When I visited the Victoria hackspace in Canada, they got me to sign a liability waiver before touching any equipment there. It was really well written, so I asked permission to poach its contents for our own purposes. They are totally happy with this - they poached it from the Vancouver hackspace. They get anyone who is going to use any of the equipment to sign it, not just members.
Anyhoo, here it is, adjusted with some additional info (contact details, etc) and a small amount of rewording to better fit with our operation.
Comments welcome, and if you know a friendly lawyer we can run this by to ensure it is legally binding then that would be a massive help.
I, the undersigned, hereby acknowledge that I fully understand that woodworking, metalworking, welding, power tool use, and any other workshop activities are inherently dangerous and may require strenuous physical exertion, and that the areas where the abovementioned activities are conducted contain many known and unknown hazards.
I acknowledge and understand that my participation in any activities at BuildBrighton count result in my exposure to serious peronal injury, illness, disability or death.
I also acknowledge that property losses can occur, and acknowledge that BuildBrighton does not accept any liaibility for any personal property stored on the premises.
I understand that BuildBrighton has guidelines for safe work practice and I agree to follow these and maintain the highest level of safe work practices for myself and others.
In participating in activities at BuildBrighton, I acknowledge that I am 18 years of age or older, and am legally responsible for my own actions. Also, I hereby for myself, my heirs, executors, administrators, successors and assigns, release and forever discharge BuildBrighton, its members, board, and any other person or organisation assisting it from any and all actions, causes of actions, claims and demands for, upon or by reason of any damange, loss or injury to person and property which heretofore as been or hereafter may be sustained in consequence of any accident occurring during a Build Brighton activity or my use of the facilities.
I am responsible for my own safety at BuildBrighton. This includes safe tool operation, ensuring that tools are in proper working order, and that they are used safely and responsibly. Other members may advise me on safe work practices, but this does not constitute a supervisory relationship and responsibility for safety using BuildBrighton facilities lies entirely on myself.
I agree that this waiver and the agreements it contains will be governed and interpreted exclusively in accordance with the laws of the United Kingdom.
I agree that if any portion of this agreement is found to be unenforceable, the remaining portions of this agreement shall remain in full force and effect.
I confirm that I have read and understood this agreement prior to signing it.
I further confirm that the terms and conditions of this agreement will apply to any minor that accompanies me, and that I am the legal guardian or parent of any such minors. Accordingly I have the authority to sign this document on their behalf. I agree to remain responsible for the supervision and safety of any such minors, and acknowledge that if I subsequently delegate this responsibilty to a third party, that this third party is acting under my instruction, and that the conditions set out in this agreement still apply.
Signed by:
Print name:
Dated:
Full names of Minors:
Contact telephone number (*):
Contact email address (*):
Contact name and mobile in case of emergency (+):
(*) This information is private to this agreement, and will only be used to contact you in matters related to health and safety of the BuildBrighton and its operation.
(+) Please list the details of a person you would like to be contacted in the event of an accident or other issue, ideally that knows your medical history and is local. This information is entirely private to this agreement, and will only be used in case of emergency.
Whilst I agree with the idea of the waiver, I'm not sure how well it would stand legally. I think it needs to be checked with a solicitor first, and even then without plastering every piece of equipment in warning signs, providing suitable safety equipment, ensuring all the kit is regularly tested (and logged) by qualified engineers, having all members trained by a qualified expert and having someone to oversee people are stuff correctly, I think BB would struggle to get out of any arising law suit. Simply saying "I'm responsible for my own actions" probably won't cut it - especially in today's "blame = claim" culture. The laws in Canada maybe different and so maybe this waiver holds some weight there. There are many "legal" documents that are just total rubbish. As far as I understand it, "Trespassers will be prosecuted" is a good example. Trespassing is a civil matter and not a legal one, so a sign on your front gate means nothing.
Incidentally, there's a spelling mistake in paragraph 2. Shouldn't read "could result" not "count result".
> When I visited the Victoria hackspace in Canada, they got me to sign a liability waiver before touching any equipment there. It was really well written, so I asked permission to poach its contents for our own purposes. They are totally happy with this - they poached it from the Vancouver hackspace. They get anyone who is going to use any of the equipment to sign it, not just members.
> Anyhoo, here it is, adjusted with some additional info (contact details, etc) and a small amount of rewording to better fit with our operation.
> Comments welcome, and if you know a friendly lawyer we can run this by to ensure it is legally binding then that would be a massive help.
> I, the undersigned, hereby acknowledge that I fully understand that woodworking, metalworking, welding, power tool use, and any other workshop activities are inherently dangerous and may require strenuous physical exertion, and that the areas where the abovementioned activities are conducted contain many known and unknown hazards.
> I acknowledge and understand that my participation in any activities at BuildBrighton count result in my exposure to serious peronal injury, illness, disability or death.
> I also acknowledge that property losses can occur, and acknowledge that BuildBrighton does not accept any liaibility for any personal property stored on the premises.
> I understand that BuildBrighton has guidelines for safe work practice and I agree to follow these and maintain the highest level of safe work practices for myself and others.
> In participating in activities at BuildBrighton, I acknowledge that I am 18 years of age or older, and am legally responsible for my own actions. Also, I hereby for myself, my heirs, executors, administrators, successors and assigns, release and forever discharge BuildBrighton, its members, board, and any other person or organisation assisting it from any and all actions, causes of actions, claims and demands for, upon or by reason of any damange, loss or injury to person and property which heretofore as been or hereafter may be sustained in consequence of any accident occurring during a Build Brighton activity or my use of the facilities.
> I am responsible for my own safety at BuildBrighton. This includes safe tool operation, ensuring that tools are in proper working order, and that they are used safely and responsibly. Other members may advise me on safe work practices, but this does not constitute a supervisory relationship and responsibility for safety using BuildBrighton facilities lies entirely on myself.
> I agree that this waiver and the agreements it contains will be governed and interpreted exclusively in accordance with the laws of the United Kingdom.
> I agree that if any portion of this agreement is found to be unenforceable, the remaining portions of this agreement shall remain in full force and effect.
> I confirm that I have read and understood this agreement prior to signing it.
> I further confirm that the terms and conditions of this agreement will apply to any minor that accompanies me, and that I am the legal guardian or parent of any such minors. Accordingly I have the authority to sign this document on their behalf. I agree to remain responsible for the supervision and safety of any such minors, and acknowledge that if I subsequently delegate this responsibilty to a third party, that this third party is acting under my instruction, and that the conditions set out in this agreement still apply.
> Signed by:
> Print name:
> Dated:
> Full names of Minors:
> Contact telephone number (*):
> Contact email address (*):
> Contact name and mobile in case of emergency (+):
> (*) This information is private to this agreement, and will only be used to contact you in matters related to health and safety of the BuildBrighton and its operation.
> (+) Please list the details of a person you would like to be contacted in the event of an accident or other issue, ideally that knows your medical history and is local. This information is entirely private to this agreement, and will only be used in case of emergency.
Speaking from experience, that waiver becomes practically null and void the moment all the legal health and safety checks, certificates and equipment are not present in the workshops, and you then again are liable to be sued regardless of what the waiver says.
A bit extreme, but think of it this way... you sign a waiver that you are going to allow a college student with no medical degree or health and safety checks, or anything to keep you safe, perform surgery on you. Regardless of signing a waver, it is still against the law, and the student would be sued.
Much like Simon, I love the idea of it, but a lot of changes would be needed to allow it to stand up to law in this country.
- Justin
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Simon @ ICbaby <si...@icbaby.com> wrote:
> Whilst I agree with the idea of the waiver, I'm not sure how well it would > stand legally. > I think it needs to be checked with a solicitor first, and even then > without plastering every piece of equipment in warning signs, providing > suitable safety equipment, ensuring all the kit is regularly tested (and > logged) by qualified engineers, having all members trained by a qualified > expert and having someone to oversee people are stuff correctly, I think BB > would struggle to get out of any arising law suit. Simply saying "I'm > responsible for my own actions" probably won't cut it - especially in > today's "blame = claim" culture. The laws in Canada maybe different and so > maybe this waiver holds some weight there. > There are many "legal" documents that are just total rubbish. As far as I > understand it, "Trespassers will be prosecuted" is a good example. > Trespassing is a civil matter and not a legal one, so a sign on your front > gate means nothing.
