Where's the Delphi in "Delphi for PHP"?
Steve M
be able to leverage my Delphi skills (i.e. Object Pascal) to create PHP web
applications. How's this gong to work in practice? I've had a look this
web-site:
http://www.qadram.com/products.php#wcl
Where I can see some code - but I'm not seeing Object Pascal - what's up?
It does mention, "WCL requires the added OOP functionality of PHP 5" so
maybe there is some OP somewhere - anyone know where?
Best regards,
Steve
PS If Delphi for PHP does not include any OP then I think CodeGear has make
a huge branding blunder by attaching the Delphi prefix to the new product.
There is already too many flavors of Delphi (Explorer, Pro, Turbo, Turbo
Pro, .NET, BDS) and to confuse the situation by adding another language that
is not based upon Pascal is "brand suicide" IMHO. I desperately hope I'm
wrong.
Uffe Kousgaard
news:45daf643$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> I desperately hope I'm wrong.
You are not.
Florent Ouchet
the language, the IDE and all its features.
Delphi for PHP probably means the softness of programming applied to PHP
like you used to with Delphi for Delphi.
--
Florent Ouchet
What I am listening http://www.pandora.com/people/outch
Dean Hill
> Delphi for PHP - sounds great!! I assume by the product's title that
> I'll be able to leverage my Delphi skills (i.e. Object Pascal) to
I think it is the environment / experience skills that they are
referring to and not the Delphi syntax.
Cheers
Dean
Richie B.
> language, the IDE and all its features.
You mean Delphi is IDE, VCL, DB4, Object Pascal etc?
So you can take out any technology you want and replace it with any
technology you want and it is still Delphi?
So lets say I replace BDS, VCL, DB4 & Object Pascal with... ehm... Visual
Studio, .NET Framework, ADO.NET & C# and I can still call it Delphi???
Wow!!!
RB
Bob
> So you can take out any technology you want and replace it with any
> technology you want and it is still Delphi?
>
> So lets say I replace BDS, VCL, DB4 & Object Pascal with... ehm... Visual
> Studio, .NET Framework, ADO.NET & C# and I can still call it Delphi???
> Wow!!!
The logo.
You have got to keep the nifty logo the same :-)
Richie B.
> You have got to keep the nifty logo the same :-)
The "Designed with Delphi" logo? :-)
Richie B.
All 3rd party suppliers will be really happy that "... for Delphi" is now a
confusing name. All "Delphi for PHP" users will be very happy when they
Google for "Delphi".
Florent Ouchet
> No, but I can take two different Delphi versions that have nothing in
> common.
I've never seen a Delphi brand on a package containing Visual Studio or
on a package not containing VCL ;)
Florent Ouchet
> So you can take out any technology you want and replace it with any
> technology you want and it is still Delphi?
That's not what I wrote...
Richie B.
No, but I can take two different Delphi versions that have nothing in
common.
RB
Herbert Sitz
news:45daf883$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
But it's a different IDE than the IDE used for BDS, Delphi, or TurboDelphi.
Kind of like VS.NET is a different IDE.
I also expect that the PHP "VCL" will also be a different VCL from Delphi's.
Kind of like .NET's FCL is a different VCL from Delphi's.
So people who are suggesting that VS.NET could be renamed "Delphi for C#"
seem not far off the track.
This feels to me like a marketing blunder by Codegear. They need to rethink
marketing strategy. The beginning of their marketing blunders began before
Codegear even existed, with new "Turbo" versions that were exactly the same
but somehow essentially different because they "targeted" different users.
From what I can see that blunder continues to confuse people and make the
Turbos less popular than they could/should be. This new "Delphi for PHP"
blunder seems as bad or worse.
-- Herb Sitz
Magnus Flysjö
"Delphi for C++"
"Delphi for Visual Basic"
"Delphi for Java".
I like to call the language in Delphi for object pascal, and I'm glad if we
can get rid of the confusing caused when Pascal language from Borland
suddenly was named Delphi. In my eyes, Delphi is the product and pascal the
language.
Well.. I have to go to the store now and buy some Delphi milk to my Delphi
son. ;-)
"Steve M" <maughancentr...@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:45daf643$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> I assume by the product's title that I'll be able to leverage my
> Delphi skills (i.e. Object Pascal) to create PHP web applications.
That's not the case. It's a very Delphi-like experience, but it is all
PHP code.
