Lucid dreaming
Gwern Branwen
collection of papers on lucid dreaming, and in its "The
Psychophysiology of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge, I saw this
interesting quote:
> "Why then is CNS activation necessary for lucid dreaming? Evidently the high level of cognitive function involved in lucid dreaming requires a correspondingly high level of neuronal activation. In terms of Antrobus's (1986) adaptation of Anderson's (1983) ACT* model of cognition to dreaming, working memory capacity is proportional to cognitive activation, which in turn is proporitional to cortical activation. Becoming lucid requires an adequate level of working memory to active the presleep intention to recognize that one is dreaming. This level of activation is apparently not always available during sleep but normally only during phasic REM."
Interesting; I know one person asked about dreams, and one or two
others reported more vivid dreams, but I don't think there've been any
reported lucid dreams (or lucid dreamers in this group period). Maybe
after I finish up with piracetam and modafinil, I'll turn my hand to
lucid dreaming. (I've only ever had the 'pre-lucid' dreams where you
realize that you're dreaming but go along with it, so it'll be a new
thing to try.)
On a side note, I recently say Tim Feriss recommend an obscure drug by
the name of huperzine for the purpose of lucid dreaming; it apparently
is usually used for memory aid. But reports are rather thing on the
ground about huperzine. Thoughts?
--
gwern
TheQ17
state. You are not fully in REM sleep while doing it and thus there
really isn't much of a replenishing value in doing it besides it being
a neat experience.
How are you making out with the piracetam and modafinil?
By the way, huperzine is a herbal supplement. If you would like to try
it GNC carries it.
Gwern Branwen
>
> I think lucid dreaming is just the ability to stay in a half conscious
> state. You are not fully in REM sleep while doing it and thus there
> really isn't much of a replenishing value in doing it besides it being
> a neat experience.
Well, I've been reading through the research papers and looking at
their data, and while it does seem to be the case that many lucid
dreams start while half-awake, they then go into what is
physiologically identical to REM sleep. And other lucid dreams just
start during REM sleep.
(Now, how does one distinguish lucid+REM from just REM? The lucid
researchers' answer is quite clever: the dreamer goes through a set
pattern of eye movements; eyes being the only muscles not cut off
completely during sleep, the lucid dreamer can still control them.)
> How are you making out with the piracetam and modafinil?
I'm on the piracetam & choline now. It's going fine once I figured out
the dosage that wouldn't roil my intestines or disgust my tongue. I've
been keeping notes and will send an email once I've done the
piracetam/choline for a ~week, so I have at least a small set of
N-back statistics.
> By the way, huperzine is a herbal supplement. If you would like to try
> it GNC carries it.
Yeah, I know. (The herbal thing, not GNC.) But when I saw that they
priced melatonin at something like 10 times the generic melatonin in
the supermarket next door, I vowed to never buy a single thing from
GNC. What really gives me pause is one description of huperzine as the
'little brother' of the racetams - they're not that strong!
--
gwern
Reece
it is quite effective for both lucid dreaming and increasing dream
recall if taken shortly before bed, not to mention the other benefits
you'd expect from a potent acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. I haven't
had anything in the way of negative side effects when I've stuck to a
5 day/week dosage of 200mcg.
I've never tried piracetam, however oxiracetam felt like a placebo
when compared to the benefits I've received from huperzine A. At
larger doses, I've found huperzine A to be far more powerful than any
nootropic I've ever tried (haven't tried any prescription meds such as
deprenyl), however the side effects such as blurry vision and light-
headedness weren't something I could tolerate.
Bobby Arnold
Michael Campbell
> Maybe
> after I finish up with piracetam and modafinil, I'll turn my hand to
> lucid dreaming. (I've only ever had the 'pre-lucid' dreams where you
> realize that you're dreaming but go along with it, so it'll be a new
> thing to try.)
I've had that on occasion; not often, and certainly random.
