Sales of New Delphi Licenses
J O Holloway
United States, per version. It should be a simple chart.
ver units sold
D1:
D2:
D3:
D4:
D5:
D6:
D7:
D8:
That's all I'm asking for. It's really just a point of interest on my part,
although I must say that the vigor with which Borland is _not_ responding
is quite telling.
The reason I ask for the numbers of new units sold should be obvious: it's
the most telling indicator of the product's real growth (or decline).
Revenue reflects a number of factors, including price increases and
discounts, which make it tough to guage the real trend in usage. The only
way to know if Delphi is growing its base of users is to count the number of
licenses sold.
If Borland wants to post the number of new licenses sold, or would prefer to
post the total number (new and upgrade) per version, that would also be
satisfactory. If Borland wants to post for the US & Canada combined, that's
also satisfactory. What really counts (to me), in answering the question,
is that Borland show the trendline of _units_ sold per version of Delphi
in my part of the world.
I'm really glad Borland's overall revenue is going up, it's just that
_that_ isn't of interest to me.
Also, a private note to Kaster: in case you were wondering, I don't think
you're a liar; I don't even know you. However, the issue isn't about lies;
it's just about information. I believe the Delphi community in the US is
deeply interested in the trendline of the number of new Delphi licenses
sold; that kind of information impacts us all.
![Craig Stuntz [TeamB]'s profile photo](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a/default-user=s40-c)
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> That's all I'm asking for.
You've been told several times that you're not going to get it. Do
you not understand this? Let me try and put it in very unambiguous
words:
Borland has never publicly published the information you ask for. The
people you are asking -- i.e., the Borland representatives who
occasionally post to this newsgroup -- are not allowed to make
exceptions to this rule.
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Please read and follow Borland's rules for the user of their
news server: http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> I dunno Craig but recently you seem to have become very angry in these
> newsgroups.
No anger was felt or (intentionally, anyway) implied. I just felt the
need to be very, very clear as the question has been accurately
answered in response to the same question from the same person several
times in the past.
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Useful articles about InterBase development:
http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/category/21.aspx
Kurt Bilde
> All I'm asking for is for the number of _new_ Delphi licenses sold in the
> United States, per version. It should be a simple chart.
turn your question round why on earth should you go out in public and
tell how much you sell of a given product? A serious firm will never do
so!!!!
Your personal interest doesn't count - you must as the rest of us live
with the information releases to the shareholders!
-Kurt
Bob Dawson
> I'm really glad Borland's overall revenue is going up, it's just that
> _that_ isn't of interest to me.
It escapes me why answering your specific question should be of any interest
to Borland, especially since, as you admit, it's just an idle 'point of
interest' to you.
And it really is idle curiousity. If you intended to buy Borland (or a
significant chunk thereof) then I could understand your need for a more
detailed look at Borland's books--that would probably be arranged through
investor relations under the appropriate legal structures for good faith
bargaining. But as a developer I certainly don't need such knowledge, and
neither do you.
Delphi is and continues to be a profitable product to Borland, and continues
to evolve both with the MS platform (win32, .NET) and in accordance with
evolving development approaches and principals (ALM).
bobD
PhilO
If you go to the conference you will hear numbers from time to time. I have
read that D8 is outselling all other releases and I think I heard from some
informed source at Borcon that D7 did over half a millon copies.
David Smith
> All I'm asking for is for the number of _new_ Delphi licenses sold in the
> United States, per version. It should be a simple chart.
> That's all I'm asking for. It's really just a point of interest on my part,
> although I must say that the vigor with which Borland is _not_ responding
> is quite telling.
The companys are in no obligation to tell this information and many don't.
So please, just drop the subject.
> Also, a private note to Kaster: in case you were wondering, I don't think
There's nothing private about this note.
David
J O Holloway
Um, ok fellas, I can take a hint.
Borland doesn't want to talk, and you guys don't want to know anyway.
William Meyer
> That's all I'm asking for. It's really just a point of interest on
> my part, although I must say that the vigor with which Borland is
> not responding is quite telling.
Not telling in the least, so far as your inference is concerned.
Borland has never, to my recollection, provided unit sales figures --
never in the 21 years since TP 1.0 hit the streets. In what way do you
construe that the mere continuance of a long-standing policy releals
anything?
--
Bill
--------
"I cannot under-take to lay my finger on that article in the
Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the
object of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -- James
Madison
William Meyer
> LOL
>
> Um, ok fellas, I can take a hint.
Good. ;)
> Borland doesn't want to talk, and you guys don't want to know anyway.
Oh, most of us would love to know, but many of us have been using
Borland tools for longer than most employees have been with Borland,
and we know from experience that the numbers will not be published.
