Hello Inprise it's seems someone has noticed that you're not listening
Adam Roslon
Hi--
I'm a reporter from LAN Times looking into some complaints from our readers
about Inprise's recent release of Delphi 4.0. I noticed some comments of
yours in the non-technical newsgroup and wondered if you might want to
comment on the company's recent moves. When Borland became Inprise and the
company announced their intention to "go after the enterprise," I did a
story about them needing to take extra special care of that loyal base of
Borland followers (barbarians!). Now, it looks like they've made some
missteps. Can you elaborate on some of the bugs in D4 and the problems with
tech support you've been having?
Feel free to e-mail or call--p...@lantimes.com or 650-513-6831.
Thanks,
Polly Sprenger
Associate Editor
Databases/App Development
LAN Times
Wayne Herbert
Adam Roslon wrote:
--
Wayne Herbert
Manager, Computer Products
Key Maps, Inc.
1411 West Alabama
Houston, TX 77006
Vox: 713.522.7949
Fax: 713.521.3202
Email: wher...@keymaps.com
Vyizder mororsiz assesden derizorsiz?
Roger Arnesen
Holy cow. Inprise should be glad I don't use my real emal address here
then......
Roger
Wayne Herbert wrote in message <35E1D50F...@keymaps.com>...
Material Fellow
One of my earlier serious suggestions was to not RUN, but to buy some
books on customer service.... how to keep your customers coming back
with a smile.
One of my favorite books, but not the best is "A Complaint is a Gift"
Books on word of mouth marketing remark on how powerful are the negative
remarks of credible customers.
They also go on to say that even more powerful are the negative remarks
of employees, and ex-employees.
With the phone setup you used to have there, the press would likely be
screened out from contacting employees at work.
However, there are lots of ways to still contact the employee, should
someone expect a juicy quote. I have some books and other educational
materials on how to do this. But a fair amount of it is on the web
anyway.
Since I do NOT have Delphi4, I have no first hand comments of negative
value for the current release.
I really want the firm to survive this and other storms.
My remarks, believe it or not, are directed to that end.
Thanks for [ check one ]
( ) listening ( ) not listening
Jim Buch
Peter N Roth
Suppose it was phrased like this...
>Hi--
>
I'm Bill Gates, you may have heard of me. I don't usually get involved at
this level,
but I
>noticed some comments of
>yours in the non-technical newsgroup and wondered if you might want to
>comment on the company's recent moves. etc.
Not that I've spoofed anyone's email address or anything...
--
Grace + Peace | Peter N Roth | Engineering Objects Int'l
ClassBuilder 5 for Delphi 4, now shipping
http://www.inconresearch.com/eoi
Peter N Roth
[ ]
>Thanks for [ check one ]
>
>( ) listening ( ) not listening (x) obeying
Your name lends itself to recommending texts...
What do you recommend as better than a Complaint = Gift ?
Mike Niemann
>This is an email I received this afternoon
I got it as well.
Regards, Mike
Wayne Niddery
(I will probably be labelled a TApologist for this, but it won't be the
first time and I don't care <g>).
Polly,
Since you are canvassing for comments from Delphi customers in the Inprise
newsgroups, I would like to respond:
First, I am one of your "barbarians" - I'm a self-employed contractor /
consultant trying to make a living. I've used Delphi since its inception
(I'm a co-author of an early Delphi book - The Delphi How-To) and previously
used Delphi's ancestor Pascal products for many years.
In your query to newsgroup members (quoted below) you ask two distinct
questions, one is about Inprise's recent corporate moves and one is
specifically about the latest Delphi release. You will, of course, receive
many different opinions on these questions, these are mine.
There has been a huge amount of discussion about the change in direction
that Inprise has taken and many customers have expressed a fear this change
will leave them without support - that Inprise will no longer care about the
'little" developers. I consider such fears to be without basis and
contradictory to the evidence. That isn't to say such fears should simply be
dismissed, that would be a mistake. It's important that Inprise try to
address those fears and, in fact, they have tried to do just that - most
recently at the Development Conference in Denver (a transcript of Del
Yokam's keynote is available at Inprise's web site and is worth reading in
this regard).
Borland has followed a very common progression over the last few years in
making a corporate recovery. First they identified where their strengths lay
(development tools), refocused their efforts there and found ways to divest
themselves of liabilities - areas where they could not profitably compete.
They then worked hard to re-establish themselves as a leader in those areas
by getting several new products out the door. Finally, they evaluated their
position in the marketplace and the industry and identified areas they could
fill that would take advantage of their existing products and expertise and
allow new growth. It is this last step that seems to be at issue.
It's possible they could survive by remaining the "simple" tools-developer
they've always been, but that is a limited market and would guarantee they
always stayed small and, as far as corporations were concerned, practically
invisible. Contrary to what some seem to believe, this course of action
would not serve "little guys" like me at all. There is no way I would be
able to continue to make an independent living using their tools if they did
not address the needs and concerns of my potential customers.
If there was to be new growth then there had to be a new direction. This
simple statement is not even arguable. The choice to pursue corporate and
enterprise-level markets is not arguable either, we're at the beginning of a
huge growth in this area and Inprise has put themselves into a great
position to grow along with it. By growing in this direction, they are
providing the best chance possible that I will be able to continue using
their tools for my work and allows me to grow my business (i.e. get more
high-level and lucrative contracts) using those same tools.
Inprise has tried to make it clear in both words and actions that their new
corporate direction is made possible by having a base of "Borland brand"
tools to offer those corporations and therefore continued development of
those tools is crucial to their continuing success. They have stated they
will continue to produce different versions of the tools to cater to
different levels of developers and they have backed these statements with
action such as retaining the name Borland for the tools themselves and
spinning off their retail marketing division into a separate entity that can
better manage the retail distribution of those tools (and I can vouch that
availability of the standard versions of their products in local stores is
much more obvious and steady than it has EVER been before). This tells me
they ARE trying to retain the confidence and patronage of all classes of
developers.
Now on to Delphi 4.
There have been many reports of various problems with this release - far
more than with previous releases, but it's important to keep in mind that
the majority of the problems concern the development environment (IDE)
rather than the compiler or any products produced with the tool. It's
certainly true that these IDE bugs are annoying as hell and do effect one's
productivity and enjoyment in using the tool, but they are not
show-stoppers. There were also some bugs in various components, a couple of
them quite serious, but these typically have workarounds. Although it can
rightly be claimed that this is the least solid release thus far, It's also
important to give credit to Inprise for very quickly releasing a
downloadable update that does correct a great many of these bugs, and I
fully expect another update soon that will address most of what's left. It's
a safe bet Inprise isn't enjoying the negative publicity for this and will
endeavour to make amends in future releases.
As far as the compiler itself and the executables produced, it seems to be
at least as solid, if not even more so, than any previous release (all of
which have been extremely solid). In this regard, there is simply NOTHING
stopping one from using Delphi 4 for production work.
--
Wayne Niddery - WinWright Consulting
Host of RADBooks at http://home.ican.net/~wniddery/RADBooks.html
Delphi, C++Builder, JBuilder, InterDev -- Amazon.com Associate
>I'm a reporter from LAN Times looking into some complaints from our readers
>about Inprise's recent release of Delphi 4.0. I noticed some comments of
>yours in the non-technical newsgroup and wondered if you might want to
Philippe Ranger
address those fears and, in fact, they have tried to do just that - most
recently at the Development Conference in Denver (a transcript of Del
Yokam's keynote is available at Inprise's web site and is worth reading in
this regard).<<
Talk about damning with faint praise!
