Why PHP?
TObject
http://blogs.borland.com/AndreanoLanusse/archive/2007/02/02/31630.aspx
I always considered PHP a competitor to Delphi. So, I am curious as to why Borland is promoting PHP?
Thanks
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> I always considered PHP a competitor to Delphi.
In one very specific market segment, I guess. In general, no, I don't
think so.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Want to help make Delphi and InterBase better? Use QC!
http://qc.borland.com -- Vote for important issues
Brian Moelk
> So, I am curious as to why Borland is promoting PHP?
I suspect they'll produce a PHP product soon.
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
bmo...@NObrainSPAMendeavorFOR.MEcom
Liz
Not really, PHP runs on unix as well as windows, delphi comes as win32
and .net, which while .net can be made to run on windows, less linux
boxes etc have that option installed, whereas most come with PHP, php
is quite a good web language to dabble with
--
Liz the Brit
Delphi things I have released: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk/DelphiThings
Marco Sangali
http://blogs.codegear.com/davidi/archive/2006/12/19/30747.aspx
Regards,
Marco
"TObject"
tony
> TObject wrote:
> > So, I am curious as to why Borland is promoting PHP?
>
> I suspect they'll produce a PHP product soon.
That would be sweet, if they do I hope it would be along the lines of
the vaporware from http://www.qadram.com/products.php
--
Erwin van den Bosch
PHP == Linux
CG == Microsoft only
--
Erwin van den Bosch
TNG applications
David Dean [CodeGear]
er...@tng-applications.nl (Erwin van den Bosch) wrote:
> PHP == Linux
>
> CG == Microsoft only
CodeGear has announced that the next update for JBuilder will include
support for non MS OSes. Interbase runs on multiple operating systems. I
hope we release more products that are multi-platform.
--
-David Dean
CodeGear C++ QA Engineer
<http://blogs.codegear.com/ddean/>
Anders Ohlsson (CodeGear)
> CG == Microsoft only
Huh?
--
Anders Ohlsson - http://blogs.codegear.com/ao/
CodeGear Developer Relations
"A golf course that does not have a pub after the 18th hole
is like an acupuncturist who does not offer needle removal."
Brian Moelk
> That would be sweet,
maybe...we'll see.
> if they do I hope it would be along the lines of
> the vaporware from http://www.qadram.com/products.php
There are a few other PHP tools out there: Zend, Komodo, PhpED and
vs.php. We'll see how things stack up after it's released.
Luke
> I always considered PHP a competitor to Delphi. So, I am curious as to why Borland is promoting PHP?
I don't know about Borland but I know why I am promoting Prado
framework for PHP :-) Yes, it's free!
Please visit:
http://www.pradosoft.com/demos/quickstart/?page=Fundamentals.Architecture
Regards,
L.
Marco Sangali
Firebird in Windows some time ago, altough for windows-only solution I think
ASP.NET or Intraweb are superior. I've also know a PHP developer who uses OS
X for development and deploys on Linux, afaik without issues. So, even if
the development tool is Windows-based, you can still depoy it anyware.
Regards,
Marco
chapulin
"> I always considered PHP a competitor to Delphi. So, I am curious as to
why Borland is promoting PHP?
PHP is everywhere in the web it would be a good alternative to ASP.NET after
the delay in .NET 2.0 in Delphi it would be great to have a PHP tool.
chapulin
David Clegg
> PHP == Linux
I must have been imagining the Windows Server 2003 based PHP web site I
used to maintain at my last job.
> CG == Microsoft only
I think Interbase and JBuilder disprove this myth.
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dcl...@gmail.com
http://cc.codegear.com/Author/72299
QualityCentral. The best way to bug CodeGear about bugs.
http://qc.codegear.com
"First you don't want me to get the pony, then you want me to take it
back. Make up your mind." - Homer Simpson
Lou
PHP framework. I sure wish I had a RAD tool to develop PHP web apps.
- Lou
Liz
> PHP is very interesting. I am currently experiemnting with Prado, a
> PHP framework. I sure wish I had a RAD tool to develop PHP web apps.
dreamweaver almost works in place of a rad tool :)
Erwin van den Bosch
<david....@spam.codegear.com> wrote:
>In article <45c7a6b7...@forums.borland.com>,
> er...@tng-applications.nl (Erwin van den Bosch) wrote:
>
>> PHP == Linux
>>
>> CG == Microsoft only
>
> CodeGear has announced that the next update for JBuilder will include
>support for non MS OSes.
An announcement is not the same as a box you can buy.
>Interbase runs on multiple operating systems.
Interbase is just a database. No IDE, no developers language
> I hope we release more products that are multi-platform.
I hope so too. Because if you want to develop multi-platform these
days (apple, linux, windows), you have to use C++. And I'm sorry to
say but I think it's better to use ms-c++ (or maybe gnu-c++) then
CG-c++ in this case. Codegear is just following the Microsoft defined
world. But the world is so much bigger! It's a mistake that CG has
dropped Kylix. If you only know how many government institutes/offices
are switching to Linux. Lot's of Windows Delphi software has to be
port to Linux. The only serious way to do that is leave Delphi and
switch to C++. There goes your new future Codegear!
Nils Boedeker
>
> I suspect they'll produce a PHP product soon.
>
I really like to see a nativ 64bit Delphi "before" codegear spend there
time for an new experiments.
You have REALLY a lot of Free Open Source Products everywhere.
Only any Typ of connection between delphi and PhP will be interesting..
Nils
Nils Boedeker
>
> You have REALLY a lot of Free Open Source "PHP" Products everywhere.
>
Nils
TObject
would be full with PHP enthusiasts. Well, it looks like you may be
getting what you wish for. Good luck to you.
I guess my biggest issue with this is, again, focus. Borland is going
to chase the yet another thing, PHP in this case, while Delphi is
going to be neglected.
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> I guess my biggest issue with this is, again, focus. Borland is going
> to chase the yet another thing, PHP in this case, while Delphi is
> going to be neglected.
Er, let's see what they actually *do* before flaming them for it, OK?
:)
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Everything You Need to Know About InterBase Character Sets:
http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/articles/403.aspx
Tom
> :)
Or lack of with regard to Delphi, right?
