Frustration

[putumayo]

Hi! I've been training dual n back for 2 months everyday and my
average score is something like 3.3! I don't see improvements in my
average score - it even dropped recently! Everyone has 4 or 5! I'm
begining to frustrate. Maybe it's because I'm using the intuitive
approach (but it should be done this way)... Has anyone had this
experiences? I'm also looking for new dual n back studies confirming
the link beetween this game and IQ. Maybe some researcher will read
this and write something about this :-)

putumayo

[Paul]

If you aren't progressing with your current method, try switching things up a bit. Try deliberately remembering and updating the "lists" of sounds & positions.

We don't really know enough to say which method is the best or produces the most intelligence gain. The ideal method may be different from person to person. My advice would be to experiment and try to find the way that works best for you.

Paul

[karnautrahl]

I can't get past 3.5 either. I stopped doing it regularly 2 weeks ago,
however I still use it to refocus some from time to time. Since this
all started my personal electronic library of PDF's, lectures (mp3/
video) and specialised books has grown to over 500Gb with my dipping
into all sorts of stuff :). My ability to concentrate has grown
tremendously since using these program. This is something I credit
both the researcher's and Paul's developments efforts for. :) So thank
you :).

Note Putumayo, you don't need to progress higher to have higher "IQ"
necessarily. Widen your scope now-learn new skills etc that would be
well worth your time.

On Dec 21, 5:50 pm, Paul <plh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you aren't progressing with your current method, try switching things up
> a bit. Try deliberately remembering and updating the "lists" of sounds &
> positions.
> We don't really know enough to say which method is the best or produces the
> most intelligence gain. The ideal method may be different from person to
> person. My advice would be to experiment and try to find the way that works
> best for you.
>
> Paul
>

[dualnback]

Hey guys,

It took me a while to progress beyond 3 back. Your mind will
eventually figure it out. Don't give up.

Moreover, Jaeggi, on an e-mail correspondence, told me it's good to
take break twice a week, when practicing dual n back. That is, do the
exercise 5 days a week with two days break, like they did in the
study. I think that gives your mind the time it needs to recuperate
and adapt to the task. And the funny thing is, you will not be behind
when you start again after the two days break.

Lastly, I am starting to be skeptical about the notion of doing Dual N
Back intuitively. So you may want to try both the intuitive process
and whatever method your mind comes up to doing Dual N Back. If you
do the latter, you will notice that whatever method your mind comes up
with, you will struggle to do the exercise at the next level. Hence
you will continue to grow as you figure out how to deal with the next
level. Hope this helps.

Best wishes and good luck.

Merry Christmas!!!

[VirtualM]

I've been stuck at 3-4 for a long time too, so you are not alone. I
try to use the intuitive method, but at the beginning of each level I
try to do an initial count of the first n number of sounds and
squares. Not sure if I'm doing the right thing, though.

[smushi]

I was progressing rather fast in the beginning. I managed to go up to
level 5 (just once) in about 3 weeks (4 days practice per week). Then
I read about how we are supposed to handle it intuitively and I
changed my method. That resulted in declined scores immediately. I was
mostly back at level 3, could hardly get up to 4 and even dropped to 2
once in a while.
I'm plateauing for a month or something now, slowly rising above 3.

What keeps me motivated is reading these posts and the knowledge that
every great musician (or whatever) had to practice years to become
truly great.
I sometimes consider going back to counting and remembering
consciously. But for now I'll stick with the intuitive approach.
Somehow I have more fun this way.

[putumayo]

Hi! Thankyou for your posts - they are very interesting and helpful. I
didn't know that taking a break was good for us - now I will do it. I
will stay with my intuition method even if the scores are poor. I
think that this method is close to our way of thinking and solving
problems. I'm studying math and the result of some math problem or the
understanding of a new concept always go with this unconcious
processing ("incubation"). I'm telling you! :-) That is why I'm taking
this approach.

putumayo

[chinmi04]

Incubation is the process in which your brain forms new neural
pathways to be able to process new information. When this process is
complete, the problem/concept becomes part of you.. 'intuitive'.