Kyle Cordes
news:40e8...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> significant chunk thereof) then I could understand your need for a more
> detailed look at Borland's books--that would probably be arranged through
> investor relations under the appropriate legal structures for good faith
> bargaining. But as a developer I certainly don't need such knowledge, and
> neither do you.
Actually, that kind of information would be of considerable value for third
party tool developers - it is the fundamental starting point to size that
market; of course I also understand why Borland doesn't release such
information.
It's possible that for a select few outsiders with hefty NDAs, such
information is available after all.
--
[ Kyle Cordes * ky...@kylecordes.com * http://kylecordes.com ]
[ Better processes, better design, better software. Java, ]
[ Delphi, BDE Alternatives Guide, Enterprise apps, and more ]
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
> Borland doesn't want to talk, and you guys don't want to know anyway.
FWIW, I'd like to know (out of sheer curiosity). OTOH, I also
understand why they don't release such figures.
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
Lauchlan M
> turn your question round why on earth should you go out in public and
> tell how much you sell of a given product? A serious firm will never do
> so!!!!
Why not? They publish quarterly financial results, why do you think volumes
of product is such a big deal?
Lauchlan M
Bob Dawson
>
> Actually, that kind of information would be of considerable value for
third
> party tool developers - it is the fundamental starting point to size that
> market;
Hi Kyle.
Actually I'm not sure even about that, in light of JK's remark that the
proportion of Delphi user's who actually buy third party components is
relatively small. Market size information might be more accurately estimated
via conversations with other 3rd party vendors than on any numbers Borland
would provide.
In any case, for a small 1-2 person start-up I'd think you'd have to set
pricing based on a realistic competitor analysis more than on a potential
market size basis--and not quit your day job. :-)
bobD
Derek Davidson
> Why not? They publish quarterly financial results,
I think that's because they're obliged to, as they are a public listed
company.
> why do you think
> volumes of product is such a big deal?
It can give your competition a lot of extra information that could be
used against you.
--
Derek Davidson
http://www.enterpriseblue.com
For the world's EASIEST Help Desk software
Now Verified for Microsoft Windows Server 2003
Derek Davidson
> Actually I'm not sure even about that, in light of JK's remark that
> the proportion of Delphi user's who actually buy third party
> components is relatively small.
Even more important I would say. If a 3rd party usually sells to 1% of
primary product owners then knowing whether 100K or 1M of primary
product was sold could be vital to just survive.
I've worked with a well known and respected 3rd party component
developer and trust me - it's a TOUGH life.
> Market size information might be more
> accurately estimated via conversations with other 3rd party vendors
> than on any numbers Borland would provide.
If this were true, then I could tell you what a couple of them say:
Don't bother. The market has diminished too far. Look elsewhere.
Derek Davidson
> I have
> read that D8 is outselling all other releases ...
I got to thinking about this and you know, it makes sense. But the
reasons why are perhaps not so good (from Borland's perspective).
D2 through D7 are Win32 based. The differences from D5 on have been
minimal. A number of people expressed that they felt no need to change.
D8 is new in that it targets .NET. Borland has no other offering on
that platform (other than the somewhat quirky C#B - and as we know
there are many fewer Borland C developers than Delphi developers) and
so if you want .NET, you have but one choice.
Add in to this that D8 comes (or came - not sure if it's still true)
with D7 and now you have a reason for those that were vacillating over
D8 (that did not have D7) to 'take a chance'.
In other words, a proportion of D8 customers may be because Borland has
no other (Delphi) alternative and another proportion may be because D8
came free with an upgrade to D7.
So the important question is: How many REAL D8 customers are there?
And I bet you a dollar to a doughnut that even Borland don't know that.
![Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjWU6JIYTx6kJCxK1P9qy-0IkTLb3QUOOaGRszn1aPNSjVyUm9M=s40-c)
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
> All I'm asking for is for the number of new Delphi licenses sold in
> the United States, per version. It should be a simple chart.
And you won't get it. Borland does not publish those data.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"Did you ever walk in a room and forget why you walked in? I think
that's how dogs spend their lives." -- Sue Murphy.
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
No one said we don't want to know. They just don't say these things, and
never have, and I guess it is futile asking.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"I am become death, shatterer of worlds."
- Robert J. Oppenheimer (1904-1967) (citing from the Bhagavad Gita,
after witnessing the world's first nuclear explosion)
David Smith
> So the important question is: How many REAL D8 customers are there?
Hey, come on. This must be your all time low. Now you are saying that in
reality the people who bought Delphi 8 aren't actual customers ?!?!