Tom
> to chase the yet another thing, PHP in this case, while Delphi is
> going to be neglected.
My thoughts exactly. As I stated before, a company with a big wallet
continues to reinvent the wheel and it simply makes no sense. Why not just
purchase what you need (i.e. Unicode VCL, PHP IDE, etc.)? Why spend time
writing the same thing?
Marco Sangali
> :)"
You must be new here... :-)
( I know you are not)
Regards,
Marco
GrandmasterB
news:45c8e179$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>> PHP in this case, while Delphi is
>> going to be neglected.
> being neglected. We can do more than one thing at a time.
So is that a confirmation on the PHP project? ;-)
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> My thoughts exactly. As I stated before, a company with a big wallet
> continues to reinvent the wheel and it simply makes no sense. Why
> not just purchase what you need (i.e. Unicode VCL, PHP IDE, etc.)?
> Why spend time writing the same thing?
Our thoughts exactly.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> PHP in this case, while Delphi is
> going to be neglected.
It simply doesn't work this way. Delphi is //////////NOT//////////
being neglected. We can do more than one thing at a time.
--
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
>
> So is that a confirmation on the PHP project? ;-)
I neither confirm nor deny it. ;-)
![John Wester [Group W]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjX7MfFV4bpUMKhd3O4cW-h2vFTrW-F7yUbVrVHBdg8cGJVZHJgj=s40-c)
John Wester [Group W]
> GrandmasterB wrote:
>
> >
> > So is that a confirmation on the PHP project? ;-)
>
> I neither confirm nor deny it. ;-)
I think you should quote Sir Francis Urquhart in "House of Cards":
You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.
--
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.
Yes, that's a good answer as well. ;-)
Gbenga Abimbola
It would be nice to see a great IDE for PHP. I played with
Zend Studio at one time (it could have been much improved
since then), while it is a great product, an
IDE (with drag/drop) would be nice, especially for designing
forms (web pages). Yes, we can code, but there is
nothing wrong with justwrong components to save some time,
and then, write some stuff behind it.
I think there is money to make, if CG dabbles into PHP IDE.
A lot of people are using the product theses days. As I
understand, PHP now implements Object-Oriented programming.
"TObject" <noe...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>I just run across some PHP tutorials on the Borland web site:
>
>http://blogs.borland.com/AndreanoLanusse/archive/2007/02/02/31630.aspx
>
>I always considered PHP a competitor to Delphi. So, I am curious as to why Borland is promoting PHP?
>
>Thanks
>
>
Eddie Shipman
Eddie Shipman
> Gbenga Abimbola wrote:
>
> >
> > It would be nice to see a great IDE for PHP. I played with
> > Zend Studio at one time (it could have been much improved
> > since then), while it is a great product, an
> > IDE (with drag/drop) would be nice, especially for designing
> > forms (web pages). Yes, we can code, but there is
> > nothing wrong with justwrong components to save some time,
> > and then, write some stuff behind it.
> >
> > I think there is money to make, if CG dabbles into PHP IDE.
> > A lot of people are using the product theses days. As I
> > understand, PHP now implements Object-Oriented programming.
> >
> >
> > "TObject" <noe...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > > I just run across some PHP tutorials on the Borland web site:
> > >
> > > http://blogs.borland.com/AndreanoLanusse/archive/2007/02/02/31630.
> > > as px
> > >
> > > I always considered PHP a competitor to Delphi. So, I am curious
> > > as to why Borland is promoting PHP?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Here is one that is really fine:
> http://www.nusphere.com/products/phped.htm
FYI, It is written in Delphi, too...
--
Joachim Uersfeld
features, various builders and supports more languages than php.
Joachim
In article <xn0f252xp...@forums.borland.com>, Eddie Shipman
wrote:
Bruno
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
> framework. I sure wish I had a RAD tool to develop PHP web apps.
Stay tuned :o)
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
> to chase the yet another thing, PHP in this case, while Delphi is
> going to be neglected.
You'll find that we are increasinig focus on Delphi, native in particular -
and we will also be coming out with PHP products without detracting from
Delphi. In the day's of Kylix, for example, a significant portion of the
Delphi team was taken off of Delphi to build the Linux ver - same with
Delphi for .NET we had to take developers off of native Delphi to build the
.NET versions - as CodeGear we're not taking that type of approach. Native
Delphi and C++Builder development will be done year round and we're
increasing our focus and support over past years - Delphi and VCL will be
the "center of the universe" for CodeGear RAD products.
TObject
your product development plans. After reading your post,
the new PHP direction certainly appears to me much less threatening.
GrandmasterB
message news:45ca1faa$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> You'll find that we are increasinig focus on Delphi, native in
> particular -
> increasing our focus and support over past years - Delphi and VCL will be
> the "center of the universe" for CodeGear RAD products.
Woo hoo!!!! :-)
> and we will also be coming out with PHP products without detracting from
Looking forward to them!
Sandeep Chandra
agreement with qadram to sell their tool QStudio. They were to release
QStudio in December but so far haven't heard anything from them.
Regards
Sandeep
Craig
> Delphi and C++Builder development will be done year round and we're
> increasing our focus and support over past years - Delphi and VCL will be
> the "center of the universe" for CodeGear RAD products.
>
I think this is a good plan. Even though I do more .NET development
these days I think for CodeGears short to medium term future a focus on
native Win32/Win64 is a good bet.
Cesar Romero
Im glad to see you here and stimulated about ur post, really hope the
Codegear direction make the Delphi users more confortable after this
year releases. :)
As you touch in Kylix (taboo) issue, any change to have any clue about
what you think about Simon proposal?
Can we expect any good news about kylix, like about PHP?
Best regards,
Cesar Romero
> You'll find that we are increasinig focus on Delphi, native in
> particular - and we will also be coming out with PHP products without
> detracting from Delphi. In the day's of Kylix, for example, a
> significant portion of the Delphi team was taken off of Delphi to
> build the Linux ver - same with Delphi for .NET we had to take
> developers off of native Delphi to build the .NET versions - as
> CodeGear we're not taking that type of approach. Native Delphi and
> C++Builder development will be done year round and we're increasing
> our focus and support over past years - Delphi and VCL will be the
> "center of the universe" for CodeGear RAD products.