--
Nick Hodges
Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
http://blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
Brad White
news:45db1439$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> "Dean Hill" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
> news:45daf883$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>> Steve M wrote:
>>
>> > Delphi for PHP - sounds great!! I assume by the product's title that
>> > I'll be able to leverage my Delphi skills (i.e. Object Pascal) to
>>
>
> TurboDelphi.
> Kind of like VS.NET is a different IDE.
>
>
Yes, very strange. Especially considering that Turbo PHP
seems to be available and targeting a similar market
segment as the Turbos, not diehard Delphi users.
Brad.
Steve M
I really think CodeGear is making a big mistake calling it Delphi for PHP.
I'm not seeing anyone on this NG that thinks the new product should have a
Delphi prefix - it's confusing!
As the product manager you need to have a razor sharp definition of what
Delphi is, and is not. In my view, and I may be mistaken, Delphi and the
Pascal language are tightly linked - it's Pascal for today's computer
environments. And it's Pascal done well with a nice IDE, component
framework and debugger - but it's the excellent implementation of *Pascal*
that (IMHO) defines Delphi. And it's the excellent implementation of Pascal
that nobody has been able to replicate.
Nick - I hope you don't see me as being critical for the sake of it. I'm
passionate about Delphi and I desperate for CodeGear and Delphi to have a
great future - I'm just concerned about this latest wrinkle in Delphi's
path.
Best regards,
Steve
"Nick Hodges (CodeGear)" <nick....@codegear.com> wrote in message
news:45db1cfc$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> As the product manager you need to have a razor sharp definition of
> what Delphi is, and is not.
Note that I'm not the Product Manager for Delphi PHP.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
>
> I really think CodeGear is making a big mistake calling it Delphi for
> PHP. I'm not seeing anyone on this NG that thinks the new product
> should have a Delphi prefix - it's confusing!
All of your "Delphi" skills can be carried over to Delphi PHP. It all
should be very familiar to Delphi developers -- event driven
programming, components, component building, the Object Inspector --
except you code in PHP and not Object Pascal.
Luke
<nick.hod...@codegear.com> wrote:
> All of your "Delphi" skills can be carried over to Delphi PHP. It all
> should be very familiar to Delphi developers -- event driven
> programming, components, component building, the Object Inspector --
> except you code in PHP and not Object Pascal.
I do PHP so it's not an issue for me. But when I work with Delphi
it's:
-5% dragging,dropping and clicking
-95% coding (typing Object Pascal code)
I don't know how could I carry over my Delphi skills to PHP if I
didn't know it (PHP).
L.
Brian Moelk
> All of your "Delphi" skills can be carried over to Delphi PHP.
So I presume is the target audience for your PHP product is existing
Delphi developers?
Are you going to market non-Delphi PHP programmers?
--
Brian Moelk
Brain Endeavor LLC
bmo...@NObrainSPAMendeavorFOR.MEcom
Steve M
"> Note that I'm not the Product Manager for Delphi PHP."
Even more confusion. I thought you were the Delphi product manager; this
product is Delphi for PHP. Someone has stolen your brand.
Anyway - I've made my views clear, I'm not going to yammer any more. FWIW I
work as a sales and marketing consultant. I do hope that the PHP product is
a great success and I hope (even more) that Delphi for Win 32 continues its
success.
Best regards,
Steve
"Nick Hodges (CodeGear)" <nick....@codegear.com> wrote in message
news:45db2ca7$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Petr Vones
I'm wondering how far this "going technologically backward" can go. A PHP
could be interesting few years ago but today only ASP.NET or JSP frameworks
makes sense or things like Ruby for smaller projects. Can't wait for "Delphi
for Batch files" ;-)
Petr
maramirezc
"Nick Hodges (CodeGear)" <nick....@codegear.com> wrote:
>That's not the case. It's a very Delphi-like experience, but >it is all PHP code.
>
>--
>Nick Hodges
>Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
>http://blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
I think your are doing a GREAT JOB here.
BUT, the "Delphi for PHP", is a confusing/BAD IDEA.
I mean, "Delphi" IS NOT AN IDE, BUT A COPYRIGHTED PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE based in previous "Object Pascal" programming language...
What about "PHPBuilder", "Turbo PHP", "Borland PHP Studio", "CodeGear PHP Studio" ???
or using a special greek name like "morfeus", instead ???
Like youd did with: "Kyl", (ugh, bad example), like you did with "Delphi" instead of "ObjectPascalBuilder"/"ApplicationBuilder" ???