<Sigh> I don't want to know what you have in store for D9...
David
Wayne Niddery [TeamB]
>
> Add in to this that D8 comes (or came - not sure if it's still true)
> with D7 and now you have a reason for those that were vacillating over
> D8 (that did not have D7) to 'take a chance'.
>
> In other words, a proportion of D8 customers may be because Borland
> has no other (Delphi) alternative and another proportion may be
> because D8 came free with an upgrade to D7.
>
> So the important question is: How many REAL D8 customers are there?
> And I bet you a dollar to a doughnut that even Borland don't know
> that.
"D8" did not come with D7. A preview .Net compiler came with D7. These do
not and could not count as sold units of D8 since D8 as a product was still
well over a year in the future then.
--
Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com)
RADBooks: http://www.logicfundamentals.com/RADBooks.html
SpaceShipOne; GovernmentZero
Bob Dawson
> owners then knowing whether 100K or 1M of primary
> product was sold could be vital to just survive.
I still think comparative/competitive pricing and not quitting your day job
is the best advice available--those are real. The 'thoeretical' market
represented by total Dephi sales is not.
> I've worked with a well known and respected 3rd party component
> developer and trust me - it's a TOUGH life.
No doubts.
> If this were true, then I could tell you what a couple of them say:
> Don't bother. The market has diminished too far. Look elsewhere.
Don't know that the market has actually diminished so much as being put into
stasis during the win32/.net platform transition--people being uncertain
whether it still makes sense to buy new win32 components. Release of Delphi
9 may revive interest, but of course that's simply 'theoretical' on my part
as well.
bobD
Bob Dawson
> So the important question is: How many REAL D8 customers are there?
> And I bet you a dollar to a doughnut that even Borland don't know that.
They'd know how many installed and registered each of the two (D7/D8)
packages. To my knowledge there's no +automatic+ way to tell actual relative
use--but then Borland may research that issue separately--it's not something
apt to appear on their website (or in this forum).
bobD.
Derek Davidson
> Now you are saying that in reality the people who bought Delphi 8
> aren't actual customers ?!?!
One of the things I was trying to say is that Borland don't know how
many people bought D8 purely for D8 and how many bought it for D7 and
would 'take a look' at D8. (It being better value than simply upgrading
from D5 or D6 to D7).
Derek Davidson
> "D8" did not come with D7.
Badly worded by me. What I was trying to say was that D7 comes with D8.
Derek Davidson
> I didn't read Derek's post as saying that, but rather that D8 had D7
> in with it.
Jake! We found common ground! You're right, man :-)
> But come to think of it, I guess your's is a viable
> alternative interpretation.
Yeah - after reading what I'd written, I'm inclined to agree.
Derek Davidson
> It is not easy from your post to figure out the exact definition of a
> "real" D8 customer. Is it someone who buys D8 simply because they
> want to do .NET in Delphi?
I mean someone who bought D8 just for D8 (and to whom D7 was either
unnecessary, or simply an added bonus)
da...@nowhere.com
Thomas Edison
<snip>
FYI, your lines are wrapping at 209 characters.
Regards
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> D8 is new in that it targets .NET. Borland has no other offering on
> that platform (other than the somewhat quirky C#B
This is incorrect. Together ControlCenter supports C#, and there is
even a special Together edition for VS.NET. IIRC ControlCenter
included C# support before C#Builder shipped.
Together is a great tool. Using Together, today, you can do things
which Microsoft promised for Whidbey, and then slipped to Orcas.
And these are just the IDEs -- altogether Borland has eight products
supporting .NET:
http://bdn.borland.com/article/0,1410,32063,00.html
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Everything You Need to Know About InterBase Character Sets:
http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/articles/403.aspx
Derek Davidson
> This is incorrect.
Clearly I should have been more precise though I thought it obvious I
was referring to an app dev tool with compiler.
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> Craig Stuntz [TeamB] wrote:
>
> > This is incorrect.
>
> Clearly I should have been more precise though I thought it obvious I
> was referring to an app dev tool with compiler.
How is my example, Together ControlCenter, any different than yours,
C#Builder, in that respect?
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Please read and follow Borland's rules for the user of their
news server: http://info.borland.com/newsgroups/guide.html
Derek Davidson
> How is my example, Together ControlCenter, any different than yours,
> C#Builder, in that respect?
How do I compile an application with Together ControlCenter?
AFAICS, Together Control Center is a Design tool (heck, Borland even
have it under Solutions | Product | Design in their site main menu)
that relies on a compiler within a different product (such as Delphi, C
Bulder etc, etc).