--
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
> what you think about Simon proposal?
> Can we expect any good news about kylix, like about PHP?
We haven't changed the status of Kylix, however the basic concept of a Linux
cross-compiler which is at the heart of Simon Kissel's proposal is
interesting, and is something that we've considered seriously in the past.
The parts that I have trouble with in Simon's proposal revolve around the
business assumptions, not that it's not a good idea from a user or technical
perspective, but what the past performance was (it was better than people
assume), what the cost is (it's very expensive to make and maintain Kylix,
much more so than Delphi or C++Builder), and the potential (most of the
development being done on Linux that is end user facing is on the LAMP
stack, the "market" for Linux GUI apps is far less than Windows) - so it's
more expensive to produce and has less market opportunity than Windows.
Putting the business performance and projection problems aside, if we were
to revive Kylix, it would most likely be developer studio plug-in,
cross-compiling and debugging from Windows to Linux. Simon nailed some of
the issues and ideas very well and I've committed to reopen the evaluation
and communicate our status by the end of March. I would love to do more
Kylix, it just has to be a sound business move that doesn't hurt our Delphi
and C++ users/products - and Simon brought up some good suggestions, and we
have some ideas that are interesting that might solve some of the "issues"
with Kylix.
Brad White
message news:45ca1faa$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Feels good to hear something definite along this line.
--
Thanks,
Brad.
Robin
So, um when are you folk going to sleep!
You are either:
a) Pulling 20 hour days for at least the next few months,
b) Hiring a lot more staff, or
c) Borland was stealing considerably more of your developers and staff
to do other projects then I ever believed.
d) Some combination of the above.
--
Robin.
Australian Bridal Accessories := http://www.bridalbuzz.com.au
Turbo for Noobs (a work in progress) := http://turbofornoobs.blogspot.com/
Jolyon Smith
> You are either:
> a) Pulling 20 hour days for at least the next few months,
> b) Hiring a lot more staff, or
> c) Borland was stealing considerably more of your developers and staff
> to do other projects then I ever believed.
> d) Some combination of the above.
or
e) Setting unrealistic expectations
;)
--
Jolyon Smith
Say, do any of you guys know how to Madison?
Cesar Romero
I undertand Borland reasons to stoped kylix in the past, business is
business, but as Borland we have our business too and in the past some
of us invest in kylix.
Now is other time, Linux market isnt the same, people around the world
start more and more to use Linux, not only people that want free
software, but people that like/want linux/unix and dont want to have
only MS as option, its business, I work in a little company, but our
revenue have more than 40% comming from Linux, and we invest in Linux
market.
Hope in march have good news, but in the right time, please give a
chance to us, give a chance to Kylix, accept community offer to help
you, as my suggestion keep a low investiment focusing in the compiler
and RTL there is where CG have the power, let your partners add value
with their components, tools and plugins, you will add value to Delphi
and we will add value to our software.
I think with that you will show for the world that Codegear will not
follow the way that Borland did last few years and the Delphi community
can be back like 90s.
Really apreciate your coments, and yes PHP tool is really welcome here.
[]s
Cesar Romero
> We haven't changed the status of Kylix, however the basic concept of
> a Linux cross-compiler which is at the heart of Simon Kissel's
> proposal is interesting, and is something that we've considered
> seriously in the past. The parts that I have trouble with in Simon's
> proposal revolve around the business assumptions, not that it's not a
> good idea from a user or technical perspective, but what the past
> performance was (it was better than people assume), what the cost is
> (it's very expensive to make and maintain Kylix, much more so than
> Delphi or C++Builder), and the potential (most of the development
> being done on Linux that is end user facing is on the LAMP stack, the
> "market" for Linux GUI apps is far less than Windows) - so it's more
> expensive to produce and has less market opportunity than Windows.
> Putting the business performance and projection problems aside, if we
> were to revive Kylix, it would most likely be developer studio
> plug-in, cross-compiling and debugging from Windows to Linux. Simon
> nailed some of the issues and ideas very well and I've committed to
> reopen the evaluation and communicate our status by the end of March.
> I would love to do more Kylix, it just has to be a sound business
> move that doesn't hurt our Delphi and C++ users/products - and Simon
> brought up some good suggestions, and we have some ideas that are
> interesting that might solve some of the "issues" with Kylix.
--
Robin
> or
>
> e) Setting unrealistic expectations
>
> ;)
>
My coffee cup was half *full* when I made that list :-)
Jolyon Smith
> Jolyon Smith wrote:
> > or
> >
> > e) Setting unrealistic expectations
> >
> > ;)
> >
>
> My coffee cup was half *full* when I made that list :-)
Mine too - I spilt the other half. tsk - just my luck.
lol
Jolyon Smith
(CodeGear) says...
> The key to success is not in doing more
> it's actually in doing less and doing it well, it's about focus
Yay!
> an example is RAD native code development
Ra-ra-ra!
> you will see a
> renewed focus from us on RAD and native code because most
> of our customers want it
Woo-hoo!
> it's something we do very well
Amen!
> the competition is focusing on
> other things
Come on baby... bring it on home...!
> and there aren't really any viable open source alternatives
Eureka!
> I know I'm going to get flamed for that
Slings and arrows. Slings and arrows.
> There will be new Delphi and C++ products coming out this year that are
> going to be focused on native code with high quality and high performance.
O...M...G...!
:D
I hope I'm not reading too much into the spaces between those lines.
;)
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
tell me about it! :) we are definitely putting in a lot of hours, but this
is the stuff we love to do. we're very fortunate to be doing what we do and
working for a company that is focused on development tools... when you're
doing what you love to do it's easy to let the hours pile up. by the way, we
are hiring more people - engineering, sales, marketing, etc, that also love
development tools and don't mind putting in a few extra hrs to get it right
;o)
> You are either:
> a) Pulling 20 hour days for at least the next few months,
> b) Hiring a lot more staff, or
> c) Borland was stealing considerably more of your developers and staff to
> do other projects then I ever believed.