Del's nice words to the people in Denver "address" nothing at all, and
especially not the fears of the 99% of small dev's not in Denver. At best —
at best — they recognize them. Show me a serious price cut. Show me an
up-to-date and responsive bug list. (I.e., show me some recognition that the
alternative is MS.) Then we may talk of "addressing". As things stand, the
fears have been... mentioned in public.
PhR
Roger Arnesen
That only scares us if you assume we all have the conviction that Bill Gates
is the Devil Incarnate.
I for one do not believe he is, so it doesn't really raise my hairs.
I would not answer any mail from LAN Times, because it would do me, as an
Inprise customer, no good, only harm in terms of possible reduced sales of
Delphi.
However, if Bill Gates had asked me, I would have told him, because he would
be in a position to make my life better by acting upon my whishes and
supplying me with a tool I woul prefer over Delphi.
Because, lets face it, unless you are into Delphi for religious reasons, you
would welcome any advance over Delphi, because it would make your life
better.
Roger
Peter N Roth wrote in message <6rsmab$f0...@forums.borland.com>...
>Suppose it was phrased like this...
>
>>Hi--
>>
>I'm Bill Gates, you may have heard of me. I don't usually get involved at
>this level,
>but I
>>noticed some comments of
>>yours in the non-technical newsgroup and wondered if you might want to
>>comment on the company's recent moves. etc.
Adam Roslon
> Inprise customer, no good, only harm in terms of possible reduced sales
of
> Delphi.
Yes I didn't even think about it. But I really think that Inprise should
>
> However, if Bill Gates had asked me, I would have told him, because he
would
> be in a position to make my life better by acting upon my whishes and
> supplying me with a tool I woul prefer over Delphi.
>
I don't know about a better product ... but definitely a better marketing
campaign than On Time On Budget On Delphi Jump !!!
InstallShield Software Corp.
>yours in the non-technical newsgroup and wondered if you might want to
Thank goodness I haven't been contacted yet :)
Stefan
InstallShield Software Corp.
Robert Meek
decisions. If everyone responded to common problems based upon such a
philosophy, we'd all be in a lot more trouble then we are! Sacrifice is the
means to many a goal.
Myself, ( and no, I didn't receive a questionnaire ), I would answer in
a constructively optimistic way that would hopefully scare Billy into making
better products, and inprose into waking up. Not answering is worse then
anything except condemning.
Roger Arnesen wrote in message <6rsvj6$f0...@forums.borland.com>...
>
>
>That only scares us if you assume we all have the conviction that Bill
Gates
>is the Devil Incarnate.
>
>I for one do not believe he is, so it doesn't really raise my hairs.
>
>I would not answer any mail from LAN Times, because it would do me, as an
>Inprise customer, no good, only harm in terms of possible reduced sales of
>Delphi.
>
>However, if Bill Gates had asked me, I would have told him, because he
would
>be in a position to make my life better by acting upon my whishes and
>supplying me with a tool I woul prefer over Delphi.
>
>Because, lets face it, unless you are into Delphi for religious reasons,
you
>would welcome any advance over Delphi, because it would make your life
>better.
>
>Roger
>
>Peter N Roth wrote in message <6rsmab$f0...@forums.borland.com>...
>>Suppose it was phrased like this...
>>
>>>Hi--
>>>
>>I'm Bill Gates, you may have heard of me. I don't usually get involved at
>>this level,
>>but I
>>>noticed some comments of
>>>yours in the non-technical newsgroup and wondered if you might want to
Robert Meek
you do that before I gave it? <g>
Wayne Niddery wrote in message <6rt8h0$fs...@forums.borland.com>...
Robert Meek
self-defeating to say it that way!
Philippe Ranger <.> wrote in message <6rtch6$ft...@forums.borland.com>...
>Wayne: >>It's important that Inprise try to
>address those fears and, in fact, they have tried to do just that - most
>recently at the Development Conference in Denver (a transcript of Del
>Yokam's keynote is available at Inprise's web site and is worth reading in
>this regard).<<
>
Roger Arnesen
Sure, but I never considered my Delphi usage of such importance as to
warrant a personal sacrifice.
Roger
Frank Cowan
<winXw...@Xshaw.wave.ca> wrote:
>I have sent the following reply to Polly at LAN Times:
>
>(I will probably be labelled a TApologist for this, but it won't be the
Excellent! Thankyou for saying it better than I could have.
Just call me another TApologist!
Frank Cowan, Delphian
http://signaldata.com
See you at ICon 99 in Phila-Delphi-a !
Wayne Herbert
> I would not answer any mail from LAN Times, because it would do me, as an
> Inprise customer, no good, only harm in terms of possible reduced sales of
> Delphi.
I definitely responded, and I hope many others do as well. I'm thoroughly
unconvinced that the DelPrise gang has had any sort of attitude shift towards
its small developers vis-a-vis support, handling of complaints, quality of
products, timeliness of response, etc.
This pending article can do the small developer good, as it _may_ cause Inprise
to rethink its strategy to the small guy. But, I aint holdin' my breath.
Jeff D. Fisher
We are most likely in the minority here, but I fully agree with you.
Hey, we can agree on something!
--
je...@rapfire.net
http://www.rapfire.net/~jeff
Wayne Herbert
> It's important that Inprise try to address those fears and, in fact, they have
> tried to do just that - most recently at the Development Conference in Denver
> (a transcript of Del
> Yokam's keynote is available at Inprise's web site and is worth reading in
> this regard).
Talk is cheap, and while Del talks a lot, I see not _one_whit_of_difference, no
concrete changes. What is this... the promulagation of the big lie?.... if you
say it often enough, maybe everyone will believe it?
Mark Richter
you have offered a very rational argument about Inprise new direction
and its impact on all developers.
Very well said.
I do, however, hope to see improvements in the developer feedback areas
as part of the actions to support the rhetoric.
One additional request I have made of the developers of Delphi. That
future releases of the product maintain source level backward
compatibility by not introducing new capabilities to existing objects
and data types which make future projects incompatible with older ones.
Delphi 4 is an exciting tool with many capabilities.
--
Mark Richter
eMCee Software
Wayne Herbert
> One additional request I have made of the developers of Delphi. That
> future releases of the product maintain source level backward
> compatibility by not introducing new capabilities to existing objects and
> data types which make future projects incompatible with older ones.
Actually, I'd like to see this idea taken one step farther. I'd like to
see support continue for previous versions until some predetermined time,
perhaps 3 to 5 years. I don't want to migrate to D4, I want support for my
D3 apps and bugs. Why should it take a new version to fix bugs?
In the automobile business, the introduction of a new model does not mean
that you cannot get parts and support for your older model, but software
developers cannot seem to understand this.
Roger Arnesen
Inprise
>to rethink its strategy to the small guy. But, I aint holdin' my breath.
Well, lets put it this way.
If they are not getting the message clear enough through this forum, they
certainly will not get it elsewhere.
Roger
G. Bradley MacDonald
Very nicely put. A calm, reasonable reply.
However, after such a calm and logical reply - how can you ever again
hold your head up and reply to posts from folks such as the Material
Fellow? <g>
Bradley
Philippe Ranger
_one_whit_of_difference, no
concrete changes. What is this... the promulagation of the big lie?.... if
you
say it often enough, maybe everyone will believe it?<<
Talk is cheap, and million-plus suits really lay it out for the money. This
is like saying the sun rises in the east. No Big Lie involved.
