Piracetam experience report
Gwern Branwen
smartpowders.com, and I've tried it out for several days (started on 7
September 2009, and used it steadily up to mid-December). I've varied
my dose from 3 grams to 12 grams (at least, I think the little scoop
measures in grams), taking them in my tea or bitter fruit juice
(cranberry works best, although orange juice masks it pretty well). 3
grams (alone) didn't seem to do much of anything while 12 grams gave
me a nasty headache. I also ate 2 or 3 eggs a day.
Subjectively, I don't notice drastic changes. Here's what I do notice:
- My thinking seems a little clearer
- I'm not so easy to tire - I went through a month's worth of my
Wikipedia watchlist with less fatigue than usual, and n-backing
doesn't seem so tiring.
- DNB-wise, eyeballing my stats file seems to indicate a small
increase: when I compare peak scores D4B scores, I see mostly 50s and
a few 60s before piracetam, and after starting piracetam, a few 70s
mixed into the 50s and 60s. Natural increase from training? Dunno -
I've been stuck on D4B since June, so 5 or 10% in a week or 3 seems a
little suspicious. The full list of scores from then to now is:
28,61,36,25,61,57,39,56,23,37,24,50,54,32,50,33,16,42,41,40,34,33,31,65,23,36,29,51,46,31,45,52,30,50,29,36,57,60,34,48,32,41,48,34,51,40,53,73,56,53,53,57,46,50,35,50,60,62,30,60,48,46,52,60,60,48,47,34,50,51,45,54,70,48,61,43,53,60,44,57,50,50,52,37,55,40,53,48,50,52,44,50,50,38,43,66,40,24,67,60,71,54,51,60,41,58,20,28,42,53,59,42,31,60,42,58,36,48,53,46,25,53,57,60,35,46,32,26,68,45,20,51,56,48,25,62,50,54,47,42,55,39,60,44,32,50,34,60,47,70,68,38,47,48,70,51,42,41,35,36,39,23,50,46,44,56,50,39
- The other day, I also noticed I was fidgeting less
- After a week or two, I *think* I noticed better reflexes - both in
catching falling cups and the saccading in BW seems slightly easier.
But I could be imagining this since I just saw an Erowid report
mentioning better reflexes & I may've read that one before I started.
(Darn those subconscious impressions and memories! :)
(The actual stats file is attached in case anyone wants to look for themselves.)
After 7 days, I ordered a kg of choline bitartrate from
bulkpowders.com. I figured I couldn't fairly test piracetam without
some regular choline - the eggs might not be enough, might be the
wrong kind, etc. It has a quite distinctly fishy smell, but the actual
taste is more citrusy, and it seems to neutralize the piracetam taste
in tea (which makes things much easier for me).
The first day (22 September) I took ~10g since I was taking 5g of
piracetam; I wound up with some diarrhea & farting. Oops.
On the plus side:
- I noticed the less-fatigue thing to a greater extent, getting out of
my classes much less tired than usual. (Caveat: my sleep schedule
recently changed for the saner recently, so it's possible that's
responsible. I think it's more the piracetam+choline, though.)
- One thing I wasn't expecting was a decrease in my appetite - nobody
had mentioned that in their reports.I don't like being bothered by my
appetite (I know how to eat fine without it reminding me), so I count
this as a plus.
- Fidgeting was reduced further
The second day I went with ~6g of choline; much less intestinal
distress, but similar effects vis-a-vis fidgeting, loss of appetite, &
reduced fatigue.
So in general I thought this was a positive experience, but I'm not
sure it was worth 40$ for ~2 months' worth, and it was tedious
consuming it. Right now I'm trying huperzine, which has advantages in
compactness, taste, and price, but still no real idea about its
effect.
--
gwern
Pheonoxia
your mouth?
I agree that it hastens reflexes, and this is mainly due to its affect
on acetylcholine receptors. My fingers seemed to move much faster, and
I imagined that if I played guitar, it would've increased the speed at
which I could accurately pick the strings.
Piracetam seemed to make me think faster, albeit harnessing some
undesirable side effects.
Gwern Branwen
> Isn't piracetam powder the nastiest substance you've ever put into
> your mouth?
It is impressively nasty. I'm not sure it's the *nastiest* though;
citrus juices cut the taste quite effectively.
> I agree that it hastens reflexes, and this is mainly due to its affect
> on acetylcholine receptors. My fingers seemed to move much faster, and
> I imagined that if I played guitar, it would've increased the speed at
> which I could accurately pick the strings.
Glad to hear someone else noticed it as well; 3 is a trend. Just as
creatine has overlooked intellectual benefits, maybe piracetam has
overlooked athletic benefits. :)
> Piracetam seemed to make me think faster, albeit harnessing some
> undesirable side effects.
Like spending money! But seriously, if it were 1 or 5$ a month, I'd
definitely still be using it. 10 or 20$ is just too high a percentage
of my discretionary budget for my miserly soul.
--
gwern
Michael Campbell
> On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 6:29 PM, Pheonoxia <b...@brockman.info> wrote:
>
>> Isn't piracetam powder the nastiest substance you've ever put into
>> your mouth?