Just my 2 cents. Cheers !!!
maramirezc
Victor Helsing
the appeal of the programming environment. I have been openly critical of
Borland in the past, particularly their betrayal of trust in recent editions
of Delphi and their decision to abandon Kylix.
Having said that, I do not believe that a decision to leverage the Delphi
brand into PHP programming weakens its value. On the contrary, the argument
can be made that using that platform to provide other programming languages
that are clearly being broadly used (such as PHP, which I have never used)
has the potential to preserve the platform and make more NEW users aware of
its advantages. To my eye, it is an advantage that Delphi is branching into
PHP, just as it is an advantage to have other migration paths (such as
Kylix/Linux).
While it is fine to have passion for preserving the purity of Delphi, it is
reasonable for a small company trying to survive to make use of the brand it
has to branch into new markets. To the extent it generates new revenue to
cover those expenses, I think it is good. If, on the other hand, it diverts
effort into an unprofitable area at the expense of the Delphi/Pascal
product, it is suicide at this point in the company's history. I believe
the CodeGear people have considered these implications carefully before
doing this.
"Steve M" <maughancentr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45db...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> So I presume is the target audience for your PHP product is existing
> Delphi developers?
To start with.
> Are you going to market non-Delphi PHP programmers?
Eventually, I believe.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> If, on the other hand, it diverts effort into an unprofitable area at
> the expense of the Delphi/Pascal product, it is suicide at this point
> in the company's history.
That is not the case at all. Just to be clear. ;-)
maramirezc
"Petr Vones" <no@mail> wrote:
>I'm wondering how far this "going technologically backward" >can go. A PHP
>could be interesting few years ago but today only ASP.NET or >JSP frameworks
>makes sense or things like Ruby for smaller projects. Can't >wait for "Delphi
>for Batch files" ;-)
>
>Petr
Wrong. I have work with "php", "asp.net" & "jsp" projects, and I still prefered PHP.
"asp" and "jsp" are getting too much complicated frameworks, I think.
Maybe its not your case, but, for existing Delphi developers, that require to work in web, PHP its a good alternative.
PHP as other "programming languages" / "development enviroments" have its pitfalls.
Personally, I DON'T LIKE MUCH of the existing PHP libraries, and I miss some namespace / modular support.
Just my 2 cents...
maramirezc
Ingvar Nilsen
> Are you going to market non-Delphi PHP programmers?
This is a strange question my friend :)
I thought this was THE CodeGear initiative to gain recognition outside
the non-tech <g>
--
Ingvar Nilsen
Brand New Web Site! Free Delphi Tool:
http://www.ingvarius.com
Brian Moelk
>> So I presume is the target audience for your PHP product is existing
>> Delphi developers?
>
> To start with.
Interesting target market; especially if the intent is to roll it into
BDS one day. Seems like small/non-existent upsell margins...
>> Are you going to market non-Delphi PHP programmers?
>
> Eventually, I believe.
IMO, the product name is not conducive to do so.
Fritz Huber
> could be interesting few years ago but today only ASP.NET or JSP
> frameworks makes sense or things like Ruby for smaller projects. Can't
> wait for "Delphi for Batch files" ;-)
Java people have been laughing at PHP for years now. In the meanwhile,
inexperienced developers have been pumping out one PHP site after another,
often running circles around those Java developers.
Even big companies have given up fighting it. Oracle is really pushing PHP
now, and even MS is working hard to make PHP run faster on IIS.
PHP is just a super easy, super productive environment for the Web. Can't
wait to give the new product a try.
Ingvar Nilsen
> Nick,
>
> I really think CodeGear is making a big mistake calling it Delphi for
> PHP. I'm not seeing anyone on this NG that thinks the new product
> should have a Delphi prefix - it's confusing!
WooHoo - here I am :)
Having thought about it, I think it is an ingenious move. Any possible
"Delphi=Product of the 90ies" connotations will hopefully vanish when
it appears in its PHP skin.
Ingvar Nilsen
> Can't wait for "Delphi for Batch files" ;-)
rofl :)
I think you'll have to wait, according to the roadmap, Delphi for
INI-files has priority :)
mamcx
I thinking in how hard was for the brand of delphi get on .net, because
the perception is Delphi=native.
Brad White
news:45db38e2$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>I am a longtime C programmer that converted to Delphi and Pascal because of
>the appeal of the programming environment. I have been openly critical of
>Borland in the past, particularly their betrayal of trust in recent
>editions of Delphi and their decision to abandon Kylix.