> d) Some combination of the above.
Lol... some of it is hiring more staff, which we have been doing over the
last year and are still doing. But most of it is focusing on the right
problems, features, and products. The key to success is not in doing more
it's actually in doing less and doing it well, it's about focus - focusing
on
- where the majority of our customers and potential customers problems are
and solving them in innovative ways
- innovation - not reinventing whats already being done by a hundred small
companies or open source projects or one 800lb gorilla but real innovation
- each products reason for "being" - for example Delphi wasn't built to be
"an alternative to VS" we're here for a reason. For rapid application
development on Windows, to be the best Windows development tool in the
world... Fast UI performance, component based development, and great
database connectivity.
Anyhow, as CodeGear we are resetting our focus on the things that matter and
matter to the most developers and our customers. Sometimes that is going to
mean that we're going to make a hard choice not to do something because it's
simply too niche and doesn't a broad enough appeal, sometimes we're going to
make a hard choice not to do something because it's already being done and
being done well - but it means that we're going to do the things that really
matter very well - an example is RAD native code development, you will see a
renewed focus from us on RAD and native code because most of our customers
want it, it's something we do very well, the competition is focusing on
other things, and there aren't really any viable open source alternatives (I
know I'm going to get flamed for that, but unfinished OSS projects that have
been in beta for ten years are not viable solutions for production quality
projects).
A side effect of focusing on what "really matters" and doing less is higher
quality and performance which is also something that we promise to deliver
on. There will be new Delphi and C++ products coming out this year that are
going to be focused on native code with high quality and high performance.
It also means that we're going to listen to our customers and if we need to
we'll re-evaluate old decisions and strategies - but we'll do it on a WW
basis inclusive of the whole market and the whole Delphi customer base.
Ack... I have to be somewhere in 15min. Gotta go! :)
-Michael
Robin
><snip>
Wow Michael, Just wow.
I hope you are going to put this all somewhere prominent!
David Clegg
> sometimes we're going to make a hard choice not to do something
> because it's already being done and being done well
Hmm... my first thought when reading this line was "So where does that
leave the .NET support in BDS?". Will it continue to be improved going
forward, or will it languish due to a renewed focus (and rightly so,
considering the the majority of your customers needs) on native
development?
While I can go elsewhere for any general .NET development needs, the
same isn't true for my ECO needs. And besides, overall I prefer the BDS
IDE to any other .NET IDE I've experienced to date.
I'm sorry if my reading between the lines is far from the mark, but
this *is* non-tech after all, where we prefer to keep fit by leaping to
conclusions. :-)
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dcl...@gmail.com
http://cc.codegear.com/Author/72299
QualityCentral. The best way to bug CodeGear about bugs.
http://qc.codegear.com
Stu
...
> Anyhow, as CodeGear we are resetting our focus on the things that matter and
> matter to the most developers and our customers. Sometimes that is going to
...
>
> -Michael
Wow. It's great to hear the voice of leadership, and I'm eagerly
anticipating the products.
Thank you!
-- Stu
Jolyon Smith
> this *is* non-tech after all, where we prefer to keep fit by leaping to
> conclusions. :-)
I leap o'er conclusions in a single bound.
:D
chapulin
Nathaniel L. Walker
There are .NET data providers for pretty much all the major
free and commercial databases:
MySQL
PostgreSQL
Firebird
Interbase
MSSQL
Sybase
Oracle
DB/2
Isn't there even one for SQLite, or am I mistaken?
There are more than enough free databases to suite the needs of
pretty much everyone. Maybe the problem is finding a host that
will allow you some other database on their servers?
- Nate.
"chapulin" <chap...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45caafa5$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Ingvar Nilsen
>
> > ASP.NET is far more productive than PHP, IMHO.
> >
> The problem is that ASP.NET webhosting is expensive using MSSQL.
MS SQL Express will cover your needs
--
Ingvar Nilsen
Brand New Web Site! Free Delphi Tool:
http://www.ingvarius.com
Roddy Pratt
> It simply doesn't work this way. Delphi is NOT
> being neglected. We can do more than one thing at a time.
I know and agree that Codegear needs to have several strings to it's
bow. It can't rely on Delphi (or even BDS) alone.
However, adding a new product to your lineup *will* cost you resources
- regardless of how you do it. Time, money and people. Codegear MUST
make decisions about whether to use those resources improving Delphi,
or on something else.
I don't think there's anything "bad" about saying stuff to your
customers like "We don't have infinite resources. We made a business
decision that we're going to develop PHPBuilder/whatever instead of
managed C++Builder/whatever. Some of you will be disappointed, but we
hope a whole lot more of you will be delighted."
- Roddy
--
Marco Caspers
<snip>
> However, adding a new product to your lineup will cost you resources
> - regardless of how you do it. Time, money and people. Codegear MUST
> make decisions about whether to use those resources improving Delphi,
> or on something else.
<snip>
Seems like they did make those descisions, your either not listening or
you don't like them.
Thats up to you ofcourse, but making descisions they did and will do in
the future.
--
Roddy Pratt
> Seems like they did make those descisions, your either not listening
> or you don't like them.
Reread what I wrote. I'm happy they're making decisions, and I'm NOT
unhappy with the decisions that I see. But saying "our decision to do A
won't affect our ability to do B,C,D..." doesn't cut it. You're making
tradeoffs, because resources *are* finite. Nothing wrong with
tradeoffs, but don't pretend they don't exist.
- Roddy
--
Simon Kissel
let me take this chance to point out something that isn't mentioned
in my proposal document, simply because at that time your PHP
plans had not yet been known.
Personally I'm a bit sceptical about that PHP venture due to it
being a market you've got zero reputation in etc.
But if you do the PHP stuff and are considering also going cross-
platform with Delphi, I see a huge synergy effect in there:
If CodeGear comes up with a PHP IDE, wouldn't it be great if Delphi
allowed you to create PHP extensions for it? Keep in mind, PHP is a
scripting language, "components" (=extensions) need to be written in
a native code language to give usuable performance. Combining these
two would allow you to test your PHP extensions directly inside the
PHP IDE - it would even make sense to have Delphi and PHP personalities
in BDS this way.
