Anyone else having problems with remembering positions?

[Edward Moore]

I've progressed to a fairly steady Dual 4-back and feel confident that
I shall be reaching 5-back fairly shortly. The problem is, I seem to
be honing my aural memory very well (correctly identifying the sound
80% or so of the time) but failing miserably when it comes to the
positions. I have managed to progress relatively quickly by virtue of
the former, but the latter is bothering me. It's as if I just cannot,
no matter how I try, remember those positions. I have even followed
the advice of some people here and tried practicising just the
positions but to no avail. It just feels impossible, as if my brain
just cannot handle it.

Is anyone else having this same problem? Or, better still, has anyone
else been able to surmount it? If so, how?

[Reece]

I think everyone has their different strengths and weaknesses. I'm
almost perfect with positions and get destroyed with colors and shapes
when playing Q3B.

For me, I find it quite easy to recognize position and auditory
stimuli intuitively. I try my best to do the same with colors and
concentrate as much as possible on trying to identify the shapes which
is what I struggle most with. Even having adopted a strategy to try
and tackle the shapes, I still score higher on the others. I actually
score higher at Q3B than I do at D3B color/shape -- that's how bad I
am with them!

This may seem somewhat paradoxical, however I have found that playing
with 1 second time intervals actually helps me perform better when
later playing with larger time intervals between trials. I know it
doesn't seem to make any sense granted you are holding items in your
memory for less long, however I have been experimenting with this for
about 2 months now and that's been my experience.

[Pontus Granström]

I had the same problem that you are describing. Try to focus more visual and don't pay attention to audio for example in manual mode. When you can complete the N-back level with position try both. I somewhat felt that positions had a lower priority and therefore I tend to neglect it. It can also be of help of seeing a homogenous pattern that is updating rather than many discrete positions.

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[Edward Moore]

Thank you both of you. Could you perhaps expatiate a little on the whole "seeing an homogenous pattern that is updating" advice?

2009/11/16 Pontus Granström <lepo...@gmail.com>

--
“There is one elemental truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the  moment one commits oneself, Providence moves all.”  - Wolfgang Goethe

[Pontus Granström]

Well imagine for example a L becoming a upside down L or something else that can aid you in remembering positions. Or go thru the sequence like a snake starting at the end and going forward everytime you get a new square.

[Edward Moore]

I'm still having a great deal of difficulty with positions. Can anyone
add to the advice already given? I've reached Dual 4-back and
sometimes I even get to Dual 5-back but I still have the same problem
of remembering positions and even being able to follow them at all
whilst the game is in progress. Seriously, I have an average 85%
success rate when it comes to the sounds, but only 49% when it comes
to positions - so, it appears that all I'm really doing is guessing.
I've tried just doing positions, but beyond 2-back (which I always
score 100% with), it's still incredibly difficult. What else? More
importantly, what on earth is wrong with me?

The snake advice SORT of helped, but the moment a square repeats
itself in the same position, I completely lose track.

On Nov 16, 6:00 pm, Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well imagine for example a L becoming a upside down L or something else that
> can aid you in remembering positions. Or go thru the sequence like a snake
> starting at the end and going forward everytime you get a new square.
>

> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 9:39 PM, Edward Moore <edward.mo...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Thank you both of you. Could you perhaps expatiate a little on the whole
> > "seeing an homogenous pattern that is updating" advice?
>

> > 2009/11/16 Pontus Granström <lepon...@gmail.com>

>
> > I had the same problem that you are describing. Try to focus more visual
> >> and don't pay attention to audio for example in manual mode. When you can
> >> complete the N-back level with position try both. I somewhat felt that
> >> positions had a lower priority and therefore I tend to neglect it. It can
> >> also be of help of seeing a homogenous pattern that is updating rather than
> >> many discrete positions.
>

[Edward Moore]

Thanks for that, Argumzio. You might have a point about difficulties temporalizing spacial data. I can rotate a somewhat vague image in my head but I find it depends a lot on my mood and sense of mental well-being. I already run for 30-40 minutes per day and certainly notice the days when I haven't run. For example, I feel okay right now and managed to close my eyes just and mentally picture myself closing my laptop and spinning it around in my head. I've been under an incredible amount of stress recently, however, trying to get my Masters dissertation handed in. Not even running can hold the stress at bay at the moment, though I shudder to think what I'd be like if I didn't do it.

I've read studies that suggest prolonged stress and depression, particularly in cases of PTSD, for example, leads to atrophy of the hippocampus, sometimes as much as 18%. The jury's out over whether this is reversible or not. What are your thoughts?