>
> Having said that, I do not believe that a decision to leverage the Delphi
> brand into PHP programming weakens its value. On the contrary, the
> argument can be made that using that platform to provide other programming
> languages
If they used the same platform, meaning the same IDE, or based the IDE
on common Galileo code, then it would be justified. You could reasonably
say
that Delphi was just getting broader and more inclusive.
But that's not the case at all. They are just reusing the same familiar
words
to mean different things.
> that are clearly being broadly used (such as PHP, which I have never used)
> has the potential to preserve the platform and make more NEW users aware
> of its advantages. To my eye, it is an advantage that Delphi is branching
> into PHP, just as it is an advantage to have other migration paths (such
> as Kylix/Linux).
I would agree. But this isn't branching or migrating.
>
> While it is fine to have passion for preserving the purity of Delphi, it
> is reasonable for a small company trying to survive to make use of the
> brand it has to branch into new markets. To the extent it generates new
> revenue to cover those expenses, I think it is good. If, on the other
> hand, it diverts effort into an unprofitable area at the expense of the
> Delphi/Pascal product, it is suicide at this point in the company's
> history. I believe the CodeGear people have considered these implications
> carefully before doing this.
>
For the record, I don't have any concern about this at all.
Different teams working on different things. No problem.
--
Thanks,
Brad.
Tony Bryer
wrote:
> All of your "Delphi" skills can be carried over to Delphi PHP. It all
> should be very familiar to Delphi developers -- event driven
> programming, components, component building, the Object Inspector --
> except you code in PHP and not Object Pascal.
But John Kaster will tell you - he told me here some while back - that
Object Pascal is an obsolete name for what is now (since c.Delphi 6)
called Delphi [the language].
I agree with the other posts that calling the new product Delphi for PHP
or somesuch name would be a disastrous mistake. You might as well call
it InPHPrise!
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' www.sda.co.uk
Software Industry Conference 2007 sponsor www.sic.org
Hyatt TechCenter, Denver, July 12-14, 2007
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> So who is Product Manager of Delphi for PHP?
Tim Del Chiaro
Bob Swart
> Note that I'm not the Product Manager for Delphi PHP.
So who is Product Manager of Delphi for PHP?
Groetjes,
Bob Swart
--
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) Forever Loyal to Delphi
Blog: http://www.drbob42.com/blog - RSS: http://drbob42.com/weblog.xml
New Delphi 2006 Courseware e-books at http://www.eBob42.com/courseware
Steve Troxell
> Steve M wrote:
>
>> As the product manager you need to have a razor sharp definition of
>> what Delphi is, and is not.
>
> Note that I'm not the Product Manager for Delphi PHP.
>
And the confusion begins *instantly* since you are the "Delphi Product
Manager" but that doesn't seem include Delphi for PHP. What exactly does
the title "Delphi Product Manager" encompass? What exactly does the
Delphi brand name encompass? Why are they not the same?
My vote for Delphi for PHP is a huge mistake in naming.
Steve Troxell
Dennis Ortiz
> I wonder when we will be able to buy products like:
> "Delphi for C++"
very easy to do and i like the idea
> "Delphi for Visual Basic"
Visual Basic are a Propietary Language and Other compay brand name, so
this is not a good idea.
> "Delphi for Java".
Codegear java are based in eclipse, wich use and experience not
reasemble delphi in any similar way.
Randy Magruder
> Nick,
>
> I really think CodeGear is making a big mistake calling it Delphi for
> PHP. I'm not seeing anyone on this NG that thinks the new product
> should have a Delphi prefix - it's confusing!
I'm going to have to agree with Steve on this one.
If Delphi for PHP doesn't use the DELPHI LANGUAGE, it's a mistake to
call it for Delphi. Did you call C++ Builder "Delphi for C++"? No.
Did you call JBuilder "Delphi for Java" ? No. PHP Builder would have
been fine. RADPHP would have been. PDS (PHP Developer Studio) would
have been fine.
Delphi for PHP is NOT fine.
Ouch.
Randy
Randy Magruder
> Steve M wrote:
>
> >
> > I really think CodeGear is making a big mistake calling it Delphi
> > for PHP. I'm not seeing anyone on this NG that thinks the new
> > product should have a Delphi prefix - it's confusing!