This would be even greater for CodeGear's partners/component vendors:
Components from once-Delphi-only component vendors could be shipped
together with the PHP IDE product (maybe some licensed, others as
trial on the partner CD).
Selling just another PHP IDE without anything new doesn't sound that
interesting - how about selling a PHP IDE that provides a benefit
over other PHP IDEs, because it already includes PHP components and
allows you to add new ones?
I don't know how that fits into your PHP concept, but possibly
this is something worth thinking about, as it appears to be a
win-win for Delphi and the PHP IDE.
Simon
Bob Swart
> If CodeGear comes up with a PHP IDE, wouldn't it be great if Delphi
> allowed you to create PHP extensions for it?
What makes you think Michael hasn't thought of this himself?
> Simon
Groetjes,
Bob Swart
--
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) Forever Loyal to Delphi
Blog: http://www.drbob42.com/blog - RSS: http://drbob42.com/weblog.xml
New Delphi 2006 Courseware e-books at http://www.eBob42.com/courseware
Simon Kissel
>> If CodeGear comes up with a PHP IDE, wouldn't it be great if Delphi
>> allowed you to create PHP extensions for it?
>
> What makes you think Michael hasn't thought of this himself?
Nothing. I knew nothing about in what direction that PHP project
of CodeGear was going - it could have been that it was planned
as a completely seperated project without any synergy effects.
This changed a few minutes ago after that "Delphi Astro - Delphi for
PHP" posting.
Simon
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
> leave the .NET support in BDS?". Will it continue to be improved going
.NET support is being updated and improved in parallel. We will be working
to bring the .NET personality of Delphi more in line with the Win32 version.
More focus on CodeGear frameworks on .NET and Win32 ie database, GUI, Web
and a long term view of .NET as a great enterprise Windows API and services,
rather than a separate "platform".
We will be realigning the editions and the notion of the Studio this year.
We will have separate Win32 focused Delphi and C++ releases, then later a
studio that includes .NET and Win32. We will also be releasing products on a
more frequent basis - smaller releases with focused features and high
quality which is going to make studio subscriptions a much more popular and
cost effective model for customers. Nick is updating the Roadmap and will be
launching it in coordination with some announcements we have coming
on. -m
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> However, adding a new product to your lineup will cost you resources
> - regardless of how you do it. Time, money and people. Codegear MUST
> make decisions about whether to use those resources improving Delphi,
> or on something else.
Yup, totally agreed. We've looked at the situation, and feel we've
made some outstanding decisions in that regard that will lead to great
products and happy customers.
I can tell you that it won't be the case that we'll do Delphi and only
Delphi. As we grow, we'll be expanding into new markets. We can do
this without "neglecting" Delphi.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
Some products will be more in the RAD camp, aligned with Delphi and VCL, and
others will be more in the Open Source/Eclipse/Enterprise world. As a
developer focused company we cannot be just the Object Pascal, C++, Java
development company... there is way too much happening in the world of
programming and languages and frameworks for us to stand still. Phillippe
was willing to try different languages and products, some didn't stick
(turbo modula), and others were wildly successful and decendents are still
here today (Turbo Pascal, Turbo C++).
I can't yet comment or confirm leaks on future PHP products (that Swedish
announcement was a no no), but *anything* we do in the Delphi world has be
centered around a VCL framework, visual design, and allow component
development. By PHP extensions, do you mean extensions for the IDE written
in PHP?
Re cross-platform Delphi and the comments about CLX (VCL for Linux) in the
paper. I'd like to see more discussion and thoughts around CLX and Qt and
Gtk... what would a second generation CLX look like? Could it be completely
open source and community developed with CodeGear support? How long would it
take to develop? For CLX we did a mechanical port of VCL, then "hand wired"
it from GDI to Qt - it was very manual and time consuming, took a loooong
time.
"Simon Kissel" <kis...@computerman.de> wrote in message
news:45cb2a7c$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Cesar Romero
> Re cross-platform Delphi and the comments about CLX (VCL for Linux)
> in the paper. I'd like to see more discussion and thoughts around CLX
> and Qt and Gtk...
- GTK is too bug
- I think that QT 4 will be nice, but it should be more compatible with
regular VCL, the old aproach was not cool.
> what would a second generation CLX look like?
At moment I dont care too much about this,
I really need write App servers in Linux, socket, database, remobjects.
but I like this project http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/index.html
>Could it be completely open source and community developed with
CodeGear support?
Why not? I can give my 2 cents.
> How long would it take to develop?
First we have to define what to develop?
And for that we need a updated compiler and RTL, its up to CG.
> For CLX we did a mechanical port of VCL, then "hand wired" it from
GDI > to Qt - it was very manual and time consuming, took a loooong
time.
Instead to rewrite a VCL why not create a compatibility layer between
CG VCL and the SO Graphic library?
Think about work with people that have something ready, eg FPGui.
[]s
Cesar Romero
Rick Carter
>We will be realigning the editions and the notion of the Studio this
year.
>We will have separate Win32 focused Delphi and C++ releases, then later
a
>studio that includes .NET and Win32. We will also be releasing products
on a
>more frequent basis - smaller releases with focused features and high
>quality which is going to make studio subscriptions a much more popular
and
>cost effective model for customers. Nick is updating the Roadmap and
will be
>launching it in coordination with some announcements we have coming
>on. -m
Hoo hah! Bring it on!
Rick Carter
cart...@despammed.com
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group
--- posted by geoForum on http://delphi.newswhat.com
Nils Boedeker
> By PHP extensions, do you mean extensions for the IDE written
> in PHP?
take a look at this:
http://members.chello.be/ws36637/php4delphi.html
This is a solution... only problem is that it is - at the time - not
threadsafe...
Nils Bödeker
Thomas Miller
So when will we see UNICODE and native 64 bit.
How about plugins for FreePascal so you can deploy to other platforms.
I still think the best thing for the Pascal community would be for you
to open up the VCL, ala Qt. You would still make a lot of money,
probably more then you do now.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear) wrote:
> TObject wrote:
>
>> PHP in this case, while Delphi is
>> going to be neglected.