PhR
Philippe Ranger
like to
see support continue for previous versions until some predetermined time,
perhaps 3 to 5 years. I don't want to migrate to D4, I want support for my
D3 apps and bugs. Why should it take a new version to fix bugs?<<
Loud applause.
PhR
Rick Rogers (TeamB)
<wher...@keymaps.com> wrote:
> no concrete changes
From one of my previous posts, a decent list of recent concrete
changes:
-- "We need an update to D4 quickly, and it should be freely
downloaded from the Internet". Done, as of today.
-- "We need a public Inprise-maintained bug list." Done. (Eventually)
posted a preliminary bug list on the website and promised to improve
it.
-- "We need some client/server features unbundled (available for sale
separately) so that Pro users can purchase only the functionality they
need". Done. Webbroker now sold separately. Perhaps the model will be
extended to other features currently only in C/S.
-- "We need more Inprise presence in the newsgroups." Done. More
Inprise employees have been responding to threads in the last few
months.
-- "We need better confirmation on our submitted bugs, so we don't
feel like our input is disappearing into a black hole." Done. Inprise
has recently been responding in a timely (a few business days) to
anyone who submits bugs.
-- "The bug response message which covers the case when Inprise can't
replicate the bug seems harsh and somewhat rude." Done. The message
was changed to a nicer version in two business days.
-- "The bug reporting website doesn't have a way to specify D4 as a
product." Done. The item was changed in two business days.
-- "We need an architecture which supports independence from the BDE".
Done. Rewrote the entire DB class hierarchy in the D3 VCL so that
other non-BDE database engines can plug right into the DB component
system without using the BDE at all.
-- "We need better online help files, with more examples." Done.
Focused an enormous amount of resources on improving the D4 help
files.
-- "The Technical Information (TI) documents on the Inprise website
need to be updated and expanded." Done. Inprise updated the TIs and
added an extensive list of Question & Answer documents.
-- "Pro developers need Internet components." Done. Internet
components, which originally were not available in the D3 Pro edition,
are made available to Pro developers in D3.01 and D4.
-- "We need higher quality, preferably Object Pascal-based Internet
components." Done. Included better quality OP Internet components in
D4.
...and perhaps most importantly...
-- "We need to be assured our comments and suggestions are at least
heard within Inprise." Done. Ben has stated repeatedly that he makes a
report on the hot topics each week, and routes this report through
Inprise.
--
Rick Rogers (TeamB) | Fenestra Technologies
http://www.fenestra.com/
Material Fellow
>
> Material Fellow wrote in message <35E1DC...@pacbell.net>...
> [ ]
> >Thanks for [ check one ]
> >
> >( ) listening ( ) not listening (x) obeying
>
> Your name lends itself to recommending texts...
> What do you recommend as better than a Complaint = Gift ?
>
Hi Peter --
What I had in mind at the time was J R Wilson's book "Word of Mouth
Marketing" for the about 80 pages he devotes to :
Ch6 Stop the Horror Talk, Defusing Angry Customers
Ch7 How to Install a No Hassle Program
Ch8 Nobody Talks about "Good" Service
Ch9 Seek Those Invaluable Complaints
ch10 Word of Mouth Marketing Begins With Motivating Your People
Ch11 Boss Behavior that Converts Word Of Mouth Marketing Strategies into
Action
Other chapters relevant to Inprise situation are
Ch2 What are your customers saying about you
Ch4 The care and feeding of Champions
The worst thing that you can do for your business is to get a great
marketing effort going, and deliver lousy service or products.
Seemingly go out of the way to unnecessarily disappoint customers, such
as without warning to have no documentation in the BIG Delphi Pro box -
this is another way to kill your customer relations.
Then, not to have a plan to confront the mess when it turns into a
stink... The best thing to do is avoid the mess of surprise in the
first place .. the next best thing is to have read the chapter on how to
deal with angry customers... which is to have a several step plan to
turn the anger into loyalty.
The book explains this in nice simple language, with diagrams here and
there and I get sold on diagrams over dense text.
Peter N Roth
>What I had in mind at the time was J R Wilson's book "Word of Mouth
>Marketing" for the about 80 pages he devotes to :
Thanks ~ I'll see if I can find it.
>The book explains this in nice simple language, with diagrams here and
>there and I get sold on diagrams over dense text.
exercising both lobes...
--
Grace + Peace | Peter N Roth | Engineering Objects Int'l
Books on: Delphi, C++, Math, Engineering, Consulting, Life
http://www.inconresearch.com/eoi/on03000.htm
Rea Berryman
Excellent list!!!
How 'bout sending it to LAN times. You can also add:
-- "We need Quick Reports fixed". Today, in the reports forum, an Inprise
representative is soliciting for Quick Reports beta testers.
See-ya,
Rea
Richard Bayarri Bartual
>
> Roger Arnesen wrote:
>
> > I would not answer any mail from LAN Times, because it would do me, as an
> > Inprise customer, no good, only harm in terms of possible reduced sales of
> > Delphi.
>
> I definitely responded, and I hope many others do as well. I'm thoroughly
> unconvinced that the DelPrise gang has had any sort of attitude shift towards
> its small developers vis-a-vis support, handling of complaints, quality of
> products, timeliness of response, etc.
>
> to rethink its strategy to the small guy. But, I aint holdin' my breath.
>
I replied too. Although I went to great pains to indicate that
my observations were purely personal ones which only pertain
to my own current evaluation of Inprise's direction and
therefore the perceived compatibility of its products with
my company's needs, the tone of the missive reflected the
fact that Delphi is not going in a direction which is
particularly useful to me.
Rick Rogers (TeamB)
<rber...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> How 'bout sending it to LAN times.
Good idea, I considered responding to the reporter, but it seems like
she is merely trolling for complaints which will prove her previous
article "correct". Here's a quote from her e-mail solicitation:
"When Borland became Inprise and the company announced their intention
to 'go after the enterprise,' I did a story about them needing to take
extra special care of that loyal base of Borland followers
(barbarians!). Now, it looks like they've made some missteps."
It is quite obvious that she isn't interested reporting a story based
on letting the facts lead where they may, but is instead interested in
encouraging (and practically leading by the nose) people to complain
in a way that will prove her previous story "correct".
Whatever positive things we say won't fit into her pre-determined
"spin" on the story and won't make the article, so it seems somewhat
pointless for me to respond.
She's thrown read-meat to critical "Borland followers" by
(incorrectly) implying that Inprise considers them as "barbarians!",
and revealed her true and rather seemly underlying motive (to prove
her earlier story correct), Therefore she has lost any shred of
journalistic credibility in my eyes. From what I can tell, this is
"yellow journalism" at its worst.
Mike Orriss
wrote:
> but it seems like
> she is merely trolling for complaints which will prove her previous
> article "correct".
>
And precisely why I ignored the e-mail sent to me.
Mike Orriss (m...@3kcc.co.uk)
http://www.3kcc.co.uk/notetree.htm
Robert Meek
Ever since the movie "Modern Problems", in which Dabney Coleman used the
phrase, "vis-a-vis", I can't stand hearing or reading it! Ain't that weird?
Wayne Herbert wrote in message <35E2BDDD...@keymaps.com>...
>Roger Arnesen wrote:
>
>> I would not answer any mail from LAN Times, because it would do me, as an
>> Inprise customer, no good, only harm in terms of possible reduced sales
of
>> Delphi.
>
>I definitely responded, and I hope many others do as well. I'm thoroughly
>unconvinced that the DelPrise gang has had any sort of attitude shift
towards
>its small developers vis-a-vis support, handling of complaints, quality of
>products, timeliness of response, etc.
