Choline and CVD?
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ailambris
Jun 15, 2011, 11:14:35 PM6/15/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v472/n7341/full/nature09922.html
What does this mean? Take it easy on the Citicoline? What does it mean
for DMAE? Any idea?
What does this mean? Take it easy on the Citicoline? What does it mean
for DMAE? Any idea?
ailambris
Jun 15, 2011, 11:23:26 PM6/15/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
"To our knowledge, the present studies are the first to identify a
direct link between intestinal microflora, dietary PC and CVD risk.
These results indicate that an appropriately designed probiotic
intervention may serve as a therapeutic strategy for CVD.
Interestingly, production of TMAO can be altered by probiotic
administration35. Thus, in addition to the current clinical
recommendation for a general reduction in dietary lipids, manipulation
of commensal microbial composition may be a novel therapeutic approach
for the prevention and treatment of atherosclerotic heart disease and
its complications."
Is a bit of a plus. I wonder if CR (or at least the complete
elimination of sugars from the diet) has the potential to negate these
effects? It would be a tragic thing, having to trade brain health for
whole body wellness. Again though I am interested in DMAE, if it is
actually metabolized in the gut, if it is somehow a way to circumvent
the dangers of a high choline diet?
direct link between intestinal microflora, dietary PC and CVD risk.
These results indicate that an appropriately designed probiotic
intervention may serve as a therapeutic strategy for CVD.
Interestingly, production of TMAO can be altered by probiotic
administration35. Thus, in addition to the current clinical
recommendation for a general reduction in dietary lipids, manipulation
of commensal microbial composition may be a novel therapeutic approach
for the prevention and treatment of atherosclerotic heart disease and
its complications."
Is a bit of a plus. I wonder if CR (or at least the complete
elimination of sugars from the diet) has the potential to negate these
effects? It would be a tragic thing, having to trade brain health for
whole body wellness. Again though I am interested in DMAE, if it is
actually metabolized in the gut, if it is somehow a way to circumvent
the dangers of a high choline diet?
Mike
Jun 16, 2011, 1:02:05 PM6/16/11
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
I wonder if CR (or at least the complete
elimination of sugars from the diet) has the potential to negate these
effects?
Ailambris--how would CR affect this problem? CR and sugar would diminish gut bacteria thus the negative effects of choline metabolism?elimination of sugars from the diet) has the potential to negate these
effects?
DMAE could be a precursor for acetylcholine. are you saying that it would be a good subsitute for choline? another dietary route to producing acetylcholine?
this is very interesting, if you could just confirm what you mean/think it would be very much appreciated!
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bofu
Jun 16, 2011, 3:28:34 PM6/16/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
It would have the same result. Choline bitartrate, citicholine (CDP-
Choline), L-Alpha Glycerylphosphorylcholine (Alpha-GPC), and
phosphatidylcholine are all precursors to choline and the issue lies
in the choline and gut flora connection. DMAE indirectly produces
more choline. The only thing I could see possibly circumventing the
issue would be an acetylcholine reuptake inhibitor like Huperzine A.
Choline), L-Alpha Glycerylphosphorylcholine (Alpha-GPC), and
phosphatidylcholine are all precursors to choline and the issue lies
in the choline and gut flora connection. DMAE indirectly produces
more choline. The only thing I could see possibly circumventing the
issue would be an acetylcholine reuptake inhibitor like Huperzine A.
bofu
Jun 16, 2011, 4:14:50 PM6/16/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I just looked more into the biomechanics of choline closer. It looks
like phosphatidylcholine and choline bitartrate are precursors to
choline and citicholine comes in in-between that same transformation.
Alpha-gpc may not have that same issue since it's a variation of the
compound and translates to acetylcholine (although it's derived from
lecithin, the same as phosphatidylcholine). DMAE produces choline
within the liver, which sounds like it would produce the worse effects
of all. Like I said before, an acetylcholine reuptake inhibitor would
be the way to go - increasing the amount of choline that is already in
the form your brain uses by keeping it around longer.
like phosphatidylcholine and choline bitartrate are precursors to
choline and citicholine comes in in-between that same transformation.