2009/12/2 argumzio <argu...@gmail.com>

On Dec 2, 9:54 am, Edward Moore <edward.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm still having a great deal of difficulty with positions. Can anyone
> add to the advice already given? I've reached Dual 4-back and
> sometimes I even get to Dual 5-back but I still have the same problem
> of remembering positions and even being able to follow them at all
> whilst the game is in progress. Seriously, I have an average 85%
> success rate when it comes to the sounds, but only 49% when it comes
> to positions - so, it appears that all I'm really doing is guessing.
> I've tried just doing positions, but beyond 2-back (which I always
> score 100% with), it's still incredibly difficult. What else? More
> importantly, what on earth is wrong with me?
>
> The snake advice SORT of helped, but the moment a square repeats
> itself in the same position, I completely lose track.

Sounds like to me you have some sort of temporalizing difficulty for
spatial data. Are you able to rotate objects in your mind's eye with
ease or does that happen with great mental exertion and energy or not
at all? I'm curious because this sort of thing is first nature for me,
and I find it difficult to comprehend this kind of difficulty.

Practice in producing mental movies may educate the mind to produce
this on an instinctual level...

Since no one is a disembodied mind, here is a piece of advice that I
think may help: jogging. Aerobic exercise (10-20 min) increases blood-
flow (and oxygen levels) in the hippocampus, a vital region
responsible for spatial information, which leads to greater
neurogenesis. Having more baby hippocampi neurons to spare would
likely help. Results will probably be seen within about two weeks.

Other than that, all I can say is do not despair. You're hitting your
limits, and that is what is important when training.

argumzio

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[y offs et]

"The snake advice SORT of helped, but the moment a square repeats
itself in the same position, I completely lose track."

I have gained some skill in dealing with this situation over time, so
don't give up.
I'll use your point as an apple box to make a dissertation.

Having studied the original scientific paper, and through personal
observations, I have concluded that BWS is an excellent over-all, all
around, general expansion of the findings, with variations available
for the highest possible audience. It is a great work and the authors
should be congratulated.
Having given credit where due, and having covered my butt, I have the
right to be a critic.

In my honest opinion I feel that 1) having the snake double back upon
itself, and 2) having the sounds and characters repeat in confusing
manners, are unnecessary distractions from the goal, that being of
BUILDING WORKING MEMORY. To me, it is introducing game like executive
function hoops to jump through, which distracts attention from
concentration on remembering, and thus limits advances in working
memory growth to the ability to incorporate mental gymnastics.

Of course, the gifted users that have mastered the application as is
may disagree with this. However, I have a relationship with a number
of souls at the other end of the bell shaped curve. I find it
difficult to imagine any way to configure BWS so that it may be of any
benefit to them.

In closing, I continue to use BWS, albeit with lessened enthusiasm, to
keep myself sharp. I have a proposed project in mind where I would
write a program based on my stated interpretation of the goal. No, I
don't like Python, and I'm in no hurry, so don't hold your breath.

[Edward Moore]

Interesting reply. I'm confused, however. You say at the beginning that you've 'gained some skill' with positions yet at the end of your post you say you have had contact with those for whom whatever configuration of BWS would concede no benefit. Just out of curiosity, what difficulties have you had exactly and how long did it take you to overcome them?

2009/12/2 y offs et <tre...@shaw.ca>

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[Edward Moore]

A small update: What I said earlier about not being able to do single n-back wasn't all that accurate. I've just got up to 5-back on positions only and if I really concentrate, it's really not all that difficult. It just demands total concentration. This is a good sign, right? But any idea why I can't do both at the same time? I tried to learn to juggle when I was a kid and failed miserably. It feels like that is what I'm trying to do when I play Dual n-back.

2009/12/2 Edward Moore <edward...@gmail.com>

[y offs et]

It is easier if you can visualize a ghost of characters past.
However, on the snake double-back that strategy is foiled. If I get
lost here, I've learned to guess or leave a blank, but always
continue.
I do triple-n-back, using the snake, repeating an updating list of
characters in my head, and guessing at the sound based on sort of a
music-like or poetry-like beat. The more I do it, the easier it
gets...slowly.
I read a study once that postulated we tend to be a single focus type
intelligence, and to do exercises like this requires the Zen-like
ability to stay calm and generalize.

On Dec 2, 12:14 pm, Edward Moore <edward.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A small update: What I said earlier about not being able to do single n-back
> wasn't all that accurate. I've just got up to 5-back on positions only and
> if I really concentrate, it's really not all that difficult. It just demands
> total concentration. This is a good sign, right? But any idea why I can't do
> both at the same time? I tried to learn to juggle when I was a kid and
> failed miserably. It feels like that is what I'm trying to do when I play
> Dual n-back.
>

> 2009/12/2 Edward Moore <edward.mo...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
> > Interesting reply. I'm confused, however. You say at the beginning that
> > you've 'gained some skill' with positions yet at the end of your post you
> > say you have had contact with those for whom whatever configuration of BWS
> > would concede no benefit. Just out of curiosity, what difficulties have you
> > had exactly and how long did it take you to overcome them?
>

> > 2009/12/2 y offs et <tree...@shaw.ca>

> >> brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com<brain-training%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >> .