> Incidentally, there's a spelling mistake in paragraph 2. Shouldn't read > "could result" not "count result".
> On 01/02/2012 13:43, Mike Pountney wrote:
>> When I visited the Victoria hackspace in Canada, they got me to sign a >> liability waiver before touching any equipment there. It was really well >> written, so I asked permission to poach its contents for our own purposes. >> They are totally happy with this - they poached it from the Vancouver >> hackspace. They get anyone who is going to use any of the equipment to sign >> it, not just members.
>> Anyhoo, here it is, adjusted with some additional info (contact details, >> etc) and a small amount of rewording to better fit with our operation.
>> Comments welcome, and if you know a friendly lawyer we can run this by to >> ensure it is legally binding then that would be a massive help.
>> I, the undersigned, hereby acknowledge that I fully understand that >> woodworking, metalworking, welding, power tool use, and any other workshop >> activities are inherently dangerous and may require strenuous physical >> exertion, and that the areas where the abovementioned activities are >> conducted contain many known and unknown hazards.
>> I acknowledge and understand that my participation in any activities at >> BuildBrighton count result in my exposure to serious peronal injury, >> illness, disability or death.
>> I also acknowledge that property losses can occur, and acknowledge that >> BuildBrighton does not accept any liaibility for any personal property >> stored on the premises.
>> I understand that BuildBrighton has guidelines for safe work practice and >> I agree to follow these and maintain the highest level of safe work >> practices for myself and others.
>> In participating in activities at BuildBrighton, I acknowledge that I am >> 18 years of age or older, and am legally responsible for my own actions. >> Also, I hereby for myself, my heirs, executors, administrators, successors >> and assigns, release and forever discharge BuildBrighton, its members, >> board, and any other person or organisation assisting it from any and all >> actions, causes of actions, claims and demands for, upon or by reason of >> any damange, loss or injury to person and property which heretofore as been >> or hereafter may be sustained in consequence of any accident occurring >> during a Build Brighton activity or my use of the facilities.
>> I am responsible for my own safety at BuildBrighton. This includes safe >> tool operation, ensuring that tools are in proper working order, and that >> they are used safely and responsibly. Other members may advise me on safe >> work practices, but this does not constitute a supervisory relationship and >> responsibility for safety using BuildBrighton facilities lies entirely on >> myself.
>> I agree that this waiver and the agreements it contains will be governed >> and interpreted exclusively in accordance with the laws of the United >> Kingdom.
>> I agree that if any portion of this agreement is found to be >> unenforceable, the remaining portions of this agreement shall remain in >> full force and effect.
>> I confirm that I have read and understood this agreement prior to signing >> it.
>> I further confirm that the terms and conditions of this agreement will >> apply to any minor that accompanies me, and that I am the legal guardian or >> parent of any such minors. Accordingly I have the authority to sign this >> document on their behalf. I agree to remain responsible for the supervision >> and safety of any such minors, and acknowledge that if I subsequently >> delegate this responsibilty to a third party, that this third party is >> acting under my instruction, and that the conditions set out in this >> agreement still apply.
>> Signed by:
>> Print name:
>> Dated:
>> Full names of Minors:
>> Contact telephone number (*):
>> Contact email address (*):
>> Contact name and mobile in case of emergency (+):
>> (*) This information is private to this agreement, and will only be used >> to contact you in matters related to health and safety of the BuildBrighton >> and its operation.
>> (+) Please list the details of a person you would like to be contacted in >> the event of an accident or other issue, ideally that knows your medical >> history and is local. This information is entirely private to this >> agreement, and will only be used in case of emergency.
>> ---------------------
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@** > googlegroups.com <brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com>. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brightonhackerspace+** > unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<brightonhackerspace%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups .com> > . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** > group/brightonhackerspace?hl=**en<http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en> > .
> Speaking from experience, that waiver becomes practically null and void the moment all the legal health and safety checks, certificates and equipment are not present in the workshops, and you then again are liable to be sued regardless of what the waiver says.
Yup, we need that in place too.
> A bit extreme, but think of it this way... you sign a waiver that you are going to allow a college student with no medical degree or health and safety checks, or anything to keep you safe, perform surgery on you. Regardless of signing a waver, it is still against the law, and the student would be sued.
Totally, bar in my understanding we do not have any equipment on site that needs a professional qualification to use. There is a potential issue with respect to showing someone how to use a tool (as in, do you need a professional qualification to teach welding, for example), and this is an area where we really should consult a lawyer. We're still working on the principle that all of these skills could be taught to you by your mate in his/your garage, and applying that same principle to our community.
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Simon @ ICbaby <si...@icbaby.com> wrote: > Whilst I agree with the idea of the waiver, I'm not sure how well it would stand legally. > I think it needs to be checked with a solicitor first, and even then without plastering every piece of equipment in warning signs, providing suitable safety equipment, ensuring all the kit is regularly tested (and logged) by qualified engineers, having all members trained by a qualified expert and having someone to oversee people are stuff correctly, I think BB would struggle to get out of any arising law suit. Simply saying "I'm responsible for my own actions" probably won't cut it - especially in today's "blame = claim" culture. The laws in Canada maybe different and so maybe this waiver holds some weight there. > There are many "legal" documents that are just total rubbish. As far as I understand it, "Trespassers will be prosecuted" is a good example. Trespassing is a civil matter and not a legal one, so a sign on your front gate means nothing.
Then we need to get the waiver / H&S process into a form where:
a) BB is not shown to be negligent b) We are comfortable (legally) with the notion of having an informal process for showing folk how to use equipment. If not, we change our process or remove the equipment from the workshop.
We need a solicitor to go over this, for sure - but I don't think that should stop us from getting this process in place immediately:
*) At present we have no documented process for highlighting the dangers in the space, so are currently in a worse position than if we implement a document that may not be fully legally binding.
*) It gives us the details of folk that have signed a document that we know not to be sufficiently binding, so can ensure that they resign a new document when it is available.
> Incidentally, there's a spelling mistake in paragraph 2. Shouldn't read "could result" not "count result".
Fixed, ta.
Again though, does anyone know a friendly solicitor?
/"We're still working on the principle that all of these skills could be taught to you by your mate in his/your garage, and applying that same principle to our community."/ - This definately needs checking legally. Being taught by a mate in his garage is a personal undertaking and you take your own risks. I would bet that the H&S laws would see an organisation like BB as a "public area" even though we are fee paying members not just a group of mates mucking about.
>> Speaking from experience, that waiver becomes practically null and >> void the moment all the legal health and safety checks, certificates >> and equipment are not present in the workshops, and you then again >> are liable to be sued regardless of what the waiver says.
> Yup, we need that in place too.
>> A bit extreme, but think of it this way... you sign a waiver that you >> are going to allow a college student with no medical degree or health >> and safety checks, or anything to keep you safe, perform surgery on >> you. Regardless of signing a waver, it is still against the law, and >> the student would be sued.
> Totally, bar in my understanding we do not have any equipment on site > that needs a professional qualification to use. There is a potential > issue with respect to showing someone how to use a tool (as in, do you > need a professional qualification to teach welding, for example), and > this is an area where we really should consult a lawyer. We're still > working on the principle that all of these skills could be taught to > you by your mate in his/your garage, and applying that same principle > to our community.
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Simon @ ICbaby <si...@icbaby.com >> <mailto:si...@icbaby.com>> wrote:
>> Whilst I agree with the idea of the waiver, I'm not sure how well >> it would stand legally.