>
> All of your "Delphi" skills can be carried over to Delphi PHP. It all
> should be very familiar to Delphi developers -- event driven
> programming, components, component building, the Object Inspector --
> except you code in PHP and not Object Pascal.
All of the above is true for Visual Studio as well. So Microsoft
should have named it: " Delphi for C#" :)
Randy
--
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> So Microsoft
> should have named it: " Delphi for C#" :)
Yep, I'll agree with that. ;-)
Brian Moelk
>> So Microsoft
>> should have named it: " Delphi for C#" :)
>
> Yep, I'll agree with that. ;-)
BTW, are you still the C# product manager?
Petr Vones
> Delphi for PHP is NOT fine.
Don't try to find a logic here ... it is just marketing <g>
Petr
Q Correll
| Delphi for PHP is NOT fine.
|
| Ouch.
A position with which I also agree.
--
Q
02/20/2007 13:00:54
XanaNews Version 1.17.5.7 [Q's salutation mod]
Brian Moelk
> Don't try to find a logic here ... it is just marketing <g>
Good marketing is logical.
Jolyon Smith
> Delphi is not just a programming language but a whole pack containing
> the language, the IDE and all its features.
Nope - Delphi IS (or perhaps rather "was" _the_language_). It became
synonymous with the IDE, but notice that previous most recent releases
use Delphi as a discriminator, not a branding:
Turbo C++/Delphi
BDS
I interpret "Delphi for PHP" as indicative of the recognition of the
_potential_ strength of Delphi AS a brand.
However, there is still some shake-down required for Delphi to emerge as
a brand - as it is at the moment I (personally) think that the wrong
choice has been made.
When mentioning "Delphi for PHP" to Delphi colleagues they react "So
what? I don't know PHP". When mentioning it to web colleagues they
react "So what? I don't know Delphi"
(not speculative reactions, actual reactions - paraphrased obviously)
+0.02
--
Jolyon Smith
WHILE INKEY$ WEND
Clément Doss
I just think that CG is back ontrack. It should focus on help
developers. There are many languages out there that could use a
"delphi-like" IDE.
> So I presume is the target audience for your PHP product is existing
> Delphi developers?
>
> Are you going to market non-Delphi PHP programmers?
>
Well, As far as I know there are no other RAD IDE for PHP in the market.
And of course ANY developer will be able to use Delphi for PHP.
The part I think is confusing is the _Delphi_ in "Delphi for PHP". One
might be reluctant to move to Delphi for PHP because he/she might think
some dependency with "Delphi for win 32" exists (ie, must have to
purchase Delphi in order to use Delphi for PHP; MS Dudes might think..
well who knows what they may think :-D).
"Delphi" has a history. Good moments, and no so good ones, lot's of RAD
features, 3rd party components and a few problems ;-). I don't think
Delphi for PHP is as robust as Delphi for Win32 (IDE wise), that also
might lead to some misunderstanding. IMHO, this product should have been
named "Turbo PHP" . The "turbo" line of products fits better this CG/PHP
experience : One language, no strings attached, no dependency.
CG should give time to itself to mature "delphi for php" before
including it in the "main" flag product : CodeGear Developer Studio :
With Delphi for Win32, Delphi for .NET, C++, C#, PHP, Java, Python ( one
can dream can't he?)
Just my 2c
Clément
Gbenga Abimbola
Having a Delphi-like experience in creating a PHP code is
a smart move. CodeGear has really gone into a high 'GEAR!'
Droping a component onto a form, extending it, adding
functionlities, oh My! You cannot ask for more. I hope
this is what Nick meant!
Anyway, for an introductory price of $249.00, that's not
bad for a start, if all that were mentioned in the following
URL came to pass.
http://www.codegear.com/AboutUs/News/DelphiForPHP/tabid/239/Default.aspx
I'm waiting in line to buy my copy!
I don't like the name CodeGear before, but it appears that
they are really reving up the engine. So, I will learn to
accept the name. Just keep on cranking the Engine, there
are lots of drivers around!
Gbenga
>That's not the case. It's a very Delphi-like experience, but it is all
>PHP code.
Eddie Shipman
>
> "Nick Hodges (CodeGear)" <nick....@codegear.com> wrote:
>
> > That's not the case. It's a very Delphi-like experience, but >it
> > is all PHP code.
> >
> > --
> > Nick Hodges
> > Delphi Product Manager - CodeGear
> > http://blogs.codegear.com/nickhodges
>
> I think your are doing a GREAT JOB here.