>
>This pending article can do the small developer good, as it _may_ cause
Inprise
>to rethink its strategy to the small guy. But, I aint holdin' my breath.
>
Robert Meek
needing tough review and practical consideration. Most of the arguments
that DO occur between users seems to be on "why", and "why", and "why"! No
matter what is said or not said, realize that only a small percentage of
actual D4 users are visible here, and unless we're all just balmy, and
suffering from secret encoded, subliminal code messages placed on the D4 CD
by Microsoft, it's very important that those who choose to be vocal
concerning the problems stay that way! It really irks me when I get blasted
for complaining...especially as I am a Delphi supporter!
The point I'm trying to make, is that the "press", in it's so-called
professional lust for bad news, will make a negative sensation out of
anything you say, or how you say it! It has become OUR responsibility to
make sure we do not inadvertently add to this kind of "undermining" by
reviewing our intentions and words very carefully.
A good example is a Delphi-tech book on graphics programming released
some time ago. I read SO many bad reviews of this book, all of them
concentrating on code errors and their own differences in technical methods
and opinions, that had I not already purchased it, I wouldn't have...yet
there is a lot of great information and structural examples within it I've
not found anywhere else! I believe it to be irresponsible, ( and therefore
sociopathic, <Big GRIN > ), to complain in a one-sided manner.
Jeff D. Fisher wrote in message ...
Robert Meek
We need and IDE that actually works properly so that the wonderful
abilities of D4 can be exploited without having to re-arrange, re-boot,
re-calibrate, and constantly re-examine why we're still putting up with such
a mess! Let's face it, no one is going to spend too much time praising a
company for doing late what it SHOULD have done in the first place...makes
you wonder if they would have had we not complained...like Clinton, who
believes his irresponsibility can be re-evaluated in the positive by
recalling that he did something honest a long time ago, it's all just a lot
of rhetoric!
Rick Rogers (TeamB) wrote in message
<35ef3fd3...@forums.borland.com>...
Adam Roslon
> How 'bout sending it to LAN times. You can also add:
>
> -- "We need Quick Reports fixed". Today, in the reports forum, an Inprise
> representative is soliciting for Quick Reports beta testers.
I love Delphi as far as I'm concerned LAN times could go F#!@ Off.
But you have to Admit it took Inprise a while to respond to the alarm clock
and wake up.
All this is strictly a result to a lack of communication of Inprise's part.
This negative press could have been avoided, If Inprise responded by
saying, yes there are some concerns and we are working on them. We will
keep you informed on a regular basis since we realize that your livelihood
relies on our products.
But instead the response directly from Inprise has been very underwhelming
to say the least.
Inprise should take a look at TurboPowers NG's for a real example of
Customer support is all about.
Rick Rogers (TeamB)
> If Inprise responded by saying, yes there are some concerns and
> we are working on them
I believe they have done this, in the form of many messages from Ben
here, and from the top brass on the Inprise web page.
Here's an example, from the CEO's address at the Inprise developers
convention, available at http://www.inprise.com/icon98/delspeech/:
"What I want you to understand is that I am totally committed to the
roots on which Borland and Visigenic were founded.
Our focus on the enterprise would not be possible without our focus on
developers. As you'll learn tonight and through the week , development
tools are critical to our success as a company. It is the development
tools segment of our business that truly makes us unique in the
Enterprise arena. No other company offers the combination of
development tools and integrated scalable middleware that Inprise has
today."
Adam Roslon
> I believe they have done this, in the form of many messages from Ben
> here, and from the top brass on the Inprise web page.
Rick, Come on now do you really call this responsive. After reading this
message I stopped and thought about it for a minute and I can't think of
any other company I deal with is less responsive. I mean for a software
company I would think that they would be all over these newsgroups like
other software companies. I just ran through some of the other software
and hardware companies NGs and see most of the responses from the companies
themselves
Now yes, the TeamB does an excellent job and if it wasn't for the TeamB I
would consider Inprise's internet tech support nonexistent.
As far as email goes I have yet to receive a response from Inprise on a
technical issue. For any other company this is unheard of. Inprise is
banking on loyalty.
Even companies that I buy consumer goods are easier to get technical
assistance from. Oh ya in less I want to give a credit card number to
confirm a bug.
>
> Here's an example, from the CEO's address at the Inprise developers
> convention, available at http://www.inprise.com/icon98/delspeech/:
>
Speeches are nice to listen to, but I'm not big on politics and propaganda.
Actions are what interest me.
Rick Rogers (TeamB)
> Come on now do you really call this responsive
I do, but obviously you disagree, and I respect your opinion.
Adam Roslon
I feel your presence along with the rest of the TeamB are indispensable to
Inprise.
Rick Rogers (TeamB)
> I didn't mean to be disrespectful.
Oh, no, I didn't think you were. Reasonable people should be able to
disagree reasonably... <g>
> I feel your presence along with the rest of the TeamB are
> indispensable to Inprise.
Thanks, I really enjoy participating in these newsgroups, and learn a
lot from them as well.
Rick Rogers (TeamB)
<r...@visual-limes.com> wrote:
> If we fail to respond
Actually, I changed my mind for many of the reasons you cited, and
sent LAN Times a lengthy (and personal) response.
Adam Roslon
> sent LAN Times a lengthy (and personal) response.
I think I will respond to .....
I program for a living
And I use Delphi 4 !!!
No, not because I have this great sense of devotion to Inprise formally
Borland
Simply because it the best development for Windows period. !!!!
Bob Arnson
>It is quite obvious that she isn't interested reporting a story based
>on letting the facts lead where they may, but is instead interested in
>encouraging (and practically leading by the nose) people to complain
>in a way that will prove her previous story "correct".
>
>Whatever positive things we say won't fit into her pre-determined
>"spin" on the story and won't make the article, so it seems somewhat
>pointless for me to respond.
As an ex-magazine editor, I can't let that slide by.<g> What you suggest
might be the case, but nothing in her e-mail guarantees it. She could have
mentioned her previous article simply to establish her "credentials" as
someone who's covered Inprise before and is familiar with its history.
I could take more issue with her spamming people, but even in that, she
didn't target just critics.
sig://boB
http://bobs.org
Cate Dufour
immediately upon first app discovered a bug. I called technical support
to query about where bug fixes, etc. could be obtained (that was when
inprise was changing names and server addresses, I had trouble finding
some stuff). I was told to hand over a credit card to get the
information. And all I wanted to do was help myself!
So I cussed and kicked my PC and threw the Delphi CD in the trash,
deciding that a company that can't even give out locations of bug fixes
and workarounds was not worth the frustration and just assumed that the
developer's haven, Borland, was gone. At least MS supports you...
Then I found the newsgroups. TeamB as other posters made me dig the CD
out of the trash and turn to Delphi as my #1 tool. You guys *are*
invaluable, and without the newsgroups I would spend days wandering
through the 4500 pages of manuals I have here...
Thanks a bunch! You guys have saved my arse many times. (As for Inprise
tech support, don't get me started...)
Cate Dufour, MCT
Rick Rogers (TeamB) wrote:
> On 26 Aug 1998 21:16:59 GMT, "Adam Roslon" <ros...@iconn.net> wrote:
>
> > I didn't mean to be disrespectful.
>
> Oh, no, I didn't think you were. Reasonable people should be able to
> disagree reasonably... <g>
>
> > I feel your presence along with the rest of the TeamB are
> > indispensable to Inprise.
>
> Thanks, I really enjoy participating in these newsgroups, and learn a
> lot from them as well.
>
Robert Meek
is "rhetoric"!