David Clegg
> Together ControlCenter supports C#, and there is
> even a special Together edition for VS.NET.
How does ControlCenter differ from the VS.NET Add-in? I was going to
get my boss to purchase a few Together for VS.NET licenses, but would
be there be any merit in attempting to talk him into ControlCenter
instead?
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg_at_ebetonline_dot_com
Vote 1 http://cc.borland.com/codecentral/ccweb.exe/listing?id=21489 :-)
Now supports Google Groups searching with Dyna-extend(tm) technology!
Quality Central. The best way to bug Borland about bugs.
http://qc.borland.com
"This donut has purple in the middle. Purple is a fruit!" - Homer
Simpson
Wayne Niddery [TeamB]
>
> I didn't read Derek's post as saying that, but rather that D8 had D7
> alternative interpretation.
No, I think I just misread Derek's post, I replied again to that post.
--
Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com)
RADBooks: http://www.logicfundamentals.com/RADBooks.html
"Democracy, without the guarantee of liberty, is merely a method of
selecting tyrants." - Alan Nitikman
Wayne Niddery [TeamB]
> Derek Davidson wrote:
>>
>> Add in to this that D8 comes (or came - not sure if it's still true)
>> with D7 and now you have a reason for those that were vacillating
>> over D8 (that did not have D7) to 'take a chance'.
>>
>> In other words, a proportion of D8 customers may be because Borland
>> has no other (Delphi) alternative and another proportion may be
>> because D8 came free with an upgrade to D7.
Sorry Derek, I misread. I now realize you're talking about the D8 SKUs that
come with D7.
There are several D8 SKUs and only some of them come with D7 - directed at
those either never having had Delphi before or upgrading from a version less
than D7. Other SKUs do not include D7, so its only a subset of all SKUs
where there could be any question. Also note that D7 SKUs are still
available, so anyone really not wanting .Net can still buy just D7. Given
that, it is fair to assume anyone buying D8 with D7 included is at least
interested in checking out .Net, whether or not they have any actual .Net
development plans yet. Therefore it's perfectly fair to consider all these
as genuine D8 sales.
--
Wayne Niddery - Logic Fundamentals, Inc. (www.logicfundamentals.com)
RADBooks: http://www.logicfundamentals.com/RADBooks.html
"True peace is not the absence of tension, but the presence of
justice." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
> > FYI, your lines are wrapping at 209 characters.
>
> Actually, they were not wrapping at all. I've been unit testing
> settings.
Can you unit test in the test groups, please? <g>
--
Dave Nottage [TeamB]
J O Holloway
Look, Jake, you ever tell the cops, and the jig will be up for you!
"Captain Jake" <johnjac76[nospam]@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:40e8cdc4$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> J O Holloway <misterh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
<40e8548e$1...@newsgroups.borland.com>
> > That's all I'm asking for. It's really just a point of interest on my
part,
> > although I must say that the vigor with which Borland is _not_
responding
> > is quite telling.
>
> That's an odd type of argument. It is like my assuming you have some very
interesting reason for not telling me why on the night of July 2nd you were
not standing innocently on the corner of 5th and
> Main. Must have been doing something you shouldn't have.
>
> --
> ***Free Your Mind***
>
> Posted with JSNewsreader-BETA 0.9.3.155
>
>
Derek Davidson
> Sorry Derek, I misread.
Not a problem. When I re-read I can easily see your interpretation as
well.
> There are several D8 SKUs and only some of them come with D7
I didn't know this. Thanks for the info.
Don
> I got to thinking about this and you know, it makes sense. But the
> reasons why are perhaps not so good (from Borland's perspective).
Perhaps? Derek, you surprise me.
> D2 through D7 are Win32 based. The differences from D5 on have been
> minimal.
Do you have evidence to back up this claim, or is this just another of
your wild opinions?
Don
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> How does ControlCenter differ from the VS.NET Add-in? I was going to
> get my boss to purchase a few Together for VS.NET licenses, but would
> be there be any merit in attempting to talk him into ControlCenter
> instead?
I'm not sure, having never used the VS.NET edition, but you can
download a free trial of both products:
http://www.borland.com/products/downloads/download_together.html
That's what I'd do if I were choosing.
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> Craig Stuntz [TeamB] wrote:
>
> > How is my example, Together ControlCenter, any different than yours,
> > C#Builder, in that respect?
>
> How do I compile an application with Together ControlCenter?
Project->Make Project.
> AFAICS, Together Control Center is a Design tool
I guess you haven't looked at the product, then. I find the info
about Together on Borland's site to be quite uninformative, but a
little time with the product itself turns out to be quite a bit more
productive than reading PDF brochures, and the demo is free. If you're
using VS.NET I'd strongly recommend getting the demo version of
Together for VS.NET, as it's a great deal, and give you the kind of
tools today which Microsoft *might* ship in Orcas, maybe.