Alpha-gpc may not have that same issue since it's a variation of the
compound and translates to acetylcholine (although it's derived from
lecithin, the same as phosphatidylcholine). DMAE produces choline
within the liver, which sounds like it would produce the worse effects
of all. Like I said before, an acetylcholine reuptake inhibitor would
be the way to go - increasing the amount of choline that is already in
the form your brain uses by keeping it around longer.
ailambris
Jun 16, 2011, 4:30:55 PM6/16/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
I'm not following your thought process. If DMAE is processed to
produce choline by the liver, then we don't have choline metabolites
in the gut, so we don't have the gut flora producing atherosclerosis.
produce choline by the liver, then we don't have choline metabolites
in the gut, so we don't have the gut flora producing atherosclerosis.
bofu
Jun 16, 2011, 6:23:15 PM6/16/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Your right, but after gut flora produces bacteria with substances, the
bacteria moves to the liver. If that is bacteria that is feeding on
choline already from everyday diet that contains choline, you're now
giving it more to feed on while in the liver. That is what I was
getting at.
bacteria moves to the liver. If that is bacteria that is feeding on
choline already from everyday diet that contains choline, you're now
giving it more to feed on while in the liver. That is what I was
getting at.
Paul
Jun 17, 2011, 4:19:38 PM6/17/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Thank you for this interesting discussion. I spend a lot of time with
my gastroenterologist analyzing gut bacteria and how to optimize it.
Indeed, CR will lower circulating glucose levels ( if you choose foods
wisely), but usually greatly increases fiber intake, which bacteria
love. My fiber intake is about 80-90g/ day.
That is OK, if one pays attention to gut health and replenishing bad
bacteria with good.
Hope this is helpful,
Paul
On Jun 16, 1:02 pm, Mike <mikebk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if CR (or at least the complete
> elimination of sugars from the diet) has the potential to negate these
> effects?
>
> Ailambris--how would CR affect this problem? CR and sugar would diminish gut
> bacteria thus the negative effects of choline metabolism?
>
> DMAE could be a precursor for acetylcholine. are you saying that it would be
> a good subsitute for choline? another dietary route to producing
> acetylcholine?
>
> this is very interesting, if you could just confirm what you mean/think it
ailambris
Jun 17, 2011, 6:21:06 PM6/17/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Here is some interesting material on choline and circumin
bioavailability:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/41064982264j3516/
bioavailability:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/41064982264j3516/
jc
Jun 18, 2011, 1:49:18 PM6/18/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
what bacteria are you talking about here? bacteria aren't usually able
to cross the intestinal wall at whim, one of the jobs of the
intestinal wall is to prevent bacterial invasion.
to cross the intestinal wall at whim, one of the jobs of the
intestinal wall is to prevent bacterial invasion.
otto9otto
Jun 18, 2011, 3:09:01 PM6/18/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Lycopene provides powerful protection for the heart. Excessive sitting
has also been identified as an independent cardiac risk factor. Other,
more well-known (no-brainer) heart-protective schemes: don't smoke
tobacco, practice calorie restriction (crsociety.org), consume nuts
and omega-3 oils, control blood pressure, cholesterol, homocysteine,
and triglycerides, and EXERCISE AEROBICALLY! On days that I do not go
to the gym, I use a weighted jump rope in the back yard. The weight
causes the rope to be less buffeted by the wind (there is no room to
do that in the house).
If one does all of that, I would not worry about a little dietary
choline.
has also been identified as an independent cardiac risk factor. Other,
more well-known (no-brainer) heart-protective schemes: don't smoke
tobacco, practice calorie restriction (crsociety.org), consume nuts
and omega-3 oils, control blood pressure, cholesterol, homocysteine,
and triglycerides, and EXERCISE AEROBICALLY! On days that I do not go
to the gym, I use a weighted jump rope in the back yard. The weight
causes the rope to be less buffeted by the wind (there is no room to
do that in the house).