>>
>
> It is impressively nasty. I'm not sure it's the *nastiest* though;
> citrus juices cut the taste quite effectively.
>
Oxiracetam is much, much nicer to the palate. But much, much pricier
too, sadly.
argumzio
regularly for a few months now (2.4g-6.8g/day) and notice similar
results/side-effects.
http://www.devdelay.org/newsletter/articles/html/308-piracetam.html
As the above suggests, motor skills definitely become more fine-tuned
and increase in refined automaticity, and I think the upregulated
functionality of the cerebellum has a lot to do with this (and beyond
motor skills, since the cerebellum seems to be involved in other
complex processes). Doing everyday things seems to become effortless,
anyway. The downside is that one can become too carried away by the
ease with which things can be accomplished, i.e., hyperactive, so the
metacognitive brakes must be used every now and then.
What I've noticed that no one else has reported: headaches can be
alleviated not only by acetylcholine but by increased sugar; although
this must be done with care, because increased sugar (glucose) in
one's diet is not a good thing. (Adage: the dose makes the poison.)
Fructose and lactose also help; fructose more so.
argumzio
milestones
oxiracetam and I am not sure I felt that much of a difference between
piracetam and oxi so I went back to piracetam. I don't feel any side
effects from either. It is shown that oxiracetam is supposed to help
memory, and from what I can tell I don't really need more help there,
given I do n backing which is memory intensive. I do find that
piracetam helps me in subtle ways, really helps me stay calm,
emotionally balanced. Also, it helps with reading speed. I've also
just a few days ago began with creatine. I have no idea of what the
effect will be here as I just started to take it...but a double blind
placebo study showed increase in non verbal IQ (Raven's) and working
memory (backward digit span) back in 2003. Also, I work out at the gym/
weight lift and so this is an added benefit for physical fitness.
(This creatine study got a lot of attention and so can be found by way
of googling it. Most of you are probably familiar with it). I am
interested to see if I can get benefit from creatine and piracetam
combined together. Creatine I will cycle off of from time to time.
Also, I do take a choline souce -- Alpha GPC of about 250/300 mg a
day. My piracetam intake is about 4-6 grams a days, sometimes powder,
sometimes capsule...
argumzio
creatine in my own exercise regime (anaerobic and aerobic) but wasn't
aware that it would boost—even my already high?—fluid IQ.
CDP-choline, or citicoline, (250mg/day) is also very helpful with
memory processes.
I am curious to what extent handedness plays a role in the (perceived)
effects of racetam users. It is known from postmortem observations
that those who are ambidextrous and left-handed have an 11% larger
corpus callosum than right-handed people. (I score at the middle
decile on the Edignburgh Handedness Inventory, and I have noticed some
benefits while using piracetam, which I mostly attribute to increased
cerebellar engagement.) As is known by DNB trainers, this has real
effects in terms of training, since dextrals are known to benefit by
saccading for a short period before training while ambidextrals and
sinistrals do not.
Incidentally, another battery of fun tests related to handedness
relates to auditory illusions. See http://philomel.com/musical_illusions/
for some examples created by Diana Deutsch. She said it was not
surprising for someone with my handedness to experience these the way
I did.
argumzio
Gwern Branwen
> Thanks for the notice, milestones. I have been thinking about using
> creatine in my own exercise regime (anaerobic and aerobic) but wasn't
> aware that it would boost—even my already high?—fluid IQ.
>
> CDP-choline, or citicoline, (250mg/day) is also very helpful with
> memory processes.
>
> I am curious to what extent handedness plays a role in the (perceived)
> effects of racetam users. It is known from postmortem observations
> that those who are ambidextrous and left-handed have an 11% larger
> corpus callosum than right-handed people. (I score at the middle
> decile on the Edignburgh Handedness Inventory, and I have noticed some
> benefits while using piracetam, which I mostly attribute to increased
> cerebellar engagement.) As is known by DNB trainers, this has real
> effects in terms of training, since dextrals are known to benefit by
> saccading for a short period before training while ambidextrals and
> sinistrals do not.
I'm right-handed, FWIW. (People may remember that I also benefited
from saccading.)
--
gwern
Pheonoxia
cognition only administered to vegetarians? Meat eaters naturally
consume creatine, and its affect on cognition plateaus, so there's no
need to supplement if you're already an omnivore.
Gwern Branwen
Check the uploads for the few studies available. Vegetarian young and
carnivorous old benefited, but not carnivorous youngsters.
--
gwern
Gwern Branwen
...
> Subjectively, I don't notice drastic changes. Here's what I do notice:
> - My thinking seems a little clearer
> - I'm not so easy to tire - I went through a month's worth of my
> Wikipedia watchlist with less fatigue than usual, and n-backing
> doesn't seem so tiring.