Together does a lot of things, including Design and code editing. It
is intended to be a single tool to support multiple parts of the
application lifecycle. When you install Together ControlCenter, you
are asked to specify which role you (the user) will be performing, and
Together configures itself to best suit your needs.
> (heck, Borland even
> have it under Solutions | Product | Design in their site main menu)
It *does* have very strong design features -- it's the best UML editor
that Borland produces, by far. But it is also, by just about any
definition of the word, an IDE.
The biggest limitation of ControlCenter as a C# IDE is that it lacks a
visual UI designer (for C# -- it has one for Java). This makes it a
non-starter for many developers. However, it's not an issue for me (my
C# work right now doesn't involve any kind of UI), and folks who need
this can use the VS.NET version, which is much cheaper anyway.
> that relies on a compiler within a different product (such as Delphi,
> C Bulder etc, etc).
Once more, ControlCenter is no different than your example of
C#Builder in this respect. The compiler comes with the .NET framework,
not the IDE. Same thing for ControlCenter's Java support.
John Kaster (Borland)
> I guess you haven't looked at the product, then. I find the info
> about Together on Borland's site to be quite uninformative, but a
> little time with the product itself turns out to be quite a bit more
> productive than reading PDF brochures, and the demo is free.
This has been very helpful to people as well. 4 animated tutorials on
TVS 2, in order:
http://bdn.borland.com/article/0,1410,32395,00.html
http://bdn.borland.com/article/0,1410,32396,00.html
http://bdn.borland.com/article/0,1410,32397,00.html
http://bdn.borland.com/article/0,1410,32399,00.html
--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, http://bdn.borland.com
BorCon2004, all info in one place! http://info.borland.com/conf2004
Features and bugs: http://qc.borland.com
Get source: http://cc.borland.com
Unofficial information overload: http://blogs.borland.com
Derek Davidson
>> AFAICS, Together Control Center is a Design tool
>
> I guess you haven't looked at the product, then.
You're absoultely right. I just read the marketing blurb. I should
know better by now, eh? :-)
> Together does ...
<lots of interesting stuff snipped>
Well, you certainly do make it sound appealing.
>> that relies on a compiler within a different product (such as
>> Delphi, C Bulder etc, etc).
>
> Once more, ControlCenter is no different than your example of
> C#Builder in this respect.
Yes agreed - I see where you're coming from now.
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> This has been very helpful to people as well. 4 animated tutorials on
> TVS 2, in order:
Yep. They're even linked from the Together for VS.NET page (via the
Demo link), although I missed it when I looked at that page several
times.
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
How to ask questions the smart way:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Rick Carter
>> Actually, they were not wrapping at all. I've been unit testing
>> settings.
>
>Can you unit test in the test groups, please? <g>
But if he did that, we would have never had the benefit of seeing the
"hammer my point home 500 times" feature of his newsreader! <g>
FWIW, I'm also a bit annoyed scrolling through the long lines.
(BTW, Marco's web interface has been known to occasionally post a message
twice. If that happens this time, it wasn't intentional on my part.)
Rick Carter
cart...@despammed.com
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group
--- posted by geoForum on http://delphi.newswhat.com
Brion L. Webster
> All I'm asking for is for the number of new Delphi licenses
> sold in the United States, per version. It should be a simple
> chart.
I think it would be very interesting information to know, both
personally and for a whole crowd of folks. And I think there's an
easy way to get those answers, quite definitively (or at least as
definitively as Borland itself knows).
Call up investor relations. There's a link from the web site. If
you have any credible hope of finding out such confidential,
priviledged company information, your broker probably knows the
people on the other end of the phone (better yet, their
boss)personally.
Just watch out how large your % holdings get - after a certain
amount it triggers SEC oversight I'd rather not be subject to. Of
course, in order to get the info, you'll probably have to exceed
that by quite a bit.
-Brion
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
> Derek Davidson wrote:
>
> > So the important question is: How many REAL D8 customers are there?
>
> Hey, come on. This must be your all time low. Now you are saying that
> in reality the people who bought Delphi 8 aren't actual customers ?!?!
Sure. And those who downloaded the eval version are. <g>
Dunno, if I buy a product for a few hundred or thousand bucks, I'd like
to be considered a customer. <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"The most overlooked advantage of owning a computer is that if they
foul up there's no law against whacking them around a bit."
-- Eric Porterfield.