[Gwern Branwen]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 2:35 PM, y offs et <tre...@shaw.ca> wrote:
...

> Of course, the gifted users that have mastered the application as is
> may disagree with this.  However, I have a relationship with a number
> of souls at the other end of the bell shaped curve.  I find it
> difficult to imagine any way to configure BWS so that it may be of any
> benefit to them.

...

Don't quite follow. I assume you are euphemistically saying 'DNB isn't
good for stupid people'? But surely there are settings they could do
well on: D1B, or maybe S1B, with lengthened intervals, increased
chances of matches, etc.

--
gwern

[y offs et]

You assume incorrectly. "stupid people" almost by definition, are
unmotivated to improve themselves, and thus will always remain
stupid.
Mentally challenged people are like small children intellects. It is
difficult to help them understand that something that makes them
strain the envelope can help them improve their situation. They need
bells and whistles to keep their attention, and I have some ideas, but
of course it involves a lot of graphics. BWS, as it is, is boring.
We do it, because we understand.

On Dec 2, 3:51 pm, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Gwern Branwen]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 7:09 PM, y offs et <tre...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> You assume incorrectly.  "stupid people" almost by definition, are
> unmotivated to improve themselves, and thus will always remain
> stupid.
> Mentally challenged people are like small children intellects.  It is
> difficult to help them understand that something that makes them
> strain the envelope can help them improve their situation.  They need
> bells and whistles to keep their attention, and I have some ideas, but
> of course it involves a lot of graphics.  BWS, as it is, is boring.
> We do it, because we understand.

I don't think 'stupid' is much different from 'mentally challenged',
connotations aside. But I see that you were referring to motivation
and not actually being unable to do any version of DNB at all.

Yes, I think there are some interesting possibilities in terms of
making DNB more fun & accessible.

Here's an idea: one has a 2D shmup-style shooter. One has 2 buttons,
but each one makes the fighter shoot different bullets: red and blue
bullet, say. The screen is divided into moving zones (so as one zone
vanishes off the screen, another boundary comes moving down from
above), and each zone is either red or blue - but you can't see which.
The trick is, if you are in a red zone, only your red bullets will be
effective, and vice versa. But you *could* know because when the zone
appeared on the screen, some indicator flashed blue or red.
So as you play, you are thinking 'I remember the zone I'm shooting
into is blue, but the one I'm in is red, and I need to kill that swarm
coming down the right side in the middle zone, so I'd better switch
bullets to red.'
If there are, say, 5 zones, then this would be equivalent to Single
5-back, since you need to remember 5 red/blue flashes back to know
what you're currently in.
Now, how could we make this Dual? That's a little more difficult. We
could add another game mechanic: each zone had a red/blue flash as it
entered the screen, but now we could add some binary sound (let's say
meow/bark). If the sound for the zone you are in was a meow, then you
need to shoot bullets which are the same color as your zone, as
before; but if it was a bark, then you need to shoot bullets the color
of the zone your target is in. (I realize that this isn't quite DNB,
since DNB wouldn't force you to remember the first stimuli for an
arbitrary item like the target-zone idea does, but I can't quite think
of another way to make the fighter's current zone vary in some way the
player needs to react to.)

Anyway, I think that the general approach of hiding necessary
information about the game-world is a good one. It wouldn't be too
hard to think of other modified games - Invisible Tetris, where you
can't see the piece you are manipulating or the next n, but you can
see what shape n+1 is.

--
gwern

[y offs et]

A very interesting idea. There are a number of software programmers
that read this group. Perhaps one of them will pick it up. I would
certainly want to give it a try playing it.

On the critic side, I remind you of my original post -
"...are unnecessary distractions from the goal, that being of

BUILDING WORKING MEMORY. To me, it is introducing game like executive
function hoops to jump through, which distracts attention from
concentration on remembering, and thus limits advances in working
memory growth to the ability to incorporate mental gymnastics. "

- where moving your ship and blasting aliens distracts attention from
the goal.

On Dec 2, 4:32 pm, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

[y offs et]

"I do not understand the purpose of this comment."
Out of context error, I feel.
Please see post Dec 2, 11:35 AM for full critic.