>> I think it needs to be checked with a solicitor first, and even >> then without plastering every piece of equipment in warning >> signs, providing suitable safety equipment, ensuring all the kit >> is regularly tested (and logged) by qualified engineers, having >> all members trained by a qualified expert and having someone to >> oversee people are stuff correctly, I think BB would struggle to >> get out of any arising law suit. Simply saying "I'm responsible >> for my own actions" probably won't cut it - especially in today's >> "blame = claim" culture. The laws in Canada maybe different and >> so maybe this waiver holds some weight there. >> There are many "legal" documents that are just total rubbish. As >> far as I understand it, "Trespassers will be prosecuted" is a >> good example. Trespassing is a civil matter and not a legal one, >> so a sign on your front gate means nothing.
> Then we need to get the waiver / H&S process into a form where:
> a) BB is not shown to be negligent > b) We are comfortable (legally) with the notion of having an informal > process for showing folk how to use equipment. If not, we change our > process or remove the equipment from the workshop.
> We need a solicitor to go over this, for sure - but I don't think that > should stop us from getting this process in place immediately:
> *) At present we have no documented process for highlighting the > dangers in the space, so are currently in a worse position than if we > implement a document that may not be fully legally binding.
> *) It gives us the details of folk that have signed a document that we > know not to be sufficiently binding, so can ensure that they resign a > new document when it is available.
>> Incidentally, there's a spelling mistake in paragraph 2. >> Shouldn't read "could result" not "count result".
> Fixed, ta.
> Again though, does anyone know a friendly solicitor?
> Cheers,
> Mike
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
I for one am not happy about signing any waiver, and will not be doing so. At the end of the day, if I'm using dangerous equipment and someone knocks into me or the machine, there is no recompense for someone else's actions.
I do hope this will be brought up in the meeting tomorrow as this is not something to take on lightly, and I doubt the insurance company will not insure as for such action.
rather than constantly copying other groups, can we not work things out for OUR group, after all, we are in many ways a lot different fro other spaces. Jax
On 1 February 2012 15:00, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Speaking from experience, that waiver becomes practically null and void > the moment all the legal health and safety checks, certificates and > equipment are not present in the workshops, and you then again are liable > to be sued regardless of what the waiver says.
> Yup, we need that in place too.
> A bit extreme, but think of it this way... you sign a waiver that you are > going to allow a college student with no medical degree or health and > safety checks, or anything to keep you safe, perform surgery on you. > Regardless of signing a waver, it is still against the law, and the student > would be sued.
> Totally, bar in my understanding we do not have any equipment on site that > needs a professional qualification to use. There is a potential issue with > respect to showing someone how to use a tool (as in, do you need a > professional qualification to teach welding, for example), and this is an > area where we really should consult a lawyer. We're still working on the > principle that all of these skills could be taught to you by your mate in > his/your garage, and applying that same principle to our community.
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Simon @ ICbaby <si...@icbaby.com> wrote:
>> Whilst I agree with the idea of the waiver, I'm not sure how well it >> would stand legally.
> I think it needs to be checked with a solicitor first, and even then >> without plastering every piece of equipment in warning signs, providing >> suitable safety equipment, ensuring all the kit is regularly tested (and >> logged) by qualified engineers, having all members trained by a qualified >> expert and having someone to oversee people are stuff correctly, I think BB >> would struggle to get out of any arising law suit. Simply saying "I'm >> responsible for my own actions" probably won't cut it - especially in >> today's "blame = claim" culture. The laws in Canada maybe different and so >> maybe this waiver holds some weight there. >> There are many "legal" documents that are just total rubbish. As far as I >> understand it, "Trespassers will be prosecuted" is a good example. >> Trespassing is a civil matter and not a legal one, so a sign on your front >> gate means nothing.
> Then we need to get the waiver / H&S process into a form where:
> a) BB is not shown to be negligent > b) We are comfortable (legally) with the notion of having an informal > process for showing folk how to use equipment. If not, we change our > process or remove the equipment from the workshop.
> We need a solicitor to go over this, for sure - but I don't think that > should stop us from getting this process in place immediately:
> *) At present we have no documented process for highlighting the dangers > in the space, so are currently in a worse position than if we implement a > document that may not be fully legally binding.
> *) It gives us the details of folk that have signed a document that we > know not to be sufficiently binding, so can ensure that they resign a new > document when it is available.
> Incidentally, there's a spelling mistake in paragraph 2. Shouldn't read >> "could result" not "count result".
> Fixed, ta.
> Again though, does anyone know a friendly solicitor?
> Cheers,
> Mike
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
I'm going to have to agree with Jax, she has brought up a very good point. I too would refuse to sign anything that meant if I got bumped into by someone else being careless, leaving me with no leg to stand on.
I would much rather buy my own tools if that were the case, and actually do everything in my own garage (which is what I have been doing with my motorcycle).
- Justin
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Cyberswitch <cyberswitch2...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I for one am not happy about signing any waiver, and will not be doing so. > At the end of the day, if I'm using dangerous equipment and someone knocks > into me or the machine, there is no recompense for someone else's actions.
> I do hope this will be brought up in the meeting tomorrow as this is not > something to take on lightly, and I doubt the insurance company will not > insure as for such action.
> rather than constantly copying other groups, can we not work things out > for OUR group, after all, we are in many ways a lot different fro other > spaces. > Jax
> On 1 February 2012 15:00, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 1 Feb 2012, at 14:31, Justin Nel wrote:
>> Speaking from experience, that waiver becomes practically null and void >> the moment all the legal health and safety checks, certificates and >> equipment are not present in the workshops, and you then again are liable >> to be sued regardless of what the waiver says.
>> Yup, we need that in place too.
>> A bit extreme, but think of it this way... you sign a waiver that you are >> going to allow a college student with no medical degree or health and >> safety checks, or anything to keep you safe, perform surgery on you. >> Regardless of signing a waver, it is still against the law, and the student >> would be sued.
>> Totally, bar in my understanding we do not have any equipment on site >> that needs a professional qualification to use. There is a potential issue >> with respect to showing someone how to use a tool (as in, do you need a >> professional qualification to teach welding, for example), and this is an >> area where we really should consult a lawyer. We're still working on the >> principle that all of these skills could be taught to you by your mate in >> his/your garage, and applying that same principle to our community.
>> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Simon @ ICbaby <si...@icbaby.com> wrote:
>>> Whilst I agree with the idea of the waiver, I'm not sure how well it >>> would stand legally.
>> I think it needs to be checked with a solicitor first, and even then >>> without plastering every piece of equipment in warning signs, providing >>> suitable safety equipment, ensuring all the kit is regularly tested (and >>> logged) by qualified engineers, having all members trained by a qualified >>> expert and having someone to oversee people are stuff correctly, I think BB >>> would struggle to get out of any arising law suit. Simply saying "I'm >>> responsible for my own actions" probably won't cut it - especially in >>> today's "blame = claim" culture. The laws in Canada maybe different and so >>> maybe this waiver holds some weight there. >>> There are many "legal" documents that are just total rubbish. As far as >>> I understand it, "Trespassers will be prosecuted" is a good example. >>> Trespassing is a civil matter and not a legal one, so a sign on your front >>> gate means nothing.
>> Then we need to get the waiver / H&S process into a form where:
>> a) BB is not shown to be negligent >> b) We are comfortable (legally) with the notion of having an informal >> process for showing folk how to use equipment. If not, we change our >> process or remove the equipment from the workshop.
>> We need a solicitor to go over this, for sure - but I don't think that >> should stop us from getting this process in place immediately:
>> *) At present we have no documented process for highlighting the dangers >> in the space, so are currently in a worse position than if we implement a >> document that may not be fully legally binding.
>> *) It gives us the details of folk that have signed a document that we >> know not to be sufficiently binding, so can ensure that they resign a new >> document when it is available.
>> Incidentally, there's a spelling mistake in paragraph 2. Shouldn't read >>> "could result" not "count result".
>> Fixed, ta.
>> Again though, does anyone know a friendly solicitor?
>> Cheers,
>> Mike
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > *Jackie* > Team Robomods
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> I'm going to have to agree with Jax, she has brought up a very good point. I too would refuse to sign anything that meant if I got bumped into by someone else being careless, leaving me with no leg to stand on.
/me spots the pun ;)
The point is though, do we think that the hackspace should be liable if this occurred? Or the careless person?
How do we change the wording of the waiver to cover this?