By the by, what are your thoughts on Piracetam? I'm taking it but not regularly
(enough). Not sure I can see much improvement, though I'm not sure how to
measure that, really. Having had a loved one go through Alzheimers to the
end, I'm really working my brain more than I probably otherwise would have, just
to keep it active as much as I can.
Thanks
Reece
memory. Seems to be a fairly good MAO-B inhibitor and also has a few
studies suggesting it might be beneficial for AD:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16676329?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
. I must admit, I was somewhat skeptical of Chinese herbs and the lack
of studies of their effects outside China at first, however I've been
very fortunate to have discovered huperzine and look forward to giving
this one a try.
On 23 sep, 20:37, Michael Campbell <michael.campb...@unixgeek.com>
wrote:
LSaul
I've actually recently tried to take up lucid dreaming again. It came
up in research topic as I tried to explore and understand more about
consciousness. I've been keeping a dream journal for the last month or
so now, and I feel that I'm relatively close. I've been remembering
more and more details about my dreams as I continue to jot notes upon
waking. There was one morning when I was actually able to recall up to
3 dreams from the previous night.
My goal is to be able to experience dreams as vividly as when I was
younger. I used to have many vivid dreams, which were so real that
upon waking I would look for items which were given to me in the dream
world. Pretty intense. Also I've experienced flying/falling to the
point where you can feel the tickle in the pit of your stomach as if
you were actually reaching these heights physically.
I've been reading more and more about it to keep the conscious
awareness "on alert" when I enter the dream world. There are many
methods to induce lucid dreaming but for now I'm going to stick to the
most basic which is DILD or Dream induced lucid dreaming.
Two sites which I've found to be incredibly useful for this topic are:
http://www.dreamviews.com/
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/
The goal for for me is to truly understand that our awareness is not
limited to this physical body as far as consciousness is concerned.
That may be a topic for another day though. Thanks so much for
recommending that herbal supplement (huperzine A) . I've been taking
goji and feel a bit happier, but it hasn't helped me in the dreamscape
so far.
Best of luck
On Sep 24, 5:07 am, Reece <rockyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Uncaria rhynchophylla has been one herb I've been wanting to try for
> memory. Seems to be a fairly good MAO-B inhibitor and also has a few
Gwern Branwen
Huperzine is stronger than oxiracetam? Everybody I've heard compare
them describes oxiracetam as being stronger, so if piracetam <
oxiracetam < huperzine... I think I'm probably going to conclude that
piracetam has been worthwhile, which means that I simply must look
into huperzine.
While we're on the topic (and I really hate to keep bringing up
supplements and stuff which I feel aren't in this mailing list's
mission statement, but since so many of us seem to be knowledgeable or
interested in it...):
1. Were/are you taking the huperzine with a choline supplement?
2. Where did you acquire it? There seem to be quite a number of
possible retailers, but sourcing is even more important for herbal
products than a nice synthesized supplement.
3. Suggested dosage seems to vary between 100mcg and 200mcg; did you
settle on the latter by experimentation or is that just the dose of
whatever supplier you happen to use?
4. You speak of high dosages. How high is high? Did you do any
objective tests of that 'strong' nootropic effect or was this just
subjective impression of quickness?
5. Besides effects on dreaming, were the effects of huperzine just
like that of oxiracetam (but stronger)?
(Also, I found a study showing greater benefits for huperzine than
piracetam: "Wang Z, Ren G, Zhao Y, et al. A double-blind study of
huperzine A and piracetam in patients with age-associated memory
impairment and dementia. In: Kanba S, Richelson E (eds). Herbal
Medicines for Nonpsychiatric Diseases. Tokyo: Seiwa Shoten Publishers,
1999, 39–50.")
--
gwern
Rob Perry
My view is the mind dreams certain dreams for a reason. When you interrupt those dreams and start modifying the "script" of the dream, you're affecting the mind's ability to accomplish what it's trying to accomplish by dreaming.