Rick Rogers (TeamB) wrote in message
<35e47764...@forums.borland.com>...
>On 26 Aug 1998 20:44:57 GMT, "Adam Roslon" <ros...@iconn.net> wrote:
>
>> Come on now do you really call this responsive
>
>I do, but obviously you disagree, and I respect your opinion.
>
Robert Meek
Inprise realizes the work being done on their behalf.
Speaking of which...did anyone see the article in PC Week regarding how
Linux is so "open" and dependent upon it's users for it's constant
betterment? That would work fine for Delphi if the full source were
available, but as it's not, Inprise must learn to be more responsive and
less political.
Adam Roslon wrote in message <01bdd202$79c9fc90$b580abcf@rosloncontrols>...
>Rick I didn't mean to be disrespectful.
Philippe Ranger
Rick: >>I do, but obviously you disagree, and I respect your opinion.<<
Rick, the question isn't whether to you the contents of your message show
that Inprise is responsive. The question is whether they show that to people
who've hung around here for more than twenty messages (i.e. 15 minutes) and
who don't feel Inprise is responsive.
All I can say is that, not for the first time, when I read your defense I
wished you hadn't posted it. Your listings of things done didn't amount to a
giant leap in responsiveness, but at least they were a small step. Whereas
your response to Adam gave the impression that, if Inprise has to be
defended on that point with those arguments, well, the point is won for the
opposition.
One easy rule at least: Quotes from Del count negative. There just are the
heavily negative ones (great that desktop sales are down) and the mildly
negative ones (we'll blow you some hot air, here, have some). One thing
Pizza Man thoroughly fails at is communicating with individual Delphi users
in public.
He ain't the only one in the industry with the problem. I don't care much,
it's not what we should expect from him. (Philippe was a nice communicator
and an awful strategist.) Just don't broadcast the bromides, please?
PhR
Philippe Ranger
sent LAN Times a lengthy (and personal) response.<<
To Richard's wise comments I'd add this — make sure, that is, S-U-R-E, that
points of fact are clearly (C-L...) stated, separate, with bullets, for the
average high school junior. The more of that you do, the more will go into
the resulting article(s) almost unchanged. Try to deliver the least opinion
possible, and perhaps make it rather dull.
PhR
Richard Bayarri Bartual
>
> In article <35e37f1c...@forums.borland.com>, Rick Rogers (TeamB)
> wrote:
> > but it seems like
> > she is merely trolling for complaints which will prove her previous
> > article "correct".
> >
>
> And precisely why I ignored the e-mail sent to me.
>
I used to edit a magazine). If we fail to respond, the
journalist will trawl around these newsgroups taking bits
from posts which are more often than not completely
nonsensical to anybody who hasn't been following the
main thread. Bits of sarcasm by ardent TApologists
can look like garing indictments of Delphi or Inprise
if taken as stand-alone posts instead of as a tiny part
of a long conversation between several people; Journalists
are pretty fond of quoting people out of context anyway,
and forums provide ample opportunity for this. One is
therefore usually better off responding with a summary
of one's opinions (positive or negative) which can
later be sent "as is" to Lan Times' editor if you feel
that what was said in your name was not representative
of the tone of your response.
Believe me, journals like Lan Times which aim at a mainly
professional audience are _very_ sensitive about bad publicity,
and its editor would not welcome large numbers of letters from
web-page owners saying that they are annoyed enough to recommend
to those who visit their sites that they avoid Lan Times like
the plague because it published biased articles which grossly
misrepresent the opinions of those who were interviewed!
Mike Orriss
wrote:
> Actually Mike, I have a different attitude (maybe because
> I used to edit a magazine). If we fail to respond, the
> journalist will trawl around these newsgroups taking bits
> from posts which are more often than not completely
> nonsensical to anybody who hasn't been following the
> main thread.
>
I received an e-mail that changed my mind, and I have already replied
to the journalist.
Richard Bayarri Bartual
> I received an e-mail that changed my mind, and I have already replied
> to the journalist.
>
I was personally quite pleased that the journalist in question
bothered to solicit personal responses from people who by their
posts on this NG obviously have widely differening viewpoints on
the validity of the current Inprise direction, how good/bad/
indifferent D4 is, whether the service is acceptable, etc. This
is a good sign that she's at least trying to be objective,
because (as we all know!) not all journalists bother to do
this level of research for a magazine article. This is not
of course any guarantee that the usual journalistic tricks of
selective editing to support the author's own opinions won't
be used, but we've at least got our own copies of the replies
to use as ammo if any of us feel that our comments were
contextually distorted.
Philippe Ranger
CD
out of the trash and turn to Delphi as my #1 tool. You guys *are*
invaluable, and without the newsgroups I would spend days wandering
through the 4500 pages of manuals I have here...
Thanks a bunch! You guys have saved my arse many times. (As for Inprise
tech support, don't get me started...)<<
HOORAY!! HOORAY!!!
And the TeamB party is just coming now! Hope they have piles of burnt crow
for certain well-paid execs, and poached salmon with hollandaise sauce for
the unpaid useful people.
Hope said execs are forced to copy your whole message by hand, endlessly,
until they either turn over their year's paychecks and resign, or put in
TeamB-like unpaid hours fixing up a half-human tech support.
Del, DavidI and Co.: Are you sure Tech Support is a profit center?
PhR
Hector Santos
On Aug 26, 1998 10:37pm, RICHARD BAYARRI BARTUAL wrote to MIKE ORRISS:
RBB> Mike Orriss wrote:
>> I received an e-mail that changed my mind, and I have already replied
>> to the journalist.
RBB> Mike, Rick, and Adam: I'm glad you have or are going to respond.
RBB> I was personally quite pleased that the journalist in question
RBB> bothered to solicit personal responses from people who by their
RBB> posts on this NG obviously have widely differening viewpoints on
RBB> the validity of the current Inprise direction, how good/bad/
RBB> indifferent D4 is, whether the service is acceptable, etc. This
RBB> is a good sign that she's at least trying to be objective,
I had a short comment to say to her:
Polly,
Look it at this way. I have been using Borland Pascal tools since
1984, nearly 14 years. For what its worth, the buck stops with
Delphi 3.0x. I didn't upgrade to Delphi 4.0 and I don't intend to
purchase any more products from Borland. More importantly, I don't
wish to further increase the "dependency" my company has using
Borland tools. I've lost too much money, time and confidence
in using Borland products. I've grown tired of the "constant
battles" with them and their loyal supporters. While they seem to
making new strides now, this has been always the case with Borland
with each new release only to go back to the same old patterns of
"missteps". Since my products are based on Delphi, we still requires
to use Delphi. However, we will do so by staying at the v3.02 level
to maintain current product lines. Although, it is costly strategy,
I am slowly making the transition to a more stable and reliable
foundation for the future. Unfortunately, one can only say this for
Microsoft VC++.
Sincerely,
---
Hector Santos
Disclaimer: Forward-looking statements can change at any time due to the
dynamics of the market forces.
Philippe Ranger
into LANtimes dumping on Inprise and D4, I think you found the key.
PhR
Tony Bryer
> I have been using Borland Pascal tools since
> 1984, nearly 14 years. For what its worth, the buck stops with
> Delphi 3.0x. I didn't upgrade to Delphi 4.0 and I don't intend to
> purchase any more products from Borland. More importantly, I don't
> wish to further increase the "dependency" my company has using
> Borland tools. I've lost too much money, time and confidence
> in using Borland products.