If one does all of that, I would not worry about a little dietary
choline.
whoisbambam
Jun 18, 2011, 6:05:48 PM6/18/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
all i know is gut flora indeed influences health.
as to how to MANAGE this artificially is as of yet undetermined.
there is a lactobacillus HEAL19 for instance that helps with obesity
management.
it can get rather complicated, as studies have shown that 'mixing' pro/
pre-biotics were LESS effective than the individual strains.
what is the *best* one is also unknown to me.
as to how to MANAGE this artificially is as of yet undetermined.
there is a lactobacillus HEAL19 for instance that helps with obesity
management.
it can get rather complicated, as studies have shown that 'mixing' pro/
pre-biotics were LESS effective than the individual strains.
what is the *best* one is also unknown to me.
Mike
Jun 18, 2011, 7:47:07 PM6/18/11
to brain-t...@googlegroups.com
Your right, but after gut flora produces bacteria with substances, the
bacteria moves to the liver.
==bacteria moves to the liver.
bacteria aren't usually able
to cross the intestinal wall at whim, one of the jobs of the
intestinal wall is to prevent bacterial invasion.
If the gut bacteria never reaches the liver, and DMAE gets transformed into choline in the liver or the brain (according to wikipedia below), DMAE could be bypassing this supposed danger of choline metabolism in the gut?
maybe DMAE could be a safer route to increasing acetylcholine in the brain?
anyone can confirm this? I have absolutely no idea whether this is true.
==
Biochemical precursor
Dimethylaminoethanol is related to choline and may be a biochemical precursor to the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, although this conclusion has been disputed.[3] It is believed that dimethylaminoethanol is methylated to produce choline in the brain.[3] It is known that dimethylaminoethanol is processed by the liver into choline; however, the choline molecule is charged and cannot pass the blood-brain barrier.[3]
[edit] Research
Short-term studies have shown an increase in vigilance and alertness with a positive influence on mood following administration of DMAE, vitamins, and minerals.[4] Research for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) has been promising, though inconclusive.[5] Long-term studies are equivocal. Some showed dimethylaminoethanol to increase the lifespan of animals in which it was tested, while others indicate a possible reduction in the average life span of quail.[6]
ailambris
Jun 18, 2011, 8:50:26 PM6/18/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
Neither do I have any idea, but it seems reasonable to draw that
conclusion. If you read into the study I provided in the initial
posting, you see that phosphatidylcholine, or lecithin, creates an
environment gastroenterologically that we are trying to avoid, and
that also choline supplementation on its own has a similar effect.
(See section "Dietary choline or TMAO promotes atherosclerosis".) This
means that even Citicoline supplementation, which happens to be
hydrolyzed to choline and cytadine or choline and uridine (I'm not
positive) before absorption, should theoretically have a similarly
deleterious effect on health, and should probably be kept to a
minimum. Because dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is not metabolized in the
same way, and because the literature suggests (though cannot prove
definitively) that it upregulates acetylcholine levels in the brain,
it may be an effective work around. I've looked around and I cannot
find any where any thing that suggests that DMAE is metabolized into
choline, or into TMAO, or into betaine, leading me to draw this
conclusion, but please take it with a grain of salt because my
training is not in Biology. I should also point out that the
elimination of choline or lecithin from the diet is probably
unreasonable, and I only brought this up to bring it to the attention
of the group.
On Jun 18, 4:47 pm, Mike <mikebk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your right, but after gut flora produces bacteria with substances, the
> bacteria moves to the liver.
> precursor to the neurotransmitter
> acetylcholine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcholine>, although this
> conclusion has been
> disputed.[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE#cite_note-Zahniser-2>It
> brain.[3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE#cite_note-Zahniser-2> It is
> [edit<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dimethylethanolamine&action...>
> deficit hyperactivity
> disorder<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder>(ADHD)
> quail <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quail>.[6]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE#cite_note-5>
conclusion. If you read into the study I provided in the initial
posting, you see that phosphatidylcholine, or lecithin, creates an
environment gastroenterologically that we are trying to avoid, and
that also choline supplementation on its own has a similar effect.
(See section "Dietary choline or TMAO promotes atherosclerosis".) This
means that even Citicoline supplementation, which happens to be
hydrolyzed to choline and cytadine or choline and uridine (I'm not
positive) before absorption, should theoretically have a similarly
deleterious effect on health, and should probably be kept to a
minimum. Because dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is not metabolized in the
same way, and because the literature suggests (though cannot prove
definitively) that it upregulates acetylcholine levels in the brain,
it may be an effective work around. I've looked around and I cannot
find any where any thing that suggests that DMAE is metabolized into
choline, or into TMAO, or into betaine, leading me to draw this
conclusion, but please take it with a grain of salt because my
training is not in Biology. I should also point out that the
elimination of choline or lecithin from the diet is probably
unreasonable, and I only brought this up to bring it to the attention
of the group.