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
> David Smith wrote:
>
> > Now you are saying that in reality the people who bought Delphi 8
> > aren't actual customers ?!?!
>
> One of the things I was trying to say is that Borland don't know how
> many people bought D8 purely for D8 and how many bought it for D7 and
> would 'take a look' at D8.
Then why didn't these people buy D7 long before the deal with D8 was
known? I think D7 is out for quite some time already.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them." -- Albert Einstein
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
> "D8" did not come with D7. A preview .Net compiler came with D7. These
> do not and could not count as sold units of D8 since D8 as a product
> was still well over a year in the future then.
He meant that instead of D7 coming with D8, he considers it D7 with D8 in
the box. Funny way to look at it, and I doubt many people bought D8 to
actually get the added D7.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"You have to stay in shape. My grandmother, she started walking five
miles a day when she was 60. She's 97 today and we don't know where she
is!" - Ellen DeGeneres.
J O Holloway
news:xn0dkgk1imld6t00o-
> He meant that instead of D7 coming with D8, he considers it D7 with D8 in
> the box. Funny way to look at it, and I doubt many people bought D8 to
> actually get the added D7.
> --
> Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
>
We did exactly that, buying a D8 just so we could get the D7.
John Wester [Group W]
velt...@gmail.com says...
> At 15:42:08, 05.07.2004, Wayne Niddery [TeamB] wrote:
>
> > "D8" did not come with D7. A preview .Net compiler came with D7. These
> > do not and could not count as sold units of D8 since D8 as a product
> > was still well over a year in the future then.
>
> He meant that instead of D7 coming with D8, he considers it D7 with D8 in
> the box. Funny way to look at it, and I doubt many people bought D8 to
> actually get the added D7.
>
StarTeam. The fact that I got D7 with Bold and Modelmaker was a bonus.
And yes, I am developing in D8 and D7 (depending on client), climbing
the ECO and Bold Everest Learning curve.
--
John
Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts
Harry Barclay
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] wrote:
> Funny way to look at it, and I doubt many people bought D8 to
> actually get the added D7.
I think you might be surprised at how many people do that, I know that
is what we did here. I have installed the D8 on my development machine,
but have not actually used it yet. It was in the box, and I hope to
someday get time to look at it, but D7 is what we are going to use for now.
Brion L. Webster
> He meant that instead of D7 coming with D8, he considers it D7
> with D8 in the box. Funny way to look at it, and I doubt many
> people bought D8 to actually get the added D7.
I almost did. I was going to buy D8 mostly for the D7, then I went
ahead and bought D7 instead, for the Kylix license. D8 came with
S/A, so I got three IDE's. Plus a StarTeam license, which I'm
still not sure I want.
What am I using? Entirely the D7 IDE. I'd like Kylix to be a
functional reality, but between our internal server politics and
the stability of the tool, it's not there yet.
-Brion
Ed Dressel
> actually get the added D7.
life is different when Delphi is free--we got D8 and only have used D7 to
date.
Derek Davidson
> Then why didn't these people buy D7 long before the deal with D8 was
> known?
I don't know. One might speculate that they didn't have enough reason
to upgrade their current version but when they saw they could get it
free with a purchase of D8, thought it was a worthy purchase?
Derek Davidson
> FWIW, I'm also a bit annoyed scrolling through the long lines.
As YAPFX (Yet another plug for XanaNews), it eschews such things and
wraps lines at a sensible place to keep all the text visible in the
window without needing to scroll horizontally. :-)
David Clegg
> but you can
> download a free trial of both products:
I've already trialed the VS.NET add-in. I'll have to do the same for
the ControlCenter. It may be a harder sell to my boss though, as he may
view it as a stand-alone IDE and he's stated in the past his aim is to
become a VS only shop. Frankly I was surprised he was willing to
consider the VS.NET version of Together.
Nevertheless, if there are significant and compelling reasons to choose
ControlCenter over the VS.NET add-in I'll pitch it to him.
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg_at_ebetonline_dot_com
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beds and TV...is." - Homer Simpson
David Clegg
> This has been very helpful to people as well. 4 animated tutorials on
> TVS 2, in order:
Agreed. They sold me (and my boss, which is no mean feat) on the
concept. Evaluation of the demo version simply re-enforced that I gotta
my hands on a copy. :-)
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg_at_ebetonline_dot_com
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I R T
> The reason I ask for the numbers of new units sold should be obvious: it's
> the most telling indicator of the product's real growth (or decline)
If it is in decline, why would they want to tell you ?
If it is not in decline, remember that you are asking
for information from the company that has still not released
the Open Letter.
Derek Davidson
> This has been very helpful to people as well. 4 animated tutorials on
> TVS 2, in order:
Interesting. Very interesting.