>
year. To claim that for 14 years you've been through Borland product
after product and every one is a let down suggests that either the
products are not half as bad as you make out or you are incapable of
learning from your experience. If you'd been on the MS train you might
have jumped into Quick Pascal or VBDOS and been left completely
stranded.
Borland products have made a lot of money for me, but a long while back
I wised up to the fact that if you don't desperately need the latest
technology it is always worth waiting for the .01 (mind you I bought a
Suzuki Wagon, new model last November, in April and they've just bough
out a revision with a bigger engine so even I get caught).
But I'm sticking at D3 too: 90% of my code is common to D1 and D3
builds of my products (a lot of my SOHO customers are still on Win 3.1)
so the only gain from adopting D4 would be the (allegedly) better IDE
and the bigger EXE size would be bad news if I then had to start
shipping an extra floppy with my 32-bit apps. If D4 included an updated
16-bit compiler supporting the new language extensions my money would
be on the table in no time. By the time D5 comes out I may be at a
stage where the 16-bit stuff can be frozen: I think that the Y2K thing
may lead to a lot of the older hardware finally being retired (I hope
so, having just put the phone down on a guy trying to get one of my DOS
DPMI apps to run on the office 286).
In the latest (Oct) UK Computer Shopper there is an 8-page joint review
of C++ Builder, J Builder and Delphi 4. The overall conclusions are (i)
Delphi 4: "This used to be Borland's flagship product, but Inprise just
doesn't seem to know where it is going. For the average Delphi
programmer there isn't much in the new version" ... "if you only know
Visual Basic then switching to C++ Builder will allow you to learn a
more general skill and it is just as easy and fast as Delphi"; (ii)
JBuilder, excellent but sluggish; (iii) C++ Builder: "It is the only
C++ environment that I could recommend to a Visual Basic, Java or
Delphi programmer that they could expect to make progress in without
giving over a significant portion of their life and sanity" .. "Visual
C .. is only one step removed from hand coding Windows applications in
C". If Inprise want to keep Delphi up there it seems that the marketing
people have got a bit of work to do in explaining its *benefits* (not
features).
Tony Bryer SDA UK
Mike Orriss
> None of my business, Hector, but if you aim to really get a couple of quotes
> into LANtimes dumping on Inprise and D4, I think you found the key.
>
If this journalist is as objective as I've been lead to believe, she will soon
realise what value to place on his comments.
Having made the decision to leave Delphi, perpetual destructive criticism of
this kind is extremely selfish. All his comments do now is to hurt Inprise and
endanger our futures. I wish he would just go away.
Frank Cowan
(TeamB)) wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:29:09 +0200, Richard Bayarri Bartual
><r...@visual-limes.com> wrote:
>
>> If we fail to respond
>
>Actually, I changed my mind for many of the reasons you cited, and
>sent LAN Times a lengthy (and personal) response.
>
>--
>Rick Rogers (TeamB) | Fenestra Technologies
>http://www.fenestra.com/
Thankyou Rick!
Frank Cowan, Delphian
http://signaldata.com
See you at ICon 99 in Phila-Delphi-a !
Frank Cowan
<nospa...@laughingfrog.com> wrote:
>
>Then I found the newsgroups. TeamB as other posters made me dig the CD
>out of the trash and turn to Delphi as my #1 tool. You guys *are*
>invaluable, and without the newsgroups I would spend days wandering
>through the 4500 pages of manuals I have here...
You got manuals? <g>
Material Fellow
......
> Having made the decision to leave Delphi, perpetual destructive criticism of
> this kind is extremely selfish. All his comments do now is to hurt Inprise and
> endanger our futures. I wish he would just go away.
>
You can't really expect a "hurt" customer to just go away and shut up,
do you?
If you silence all your post-purchase criticism of ALL of your
purchases, then probably you do.
Part of running a successful marketing program, to a competition
sensitive corporation is to prevent or fix up the unsatisfied customer,
because of the power of his/her negative remarks, especially if there is
product or technical expertise in the customer's skill basket.
( means fairly little guy/ company, small fish with some big ones around
- doesn't need to piss somebody off who will tell the sharks just where
to bite)
The negative remarks by an expert customer do indeed hurt not only the
company involved, but the other customers. It is the responsibility of
a responsible corporation to handle this problem, to the best of it's
abilities to avoid harm to the customers it wishes to keep.
A valid issue is "are you a customer the corporate leadership wishes to
keep? How has the corporatie leadership shown that (other than simply
saying it)?"
By the way, Del's $7,000,000 bonus would only buy 500,000 (half a
million) copies of books on customer service. Unless he got a bulk
discount, that is.
The lack of customer responsiveness or the appearance of it, in the
conventional direct sense, is worthy of debate and discussion. The
consequences to the customers is similarly worth discussion.
Jim Presley
Actually these cranks irritate us all but it seems their effect is not
too bad.
First MS shills (if they are that and I personally believe several are)
don't dissuade any real Delphi users, because there is no real
alternative to Delphi. If you want enterprise scalable applications that
work as fast as C++ and get developed in half the time, Delphi is the
only game in town. And that's that.
Second Borland reads the forums and to the extent the whiners find a
problem that really affects production of nuts and bolts commercial
applications, Borland perforce responds. So it's an early warning device
for Borland to catch substantive problems before they get critical.
The drawback is outsiders who know for beans about development could be
duped by these soreheads. Some of these grouches *must* spend more time
babbling than coding. I suspect what technical expertise they pervert is
fed to them by somebody else who actually codes - like say, a MS
corporate coder. Yep I'm cynical. But that's what it looks like to me.
Mike Orriss wrote:
>Having made the decision to leave Delphi, perpetual destructive criticism of this kind is extremely selfish. All his comments do now is to hurt Inprise and endanger our futures. I wish he would just go away.<
>
> In article <6s3jm7$ng...@forums.borland.com>, Philippe Ranger wrote:
> > None of my business, Hector, but if you aim to really get a couple of quotes
> > into LANtimes dumping on Inprise and D4, I think you found the key.
> >
>
> If this journalist is as objective as I've been lead to believe, she will soon
> realise what value to place on his comments.
>
> Having made the decision to leave Delphi, perpetual destructive criticism of
> this kind is extremely selfish. All his comments do now is to hurt Inprise and
> endanger our futures. I wish he would just go away.
>
Cate Dufour
support....
Cate
Cate Dufour
Hector Santos
On Aug 27, 1998 04:24am, "PHILIPPE RANGER" <.> wrote to HECTOR SANTOS:
PR> None of my business, Hector, but if you aim to really get a couple of
PR> quotes into LANtimes dumping on Inprise and D4, I think you found the
PR> key.
Frankly, I really don't care if she quotes me or not. My main point
was to highlight the main point:
14 year veteran of product says "No Mas".
If she has any insight into the "Bottom line" result of what happens
with customers when vendors fail to deliver, she would see this main
point says it all. It would be ludricrous to go into big details but
to simply say "I've grown tired" of the lunacy that accompanies this
product. It isn't one thing. But a constant building up over time
to makes someone get to this point.
Hector Santos
On Aug 27, 1998 11:48am, MIKE ORRISS wrote to "PHILIPPE RANGER" <.>:
>> None of my business, Hector, but if you aim to really get a couple of
>> quotes into LANtimes dumping on Inprise and D4, I think you found the
>> key.
MO> If this journalist is as objective as I've been lead to believe, she
MO> will soon realise what value to place on his comments.
You win this month's Oxymoron Award!
MO> Having made the decision to leave Delphi, perpetual destructive
MO> criticism of this kind is extremely selfish. All his comments do now
MO> is to hurt Inprise and endanger our futures. I wish he would just go
MO> away.