Mike That's the question, there must be somewhere we can get free legal advice o this, after all we are a non-for profit organisation. However, I stand my ground in that, I will not sign a waiver. If it came to us having to do this, I'm afraid I'll just give up and go back to using my shed. Sorry, but that's how I feel. Jax
On 1 February 2012 15:42, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm going to have to agree with Jax, she has brought up a very good > point. I too would refuse to sign anything that meant if I got bumped into > by someone else being careless, leaving me with no leg to stand on.
> /me spots the pun ;)
> The point is though, do we think that the hackspace should be liable if > this occurred? Or the careless person?
> How do we change the wording of the waiver to cover this?
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
Why wouldn't you though? The world is full of companies and institutions that allow adults and children to do risky activities, whereby they put themselves in danger of death if they do not abide by the safety information given to them. They all protect themselves with a suitable waiver/disclaimer. Why shouldn't we?
Go-Ape (http://goape.co.uk) is a prime example - after a 30 minute instruction on how to safely connect to (and disconnect from) safety lines, they send you up 40ft into trees to mooch about. Kids too - 'under supervision'. Their insurance will be based on them having a legally binding disclaimer: http://goape.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Disclaimer.pdf
> Mike > That's the question, there must be somewhere we can get free legal advice o this, after all we are a non-for profit organisation. > However, I stand my ground in that, I will not sign a waiver. If it came to us having to do this, I'm afraid I'll just give up and go back to using my shed. > Sorry, but that's how I feel. > Jax
> On 1 February 2012 15:42, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:35, Justin Nel wrote:
> > I'm going to have to agree with Jax, she has brought up a very good point. I too would refuse to sign anything that meant if I got bumped into by someone else being careless, leaving me with no leg to stand on.
> /me spots the pun ;)
> The point is though, do we think that the hackspace should be liable if this occurred? Or the careless person?
> How do we change the wording of the waiver to cover this?
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > Jackie > Team Robomods
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
I am not putting my life in danger so why should I sign a waiver? Sounds like a cop out for insurance purposes rather than anything else We have security cameras in place for a reason ..... to protect us, same as insurance does.
On 1 February 2012 16:13, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why wouldn't you though? The world is full of companies and institutions > that allow adults and children to do risky activities, whereby they put > themselves in danger of death if they do not abide by the safety > information given to them. They all protect themselves with a suitable > waiver/disclaimer. Why shouldn't we?
> Go-Ape (http://goape.co.uk) is a prime example - after a 30 minute > instruction on how to safely connect to (and disconnect from) safety lines, > they send you up 40ft into trees to mooch about. Kids too - 'under > supervision'. Their insurance will be based on them having a legally > binding disclaimer: > http://goape.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Disclaimer.pdf
> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:47, Cyberswitch wrote:
> Mike > That's the question, there must be somewhere we can get free legal advice > o this, after all we are a non-for profit organisation. > However, I stand my ground in that, I will not sign a waiver. If it came > to us having to do this, I'm afraid I'll just give up and go back to using > my shed. > Sorry, but that's how I feel. > Jax
> On 1 February 2012 15:42, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:35, Justin Nel wrote:
>> > I'm going to have to agree with Jax, she has brought up a very good >> point. I too would refuse to sign anything that meant if I got bumped into >> by someone else being careless, leaving me with no leg to stand on.
>> /me spots the pun ;)
>> The point is though, do we think that the hackspace should be liable if >> this occurred? Or the careless person?
>> How do we change the wording of the waiver to cover this?
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > *Jackie* > Team Robomods
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
Mike, I think the main issue Jax has is more so, a waiver saying nobody is to blame is a no-no, but a waiver which clearly states who is at fault for scenarios, etc would be more acceptable, but something that simply tries to wipe BB from all liability is simply not acceptable.
Go-Ape do not wipe themselves completely from blame, as if any of their equipment is at fault, they get sued. If their staff are not trained or fail to explain everything correctly, they get sued. If somebody else tampers with your equipment which ends up putting you in harms way, and it is in no way your fault, they get sued as their supervisors did not do their jobs correctly. Their waiver is more so to help them get insurance and less about taking zero blame, and I know people who work there funnily enough who can vouch this all to be true.
- Justin
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Cyberswitch <cyberswitch2...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I am not putting my life in danger so why should I sign a waiver? > Sounds like a cop out for insurance purposes rather than anything else > We have security cameras in place for a reason ..... to protect us, same > as insurance does.
> On 1 February 2012 16:13, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Why wouldn't you though? The world is full of companies and institutions >> that allow adults and children to do risky activities, whereby they put >> themselves in danger of death if they do not abide by the safety >> information given to them. They all protect themselves with a suitable >> waiver/disclaimer. Why shouldn't we?
>> Go-Ape (http://goape.co.uk) is a prime example - after a 30 minute >> instruction on how to safely connect to (and disconnect from) safety lines, >> they send you up 40ft into trees to mooch about. Kids too - 'under >> supervision'. Their insurance will be based on them having a legally >> binding disclaimer: >> http://goape.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Disclaimer.pdf
>> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:47, Cyberswitch wrote:
>> Mike >> That's the question, there must be somewhere we can get free legal advice >> o this, after all we are a non-for profit organisation. >> However, I stand my ground in that, I will not sign a waiver. If it came >> to us having to do this, I'm afraid I'll just give up and go back to using >> my shed. >> Sorry, but that's how I feel. >> Jax
>> On 1 February 2012 15:42, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:35, Justin Nel wrote:
>>> > I'm going to have to agree with Jax, she has brought up a very good >>> point. I too would refuse to sign anything that meant if I got bumped into >>> by someone else being careless, leaving me with no leg to stand on.
>>> /me spots the pun ;)
>>> The point is though, do we think that the hackspace should be liable if >>> this occurred? Or the careless person?
>>> How do we change the wording of the waiver to cover this?
>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to >>> brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
>> -- >> *Jackie* >> Team Robomods
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > *Jackie* > Team Robomods
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
You're only signing to say you acknowledge there is a danger and that you agree to follow the safety guidelines they have given you. If they could completely absolve themselves of any liability they wouldn't need insurance.
> Why wouldn't you though? The world is full of companies and > institutions that allow adults and children to do risky activities, > whereby they put themselves in danger of death if they do not abide by > the safety information given to them. They all protect themselves with > a suitable waiver/disclaimer. Why shouldn't we?
> Go-Ape (http://goape.co.uk) is a prime example - after a 30 minute > instruction on how to safely connect to (and disconnect from) safety > lines, they send you up 40ft into trees to mooch about. Kids too - > 'under supervision'. Their insurance will be based on them having a > legally binding disclaimer: > http://goape.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Disclaimer.pdf
> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:47, Cyberswitch wrote:
>> Mike >> That's the question, there must be somewhere we can get free legal >> advice o this, after all we are a non-for profit organisation. >> However, I stand my ground in that, I will not sign a waiver. If it >> came to us having to do this, I'm afraid I'll just give up and go >> back to using my shed. >> Sorry, but that's how I feel. >> Jax
>> On 1 February 2012 15:42, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com >> <mailto:mike.pount...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:35, Justin Nel wrote:
>> > I'm going to have to agree with Jax, she has brought up a very >> good point. I too would refuse to sign anything that meant if I >> got bumped into by someone else being careless, leaving me with >> no leg to stand on.
>> /me spots the pun ;)
>> The point is though, do we think that the hackspace should be >> liable if this occurred? Or the careless person?
>> How do we change the wording of the waiver to cover this?
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com>. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:brightonhackerspace%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
>> -- >> /Jackie/ >> Team Robomods
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com>. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
Not another lame waiver! I've seen these many times during my previous career in insurance sales & claims, and they are not worth the rice paper they are written on!
In the UK we have laws to follow Mike, Laws such as HASAWA (Health & safety at work act, 1998) in which it gives a legal obligation for employers (or in the case of BB, you directors) to provide a safe work enviroment for your employees (again this correspondes to BB's members). No waiver can override this legal obligation
Then of course there is the issue of machine maintenance, your waiver implies it is the duty of the user to check the equipment is safe to use, so do we have to take the laser cutter apart and check for damage at every use? Also, does membership now include a Free PAT testing course to test appliacences before we plug them in?
