoring for it (in case something goes wrong) to prevent deterioration
of tools bits and parts.

+1 to matt's electric heater.

At the risk of opening a can of worms,

What about a solid fuel stove? They aren't _that_ expensive new (~£400
looking on ebay, though not sure what the bits to put a flue in would come
to) and we ought to be able to get a certain amount of wood for free from
other Rodhus occupants. Even if we have to buy wood - it's available:
http://www.jimmillerdesign.co.uk/blog/2012/11/08/sussex-seasoned-fire...

This works out in the region of 5p/kwh versus 15p/kwh for electricity, and
WAY more for bottled gas (we do have to pay for electricity don't we? if
not then it's a no brainer - lots of fan heaters)

It'd need to be combined with mounted or free standing electric heaters I
suppose for when it's not really that cold, or when there's only one or two
people in.....

The safety aspect is certainly a concern - we'd have to ensure it was out
when the space was left for the evening.

We could even get one with a back boiler & put a radiator in the
workshop.....

it's really just a thought, - I don't know if we'd be allowed, and I don't
know if it's a good idea, but the glow of a real fire would be fab.....

James