For the brain to be able to do this it needs strong right/wrong
signals during the learning process, or it won't be able to deduct
what you want from it... it won't adapt. When you go at something
'instinctively' you are basically actively depriving your brain of
such learning signals.

That's why you haven't seen improvement in n-back levels. By going
with the instinctive method, you have kept your brain from adapting
itself to the problem.

I believe the power of the n-back exercise comes from the theory that
there are carry-over effects from your brain getting good at it, not
from trying to grow instinct out of nowhere.

[Confuzedd]

I too have been stuck trying to even maintain level 3 backs. A lot of
times I drop back down to level 2 and sometimes I even need to try a
couple more times to get over 80% on level 2. I'm doing the stare at
dot "feel brain dead" type of approach for about a month now. I have
occasionally made it to level 4 backs but it was luck when the program
gives you an easier sequence.

and chinmi04,

Now I'm a bit confused as to how to go about this intuitively. How
would the feelings differ between the process of intuitively as
opposed to instinctively? Do you think, maybe we're unconsciously
creating strategies but we just don't know it, hence "intuitively"?

[chinmi04]

hey

sorry, by 'instinctively' I meant 'intuitively'... didn't mean to
differ between the two.

I was just trying to express my scepticism towards doing n-back purely
by the 'intuitive method'. Jaeggi saying that we should focus on the
core task of the n-back exercise (and not coming up with elaborate
mnemonics) is just being misinterpreted as going at it intuitively.

[frozen yog]

Yeah, I'm not at all clear what 'intuitive' really means.

I think it just concentration, a zen state of mind, where you're
actually quite alert and not in a 'feel brain dead' but also
not explicitly/consciously 'chunking' the patterns.

There was a discussion in the forum about this sort of thing -
meditative/flow states vs deliberately learning how to memorize the
sequences.

Much of a muchness in the end I think. They each help the other.

The brain is pretty powerful but it's easy to get less out of it than
you want when you take things too seriously

Just play around with it an BW.

I like to use manual mode, change the game, change the 'reps', and/or
speed it up till I'm right on that point of brain mayhem, where if I
don't concentrate just a little bit harder, I'll blow it.

If I recall correctly, the higher n-back scores increase didn't
correlate to greater G(f) increases. It's about exercising the brain.
but if your scores are frustrating you, if your objective is to get to
5 or 6 n-back, do whatever you have to.

[Confuzedd]

putumayo,

Try practicing using novice mode. Go to the default website
http://brainworkshop.sourceforge.net/ scroll down to novice mode to
read about it. I have been doing default mode for 20 training days
and I am very slowly progressing (I think?), so I'm going to try out
novice mode.

[esel]

Hi everyone...I have been reading this group for a while.

I, too, am not having much success with the "intuitive method". I
hover around 3-back, occasionally reaching 4, but to be honest I think
I am merely rehearsing without even noticing it.

Isn't there anyone who can contact Susanne Jaeggi and clarify once and
for all exactly how the people in the study did it?

[fhools]

HI switched to the intuitive method about a month and a half ago. I
thought it would be better. However I'm having doubts, I have since
notice my performance slowly degrading. I've been on 5-Back for 3
months now. I am going to switch back to trying to memorize past
sequences. I've reached 6-Back a few times but I believe its mainly
luck. Being stuck on 5-Back for so long has been a bit frustrating but
I think it may be a matter of putting in 30-45 minutes instead of 20
minutes to get over this hump.

[Gore Lando]

Just think about what people in the research who improved their IQ scores actually would have been doing.

In the absence of anything in the paper about them being told very clearly to not use counting or lists in their head (which is something that I'm pretty sure would be mentioned if it happened), I think the likelihood is that many of them used counting or lists.  This has been the obvious, "intuitive" strategy for me and many others.

[putumayo]

Hi again!
Do you think that the break should be 2 days in a week one after
another or 1 day break then train and then another day of break. How
was it in the study?

putumayo

[Jarno Virtanen]

I've just recently started doing the exercises so my experiences are
limited. However, I took a break for couple of days and when I did the
exercises yesterday I had a vivid sensation of the difference between
yesterday's exercise and that of the previous. I remembered the
awkward feeling of the previous dual 3-back session (couple of days
earlier) and yesterday, even though the difference in score wasn't the
big, I just remembered/saw/whatever the sequence.