>
> It simply doesn't work this way. Delphi is //////////NOT//////////
> being neglected. We can do more than one thing at a time.
>
--
Thomas Miller
Chrome Portal Project Manager
CPCUG Programmers SIG Chairperson (formally Delphi)
Delphi Client/Server Certified Developer
BSS Accounting & Distribution Software
BSS Enterprise Accounting FrameWork
http://www.bss-software.com
http://programmers.cpcug.org/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/chromeportal/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/uopl/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dbexpressplus
maramirezc
Nils Boedeker <NilsBo...@t-online.de> wrote:
>I really like to see a nativ 64bit Delphi "before" codegear >spend there time for an new experiments.
Agree. CodeGear should focus on release the existing "roadmap".
>You have REALLY a lot of Free Open Source Products everywhere.
I would like to see some of those experiments, AFTER THEY RELEASE Win64 and Unicode support.
Because the existing products for PHP, either Open Source or Paid Source doesn't fullfill my requirements...
But Delphi is the priority...
Just my $0.02
maramirezc
Simon Kissel
> By PHP extensions, do you mean extensions for the IDE written in PHP?
With a RAD IDE, a PHP extension also would be an IDE extension to some
extend, but that's not what I really mean.
The main point is: PHP is a scripting language and not really fast.
It's perfectly fine for any kind of web scripting, but not suitable
for parts that require a lot of calculations/code. These parts
usually are written as a PHP extension in native code, or as external
native applications called from inside PHP (which is slower than an
PHP extension due to overhead). Your code ends up as a native module,
which gets loaded into PHP and then is available to the PHP language
as an extension.
Just to give you an example: Imagine a web application where you
wish to enable to user to download a PDF version of some dynamically
created document. Imagine server-side generated charts and graphs
based on data from your SQL database - those are things requiring
a lot of CPU power. You don't write the components for that in a
scripting language, because it would be a resource hog, you write
it in native code, and script its actions using PHP.
When looking at a PHP RAD IDE, there really are two types of
components - one side would be user interaction components,
IOW visual controls for the user that possibly are connected to
the PHP backend using AJAX etc. The other side are the components
running on the server.
Enabling compiling Delphi code as such "backend components" would
open up a lot of possibilities - not only resource intensivity
tasks could be done in this, but also you could take your existing
business logic already written in a clean OOP language like Object
Pascal, compile it as PHP extension, and then just glue a PHP
web frontend on top of it.
Existing bindings both for creating such backend-components for PHP
and using PHP backend-components inside Delphi already exist
through the PHP4Delphi project (which also works with CrossKylix):
http://members.chello.be/ws36637/php4delphi.html
> Re cross-platform Delphi and the comments about CLX (VCL for Linux) in the
> paper. I'd like to see more discussion and thoughts around CLX and Qt and
> Gtk... what would a second generation CLX look like? Could it be completely
> open source and community developed with CodeGear support? How long would it
> take to develop? For CLX we did a mechanical port of VCL, then "hand wired"
> it from GDI to Qt - it was very manual and time consuming, took a loooong
> time.
QT has been a pretty good choice and still is. This mostly is a license issue,
as
you guys had to obtain a redistribution license for your customers
back then. Several ports of CLX to recent QT versions already have
been done by members of the Kylix community. Those never got published
because it would violate your CLX copyrights.
The community behind this very well would be able to do this on it's
own with getting the required support from CodeGear.
But what's important: What really should be done is to single-source
this fully. The CLX should be merged into the VCL with the help
from the community. VCL Components then would simply get a platform
mark that tells the developer, the compiler and the IDE which platforms
(VCL Win32, VCL.NET, VCL for QT/Linux) a component is compatible with.
You are more or less going this route for quite some time now -
due to the move to Linux and then to .NET the VCL now can pretty
easily get different GUI library plugged into it.
In the long run, this could go as far as the IDE telling your "Your
current project contains the following components that are only
compatible with Win32: ... If you wish to enable compilation of
this project for a Linux or XY target, replace them".
This would also speed the adoption of the system by component
vendors - they would not have to create a dedicated codebase for
a CLX version of their components, they simply could add support
for other compilation targets of their components by implementing
platform-specific code for those targets and then enabling the
platform mark for those in their component.
Simon
Thomas Miller
Universal Object Pascal Library
After doing the ground work for such a beast, the way to go is with
namespaces. This way you can have anything you want. For example,
clx/delphi/delphi12/*
clx/delphi/uopl/*
clx/delphi/gtk/*
clx/delphi/qt/*
clx/delphi/chrome/*
clx/delphi/aspnet2/*
clx/delphi/carbon/*
etc. (fyi, I think carbon is the native stuff for Mac OS X, or does it
have a new name).
With conditional compiling, I can choose which library branch I want to
base my exe on.
The uopl could be the beta / bleeding edge of the fully tested supported
version of the VCL shipped with Delphi (in this example delphi12). Much
like you have Fedora and openSuse for RedHat and Novell Suse Enterprise.
Base it on a license like Qt, free for open source use, pay a license
for commercial. Obviously, you get a full use license if you buy
Delphi, but you would still make money off those entities using Lazarus
if they develop commercial software.
Using the method above, you should be able in a not to distant future,
rebuild Delphi for all of these platforms.
Unfortunately I gave up when there were to many issues with needing to
change private stuff in a lot of the base classes. Which means I would
be using copyrighted stuff, which was a non starter.
--
maramirezc
Sandeep Chandra <sande...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Are you guys creating a new tool or have you come to some sort of
>agreement with qadram to sell their tool QStudio. They were to release
>QStudio in December but so far haven't heard anything from them.
>
>Regards
>
>Sandeep
Maybe CodeGear, (YES, "Codegear" not "Borland"), has nothing to do with Qadram.
Maybe Microsoft bought Qadram so nobody uses, as a potential competitor. (I hear that has happen before)
maramirezc
"Don't ask questions people may not like to answer"
Ingvar Nilsen
> We will be
Doing it right!!
If this ain't music in my ears, nothing is!
Ingvar Nilsen
> The main point is: PHP is a scripting language and not really fast.
