Modafinil, was, Re: Is dual n back a working memory enhancer
Gwern Branwen
> What is your _opinion_ about the relationship between modafinil and
> creativity, especially when it relates to divergent thinking (a
> component of such)?
I don't know of any research addressing it. Modafinil works in an
entirely different way than the amphetamines and most stimulants, so
they aren't relevant. My own anecdotal experience with Adderall
blind-testing was that repetitive uncreative writing was a good clue
as to whether I had taken placebo or Adderall, while on modafinil, my
writing seems normal or better than usual.
On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 11:38 PM, whoisbambam <a2...@horseracingfirm.com> wrote:
> I think i recently read
> someting about this regarding botox injections, wherein a plastic
> surgeon ordered some of his supplies from an online retailer, and the
> patients he used it on were in the ICU for days with chronic health
> problems to follow
Poisons *are* kind of dangerous to begin with...
On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 12:12 AM, ☉ <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Interestingly, I see this note at gwern's website (posted after I
> bought it): "the spierx modafinil that Edandmore sells is fake but the
> sun pharma modafinil that edandmore sells is real."
>
> If so, then I wonder what exactly it is I've experienced thus far?
> Hmm... Now I wonder what the "real" stuff is. Well, I'll try them
> next.
I dunno what's up with SpierX. My working theory is that it's simply
low quality modafinil. Sun* is a real pharmacorp, while SpierX is...
something. Speaking of Sun, I recently ordered some of their
'Waklert', which is armodafinil (generic for Nuvigil), although I
still don't understand how Sun is allowed to manufacture it given the
patent situation.
* https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sun_Pharmaceutical
On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 12:24 AM, whoisbambam <a2...@horseracingfirm.com> wrote:
>
> i would try to cross-reference your choices from qwerns list with
> pharmacyreviewer.com and perhaps post in http://overseaspharmacy.com/forum/
> and get some other insider info--it seems to me qwern's list quality
> is 'questionable' according to some reviews. personally, i have no
> idea.
The goal is more completeness than quality, since it's so hard to gauge quality.
> i thought jonathan once mentioned thepharmacyexpress.com but i could
> be mistaken.
IIRC, he ordered from edandmore, canceled it once he noticed my little
warning about it; he apparently usually ordered from
thepharmacyexpress.com.
On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 12:48 AM, ☉ <argu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I did a quick search on the matter of fakery in modafinil sourcing,
> and the sites you described came up. It is amusing to me, however,
> that if what I have so far been taking is indeed fake, then the
> effects I've witnessed must derive some other kind of effect, and the
> substance I possess is not like caffeine in any respect that I've seen
> hitherto. If it were, say, some kind of non-nootropic substance, then
> I am extremely amused by the sort of output I've been able to produce
> despite (or because of) it – on a speculative level, as if one weren't
> sure a film were all that good based purely on its reviews. In the
> case that (from my view highly unlikely) the substance is a placebo,
> then I might as well kick back and enjoy my own ride.
Blind yourself and test it out. If you're going to take something
long-term, it's important to know whether it's placebo or not. If it
is placebo, then you can minimize your costs by mixing in cheap
regular placebos among the 'real' placebos and save yourself money.
(The bad thing about cognitive biases is that they are exploitable;
the good thing about cognitive biases is that they are exploitable. I
wrote a nifty comment recently on something similar with fine wines:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3174950 )
--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net
☉
> I dunno what's up with SpierX. My working theory is that it's simply
> low quality modafinil. Sun* is a real pharmacorp, while SpierX is...
> something. Speaking of Sun, I recently ordered some of their
> 'Waklert', which is armodafinil (generic for Nuvigil), although I
> still don't understand how Sun is allowed to manufacture it given the
> patent situation.
>
> *https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sun_Pharmaceutical
>
Modafinil is fake, and those who've made the claims so far don't
provide convincing evidence, e.g., a comparison of the two in a double-
blind fashion. (Yes, it is a little powdery, but that isn't a strong
indication of deceit; plenty of substances appear that way by not
being coated.) And I have no prior experience with "real" modafinil,
insofar as I have yet to verify the chemical constituents of the
product I currently have; however, I suppose it won't hurt to try
another source for the heck of it afterwards. (One also has to keep in
mind of those who post misleading information either maliciously or
out of simple ignorance.)
The background checks into either companies should be extensive to
provide an adequate measure of trustworthiness, but such isn't always
an easy thing to accomplish (without putting out cash or something),
so it is a lottery game with an unknown probability (=desireable /
possible) or unknown odds (=desireable / undesireable).
> Blind yourself and test it out. If you're going to take something
> long-term, it's important to know whether it's placebo or not. If it
> is placebo, then you can minimize your costs by mixing in cheap
> regular placebos among the 'real' placebos and save yourself money.
> (The bad thing about cognitive biases is that they are exploitable;
> the good thing about cognitive biases is that they are exploitable. I
> wrote a nifty comment recently on something similar with fine wines:http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3174950)
beings are beholden to such errors as confirmation bias, but the (good
and bad) effects I perceive under the influence of this drug are quite
simply unmistakeable (like alcohol and caffeine are), skipping over
whether or not it is 99.9% Modafinil or something else. Then again, I
seriously doubt this will be a long-term thing.
In recent effects, I see that it doesn't allow one to learn
information more rapidly and so far seems to impede mathematical
thought quite a bit (I like to shift gears a lot, and modafinil keeps
me stuck on overdrive), so I don't think I'll be re-ordering it any
time soon. I think I can only use it sparingly.
argumzio
γενβιρΟ
On Nov 2, 3:34 am, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2011/10/31 γενβιρΟ <carsthatdr...@hotmail.com>:
> > What is your _opinion_ about the relationship between modafinil and
> > creativity, especially when it relates to divergent thinking (a
> > component of such)?