I didn't try to memorize the sequence or anything, I was just
following the current item. But regardless, it was considerably easier
to come up with the right sequences. The strangeness came from the
fact that I could mentally compare the different feeling. I remebered
not having a clue what the correct sequence was in the sessions two
days earlier. But when I did it yesterday, I just had a better memory
of the items even though I wasn't trying to force them.

Sorry to come of a bit confusing. It's hard to describe the
feeling. :-)

[negatron]

Working memory isn't a skill any more than intelligence is a skill.
Skills are applied abilities, n-back's entire premise is that it is
not an applied training regimen. This two hour rule, if true and I
doubt it, wouldn't at all apply to n-back.

How much should a person train? I can't suppose to know, but until
there are studies that shed light on this, the more the better.

[Confuzedd]

It says on the homepage, "Intensive training every day is not
recommended because the brain needs time to learn, adapt and
reconfigure itself. A training schedule of 4-5 days per week seems to
be the most effective. "

But earlier before that it said, "The original scientific study on
Dual N-Back shows a linear correlation between the participants' gain
in measured fluid intelligence and time spent practicing Dual N-Back.
In other words, the more you practice, the more your memory and
intelligence will improve."

Confusing, eh?

[Ben]

Both statements can be true I think. They aren't mutually exclusive if
you do a little interpretation.
The second statement is speaking about long-term duration of training
on the scale of weeks or months.
It is speaking about this duration independently of the smaller scale
duration. In other words, if you hold the minutes/day and days/week
measures constant, then the larger scale improvement is related to
time linearly.
Although it would seem that all the above measures--minutes/day and
days/week and weeks in total--would all boil down (through
multiplication) into a single value in minutes, they don't. They have
effects on gF (and presumably on dual n-back) performance
independently of each other.

[Gore Lando]

Can you tell us more about this, cites, etc.?

"the optimal schedule for learning a skill is to practice it
2 hours a day, everyday.  that is, studies have shown little  benefit
when practicing longer than 2 hours."

This does not seem true for some things.

On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 9:00 AM, blank <peisis...@gmail.com> wrote:

How do you define intelligence?  If you are using traditional notions
intelligence, you mean a combination of logic, critical reasoning,
reading, knowledge, expertise, fluency, memorization, ect ... each of
these are all skills.   I think excellence at dual n-back is a skill,
but it is a skill that happens to influence a certain brain area that
in turn can effect other behavior - this is the premise of dual n-back

[exigentsky]

The novice mode is really not like Brain Twister or the study.

For the study implementation (http://www.sciencentral.com/video/
2008/12/31/brain-boot-camp-makes-you-smarter/):

1. single blue color on black background with no animation.
2. no grid lines except a very small guide in the middle (makes it
harder).
3. no feedback until the end (makes it harder).
4. full-screen with no extraneous information (no distracting text
from software is shown at all)

Brain Workshop can be configured to successfully mimic the study
implementation in novice mode for all but #2. It would be great if
this were an additional option and if novice mode activation could
mimic the study with all of these option.

[Paul]

Sure, i'll add this option in the upcoming minor update.

Paul

[Benjamano]

Hi Putumayo,

I also was progressing slowly with the "pure intuitive" method, so to
try something new, I tried a new idea which (after a couple of
sessions backward step) felt like a significant improvement. For each
new stimulus I try to remember the n-back stimulus it displaces - but
ONLY the n-back stimulus - and not the in-between stimuli.

I believe the "pure intuitive" method of letting the stimuli "wash
over you" doesn't give the brain enough of a hint as to what it is
supposed to be doing - ie what the "goal" is.

cheers, Ben

[Kolmogorov]

If you want to improve train dual-n-back without dual-n-back so to
speak. Say ABCD then say BCDE (replace E with something random) the
CDEF etc etc, do this a couple of times to "teach your brain" how to
update the sequence. When we stop "recounting" the letters is when we
run into trouble.