On Jun 18, 4:47 pm, Mike <mikebk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your right, but after gut flora produces bacteria with substances, the
> bacteria moves to the liver.
> ==
> bacteria aren't usually able
> to cross the intestinal wall at whim, one of the jobs of the
> intestinal wall is to prevent bacterial invasion.
> ==
>
> If the gut bacteria never reaches the liver, and DMAE gets transformed into
> choline in the liver or the brain (according to wikipedia below), DMAE could
> be bypassing this supposed danger of choline metabolism in the gut?
>
> maybe DMAE could be a safer route to increasing acetylcholine in the brain?
> anyone can confirm this? I have absolutely no idea whether this is true.
>
> ==
> Biochemical precursor
>
> Dimethylaminoethanol is related to
> choline<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choline>and may be a biochemical
> bacteria aren't usually able
> to cross the intestinal wall at whim, one of the jobs of the
> intestinal wall is to prevent bacterial invasion.
> ==
>
> If the gut bacteria never reaches the liver, and DMAE gets transformed into
> choline in the liver or the brain (according to wikipedia below), DMAE could
> be bypassing this supposed danger of choline metabolism in the gut?
>
> maybe DMAE could be a safer route to increasing acetylcholine in the brain?
> anyone can confirm this? I have absolutely no idea whether this is true.
>
> ==
> Biochemical precursor
>
> Dimethylaminoethanol is related to
> precursor to the neurotransmitter
> acetylcholine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcholine>, although this
> conclusion has been
> disputed.[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE#cite_note-Zahniser-2>It
> is believed that dimethylaminoethanol is
> methylated <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl> to produce choline in the
> brain.[3] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE#cite_note-Zahniser-2> It is
> known that dimethylaminoethanol is processed by the
> liver<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver>into choline; however, the
> choline molecule is charged and cannot pass the blood-brain
> barrier <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood-brain_barrier>.[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE#cite_note-Zahniser-2>
> [edit<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dimethylethanolamine&action...>
> ] Research
>
> Short-term studies have shown an increase in vigilance and alertness with a
> positive influence on
> mood<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mood_%28psychology%29>following
>
> Short-term studies have shown an increase in vigilance and alertness with a
> positive influence on
> administration of DMAE, vitamins, and minerals.
> [4] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE#cite_note-3> Research for attention
> deficit hyperactivity
> disorder<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder>(ADHD)
> has been promising, though inconclusive.
> [5] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE#cite_note-4> Long-term studies are
> equivocal. Some showed dimethylaminoethanol to increase the lifespan of
> animals in which it was tested, while others indicate a possible reduction
> in the average life span <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average_life_span> of
> animals in which it was tested, while others indicate a possible reduction
> quail <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quail>.[6]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMAE#cite_note-5>
whoisbambam
Jun 18, 2011, 9:57:39 PM6/18/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
ailambris,
and i am grateful to you that you did: thank you.
I had no idea of the deliterious effect.
i have a very positive CAD family history--grandfather died in his 40s
and my lipid ratios suck (very, very, very low hdl, as low as 9, as
high as 17, and ideally it should be 50 for a male)
thank you.
i guess i wont be taking my cdp choline anymore (altho i feel it was
inneffective anyway and hadnt been using it)
so i guess this leaves dmae and alpha gpc for those that want that
path.
and i am grateful to you that you did: thank you.
I had no idea of the deliterious effect.
i have a very positive CAD family history--grandfather died in his 40s
and my lipid ratios suck (very, very, very low hdl, as low as 9, as
high as 17, and ideally it should be 50 for a male)
thank you.
i guess i wont be taking my cdp choline anymore (altho i feel it was
inneffective anyway and hadnt been using it)
so i guess this leaves dmae and alpha gpc for those that want that
path.
Arky
Jun 21, 2011, 11:37:33 PM6/21/11
to Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence
What about ALCAR?
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