Sorry, if the truth hurts.
Hector Santos
On Aug 27, 1998 08:24pm, MIKE ORRISS <M...@COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote to HECTOR
SANTOS:
>> Sorry, if the truth hurts.
MO> You win this month's insincerity award!
Oh, I think I am very sincere and that is what bothers you and others
the most. Otherwise, why would you wish "I would just go away"?
Hector Santos
On Aug 27, 1998 08:10pm, ANDERS MELANDER wrote to HECTOR SANTOS:
>>Sorry, if the truth hurts.
AM> What's hurting is that you keep dumping your negative attitude
AM> on us.
Call it what you want. The truth.
Nonetheless, You don't need me to provide the negatism. I don't have a
copyright on that around here. Thats for sure. So if you want to blame
me for Borland's woes, go right ahead. It doesn't bother me one bit.
Mike Orriss
>
You win this month's insincerity award!
Mike Orriss (m...@3kcc.co.uk)
http://www.3kcc.co.uk/notetree.htm
Anders Melander
What's hurting is that you keep dumping your negative attitude on us.
Philippe Ranger
I've been lead to believe, she will soon
realise what value to place on his comments.<<
Seriously, Mike, when you see the results in LANtimes, could you post the
reference here?
PhR
Adam Roslon
> reference here?
Yes I'd also like to read the letters that everyone send in if they don't
mind posting them. I would love to see how just how close the published
article remains to the facts and options offered
>
> PhR
>
>
>
Jim Presley
gadfly. Is this true?
Mike Orriss
> the most. Otherwise, why would you wish "I would just go away"?
>
OK, let me ask you a question. Having decided to leave Delphi and not
to purchase D4, what is your reason for seizing on every perceived
shortcoming and subject it to loud destructive criticism? Is it because
you consider that Inprise has failed you so you want Inprise to fail,
regardless of the effect on other people?
Adam Roslon
I'm not answering for Hector but I feel when it comes to a personal
relationship you make an investment bases on unconditional terms and
decisions . However when it comes to business relationship is not one of
love therefore it should be conditional, and definitely not personal. If
you make a large investment in a company in the form of building your
product around there products. Supporting them, promoting them, defending
them, and standing by them, you most definitely expect something in return.
As least some type of assurance that we are moving in the same direction.
I remember a company call UDC. I very glad that people have taken Hector's
approach when it came to not putting up with the B_ull Shit. If it wasn't
for former customers informing us more uninformed developers could have
made the mistake by investing resources into there products.
I feel if Inprise thinks that Hector or anyone else for that matter is
wrong or misrepresenting them why don't they just step up and convince us
Mike Orriss
> Seriously, Mike, when you see the results in LANtimes, could you post the
> reference here?
>
I've never even seen the publication.
Colin Wilson
> I am slowly making the transition to a more stable and reliable
> foundation for the future. Unfortunately, one can only say this for
> Microsoft VC++.
>
Have you visited microsoft.public.vstudio.general recently?? There
seem to be more problems with VC++ 6.0 than there were with D4.
Reportedly...
* It crashes.
* The IDE is slow.
* It nobbles Windows 98
* There are problems with ATL
.. etc, etc.
I've been using it since I got the August MSDN update, and I haven't
encountered any of these, but then I haven't had many problems with D4,
either.
Colin
e-mail :co...@wilsonc.demon.co.uk
web: http://www.wilsonc.demon.co.uk/delphi.htm
Hector Santos
On Aug 28, 1998 10:58am, MIKE ORRISS <M...@COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote to HECTOR
SANTOS:
MO> OK, let me ask you a question. Having decided to leave Delphi and not
MO> to purchase D4, what is your reason for seizing on every perceived
MO> shortcoming and subject it to loud destructive criticism?
If this was true, I would answer the question. But your question is
stupid and points to untrue accusations.
The only person making it a loud issue, well, is you Mike.
Peter N Roth
>Have you visited microsoft.public.vstudio.general recently?? There
>seem to be more problems with VC++ 6.0 than there were with D4.
Altho there might be a better ng than this for follow up... < shrug >
how does vc6 do with C++? I've heard that it hasn't gotten
any closer to the std than vc5. And the Gimpel adverts for
PCLint are _always_ diagnosed by BCB, whereas vc5 always
as in ALWAYS fails them.
--
Grace + Peace | Peter N Roth | Engineering Objects Int'l
Books on: Delphi, C++, Math, Engineering, Consulting, Life
http://www.inconresearch.com/eoi
Mike Orriss
> The only person making it a loud issue, well, is you Mike.
>
I will let others judge.
Hector Santos
On Aug 29, 1998 05:51am, MIKE ORRISS wrote to HECTOR SANTOS:
>> The only person making it a loud issue, well, is you Mike.
MO> I will let others judge.
Mike, question? Do you like apples?
Oh, you don't seem to have a problem judging others. You certainly
didn't have a problem with your unsolicited "Loud" judgement about
my comments to Polly, nor did you have a problem with your sad
confession about your insecurities with my presence in the forum.
But you know Mike, if it makes you feel better, allow me to confess that
I am the bad guy and you're the good guy. Feel better? Since I
have to keep with the bad guy image, like me just remind you my
comments to you are always 100% in response to what you have to say to
about me. I never write to you or criticize your comments. I guess
because you seem to never have anything valid to say. Just tells you
how much is instigated by whom around here. As far as I am concern, you
can "Judge this" and you can kiss my "heiny" while you are at it. I don't
give a flying hoot about your insecurities concerning my presence here.
If you want me to disappear, you can pay me $500,000 first. If you are
going to blame me for Borland's woes, you need to get out of the software
business and find a new line of work. There are MORE negativism publicity
about Borland out there than what I can ever provide. D4 problems are
real. Polly's rag report is not by my doing. In fact, she never solicited
my comments with this email thing. I only come to learn about it by
the PUBLIC POSTING you GUYS talked about and made a big stink about it.
I simply read the thread and join the fun, then sent my own unsolicited
comments to Polly.
But you know what? Do you know Polly and I talked over the phone?
Oh yes, I would say about 2-4 months ago she called me up out
of the blue. I forget the reasons, but I undoubtedly express my feelings
to her. She clearly KNOWS how I feel and she also probably regretted
calling me. I don't give too much weight to her reports.
I also get calls by stock market analyzers to get developer feedback.
Let me tell you mike. They send me complimentary reports and its not
good, not good at all. I don't even want to mention it here. Its that
bad.
The facts are undeniable. A growing amount of customers are not happy and
Polly is FEELING and SEEING that. So if that bothers you, wake up, smell
the coffee, you can't change the realities.
Fernand Raynaud
Jim, is that the best explanation you can come up with? Is it really that
hard to understand how this man feels after being a Borlander for 14 years
and watching his beloved tools get wasted? I've always thought of the
Borland thing as a hotbed of intelligent hackers, if nothing else.
Refreshing to see it's no longer such an exclusive club.
Fernand
Jim Presley <jpresley@HATESPAM_HATESPAMbigfoot.com> wrote in article
<35E6B08C.D5315896@HATESPAM_HATESPAMbigfoot.com>...
Fernand Raynaud
works?
Peter N Roth <refusi...@myaddress.com> wrote in article
<6s6t1r$rm...@forums.borland.com>...
Mike Vance
message shows a great degree of bias and unprofessional. I doubt this
person is truly a reporter.