> It's perfectly fine for any kind of web scripting, but not suitable
> for parts that require a lot of calculations/code. These parts
> usually are written as a PHP extension in native code, or as external
> native applications called from inside PHP (which is slower than an
> PHP extension due to overhead). Your code ends up as a native module,
> which gets loaded into PHP and then is available to the PHP language
> as an extension.
So why use PHP when I have ASP.Net?
Gbenga Abimbola
Regarding Michael Swindell response, I will definitely
try CodeGear PHP IDE (if and only if, the price is right).
Please borrow from Delphi's IDE's style.
"Michael Swindell \(CodeGear\)" <michael.nos...@borland.com> wrote:
>> I guess my biggest issue with this is, again, focus. Borland is going
>> to chase the yet another thing, PHP in this case, while Delphi is
>> going to be neglected.
>
>You'll find that we are increasinig focus on Delphi, native in particular -
>and we will also be coming out with PHP products without detracting from
>Delphi. In the day's of Kylix, for example, a significant portion of the
>Delphi team was taken off of Delphi to build the Linux ver - same with
>Delphi for .NET we had to take developers off of native Delphi to build the
>.NET versions - as CodeGear we're not taking that type of approach. Native
>Delphi and C++Builder development will be done year round and we're
>increasing our focus and support over past years - Delphi and VCL will be
>the "center of the universe" for CodeGear RAD products.
>
>
Michael Swindell (CodeGear)
From my perspective, having built my own PHP websites and ASP.NET websites
over the past several years
ASP.NET is more "heavyweight", but also has more Enterprise capable
features, more mature "modern" tools like VS and Delphi, and more commercial
addons and component support, and in 2.0 more "site" oriented features.
PHP is more ubiquitous, lightweight, tons of great open source modules and
code, and can deploy to any LAMP stack on Linux, BSD, Windows, MacOS,
Solaris, etc.
-m
Ingvar Nilsen
> ASP.NET is more "heavyweight", but also has more Enterprise capable
> features, more mature "modern" tools like VS and Delphi, and more
> commercial addons and component support, and in 2.0 more "site"
> oriented features.
>
> PHP is more ubiquitous, lightweight, tons of great open source
> modules and code, and can deploy to any LAMP stack on Linux, BSD,
> Windows, MacOS, Solaris, etc.
Ok, this is what I believed too. For me, it is ASP.Net then.
Simon Kissel
> So why use PHP when I have ASP.Net?
Choice.
My reason why we use PHP in our company is: I can easily get
heaps of web developers, even remote part-time workers for that,
and most of our IT infrastructure is Linux-based too, therefore
the knowledge already is there. It's also extremely easy to
do "quick hacks" when you need them - a ready-to-run LAMP
installation is done within 20 minutes, without any kind of
delays like having to purchase another Windows license, and
for small tasks, you can quickly put up stuff.
I just had the situation last week: I wanted a Subversion
server for my team. So I contracted a cheap Linux guy, told him
what I needed, put another Server box in our server room,
allowed SSH access for his IP through the firewall, inserted
a CentOS Server CD, and went away. Some time later I had
a Subversion server running, with a customized management
web frontend hacked together in PHP. It just worked, does
the job, and I didn't had to take any care about it.
Other than that: As a contract web developer, things are
usually much easier if you are able to adapt to an existing
IT infrastructure.
That's what we do with our products - if our customer says
"we currently do all our stuff in ASP.NET and would like
your product to be integrated" they'll get the Windows version,
if they say "our community is LAMP-based", they'll get the
Linux versions. They always are extremely happy that we don't
try to push them into a platform, but answer "we'll go the
route you feel most comfortable with".
It's quite an advantage if you don't have to force your
customer to move to a different world he does not feel
home in.
For a developer I guess it would be the best thing to be
home in both worlds, so you can pass the advantage of being
able to choose platforms over to your customers.
Simon
Anthony J. Maske
"maramirezc" <maram...@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:45cb7b4f$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
>
> Maybe CodeGear, (YES, "Codegear" not "Borland"), has nothing to do with
> Qadram.
>
> Maybe Microsoft bought Qadram so nobody uses, as a potential competitor.
> (I hear that has happen before)
>
If you can't beat'm... buy'm...
chapulin
The C# and ASP.NET funs paint the esenario as MSSQL is the only real option,
in some cases the webhost provider would not even let you use code-behind,
and windows hosting is far more expensive than the 4.95 Linux webhosting.
chapulin
>
> MS SQL Express will cover your needs
>
In a local machine yes but it has its limitation for deployment.
Tony Caduto
>> I guess my biggest issue with this is, again, focus. Borland is going
>> to chase the yet another thing, PHP in this case, while Delphi is
>> going to be neglected.
>
> You'll find that we are increasinig focus on Delphi, native in particular -
> and we will also be coming out with PHP products without detracting from
> Delphi. In the day's of Kylix, for example, a significant portion of the
> Delphi team was taken off of Delphi to build the Linux ver - same with
> Delphi for .NET we had to take developers off of native Delphi to build the
> .NET versions - as CodeGear we're not taking that type of approach. Native
> Delphi and C++Builder development will be done year round and we're
> increasing our focus and support over past years - Delphi and VCL will be
> the "center of the universe" for CodeGear RAD products.
>
>
That sounds good, but I really hope you guys learned from the
ridiculous pricing of Kylix when it was first released.
I am all for the PHP thing as long as you guys don't price yourself
right out of the market.
Try and keep the price of the pro version low :-) So mere mortals will
be able to afford it.
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of Lightning Admin for PostgreSQL and MySQL
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Tony Caduto
> You have REALLY a lot of Free Open Source Products everywhere.
>
Yes, but they all suck.....
Show me one example of a free and open source product that has a PHP
form designer that would work along the lines of Intraweb?
A Delphi PHP is a sweet idea, there are more PHP installs out there than
Asp.net and Java combined. Almost all ISPs offer PHP and just about
every linux distro comes with a super easy to setup LAMP (MySQL based)
or LAPP (PostgreSQL based) stack.
Tony Caduto
>
> I can tell you that it won't be the case that we'll do Delphi and only
> Delphi. As we grow, we'll be expanding into new markets. We can do
> this without "neglecting" Delphi.