It's all to easy to copy foreign hackspaces and to Plow into the assumption that because they get away with it, BuildBtighton in the UK can too, but i for one insist i shall not sign any such waiver, and urge the rest of you to boycott the idea too.
Can we all safely go into BB and use any equipment, knowing that if any accident occurs, there is no insurance policy to help you adjust your lifestyle, pay your mortgage or even feed your families following the loss of a limb?
Just my two cents, Rev Dave
Sent from my iPod
On 1 Feb 2012, at 16:18, Cyberswitch <cyberswitch2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am not putting my life in danger so why should I sign a waiver? > Sounds like a cop out for insurance purposes rather than anything else > We have security cameras in place for a reason ..... to protect us, same as insurance does.
> On 1 February 2012 16:13, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why wouldn't you though? The world is full of companies and institutions that allow adults and children to do risky activities, whereby they put themselves in danger of death if they do not abide by the safety information given to them. They all protect themselves with a suitable waiver/disclaimer. Why shouldn't we?
> Go-Ape (http://goape.co.uk) is a prime example - after a 30 minute instruction on how to safely connect to (and disconnect from) safety lines, they send you up 40ft into trees to mooch about. Kids too - 'under supervision'. Their insurance will be based on them having a legally binding disclaimer: http://goape.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Disclaimer.pdf
> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:47, Cyberswitch wrote:
>> Mike >> That's the question, there must be somewhere we can get free legal advice o this, after all we are a non-for profit organisation. >> However, I stand my ground in that, I will not sign a waiver. If it came to us having to do this, I'm afraid I'll just give up and go back to using my shed. >> Sorry, but that's how I feel. >> Jax
>> On 1 February 2012 15:42, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:35, Justin Nel wrote:
>> > I'm going to have to agree with Jax, she has brought up a very good point. I too would refuse to sign anything that meant if I got bumped into by someone else being careless, leaving me with no leg to stand on.
>> /me spots the pun ;)
>> The point is though, do we think that the hackspace should be liable if this occurred? Or the careless person?
>> How do we change the wording of the waiver to cover this?
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
>> -- >> Jackie >> Team Robomods
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > Jackie > Team Robomods
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
If we were in it to sue BB then waivers would have been implemented years ago. How would the waiver effect equipment on loan to BB? There is a LOT of equipment there that BB would not be responsible for. I'm still not convinced that a waiver would be a good idea. there has already been an incident, which caused a lot of damage to an item on loan to BB that the owner of said equipment had to shell out for replacement parts. how would a waiver 'cover' this in future?
Justin ... Thanks for putting my view so eloquently ;)
Jax
On 1 February 2012 16:20, Simon @ ICbaby <si...@icbaby.com> wrote:
> You're only signing to say you acknowledge there is a danger and that you > agree to follow the safety guidelines they have given you. > If they could completely absolve themselves of any liability they wouldn't > need insurance.
> On 01/02/2012 16:13, Mike Pountney wrote:
> Why wouldn't you though? The world is full of companies and institutions > that allow adults and children to do risky activities, whereby they put > themselves in danger of death if they do not abide by the safety > information given to them. They all protect themselves with a suitable > waiver/disclaimer. Why shouldn't we?
> Go-Ape (http://goape.co.uk) is a prime example - after a 30 minute > instruction on how to safely connect to (and disconnect from) safety lines, > they send you up 40ft into trees to mooch about. Kids too - 'under > supervision'. Their insurance will be based on them having a legally > binding disclaimer: > http://goape.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Disclaimer.pdf
> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:47, Cyberswitch wrote:
> Mike > That's the question, there must be somewhere we can get free legal advice > o this, after all we are a non-for profit organisation. > However, I stand my ground in that, I will not sign a waiver. If it came > to us having to do this, I'm afraid I'll just give up and go back to using > my shed. > Sorry, but that's how I feel. > Jax
> On 1 February 2012 15:42, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 1 Feb 2012, at 15:35, Justin Nel wrote:
>> > I'm going to have to agree with Jax, she has brought up a very good >> point. I too would refuse to sign anything that meant if I got bumped into >> by someone else being careless, leaving me with no leg to stand on.
>> /me spots the pun ;)
>> The point is though, do we think that the hackspace should be liable if >> this occurred? Or the careless person?
>> How do we change the wording of the waiver to cover this?
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > *Jackie* > Team Robomods
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
When we wanted a laser cutter, everyone who could, and wanted it to happen. chipped in an made it happen. We we wanted a 3d printer, the same thing applied. Why don't we have a whip-round, raise �100 or so and buy some solicitor time to get this sorted out? The CAB might be a cheap place to start. Everyone is guessing about what is and isn't enforceable by law - we need advice!
As an aside, when I was running poker leagues in the pubs a few years ago, we had very definite rules regarding gambling. In a pub or other publicly accessible place, we had to abide by the Gaming Act (no playing for real money). But where we had people competing in our leagues from private members clubs, they did not have to abide by the same laws as applicable for public spaces. (this is why until recent changes in the Gaming Act you had to join and wait 24hrs to play bingo online - you were playing as a member of a private club, not as a member of the public). I'd hope that the same sort of thing exists for our scenario - we don't just let anyone walk in off the street, they have to be accompanied by a member (since someone has to open up/lock-up though perhaps we'd need to make Thursday "open nights" a "bring-along-a-friend" night to be totally compliant with the definition of a private members club).
But the point is, we need to get advice. I can send a tenner via PayPal or bank transfer to get the ball rolling. Wish is was more but January was a long month after being paid so early before Xmas!
> When we wanted a laser cutter, everyone who could, and wanted it to happen. chipped in an made it happen. We we wanted a 3d printer, the same thing applied. > Why don't we have a whip-round, raise £100 or so and buy some solicitor time to get this sorted out? The CAB might be a cheap place to start. > Everyone is guessing about what is and isn't enforceable by law - we need advice!
> As an aside, when I was running poker leagues in the pubs a few years ago, we had very definite rules regarding gambling. > In a pub or other publicly accessible place, we had to abide by the Gaming Act (no playing for real money). But where we had people competing in our leagues from private members clubs, they did not have to abide by the same laws as applicable for public spaces. (this is why until recent changes in the Gaming Act you had to join and wait 24hrs to play bingo online - you were playing as a member of a private club, not as a member of the public). > I'd hope that the same sort of thing exists for our scenario - we don't just let anyone walk in off the street, they have to be accompanied by a member (since someone has to open up/lock-up though perhaps we'd need to make Thursday "open nights" a "bring-along-a-friend" night to be totally compliant with the definition of a private members club).
> But the point is, we need to get advice. > I can send a tenner via PayPal or bank transfer to get the ball rolling. Wish is was more but January was a long month after being paid so early before Xmas!
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
Not sure about in Brighton, but in Chichester all the law firms offer a free 30 minute consultation which gives you a chance to explain the situation and they can let you know if you need a lawyer's involvement or not, before anybody starts to fork out any money. They also recommend different law firms for specialist cases when they are not able to help with specific issues.
On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Totally agree Chris, we need to talk to someone who actually knows the > legals around this.
> I'm also in for £10.
> On 1 Feb 2012, at 18:13, Chris Holden wrote:
> When we wanted a laser cutter, everyone who could, and wanted it to > happen. chipped in an made it happen. We we wanted a 3d printer, the same > thing applied. > Why don't we have a whip-round, raise £100 or so and buy some solicitor > time to get this sorted out? The CAB might be a cheap place to start. > Everyone is guessing about what is and isn't enforceable by law - we need > advice!
> As an aside, when I was running poker leagues in the pubs a few years ago, > we had very definite rules regarding gambling. > In a pub or other publicly accessible place, we had to abide by the Gaming > Act (no playing for real money). But where we had people competing in our > leagues from private members clubs, they did not have to abide by the same > laws as applicable for public spaces. (this is why until recent changes in > the Gaming Act you had to join and wait 24hrs to play bingo online - you > were playing as a member of a private club, not as a member of the public). > I'd hope that the same sort of thing exists for our scenario - we don't > just let anyone walk in off the street, they have to be accompanied by a > member (since someone has to open up/lock-up though perhaps we'd need to > make Thursday "open nights" a "bring-along-a-friend" night to be totally > compliant with the definition of a private members club).