One thing I couldn't find very easily though and maybe someone can help
- what support is there (if any) for refactoring other than re-doing
the diagrams and letting the 'live source' functionality do it's thing?
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
ISTR that it was not free before (for the Enterpise and Architect SKUs,
it was free for the Pro SKU). One had to pay a little extra for the added
D7 in the D8 box. It seems Borland have changed that now.
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Governor, and that
one word is 'to be prepared'." -- George W. Bush
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
> Rudy Velthuis [TeamB] wrote:
>
> > Then why didn't these people buy D7 long before the deal with D8 was
> > known?
>
> I don't know. One might speculate that they didn't have enough reason
> to upgrade their current version but when they saw they could get it
> free with a purchase of D8, thought it was a worthy purchase?
So *those* people would have bought D8 because of D8 then, and not
because of D7. <g>
--
Rudy Velthuis [TeamB]
"Men are not disturbed by things, but the view they take of things."
- Epictetus (55-135 A.D.)
"What about things like bullets?"
- Herb Kimmel, Behavioralist, Professor of Psychology, upon hearing
the above quote (1981)
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> One thing I couldn't find very easily though and maybe someone can
> help - what support is there (if any) for refactoring other than
> re-doing the diagrams and letting the 'live source' functionality do
> it's thing?
Yes; the available refactorings are summarized in the online Help
under Working with Together/Refactoring. It doesn't include everything
in Fowler's book, but there's a good bit more than just the diagram
editor.
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Useful articles about InterBase development:
http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/category/21.aspx
Danny Thorpe
> All I'm asking for is for the number of new Delphi licenses sold in
> the United States, per version. It should be a simple chart.
>
That information will not be published.
Thanks for your feedback,
-Danny Thorpe
Borland Chief Scientist
Borland Software Corporation
--
Delphi Compiler Core: http://homepages.borland.com/dthorpe/blog/delphi/
David Clegg
> One thing I couldn't find very easily though and maybe someone can
> help - what support is there (if any) for refactoring other than
> re-doing the diagrams and letting the 'live source' functionality do
> it's thing?
There is integrated support for refactoring at the source code level
(e.g Rename Variable, Extract Method). From my limited experience with
the demo version, it seemed to work well.
I don't have it installed anymore (the key expired last week, and my
boss is on vacation so I can't nag him about purchasing), so I can't
provide the complete list.
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg_at_ebetonline_dot_com
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Derek Davidson
> There is integrated support for refactoring at the source code level
> (e.g Rename Variable, Extract Method). From my limited experience with
> the demo version, it seemed to work well.
Brilliant! I think I'll give the demo a go then. Thanks for that.
David Berneda
With TeeChart you can do it in seconds:
Series1.Add( 1234, 'D1' );
Series2.Add( 4567, 'D2' );
etc
regards
david
www.teechart.com
"J O Holloway" <misterh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:40e8548e$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> All I'm asking for is for the number of _new_ Delphi licenses sold in the
> United States, per version. It should be a simple chart.
>
> ver units sold
> D1:
> D2:
> D3:
> D4:
> D5:
> D6:
> D7:
> D8:
>
Khen Chzakuv
>-Danny Thorpe
>Borland Chief Scientist
>Borland Software Corporation
What's the Chief Scientist? In charge of their nuclear weapons program?
J O Holloway
news:xn0dkj9h...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Yes, and he just "nuked" my request for information :)
And, Danny Boy, I got the point several days ago. You guys aren't going to
brag about Delphi's unit sales. I get it. Message delivered. Thank you.
Ad infinitum. I'm sorry I asked. Roger wilco, over and out.
Now, I'm off to study a language that has a future In.This.Country.
Danny Thorpe
In a manner of speaking, yes. I'm in charge of long-term technology
planning for the Delphi family of development tools. ;> I also work
on the Delphi compiler.
-Danny
Danny Thorpe
> >
> > What's the Chief Scientist? In charge of their nuclear weapons
> > program?
> >
>
>
> Yes, and he just "nuked" my request for information :)
>
Well, somebody had to. You didn't like the answers from the peanut
gallery, so I added a little oomph to the response. ;>
> You guys aren't going to brag about Delphi's unit sales.
That's correct. We're required by the SEC to publish revenue figures,
but we're not required to disclose the exact makeup of how many units
of each product SKU contributed to those figures. While unit counts
would certainly make for interesting cocktail party conversations, it
would provide little benefit to sales and would provide great benefit
to competitors wanting to know which market segments they should target
to pull customers away from Borland products.