>
Sweet, I am all for a PHP product and think it would be a great move,
however please try to learn from the disastrous pricing that occurred
with Kylix when it was first released. Don't price yourself right out
of the market.
A PHP IDE will have to be affordable or people are not going to buy it.
I myself would be willing to pay up to 249 for a full featured pro
version without problems, however if you guys price it at 999, you can
forget it.
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of Lightning Admin for PostgreSQL and MySQL.
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Jolyon Smith
> I myself would be willing to pay up to 249 for a full featured pro
> version without problems, however if you guys price it at 999, you can
> forget it.
It's deja vu all over again.
;)
(Pssst - if Delphi PHP __IS_ QStudio, Qadram were going to be making
that available F.O.C and according to their web site, still will - cheap
enough for ya?)
:D
--
Jolyon Smith
Say, do any of you guys know how to Madison?
Tony Caduto
I would love to do more
> Kylix, it just has to be a sound business move that doesn't hurt our Delphi
> and C++ users/products - and Simon brought up some good suggestions, and we
> have some ideas that are interesting that might solve some of the "issues"
> with Kylix.
>
Kylix was and still is great for server daemon apps, particularly with
TCP/IP.
I built a daemon with Kylix years ago that sends instant pop ups from a
apache upload CGI (also built with Kylix) to clients running a small
Delphi tray icon app. The thing has been up and running 24x7 for years now.
I never used it for GUI stuff because of the insane deployment
requirments, but for IM servers etc it kicks ass!!!
Tony Caduto
> chapulin wrote:
>
>>> ASP.NET is far more productive than PHP, IMHO.
>>>
>> The problem is that ASP.NET webhosting is expensive using MSSQL.
>
> MS SQL Express will cover your needs
>
Why even bother with MS SQL Express, it's just a crippled
version of MS SQL Server and limits you to running on a expensive MS
server platform.
And it's generally overkill for a web application.
MySQL is generally fine, and if you need more heavy hitter features
PostgreSQL fits the bill very well and it runs on any Linux/Unix and win32.
Just my opinion on that matter.
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of Lightning Admin for PostgreSQL and MySQL
Tony Caduto
>> MS SQL Express will cover your needs
>>
> In a local machine yes but it has its limitation for deployment.
>
>
I would whole heartedly recommend PostgreSQL over MS SQL server
any day of the week for use with a web server and anything else for that
matter. Also PostgreSQL has a excellent .net data provider so you can
use it as easily in ASP.net as you can in PHP.
Check it out here:
http://npgsql.projects.postgresql.org/
--
Tony Caduto
> Who says you have to use MSSQL?
>
http://npgsql.projects.postgresql.org/
It even uses the PostgreSQL wire protocol internally and does not need
libpq.dll or any dependencies.
A lot of people don't realize that for 99.9% of the things they need to
do PostgreSQL will do the job just as good as M$ SQL server, and yes
PostgreSQL has a native win32 version that ROCKS :-)
PostgreSQL also does not limit you the way the crippled MS SQL Express
does. MS SQL Express is just a marketing gimmick to eventually lure you
into buying their overpriced SQL Server product.
Tony Caduto
that has the visual design elements that are available in VS.net or BDS.
Anyway from my experience PHP is more productive because I can deploy it
anywhere and it is extremely easy to use and there are TONS of examples
etc out there.
Ingvar Nilsen
> Ingvar Nilsen wrote:
> > chapulin wrote:
> >
> > > > ASP.NET is far more productive than PHP, IMHO.
> > > >
> > > The problem is that ASP.NET webhosting is expensive using MSSQL.
> >
> > MS SQL Express will cover your needs
>
> Why even bother with MS SQL Express, it's just a crippled
> version of MS SQL Server and limits you to running on a expensive MS
> server platform.
Price and technology are two different matters.
For some, the price is very important, even crucial, for others it
plays a minor role, it can be a non-issue.
This is why I dislike PC Magazine tests where they have a "winner" and
one of the criteria is the price. Hey, I want to know what product is
the best, period. I am old enough to then decide which product fits my
wallet and business.
> And it's generally overkill for a web application.
Agreed, unless you have a thousand hits per minute.
> MySQL is generally fine, and if you need more heavy hitter features
> PostgreSQL fits the bill very well and it runs on any Linux/Unix and
> win32.
>
> Just my opinion on that matter.
What matters a lot to me is having an admin GUI for the database that
has a good productivity factor. I have used Firebird/Interbase, besides
of MS SQL, and the IB Expert fits the bill in that camp.
Tony Caduto
> It's deja vu all over again.
>
Lets hope not.
It will be interesting to see if the Delphi PHP thing is the
QStudio studio product.
--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
Home of Lightning Admin for PostgreSQL and MySQL
Tony Caduto
>> And it's generally overkill for a web application.
> Agreed, unless you have a thousand hits per minute.
PostgreSQL can handle that with ease :-)
Probably not out of the box as the config is setup for
a low end server, but with some minor tweaking PostgreSQL can
scale very well with lots of connections, actually much much
better than MySQL can. MySQL performance starts to go down the
tubes with large amounts of concurrent user sessions.
As for Admin tools, check out my website :-)
You should really check out PostgreSQL, I think it's overall far
superior to Firebird/Interbase in all regards.
EnterpriseDB is also available and offers full PostgreSQL compatibility
plus the ability to run Oracle functions/procedures and packages.
Later,
--
Ingvar Nilsen
> As for Admin tools, check out my website :-)
ok ok, you have *almost* convinced me :-)
Marco van de Voort
>
> A Delphi PHP is a sweet idea, there are more PHP installs out there than
> Asp.net and Java combined. Almost all ISPs offer PHP and just about
> every linux distro comes with a super easy to setup LAMP (MySQL based)
> or LAPP (PostgreSQL based) stack.
Do you think the avg PHP code (and the language itself) is structured enough
to build a framework like a VCL (+ Designer) on top of?
The whole thing with PHP is that it allows non-programmers to thinker
indefinitely for pretty much free.
An IDE over PHP doesn't make it ASP.NET.