> But the point is, we need to get advice. > I can send a tenner via PayPal or bank transfer to get the ball rolling. > Wish is was more but January was a long month after being paid so early > before Xmas!
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
We probably will get some sort of free consultation but somewhere along the lines - if only to draw up an agreement/waiver or something - we'll probably need to pay for legal services. Before talking to a solicitor/law firm, it'd probably be handy to know there's money in the kitty, or at least have some idea of an upper limit before they start quoting silly money! As for my pledge, internet transfer would work best for me - what are the BB bank details so I can send some money over?
> Not sure about in Brighton, but in Chichester all the law firms offer > a free 30 minute consultation which gives you a chance to explain the > situation and they can let you know if you need a lawyer's involvement > or not, before anybody starts to fork out any money. They also > recommend different law firms for specialist cases when they are not > able to help with specific issues.
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Mike Pountney > <mike.pount...@gmail.com <mailto:mike.pount...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Totally agree Chris, we need to talk to someone who actually knows > the legals around this.
> I'm also in for �10.
> On 1 Feb 2012, at 18:13, Chris Holden wrote:
>> When we wanted a laser cutter, everyone who could, and wanted it >> to happen. chipped in an made it happen. We we wanted a 3d >> printer, the same thing applied. >> Why don't we have a whip-round, raise �100 or so and buy some >> solicitor time to get this sorted out? The CAB might be a cheap >> place to start. >> Everyone is guessing about what is and isn't enforceable by law - >> we need advice!
>> As an aside, when I was running poker leagues in the pubs a few >> years ago, we had very definite rules regarding gambling. >> In a pub or other publicly accessible place, we had to abide by >> the Gaming Act (no playing for real money). But where we had >> people competing in our leagues from private members clubs, they >> did not have to abide by the same laws as applicable for public >> spaces. (this is why until recent changes in the Gaming Act you >> had to join and wait 24hrs to play bingo online - you were >> playing as a member of a private club, not as a member of the >> public). >> I'd hope that the same sort of thing exists for our scenario - we >> don't just let anyone walk in off the street, they have to be >> accompanied by a member (since someone has to open up/lock-up >> though perhaps we'd need to make Thursday "open nights" a >> "bring-along-a-friend" night to be totally compliant with the >> definition of a private members club).
>> But the point is, we need to get advice. >> I can send a tenner via PayPal or bank transfer to get the ball >> rolling. Wish is was more but January was a long month after >> being paid so early before Xmas!
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com>. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
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> We probably will get some sort of free consultation but somewhere along > the lines - if only to draw up an agreement/waiver or something - we'll > probably need to pay for legal services. > Before talking to a solicitor/law firm, it'd probably be handy to know > there's money in the kitty, or at least have some idea of an upper limit > before they start quoting silly money! > As for my pledge, internet transfer would work best for me - what are the > BB bank details so I can send some money over?
> On 02/02/2012 11:57, Justin Nel wrote:
> Not sure about in Brighton, but in Chichester all the law firms offer a > free 30 minute consultation which gives you a chance to explain the > situation and they can let you know if you need a lawyer's involvement or > not, before anybody starts to fork out any money. They also recommend > different law firms for specialist cases when they are not able to help > with specific issues.
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Mike Pountney <mike.pount...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> Totally agree Chris, we need to talk to someone who actually knows the >> legals around this.
>> I'm also in for £10.
>> On 1 Feb 2012, at 18:13, Chris Holden wrote:
>> When we wanted a laser cutter, everyone who could, and wanted it to >> happen. chipped in an made it happen. We we wanted a 3d printer, the same >> thing applied. >> Why don't we have a whip-round, raise £100 or so and buy some solicitor >> time to get this sorted out? The CAB might be a cheap place to start. >> Everyone is guessing about what is and isn't enforceable by law - we need >> advice!
>> As an aside, when I was running poker leagues in the pubs a few years >> ago, we had very definite rules regarding gambling. >> In a pub or other publicly accessible place, we had to abide by the >> Gaming Act (no playing for real money). But where we had people competing >> in our leagues from private members clubs, they did not have to abide by >> the same laws as applicable for public spaces. (this is why until recent >> changes in the Gaming Act you had to join and wait 24hrs to play bingo >> online - you were playing as a member of a private club, not as a member of >> the public). >> I'd hope that the same sort of thing exists for our scenario - we don't >> just let anyone walk in off the street, they have to be accompanied by a >> member (since someone has to open up/lock-up though perhaps we'd need to >> make Thursday "open nights" a "bring-along-a-friend" night to be totally >> compliant with the definition of a private members club).
>> But the point is, we need to get advice. >> I can send a tenner via PayPal or bank transfer to get the ball rolling. >> Wish is was more but January was a long month after being paid so early >> before Xmas!
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
It strikes me that the result of this legal consultation could be useful to all UK hackspaces. I wonder if the UK Hackspace Foundation/London guys might have looked at this before. If not perhaps it's something the Foundation could coordinate with contributions from the various groups.
Despite what some might say, BB is very similar to the other UK hackspaces, and fairly similar to spaces across the world. There's no point duplicating effort, especially financial, that could be common to all of us. We're not competing, we're groups of people with the same aims but separated geographically.
Barney
On Thursday 02 Feb 2012 12:14:14 Chris Holden wrote:
> We probably will get some sort of free consultation but somewhere along > the lines - if only to draw up an agreement/waiver or something - we'll > probably need to pay for legal services. > Before talking to a solicitor/law firm, it'd probably be handy to know > there's money in the kitty, or at least have some idea of an upper limit > before they start quoting silly money! > As for my pledge, internet transfer would work best for me - what are > the BB bank details so I can send some money over?
> On 02/02/2012 11:57, Justin Nel wrote: > > Not sure about in Brighton, but in Chichester all the law firms offer > > a free 30 minute consultation which gives you a chance to explain the > > situation and they can let you know if you need a lawyer's involvement > > or not, before anybody starts to fork out any money. They also > > recommend different law firms for specialist cases when they are not > > able to help with specific issues.
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Mike Pountney
> > <mike.pount...@gmail.com <mailto:mike.pount...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Totally agree Chris, we need to talk to someone who actually > > knows > > the legals around this.
> > I'm also in for £10.
> > On 1 Feb 2012, at 18:13, Chris Holden wrote: > >> When we wanted a laser cutter, everyone who could, and wanted > >> it > >> to happen. chipped in an made it happen. We we wanted a 3d > >> printer, the same thing applied. > >> Why don't we have a whip-round, raise £100 or so and buy some > >> solicitor time to get this sorted out? The CAB might be a > >> cheap > >> place to start. > >> Everyone is guessing about what is and isn't enforceable by > >> law - > >> we need advice!
> >> As an aside, when I was running poker leagues in the pubs a > >> few > >> years ago, we had very definite rules regarding gambling. > >> In a pub or other publicly accessible place, we had to abide > >> by > >> the Gaming Act (no playing for real money). But where we had > >> people competing in our leagues from private members clubs, > >> they > >> did not have to abide by the same laws as applicable for > >> public > >> spaces. (this is why until recent changes in the Gaming Act > >> you > >> had to join and wait 24hrs to play bingo online - you were > >> playing as a member of a private club, not as a member of the > >> public). > >> I'd hope that the same sort of thing exists for our scenario - > >> we > >> don't just let anyone walk in off the street, they have to be > >> accompanied by a member (since someone has to open up/lock-up > >> though perhaps we'd need to make Thursday "open nights" a > >> "bring-along-a-friend" night to be totally compliant with the > >> definition of a private members club).
> >> But the point is, we need to get advice. > >> I can send a tenner via PayPal or bank transfer to get the > >> ball > >> rolling. Wish is was more but January was a long month after > >> being paid so early before Xmas!