--
Mike Vance
Jim Presley
>Is it really that hard to understand how this man feels after being a Borlander for 14 years and watching his
beloved tools get wasted?<
I see the intensity and doggedness of a paid gun. If it walks like a
duck... I believe someone pays some contributors based on the amount of
trouble they cause. They dissuade no Delphi users.
Fernand said:
>I've always thought of the Borland thing as a hotbed of intelligent hackers, if nothing else.<
It is just this honest expectation that someone may be systematically
exploiting. If you were without scruple (like say, MS), would you foment
unrest in a competitor's forum? Probably so. Have you noticed a
increasing meanness in the forum lately? Ironically the Delphi product
continues to be the unreachable exemplar for other development tools -
and the gap is widening.
Have you noticed a search on headhunter.net for "delphi" yields over
1,100 hits? A year ago it was 400.
Jeff Overcash
the ANSI C++ standard the compiler is. As Peter mentioned, BCB3 is much
closer to the ANSI C++ standard than VC6 is. Having a compiler than extends
the language does not make it a non ANSI Standard compliant compiler. If that
compiler will correctly compile ANSI C++ code it is ANSI compiliant whether or
not it will also compile non ANSI standard extensions.
At this time there are several sections of MFC that must have the standard
broken to correctly compile. As long as this remains, VC++ will never be ANSI
compliant because it will not properly compile ANSI C++ code.
Jeff Overcash
In article <01bdd3f4$bad03490$3b39e2cd@laura>, "Fernand Raynaud"
Richard Bayarri Bartual
Philippe Ranger
Mike, it's really none of my business, but I think you'd have been better
off just to do so, and not post anything. The post you were replying to
pretty much spoke for (i.e. against) itself. Now, you've triggered another
long one from Hector.
PhR
Mike Orriss
> but I think you'd have been better
> off just to do so, and not post anything.
>
Yep, I realised that rather belatedly, but soon enough to kill a
further reply sitting in my outbasket.
Lorie Hull
> The facts are undeniable. A growing amount of customers are not happy > and Polly is FEELING and SEEING that. So if that bothers you, wake
> up, smell the coffee, you can't change the realities.
FWIW, I heard Polly received hundreds of replies from people with lots
of good things to say about Delphi and Inprise.
--
- lorie
Hector Santos
On Sep 01, 1998 12:08pm, LORIE HULL <LH...@INPRISE.COM> wrote to HECTOR
SANTOS:
LH> FWIW, I heard Polly received hundreds of replies from people with lots
LH> of good things to say about Delphi and Inprise.
Thats good to hear. Should be enough to cancel out any perceived issues.
I guess these are all lies and all the negative publicity is a Gate's
conspiracy to sidetrack his own problems. :=)
Inprise
Haven't you noticed that this newserver is famous for it's somewhat
'inward-looking' contributors? You can have the best of intentions, but if
you ever make a criticism towards any Borland product - you will be attacked
in every way possible. People are afraid to do what *we* do in the real
world and make something constructive from others criticism. Since nobody
is listening, perhaps it is time to get out before they put Steve Jobs in
charge. <g>
Visual C++ 6 is out now and I wonder whether you have considered doing what
the rest of us 'complainers' have done since the launch of the D4 monster.
Switch. Even the marketing beta is about 80% more stable than the first
final release of Delphi 4 and the new environment is RADical. Some Delphi
programmers (from v1 to v4) were surprised when I told them that it doesn't
crash. Not at all. No way. Oh no. And that's from one months worth of
programming with the beta! What's more, you can even criticise aspects of
it in its provided newsgroups and people are helpful and constructive rather
than easily offended and unfriendly. Delphi 3 projects (minus packages)
converted into their most optimized VC++ equivalent are at least 60-80%
lighter by way of exe compiled code, 10-20(ish) % faster in execution,
correctly displaying in the windows environment (that animated windows
stuff, etc.) and on top of that - the simplest, most common of tasks is
*not* difficult to perform without consulting the TIs(screensavers, cp
applets, etc.).
It's like entering another world. A world some would never have dreamed of
entering was it not for the unfriendliness on the Inprise news server and
lack of constructive effort from Inprise themselves.
while (Inprise == Instability)
{
switchproducts(now);
switchcompany(now);
switchloyalty(now);
}
With it's current setup, Inprise is obviously not going to be here in two
years time. And that's pushing it. It's time to get out of this dwindling
'enthusiasts club' for good rather than be unprepared when it finally folds
in on itself.
Steve Koterski
<hsa...@secured.santronics.com> wrote:
>On Sep 01, 1998 12:08pm, LORIE HULL <LH...@INPRISE.COM> wrote to HECTOR
>SANTOS:
>
> LH> FWIW, I heard Polly received hundreds of replies from people with lots
> LH> of good things to say about Delphi and Inprise.
>
>Thats good to hear. Should be enough to cancel out any perceived issues.
> I guess these are all lies and all the negative publicity is a Gate's
>conspiracy to sidetrack his own problems. :=)
Not necessarily. By definition, these newsgroups (speaking of all the
newsgroups as a whole) are a source of negative feedback. Why? More often
than not, the posts are from someone having a problem -- bug, how-to, or
what have you -- and seeking help. It is less often (but not unheard of
<grin>) for someone to post for the sole reason of praising Delphi. If you
used *only* the newsgroups as the basis for an evaluation of whether Delphi
is good or bad, the newsgroups would provide a negative bias, and naturally
so for the above reasons.
But here we have someone *soliciting* opinions. The responses will be
deliberate and so will contain a better, more realistic mix of positive and
negative feedback.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Steve Koterski "The knowledge of the world is only to
Technical Publications be acquired in the world, and not in a
INPRISE Corporation closet."
http://www.inprise.com/delphi -- Earl of Chesterfield (1694-1773)
Lorie Hull
--
- lorie
Steve Koterski
>Thanks, Steve. I was going to say this as well. :)
So does that make yours a "me too!" post? <gd&r>
Jim Presley
days.
Only this wasn't worth too much. You have to use your real name to get
the big money. Also I don't think Inprise will be too happy about your
use of *their* name.
Ben Matterson
> With it's current setup, Inprise is obviously not going to be here in two
> years time. And that's pushing it.
I have worked here more than five years, and I have heard this same
song every few months from one source or another for the whole time.
We're still here.
Ben
--
Inprise Electronic Marketing
Online Forum Sysop
Frank Cowan
<j_stree...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hector:
>
>Haven't you noticed that this newserver is famous for it's somewhat
>'inward-looking' contributors? You can have the best of intentions, but if
>you ever make a criticism towards any Borland product - you will be attacked
Well, lets see. No name, and address is 'hotmail'. Another Pimp for
the MS machine?
Frank Cowan, Delphian
http://signaldata.com
See you at ICon 99 in Phila-Delphi-a !
Material Fellow
>
> j_stree...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > With it's current setup, Inprise is obviously not going to be here in two
> > years time. And that's pushing it.
>
> I have worked here more than five years, and I have heard this same
> song every few months from one source or another for the whole time.
> We're still here.
>
> Ben
Remember the difference between, say Lion years, dog years and people
years.
Some of the people who make such predictions are dogs.
Some are simply Lion. <g>
Ben Matterson
>
> Ben Matterson wrote:
> >
> > j_stree...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > With it's current setup, Inprise is obviously not going to be here in two
> > > years time. And that's pushing it.
> >
> > I have worked here more than five years, and I have heard this same
> > song every few months from one source or another for the whole time.
> > We're still here.
> Remember the difference between, say Lion years, dog years and people
> years.
>
> Some of the people who make such predictions are dogs.
>
> Some are simply Lion. <g>
Thanks, Jim. :)