Thanks for your understanding,
-Danny
David Clegg
> Brilliant! I think I'll give the demo a go then. Thanks for that.
You're welcome.
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dclegg_at_ebetonline_dot_com
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I R T
I R T
> And, Danny Boy, I got the point several days ago. You guys aren't going to
> brag about Delphi's unit sales. I get it. Message delivered. Thank you.
> Ad infinitum. I'm sorry I asked.
That has always been Borland policy.
Security through obscurity.
> Now, I'm off to study a language that has a future In.This.Country.
Smart move.
I R T
> would provide little benefit to sales and would provide great benefit
> to competitors wanting to know which market segments they should target
> to pull customers away from Borland products.
Serious competitors dont already know this ?
Simply hiring one Borlander with the information each
year for a yearly update would provide this information.
What do you want to bet that MS know your favorite
coffee and the layout of your toilets ?
Craig van Nieuwkerk
>
> Simply hiring one Borlander with the information each
> year for a yearly update would provide this information.
>
It would also put that ex-employee at risk of getting a knock on the door
one day from the lawyers of their ex-employer. A few ten's of thousands of
dollars in legal fees later they would regret it. My personal experience
would indicate that anyone who has grand ideas like this had better watch
their back.
I R T
Microsoft have a very large collection of ex-Borlanders.
They seem to acquire a few more each year.
Somehow, I do not think that they are just being hired for their
sunny personalities. Their skills, experience and insight into
the industry is why MS want them.
As for legal fees, MS probably spends more in legal fees yearly than
Borlands yearly profits.
Craig van Nieuwkerk
>
> Microsoft have a very large collection of ex-Borlanders.
> They seem to acquire a few more each year.
>
> Somehow, I do not think that they are just being hired for their
> sunny personalities. Their skills, experience and insight into
> the industry is why MS want them.
>
Yes, and Borland took them to court which MS settled out of court. MS can
afford to pay multi million dollar settlements, most people cant.
I R T
Ie: the only serious competitors already have the information because
they can afford the legal costs.
Thomas Edison
Exactly.
Khen Chzakuv
>They made the WMDs for Saddam :-)
Considering that they turned out to be vapourware, I suspect it was Microsoft :-)
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> Yes, and Borland took them to court which MS settled out of court. MS
> can afford to pay multi million dollar settlements, most people cant.
FWIW: The settlement with Microsoft was over patent infringement, not
NDA violations. The former Borlanders who now work for Microsoft,
generally speaking, are people I would expect to honor NDAs. The idea
that Microsoft hired people like Anders Hejlsberg for access to Borland
financial data is a bit absurd, really.
-Craig
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Everything You Need to Know About InterBase Character Sets:
http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/articles/403.aspx
Lord Crc
<cst...@nospam.please [a.k.a. vertexsoftware.com]> wrote:
> The idea
>that Microsoft hired people like Anders Hejlsberg for access to Borland
>financial data is a bit absurd, really.
Bah come on, the whole .net invention thing was just a ploy to cover
up for their espionage into borlands marketshare. No need to play
innocent, we know you know too...
- Asbjørn
;)
Paul Nichols (TeamB)
>
> FWIW: The settlement with Microsoft was over patent infringement, not
> NDA violations. The former Borlanders who now work for Microsoft,
> generally speaking, are people I would expect to honor NDAs. The idea
> that Microsoft hired people like Anders Hejlsberg for access to Borland
> financial data is a bit absurd, really.
>
> -Craig
>
Just a bit absurd, Craig?? Well, I guess you were being kind :)
Danny Thorpe
> "Danny Thorpe" <dth...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > would provide little benefit to sales and would provide great
> > benefit to competitors wanting to know which market segments they
> > should target to pull customers away from Borland products.
>
> Serious competitors dont already know this ?
>
> Simply hiring one Borlander with the information each
> year for a yearly update would provide this information.
>
Unit count figures aren't known to all Borland employees. The people
who know those numbers have been here for quite awhile, and their
predecessors did not leave to go to Microsoft. Incidentally, I'm not
one of those people. I've seen the numbers occasionally in quarterly
ops reviews, but I don't have them committed to memory.
I'd also like to believe that Borlanders tend to be people of
sufficient moral fiber to know that spewing Borland figures at any new
employer is wrong. I'd prefer to trust our own people (and be wrong)
than to assume they're not trustworthy (and be right).
> What do you want to bet that MS know your favorite
> coffee and the layout of your toilets ?
They do. We invite MS folks down here regularly to discuss stuff.
I've shown them the toilets several times. ;>
David Clegg
> I've shown them the toilets several times. ;>
You coffee is *that* bad? ;-)
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
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