On speaking to my contact at the Federation of Small Businesses today, i have some feedback from him regarding the waiver of liability penned here. Malcolm told me that in fact Waivers are a very hit-n-miss scenario. They can be upheld in certain situations but not all. They are looked at on a case-by-case basis. For example, a waiver of liability may be upheld if Dave Day was to tell someone they must use a vice instead of their hands to hold wood on the radial armsaw, and then someone held the wood with their hands and cut their hand off the waiver MIGHT protect BB. On the other hand, if the protective screen of the Laser Cutter is slightly damaged but not visibly, and the Laser Training states the protective screen protects your eyes, and then I was to use that Laser Cutter and in the process was blinded, even if the waiver had been signed by myself i would still be well within my rights to sue.
Waivers should in no circumstances be used to replace insurance, if you want to use the waiver despite the warnings it is on your head, but personally i will not sign something to say that if someone at BB does something stupid to risk my life i will accept that, because only a fool would allow that to happen!
Rev Dave
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Barney Livingston <bar...@barnoid.org.uk>wrote:
> It strikes me that the result of this legal consultation could be useful to > all UK hackspaces. I wonder if the UK Hackspace Foundation/London guys > might > have looked at this before. If not perhaps it's something the Foundation > could > coordinate with contributions from the various groups.
> Despite what some might say, BB is very similar to the other UK hackspaces, > and fairly similar to spaces across the world. There's no point duplicating > effort, especially financial, that could be common to all of us. We're not > competing, we're groups of people with the same aims but separated > geographically.
> Barney
> On Thursday 02 Feb 2012 12:14:14 Chris Holden wrote: > > We probably will get some sort of free consultation but somewhere along > > the lines - if only to draw up an agreement/waiver or something - we'll > > probably need to pay for legal services. > > Before talking to a solicitor/law firm, it'd probably be handy to know > > there's money in the kitty, or at least have some idea of an upper limit > > before they start quoting silly money! > > As for my pledge, internet transfer would work best for me - what are > > the BB bank details so I can send some money over?
> > On 02/02/2012 11:57, Justin Nel wrote: > > > Not sure about in Brighton, but in Chichester all the law firms offer > > > a free 30 minute consultation which gives you a chance to explain the > > > situation and they can let you know if you need a lawyer's involvement > > > or not, before anybody starts to fork out any money. They also > > > recommend different law firms for specialist cases when they are not > > > able to help with specific issues.
> > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Mike Pountney
> > > <mike.pount...@gmail.com <mailto:mike.pount...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > Totally agree Chris, we need to talk to someone who actually > > > knows > > > the legals around this.
> > > I'm also in for £10.
> > > On 1 Feb 2012, at 18:13, Chris Holden wrote: > > >> When we wanted a laser cutter, everyone who could, and wanted > > >> it > > >> to happen. chipped in an made it happen. We we wanted a 3d > > >> printer, the same thing applied. > > >> Why don't we have a whip-round, raise £100 or so and buy some > > >> solicitor time to get this sorted out? The CAB might be a > > >> cheap > > >> place to start. > > >> Everyone is guessing about what is and isn't enforceable by > > >> law - > > >> we need advice!
> > >> As an aside, when I was running poker leagues in the pubs a > > >> few > > >> years ago, we had very definite rules regarding gambling. > > >> In a pub or other publicly accessible place, we had to abide > > >> by > > >> the Gaming Act (no playing for real money). But where we had > > >> people competing in our leagues from private members clubs, > > >> they > > >> did not have to abide by the same laws as applicable for > > >> public > > >> spaces. (this is why until recent changes in the Gaming Act > > >> you > > >> had to join and wait 24hrs to play bingo online - you were > > >> playing as a member of a private club, not as a member of the > > >> public). > > >> I'd hope that the same sort of thing exists for our scenario - > > >> we > > >> don't just let anyone walk in off the street, they have to be > > >> accompanied by a member (since someone has to open up/lock-up > > >> though perhaps we'd need to make Thursday "open nights" a > > >> "bring-along-a-friend" night to be totally compliant with the > > >> definition of a private members club).
> > >> But the point is, we need to get advice. > > >> I can send a tenner via PayPal or bank transfer to get the > > >> ball > > >> rolling. Wish is was more but January was a long month after > > >> being paid so early before Xmas!
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
-- ============================= Universal Life Church Reverend Cheaper Car Insurance Lane Swansea SA6 7JL =============================
I think Barney has a point though, we should ask the other spaces in the UK what they are doing, as surely one of them would have had this argument and found that there is perhaps a specific type of insurance needed to take out and it's all relatively straightforward.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:32 PM, RJ <robos...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi All,
> On speaking to my contact at the Federation of Small Businesses today, i > have some feedback from him regarding the waiver of liability penned here. > Malcolm told me that in fact Waivers are a very hit-n-miss scenario. They > can be upheld in certain situations but not all. They are looked at on a > case-by-case basis. For example, a waiver of liability may be upheld if > Dave Day was to tell someone they must use a vice instead of their hands to > hold wood on the radial armsaw, and then someone held the wood with their > hands and cut their hand off the waiver MIGHT protect BB. On the other > hand, if the protective screen of the Laser Cutter is slightly damaged but > not visibly, and the Laser Training states the protective screen protects > your eyes, and then I was to use that Laser Cutter and in the process was > blinded, even if the waiver had been signed by myself i would still be well > within my rights to sue.
> Waivers should in no circumstances be used to replace insurance, if you > want to use the waiver despite the warnings it is on your head, but > personally i will not sign something to say that if someone at BB does > something stupid to risk my life i will accept that, because only a fool > would allow that to happen!
> Rev Dave
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Barney Livingston <bar...@barnoid.org.uk>wrote:
>> It strikes me that the result of this legal consultation could be useful >> to >> all UK hackspaces. I wonder if the UK Hackspace Foundation/London guys >> might >> have looked at this before. If not perhaps it's something the Foundation >> could >> coordinate with contributions from the various groups.
>> Despite what some might say, BB is very similar to the other UK >> hackspaces, >> and fairly similar to spaces across the world. There's no point >> duplicating >> effort, especially financial, that could be common to all of us. We're not >> competing, we're groups of people with the same aims but separated >> geographically.
>> Barney
>> On Thursday 02 Feb 2012 12:14:14 Chris Holden wrote: >> > We probably will get some sort of free consultation but somewhere along >> > the lines - if only to draw up an agreement/waiver or something - we'll >> > probably need to pay for legal services. >> > Before talking to a solicitor/law firm, it'd probably be handy to know >> > there's money in the kitty, or at least have some idea of an upper limit >> > before they start quoting silly money! >> > As for my pledge, internet transfer would work best for me - what are >> > the BB bank details so I can send some money over?
>> > On 02/02/2012 11:57, Justin Nel wrote: >> > > Not sure about in Brighton, but in Chichester all the law firms offer >> > > a free 30 minute consultation which gives you a chance to explain the >> > > situation and they can let you know if you need a lawyer's involvement >> > > or not, before anybody starts to fork out any money. They also >> > > recommend different law firms for specialist cases when they are not >> > > able to help with specific issues.
>> > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Mike Pountney
>> > > <mike.pount...@gmail.com <mailto:mike.pount...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > > Totally agree Chris, we need to talk to someone who actually >> > > knows >> > > the legals around this.
>> > > I'm also in for £10.
>> > > On 1 Feb 2012, at 18:13, Chris Holden wrote: >> > >> When we wanted a laser cutter, everyone who could, and wanted >> > >> it >> > >> to happen. chipped in an made it happen. We we wanted a 3d >> > >> printer, the same thing applied. >> > >> Why don't we have a whip-round, raise £100 or so and buy some >> > >> solicitor time to get this sorted out? The CAB might be a >> > >> cheap >> > >> place to start. >> > >> Everyone is guessing about what is and isn't enforceable by >> > >> law - >> > >> we need advice!