On Dec 3, 1:49 pm, argumzio <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Dec 2, 7:01 pm, y offs et <tree...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> "...are unnecessary distractions from the goal, that being of
>
> > BUILDING WORKING MEMORY.  To me, it is introducing game like executive
> > function hoops to jump through, which distracts attention from
> > concentration on remembering, and thus limits advances in working
> > memory growth to the ability to incorporate mental gymnastics. "
>

> I do not understand the purpose of this comment. Regardless of whether
> or not one realizes the task one is engaged in increases WM this
> should not obstruct or somehow prevent that one does improve one's WM.
> The loops and hoops to my mind seem every bit as vital as the bare-
> bones DNB mode that Jaeggi discussed. If an individual doesn't have
> the intrinsic motive to do the task, then they simply will not do it,
> regardless of the format of the task.
>
> That aside, I myself actually thought about a more game-like version
> of NB training a week ago. It's very flashy, too, but I have no skills
> to implement the idea. It was along the lines of cogfun's 3D DNB
> (http://cognitivefun.net/test/22): a character like the Silver Surfer
> has to reach, say, some planet before it is destroyed, and has to use
> his mind to traverse interstellar distances effectively. He moves
> left, right, up, down, etc., hears hypersounds, and picks up colored,
> changing objects along his path. His path changes based on the
> directions he notes in hyperspace and so on. The better he does this,
> the sooner he arrives to his destination (goes faster or travels
> hyperspace more effectively). Levels of difficulty are easy to
> integrate with this design. One could use controllers byhttp://www.emotiv.com/
> (or whatever else) to make it even more interesting.
>
> This is a very sketchy concept, but it shows how easy the NB model is
> to implement in a potential variety of ways with different plot-lines
> with very little originality. It is simply a matter of inspiring a
> game designer with the know-how to implement whatever strikes his
> fancy, really.
>
> argumzio

[Gwern Branwen]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 8:11 PM, argumzio <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
> I would fully support any ventures to make WM training more game-like
> with all the razzmatazz seen today, provided that the final design
> adheres to the basic model of DNB. We shouldn't shy away from
> complexity. It surrounds us everywhere.
>
> argumzio

But it's a very difficult balancing task. You have to somehow make the
'remembering lots of stuff' crucial to the gameplay, otherwise a user
will do one or the other.

(Imagine if while playing _Halo_, little optional arithmetic problems
popped up. Even players who'd like to get better at math would learn
to ignore them, because pausing to answer them will get them killed,
and no one really enjoys dying.)

And of course, if you create a game which does *anything* but DNB in
its rawest form, it can be criticized for having non-DNB aspects. But
pure raw DNB isn't fun.

A while back, we discussed some spacecraft shooter game used in
cognitive performance boosting studies. ('Space Fortress'?) It serves
as an example that naturally 'game' elements or techniques can
subserve purposes beyond merely sweetening the bitter DNB draught.

--
gwern

[y offs et]

"> But it's a very difficult balancing task. You have to somehow make
the
> 'remembering lots of stuff' crucial to the gameplay, otherwise a user
> will do one or the other.
>
> (Imagine if while playing _Halo_, little optional arithmetic problems
> popped up. Even players who'd like to get better at math would learn
> to ignore them, because pausing to answer them will get them killed,
> and no one really enjoys dying.)"

Yes, this is close to the reason for my initial criticism of BWS.
Being distracted from 'remembering lots of stuff' to navigate the
twists and turns and waves of strictly random generated progressions.
Random is marvelous in that it guarantees patternless progression, yet
evenly spread distribution - when taken to infinity. However, 20+N in
no way approaches infinity. Anyone who has used random in
progressions knows that the result has just as many "clumps as bare
spots as even spread" in the result. Thus, we get backtracking,
repeating and confusing progressions (to us mere mortals) in actual
use of BWS.
As a footnote, this is ignoring the "CHANCE_OF_GUARANTEED_MATCH =
0.25" aspect in the config.ini file; the twist that this applies is
hard to grasp.
Restricted random generated progressions are generated by different
programming techniques, and this would be the basis of any
applications I would create.

On Dec 3, 6:11 pm, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Exvagus]

> (Imagine if while playing _Halo_, little optional arithmetic problems
> popped up. Even players who'd like to get better at math would learn
> to ignore them, because pausing to answer them will get them killed,
> and no one really enjoys dying.)
>

> --
> gwern

It can be used only in some aspects of the game... e.g. hacking
computer (arithmetic?), lockpicking (spatial?), spells (whatever),
creating items (whatever)... ;o)

[y offs et]

"I think I'll set CHANCE_OF_GUARANTEED_MATCH to zero, so I can ride of
the 1/8 chance only from now on."

You know, I tried that. I found I would lose my train of attention
because of the long periods of no matches. So I set it to 0.1 and
that seems pretty good.

On Dec 3, 7:20 pm, argumzio <argum...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That is actually very interesting! To my mind this would increase
> complexity to a maximum!
>
> I think I'll set CHANCE_OF_GUARANTEED_MATCH to zero, so I can ride of
> the 1/8 chance only from now on.
>
> Paul may want to consider the possibility of a variable match, or
> something along those lines.
>
> argumzio