> - DNB-wise, eyeballing my stats file seems to indicate a small
> increase: when I compare peak scores D4B scores, I see mostly 50s and
> a few 60s before piracetam, and after starting piracetam, a few 70s
> mixed into the 50s and 60s. Natural increase from training? Dunno -
> I've been stuck on D4B since June, so 5 or 10% in a week or 3 seems a
> little suspicious. The full list of scores from then to now is:
> 28,61,36,25,61,57,39,56,23,37,24,50,54,32,50,33,16,42,41,40,34,33,31,65,23,36,29,51,46,31,45,52,30,50,29,36,57,60,34,48,32,41,48,34,51,40,53,73,56,53,53,57,46,50,35,50,60,62,30,60,48,46,52,60,60,48,47,34,50,51,45,54,70,48,61,43,53,60,44,57,50,50,52,37,55,40,53,48,50,52,44,50,50,38,43,66,40,24,67,60,71,54,51,60,41,58,20,28,42,53,59,42,31,60,42,58,36,48,53,46,25,53,57,60,35,46,32,26,68,45,20,51,56,48,25,62,50,54,47,42,55,39,60,44,32,50,34,60,47,70,68,38,47,48,70,51,42,41,35,36,39,23,50,46,44,56,50,39
> - The other day, I also noticed I was fidgeting less
> - After a week or two, I *think* I noticed better reflexes - both in
> catching falling cups and the saccading in BW seems slightly easier.
> But I could be imagining this since I just saw an Erowid report
> mentioning better reflexes & I may've read that one before I started.
> (Darn those subconscious impressions and memories! :)
>
> (The actual stats file is attached in case anyone wants to look for themselves.)
> So in general I thought this was a positive experience, but I'm not
> sure it was worth 40$ for ~2 months' worth, and it was tedious
> consuming it. Right now I'm trying huperzine, which has advantages in
> compactness, taste, and price, but still no real idea about its
> effect.
To follow up on this a month or two later: I think the score rise was
real. After I ran out, I didn't get another score in the 70s for ~2
months, until 2 days ago! And there is a noticeable general drop:
2009-12-15 23:47:18,D4B,70,2,4,6,50,1,3,93,41,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-15 23:49:44,D4B,68,2,4,6,50,1,4,80,50,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-15 23:51:33,D4B,38,2,4,6,50,1,5,50,27,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-15 23:53:08,D4B,47,2,4,6,50,1,6,87,23,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-16 23:40:48,D4B,48,2,4,6,50,1,1,75,35,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-16 23:42:09,D4B,70,2,4,6,50,1,2,80,62,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-16 23:43:43,D4B,51,2,4,6,50,1,3,73,31,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-16 23:45:02,D4B,42,2,4,6,50,1,4,62,33,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-16 23:46:21,D4B,41,2,4,6,50,1,5,76,0,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-17 15:18:46,D4B,35,2,4,6,50,1,1,33,36,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-17 15:20:18,D4B,36,2,4,6,50,1,2,22,43,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-17 15:24:35,D4B,39,2,4,6,50,1,3,56,23,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-17 15:27:11,D4B,23,2,4,6,50,1,4,25,22,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-17 15:29:56,D4B,50,2,4,6,50,1,5,64,37,0,0,0,0,0
# stopped piracetam somewhere around here
2009-12-20 23:44:42,D4B,46,2,4,6,50,1,1,61,30,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-20 23:46:15,D4B,44,2,4,6,50,1,2,66,29,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-20 23:47:50,D4B,56,2,4,6,50,1,3,81,33,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-20 23:49:17,D4B,50,2,4,6,50,1,4,36,63,0,0,0,0,0
2009-12-20 23:50:51,D4B,39,2,4,6,50,1,5,53,20,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-06 23:10:47,D4B,38,2,4,6,50,1,1,33,50,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-06 23:12:15,D4B,30,2,4,6,50,1,2,70,0,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-06 23:13:46,D4B,51,2,4,6,50,1,3,66,33,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-06 23:15:11,D4B,50,2,4,6,50,1,4,66,22,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-06 23:16:41,D4B,55,2,4,6,50,1,5,85,26,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-07 21:07:24,D4B,60,2,4,6,50,1,1,77,50,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-07 21:09:53,D4B,61,2,4,6,50,1,2,90,40,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-07 21:11:28,D4B,65,2,4,6,50,1,3,90,46,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-07 21:13:35,D4B,43,2,4,6,50,1,4,76,17,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-07 21:15:11,D4B,50,2,4,6,50,1,5,60,40,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-07 22:52:10,D4B,58,2,4,6,60,1,1,53,64,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-07 22:54:00,D4B,52,2,4,6,60,1,2,73,38,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-07 22:55:51,D4B,40,2,4,6,60,1,3,76,18,0,0,0,0,0
2010-01-07 22:58:13,D4B,46,2,4,6,60,1,4,53,40,0,0,0,0,0
Note that after, the mean seems to drop, and the closest I come to 70 is 65.
(Incidentally, in BW 4.8 I understand that you'll be able to insert #
comments into your stats file, like I've done with mine.)
(If anyone was wondering about the huperzine-A, I haven't noticed much
of anything, but I feel it's not a fair trial until I take it with
choline. It's an anti-cholinesterase, after all.)
--
gwern
Pheonoxia
won't get as incapacitated as quickly, allowing you get drunker w/o
passing or blacking out.