>> > >> As an aside, when I was running poker leagues in the pubs a >> > >> few >> > >> years ago, we had very definite rules regarding gambling. >> > >> In a pub or other publicly accessible place, we had to abide >> > >> by >> > >> the Gaming Act (no playing for real money). But where we had >> > >> people competing in our leagues from private members clubs, >> > >> they >> > >> did not have to abide by the same laws as applicable for >> > >> public >> > >> spaces. (this is why until recent changes in the Gaming Act >> > >> you >> > >> had to join and wait 24hrs to play bingo online - you were >> > >> playing as a member of a private club, not as a member of the >> > >> public). >> > >> I'd hope that the same sort of thing exists for our scenario - >> > >> we >> > >> don't just let anyone walk in off the street, they have to be >> > >> accompanied by a member (since someone has to open up/lock-up >> > >> though perhaps we'd need to make Thursday "open nights" a >> > >> "bring-along-a-friend" night to be totally compliant with the >> > >> definition of a private members club).
>> > >> But the point is, we need to get advice. >> > >> I can send a tenner via PayPal or bank transfer to get the >> > >> ball >> > >> rolling. Wish is was more but January was a long month after >> > >> being paid so early before Xmas!
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > ============================= > Universal Life Church Reverend > Cheaper Car Insurance Lane > Swansea > SA6 7JL > =============================
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
One stage ahead of you their Mate, i have been in talks with Reading Hackspace, E-Space Foundation, MakerSpace and ElectroLAB for a while now and all 4 use Quotedesk for their insurance, i have a quote from them that i will reveal today at the meeting. When i asked Reading Hackspace about their views on the waiver i was told to lookup HASAWA. And they are right, we deal with memebrs of the general public, therefor paid or unpaid, as members of BB we become its Staff,and it is tehrefor the duty of the directors to provide us with a safe workplace. I have penned a list of our legal requirements that we need to adhere to in terms of Health & Safety.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Justin Nel <dogbertuk2...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for taking the time to clarify that Dave.
> I think Barney has a point though, we should ask the other spaces in the > UK what they are doing, as surely one of them would have had this argument > and found that there is perhaps a specific type of insurance needed to take > out and it's all relatively straightforward.
> - Justin
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:32 PM, RJ <robos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> On speaking to my contact at the Federation of Small Businesses today, i >> have some feedback from him regarding the waiver of liability penned here. >> Malcolm told me that in fact Waivers are a very hit-n-miss scenario. They >> can be upheld in certain situations but not all. They are looked at on a >> case-by-case basis. For example, a waiver of liability may be upheld if >> Dave Day was to tell someone they must use a vice instead of their hands to >> hold wood on the radial armsaw, and then someone held the wood with their >> hands and cut their hand off the waiver MIGHT protect BB. On the other >> hand, if the protective screen of the Laser Cutter is slightly damaged but >> not visibly, and the Laser Training states the protective screen protects >> your eyes, and then I was to use that Laser Cutter and in the process was >> blinded, even if the waiver had been signed by myself i would still be well >> within my rights to sue.
>> Waivers should in no circumstances be used to replace insurance, if you >> want to use the waiver despite the warnings it is on your head, but >> personally i will not sign something to say that if someone at BB does >> something stupid to risk my life i will accept that, because only a fool >> would allow that to happen!
>> Rev Dave
>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Barney Livingston <bar...@barnoid.org.uk>wrote:
>>> It strikes me that the result of this legal consultation could be useful >>> to >>> all UK hackspaces. I wonder if the UK Hackspace Foundation/London guys >>> might >>> have looked at this before. If not perhaps it's something the Foundation >>> could >>> coordinate with contributions from the various groups.
>>> Despite what some might say, BB is very similar to the other UK >>> hackspaces, >>> and fairly similar to spaces across the world. There's no point >>> duplicating >>> effort, especially financial, that could be common to all of us. We're >>> not >>> competing, we're groups of people with the same aims but separated >>> geographically.
>>> Barney
>>> On Thursday 02 Feb 2012 12:14:14 Chris Holden wrote: >>> > We probably will get some sort of free consultation but somewhere along >>> > the lines - if only to draw up an agreement/waiver or something - we'll >>> > probably need to pay for legal services. >>> > Before talking to a solicitor/law firm, it'd probably be handy to know >>> > there's money in the kitty, or at least have some idea of an upper >>> limit >>> > before they start quoting silly money! >>> > As for my pledge, internet transfer would work best for me - what are >>> > the BB bank details so I can send some money over?
>>> > On 02/02/2012 11:57, Justin Nel wrote: >>> > > Not sure about in Brighton, but in Chichester all the law firms offer >>> > > a free 30 minute consultation which gives you a chance to explain the >>> > > situation and they can let you know if you need a lawyer's >>> involvement >>> > > or not, before anybody starts to fork out any money. They also >>> > > recommend different law firms for specialist cases when they are not >>> > > able to help with specific issues.
>>> > > On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:37 PM, Mike Pountney
>>> > > <mike.pount...@gmail.com <mailto:mike.pount...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> > > Totally agree Chris, we need to talk to someone who actually >>> > > knows >>> > > the legals around this.
>>> > > I'm also in for £10.
>>> > > On 1 Feb 2012, at 18:13, Chris Holden wrote: >>> > >> When we wanted a laser cutter, everyone who could, and wanted >>> > >> it >>> > >> to happen. chipped in an made it happen. We we wanted a 3d >>> > >> printer, the same thing applied. >>> > >> Why don't we have a whip-round, raise £100 or so and buy some >>> > >> solicitor time to get this sorted out? The CAB might be a >>> > >> cheap >>> > >> place to start. >>> > >> Everyone is guessing about what is and isn't enforceable by >>> > >> law - >>> > >> we need advice!
>>> > >> As an aside, when I was running poker leagues in the pubs a >>> > >> few >>> > >> years ago, we had very definite rules regarding gambling. >>> > >> In a pub or other publicly accessible place, we had to abide >>> > >> by >>> > >> the Gaming Act (no playing for real money). But where we had >>> > >> people competing in our leagues from private members clubs, >>> > >> they >>> > >> did not have to abide by the same laws as applicable for >>> > >> public >>> > >> spaces. (this is why until recent changes in the Gaming Act >>> > >> you >>> > >> had to join and wait 24hrs to play bingo online - you were >>> > >> playing as a member of a private club, not as a member of the >>> > >> public). >>> > >> I'd hope that the same sort of thing exists for our scenario - >>> > >> we >>> > >> don't just let anyone walk in off the street, they have to be >>> > >> accompanied by a member (since someone has to open up/lock-up >>> > >> though perhaps we'd need to make Thursday "open nights" a >>> > >> "bring-along-a-friend" night to be totally compliant with the >>> > >> definition of a private members club).
>>> > >> But the point is, we need to get advice. >>> > >> I can send a tenner via PayPal or bank transfer to get the >>> > >> ball >>> > >> rolling. Wish is was more but January was a long month after >>> > >> being paid so early before Xmas!
>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to >>> brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
>> -- >> ============================= >> Universal Life Church Reverend >> Cheaper Car Insurance Lane >> Swansea >> SA6 7JL >> =============================
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. >> To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BuildBrighton - the Brighton Hacker Space" group. > To post to this group, send email to brightonhackerspace@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > brightonhackerspace+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/brightonhackerspace?hl=en.
-- ============================= Universal Life Church Reverend Cheaper Car Insurance Lane Swansea SA6 7JL =============================
Could someone please update the rest of us that can't make it to the meeting(s)? I'm sure I'm not the only one who relies on the group emails to keep in touch with how things are going..... Cheers
> One stage ahead of you their Mate, i have been in talks with Reading > Hackspace, E-Space Foundation, MakerSpace and ElectroLAB for a while > now and all 4 use Quotedesk for their insurance, i have a quote from > them that i will reveal today at the meeting. When i asked Reading > Hackspace about their views on the waiver i was told to lookup HASAWA. > And they are right, we deal with memebrs of the general public, > therefor paid or unpaid, as members of BB we become its Staff,and it > is tehrefor the duty of the directors to provide us with a safe > workplace. I have penned a list of our legal requirements that we need > to adhere to in terms of Health & Safety.