>
> BUT, the "Delphi for PHP", is a confusing/BAD IDEA.
>
> I mean, "Delphi" IS NOT AN IDE, BUT A COPYRIGHTED PROGRAMMING
> LANGUAGE based in previous "Object Pascal" programming language...
>
> What about "PHPBuilder", "Turbo PHP", "Borland PHP Studio", "CodeGear
> PHP Studio" ???
>
1. PHPBuilder is a PHP website resource for PHP tutorials, templates,
PHP manuals, content management systems, scripts, classes and more.
Owned by JupiterMedia.
http://www.phpbuilder.com
2. TurboPHP is an already released product, even written in Delphi,
BTW.
http://www.turboPHP.com
3. PHP Studio is a registered Soruceforge project.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/phpstudiodev/
4. Top PHP Studio is an already released product, ALSO written in
Delphi.
http://www.top-systems.net/
5. "CodeGear PHP Developer" would be better suggestion.
Jolyon Smith
> Petr Vones wrote:
> > Don't try to find a logic here ... it is just marketing <g>
>
> Good marketing is logical.
Hmmmm... good marketting usually makes sense, or can be made sense of,
but isn't always logical.
Some of the best marketting is completely illogical, e.g. selling
draught beer from an ice cream van: "you want a flake with that luv?"
;)
Lance R.
It was a big deal a few versions ago when Borland treated Delphi now as
a language and not a "thing".
Delphi has become, IMHO, synonymous with "Visual Pascal", as it were.
When you ask for Delphi code... everyone, generally, understands what
you mean.
It also is stated in the product sheets for CodeGear:
"Develop applications in the powerfule, modern, object-oriented Delphi
language, a derivative of Object Pascal".
Considering the fact that there is C# Builder, C++ Builder and JBuilder
(although that is now Eclipse based) ... Wouldn't it make sense to call
it PHP Builder (although I understand the problem because PHPBuilder.com
is a great PHP language resource website).
If CodeGear wishes to "rebrand" Delphi as being the IDE then I would
suggest keeping the spirit going:
1) Rebrand Spacely (Delphi 2007) as "Delphi for Visual Pascal" or
"Delphi for Delphi" (and really look foolish)
2) Rebrand the C# line as "Delphi for C#"
3) Rebrand the C++ line as "Delphi for C++"
4) Rebrand the Java line as "Eclipse for Java"
5) Rebrand Turbo Delphi as "Turbo Delphi for Visual Pascal"
6) Rebrand Turbo Delphi for .NET as "Turbo Delphi for Visual Pascal .NET"
etc etc.
This is just my plumber nickels worth on the subject. In no way take
this as a criticism of the product itself, as I think CodeGear PHP will
be a great addition.
Lance R
Herbert Sitz
news:45db3a0d$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Brian Moelk wrote:
>
> > Are you going to market non-Delphi PHP programmers?
>
>
Damn, I would go for them straight-away. Lots of PHP developers are
dissatisfied with quality of the IDE's. It's a huge market.
I guess I'm assuming that the Delphi for PHP IDE is going to be high quality
at initial release. Or are converts from the real Delphi going to be used
as guinea pigs?
-- Herb Sitz
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> 5. "CodeGear PHP Developer" would be better suggestion.
Just an aside -- the PHP people require that any name associated with
PHP be "<whatever> for PHP".
I don't know why others get away with it -- but we want, of course, to
follow the "rules of the game."
Robin
> I'm wondering how far this "going technologically backward" can go. A PHP
> could be interesting few years ago but today only ASP.NET or JSP frameworks
> for Batch files" ;-)
I don't think it is backwards at all. PHP has a massive and loyal
following. New programmers pick up PHP every day and get into it. It
is taught at universities, colleges, and has an unbelievable amount of
online resources.
Getting into the PHP market would, be a big step in introducing the BDS
to new developers. New blood is something which CodeGear should be
falling over themselves to get. Get them into the BDS and when they get
the itch to do Native or .NET coding, CodeGear will be the first place
they look.
If it really ends up being called 'Delphi for PHP', then that is IMHO, a
big mistake. Turbo PHP or something (almost anything) would be so much
better.
Not to mention the Linux/Unix possibilities.......
--
Robin.
Australian Bridal Accessories := http://www.bridalbuzz.com.au
Turbo for Noobs (a work in progress) := http://turbofornoobs.blogspot.com/
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Damn, I would go for them straight-away. Lots of PHP developers are
> dissatisfied with quality of the IDE's. It's a huge market.