15 years ago I experimented with the double-take time method of getting into a lucid dream state. Basically you make a habit during waking hours of always looking at the time twice. Believe it or not when you dream you see the time or look at a clock. If you get in the habit of always looking twice at any clock/watch/computer time, when you're dreaming you'll do it too. Because the brain doesn't track time during dreaming, you'll see two entirely different times when you're dreaming. That's your method for interrupting the dream cycle and being able to take control. The first few times you do this you'll wake up because you'll be so startled to realize you're in a dream. But if you remember to be very calm, you can 'take the reigns' of the dream and direct anything to happen - tell yourself you can fly and fly to Hawaii; go talk to Albert Einstein, etc.
LSaul
I think it's important to realize that caution should be used with
everything we discuss in this forum. Training your brain can be
fatiguing to say the least, and we are indeed re-wiring our brain. We
only hope that it is for the best, but one can never know for sure.
With that, I understand your stance on lucid dreaming, but I'm not so
sure we are interrupting anything that important. I don't believe we
could entirely interrupt the basic pattern of the dream sequence we
are in. We might just be able to have more influence and play out
mental experiments much faster and safer in our dreamscape.
From what I've researched about dreaming, often we have repeating
patterns, or dream guides who appear as frequent guests. These parts
are things which I don't believe we can control entirely. When you get
into lucid dreaming you are taking conscious control, and the dreams
become more vivid. For this reason, I think it takes a more prominent
role in the waking consciousness, and if anything we become much more
aware of their meaning.
I doubt that we could entirely change our dream patterns any more than
we can control our personal habits and self-view in waking life. In
the end it comes down to practice and persistence. If anyone gains
entire control of their dream world, then I would say they've done
something incredible with their mind indeed!
Think about that, how cool would it be to go talk a great historic
personality and have your questions answered by Einstein, or DaVinci.
Awesome, great comment Rob.
Reece
I wasn't using a choline supplement. I was using the Cognitive
Nutrition brand which I purchased on BodyBuilding.com. From what I've
heard over at ImmInst and a few nootropic boards, it seems like the
racetams have very different effects on different people. I
experimented with dosages up to 400mcg and ultimately settled with
200mcg. The effects of huperzine seemed very much dose-dependant with
larger doses producing both more positive and negative side effects. I
did a fair bit of research before taking it and huperzine has been
used in some short term studies with dosages as high as 800mcg. Short
term studies are of course quite different from taking a supplement
for life and I haven't seen sufficient evidence to suggest to me it's
safe to take such large dosages. I've read on a few sites such as
LEF.org that it's a good idea to take days off every once in awhile --
I usually take it 5 days per week. Unlike oxiracetam and a few other
nootropics I've tried such as vinpocetine and alpha-GPC, huperzine's
effects did take some time before becoming evident. I found Oxiracetam
to have a somewhat "speedy" effect -- you would certainly know you
took something if someone slipped that in your drink! As for effects,
Oxiracetam seemed to help most with verbal fluency (auditory working
memory?) and creativity. Huperzine helped more with working memory
although it didn't have some of the interesting effects Oxiracetam had
on creativity, nor the speedy rush that sometimes seemed like a
powerful motivator to get work done.
I'm sure different people would find one more beneficial than the
other. My main deficit happens to be working memory (hence my interest
in n-back), so Huperzine was a better fit for me.
From what I understand, Oxiracetam increases acetylcholine, whereas
Huperzine prevents acetylcholine from being broken down, so different
people would presumably benefit more from one or the other. Perhaps
the best combination would be a smaller dose of both? I'm a bit
worried however to take anything that'll increase acetylcholine with
something that prevents it from being broken down.
On 24 sep, 19:45, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
Gwern Branwen
I've added some quotes from you to the FAQ, and set up a section for just supplements (since now we have endorsements for 3 different supplements).
It's too bad that you didn't take choline with your oxiracetam, since I definitely noticed an increase in piracetam's effectiveness with choline; it makes it harder to compare.
I think I will experiment, whenever I get some huperzine, with combining piracetam/choline/huperzine (only adding one at a time of course). The worst effects, so far, from choline or piracetam was some indigestion or a headache, and I've never heard of of any 'acetycholine storm' analogous to serotonin storms, so I'm not too worried.
--
gwern