>
> I don't know of any research addressing it. Modafinil works in an
> entirely different way than the amphetamines and most stimulants, so
> they aren't relevant. My own anecdotal experience with Adderall
> blind-testing was that repetitive uncreative writing was a good clue
> as to whether I had taken placebo or Adderall, while on modafinil, my
> writing seems normal or better than usual.
>
> > I think i recently read
> > someting about this regarding botox injections, wherein a plastic
> > surgeon ordered some of his supplies from an online retailer, and the
> > patients he used it on were in the ICU for days with chronic health
> > problems to follow
>
> Poisons *are* kind of dangerous to begin with...
>
> > Interestingly, I see this note at gwern's website (posted after I
> > bought it): "the spierx modafinil that Edandmore sells is fake but the
> > sun pharma modafinil that edandmore sells is real."
>
> > If so, then I wonder what exactly it is I've experienced thus far?
> > Hmm... Now I wonder what the "real" stuff is. Well, I'll try them
> > next.
>
> I dunno what's up with SpierX. My working theory is that it's simply
> low quality modafinil. Sun* is a real pharmacorp, while SpierX is...
> something. Speaking of Sun, I recently ordered some of their
> 'Waklert', which is armodafinil (generic for Nuvigil), although I
> still don't understand how Sun is allowed to manufacture it given the
> patent situation.
>
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 12:24 AM, whoisbambam <a...@horseracingfirm.com> wrote:
>
> > i would try to cross-reference your choices from qwerns list with
> > is 'questionable' according to some reviews. personally, i have no
> > idea.
>
> The goal is more completeness than quality, since it's so hard to gauge quality.
>
> > i thought jonathan once mentioned thepharmacyexpress.com but i could
> > be mistaken.
>
> IIRC, he ordered from edandmore, canceled it once he noticed my little
> warning about it; he apparently usually ordered from
> thepharmacyexpress.com.
>
Aman Idle
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Jonathan Toomim
tested it out, and found it wanting. SpierX's "modafinil" did not taste
like modafinil, did not make him feel like modafinil makes him feel, did
not change his sleep patterns the way that modafinil does, and did not
make his urine smell the way modafinil does, even when he tried a
quadruple dose. Fortunately, edandmore accepted the return of the
product and refunded all of his money except what he paid for shipping
and for what he consumed. This friend has had consistent success with
the modalert from thepharmacyexpress dot com.
Indian patent laws work differently for pharmaceuticals from most
countries'. In India, you can patent processes for manufacturing
pharmaceuticals, but you can not patent the pharmaceutical itself, nor
their uses. Moreover, the process patents last only 5 to 7 years. As a
result, the generic pharma manufacturing industry in India is huge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_industry_in_India
☉
line with what is regarded as side effects of modafinil consumption:
1) Extreme focus, even during typically boring tasks
2) Decided lack of psycho-physical fatigue*
3) Peculiar smell of urine
4) Slight nausea and lessened appetite
5) Irregular occurrence of headaches
* I could stay up well past the period at which I would get tired and
not feel tired at all (like staying up until 5AM and still reading on
my topics of interest). This even had the unfortunate effect of my
having to stay up two whole days, after which I had to conduct myself
more carefully in taking the 200mg dose (in the morning worked fairly
well) - and remember that even if I didn't feel tired, I should still
be mindful of my schedule.
All that said, I'm perfectly willing to pay a little more for non-
SpierX sources for the sake of comparison. Maybe I got lucky; one can
never tell with unknown unknowns.
argumzio
☉
a) heightened sexual performance (not to say I was entirely wanting in
that area)
b) increased attention to details that I'd tend to miss
c) improved capability in making a sequential and coherent argument in
writing (I aced a philosophy test while on it, despite (as I typically
do) not having studied or read any of the required readings, and had a
difficult time stopping writing rather than "getting on with it")
d) greater motivation for the more tedious aspects involved in
learning new material (I tend to overlook the steps or sequences
involved in detailed analysis, because it typically isn't what I'm
altogether concerned with)*
* However, it did not help me *learn* the material, but made being
attentive to it decidedly easier and effortless.
I should note, as I have elsewhere, that these effects, associated
with increased WM, do indeed seem analogous to the immediate effects I
perceived post-QNB-training. However, modafinil at 200mg was assuredly
*far more* intense than I would have anticipated it to be beforehand.
I'd definitely like to get my hands on more of it to experiment
further. 30 pills weren't enough, I'm afraid.
argumzio
whoisbambam
secured shut--u can just open it right up, no tape.
if u have a legal prescription for tretinoin 0.5% for stretch marks
cause u lost 60lbs in less than 4months, and it's cheaper this way,
that is one thing, as it isnt a scheduled drug like a narcotic.
modafinil is schedule 4 i think, so when the USPS easily opens this
untaped package, it could put one in a precarious situation, esp. for
those states east of the mississippi, and southward in particular
(kentucky, florida, etc)
different postal inspectors have different 'attitudes' toward this
stuff.
if i were to order modafinil, i would prefer a sealed package even if
that is no guarantee it wont be inspected anyway.
Aman Idle
the 'problem' with thepharmacyexpress IMO is that the package isnt
secured shut--u can just open it right up, no tape.
if u have a legal prescription for tretinoin 0.5% for stretch marks
cause u lost 60lbs in less than 4months, and it's cheaper this way,
that is one thing, as it isnt a scheduled drug like a narcotic.
modafinil is schedule 4 i think, so when the USPS easily opens this
untaped package, it could put one in a precarious situation, esp. for
those states east of the mississippi, and southward in particular
(kentucky, florida, etc).