One step at a time.
Diego
<out...@users.sourceforge.net> said:
> Delphi is not just a programming language but a whole pack containing
> the language, the IDE and all its features.
>
> Delphi for PHP probably means the softness of programming applied to
> PHP like you used to with Delphi for Delphi.
When is Delphi for Pascal coming out? Oh, wait, that's Delphi, right? :)
Roddy Pratt
becoming "Delphi for Delphi"!
Can't say I'm unduly bothered by the change. Delphi is a great brand,
and it makes sense to milk it.
- Roddy
Roddy Pratt
'Ladies and Gentlemen, I;d like to announce our new product, "Whatever
for PHP"...'
- Roddy
Jon Robertson
>>Delphi is not just a programming language but a whole pack containing
>>the language, the IDE and all its features.
>Nope - Delphi IS (or perhaps rather "was" _the_language_). It became
>synonymous with the IDE,
I must disagree. Initially the language was not called Delphi. It was
Object Pascal. (Someone said it changed with Delphi 5, but I don't have a
definitive reference handy.)
Delphi was the IDE + RAD + VCL + Object Pascal.
The confusion started with C++ Builder, as the main difference between the
two products was the programming language.
Then Borland decided to call the programming language Delphi instead of
Object Pascal. It was /already/ known as "IDE + RAD + VCL". It /became/
synonymous with the language.
Jolyon Smith
> Jolyon Smith wrote:
>
> >Nope - Delphi IS (or perhaps rather "was" _the_language_). It became
> >synonymous with the IDE,
>
> I must disagree.
As is your prerogative - however, if you wish to be accurate, according
to a post from John Kaster some time ago, Borland the language was
dubbed "Delphi" when that name was chosen for the product.
i.e. _well_ before Delphi 5
;)
> Initially the language was not called Delphi.
Right - initially it was called Pascal (note: NOT Object Pascal)
Within Borland Pascal begat Turbo Pascal, which begat Object Pascal
which begat Delphi.
When Delphi 1.0 was released it supported a variant of Object Pascal
which was called (by its creators) Delphi.
Delphi is Object Pascal only to the same extent that C++ is C
:D
David Clegg
> Droping a component onto a form, extending it, adding
> functionlities, oh My! You cannot ask for more. I hope
> this is what Nick meant!
Judge for yourself. The first couple of articles and videos have been
posted to CDN :-
http://dn.codegear.com/article/34068
http://dn.codegear.com/article/34059
--
Cheers,
David Clegg
dcl...@gmail.com
http://cc.codegear.com/Author/72299
QualityCentral. The best way to bug CodeGear about bugs.
http://qc.codegear.com
Rick Carter
Jolyon Smith wrote:
>As is your prerogative - however, if you wish to be accurate, according
>to a post from John Kaster some time ago, Borland the language was
>dubbed "Delphi" when that name was chosen for the product.
Borland the language? Jolyon, when was the language ever called Borland?
Rick Carter
cart...@despammed.com
Chair, Delphi/Paradox SIG, Cincinnati PC Users Group
--- posted by geoForum on http://delphi.newswhat.com
Magnus Flysjö
It's more a question of what the name "Delphi" really is.. Is it the IDE
product or the object pascal language?
I know most people think of Delphi as name of a programming language and not
a product, and in that case using the Delphi name in a product that doesn't
contain anything concerning the pascal language will confuse people..
"Dennis Ortiz" <d2o...@prtc.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:45db...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Tony Bryer
> As is your prerogative - however, if you wish to be accurate,
> according to a post from John Kaster some time ago, Borland the
> language was dubbed "Delphi" when that name was chosen for the
> product.
> i.e. _well_ before Delphi 5
With apologies to JK, he is trying to rewrite history.
"Object Pascal, a set of object-orientated extensions to standard
Pascal, is the language of Delphi" ... "When you write classes of
your own in Object Pascal ...."
Source: Delphi 5 Developers' Guide, Chapter 2 "Using Object Pascal
with the VCL", Copyright 1983,1999 Inprise Corporation - the
producer of the product + manual, not some muddled third-party
author.
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' www.sda.co.uk
Software Industry Conference 2007 sponsor www.sic.org
Hyatt TechCenter, Denver, July 12-14, 2007
Diego
> Gbenga Abimbola wrote:
>
>> Droping a component onto a form, extending it, adding
>> functionlities, oh My! You cannot ask for more. I hope
>> this is what Nick meant!
>
> Judge for yourself. The first couple of articles and videos have been
> posted to CDN :-
>
> http://dn.codegear.com/article/34068
> http://dn.codegear.com/article/34059
The demo video looks friggin' nice!
Now when's Delphi for Rails coming out? :)
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> 'Ladies and Gentlemen, I;d like to announce our new product, "Whatever
> for PHP"...'
Who's on first? ;-)
David Clegg
> Now when's Delphi for Rails coming out? :)
I have no idea, but you may well consider this a notice of intent
http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.ruby.rails/122625
or
Robin
> Gbenga Abimbola wrote:
>
>> Droping a component onto a form, extending it, adding
>> functionlities, oh My! You cannot ask for more. I hope
>> this is what Nick meant!
>
> Judge for yourself. The first couple of articles and videos have been
> posted to CDN :-
>
> http://dn.codegear.com/article/34068
> http://dn.codegear.com/article/34059
>
Does the download link on teh second one work for anyone else?
Robin
>> http://dn.codegear.com/article/34068
>> http://dn.codegear.com/article/34059
>>
>
> Does the download link on teh second one work for anyone else?
And is the link "To purchase Delphi for PHP, see our shop site" actually
list a Delphi for PHP?
Jolyon Smith
says...
> Roddy Pratt wrote:
>
> > 'Ladies and Gentlemen, I;d like to announce our new product, "Whatever
> > for PHP"...'
>
> Who's on first? ;-)
What's on second?
;D
Tom
> When is Delphi for Pascal coming out? Oh, wait, that's Delphi, right? :)
>
C'mon!!! Get it right for once will you?!?!? It's Inprise Pascal
I've never seen a company like Borland suffer from such name confusion. And
the saga continues...
Diego
Like the Microsoft Vista naming cock-up.... makes it easy to choose.. .:)
Jolyon Smith
> >> I must disagree.
>
> Jolyon Smith wrote:
> >As is your prerogative - however, if you wish to be accurate, according
> >to a post from John Kaster some time ago, Borland the language was
> >dubbed "Delphi" when that name was chosen for the product.
>
> Borland the language? Jolyon, when was the language ever called Borland?
lol @ me
It wasn't, but it started to seem that way the day I edited a post in a hurry
and chopped the word "within" immediately prior to the statement "Borland the
language".
Re-insert "within" at the described location and it makes sense.
Well, as much sense as I ever make.
:D
--
Jolyon
Jolyon Smith
> In article <MPG.20464bcb8...@newsgroups.borland.com>,
> Jolyon Smith wrote:
> > As is your prerogative - however, if you wish to be accurate,
> > according to a post from John Kaster some time ago, Borland the
> > language was dubbed "Delphi" when that name was chosen for the
> > product.
>
> > i.e. _well_ before Delphi 5
>
> With apologies to JK, he is trying to rewrite history.
With apologies to you, I think perhaps he is _relating_ a history to which he
is more privy than either you or I. I note that JK's observation of the time
was the it was known as Delphi _within_ Borland, which isn't to say that the
public adoption or promotion of that as the name of the language necessarily
occured at the same time.
Quite conceivably Borland deliberately chose to promote the recognition of the
language as Pascal as a way of increasing the chances of the language being
accepted.
Maybe? Just thinking out loud.
But if you wish to use public Delphi reference materials to discern the
CURRENT (or at least, most recent) state of affairs without resorting to
ancient history - either as originally scribed or allegedly re-written:
<quote>
Delphi is a high-level, compiled, strongly typed language that supports
structured and object-oriented design. Based on Object Pascal, ...
</quote>
Ref: Delphi 7 - "**DELPHI** LANGUAGE GUIDE"
or even more recent (dare I say _current_):
<quote>
The Delphi Language guide describes the Delphi language as it is used in
Borland development tools.
</quote>
Ref: Turbo Delphi.32 Explorer "*DELPHI* LANGUAGE GUIDE"
Source: The producer of the product + manual, not
some muddled third-party author.
;)
--
Jolyon
Andrea Raimondi
> That's not the case. It's a very Delphi-like experience, but it is all
> PHP code.
>
My comments are here:
http://www.andrearaimondi.net/index.php?m=02&y=07&entry=entry070221-003113
Andrew
--
You can subscribe my blog at
http://www.andrearaimondi.net/rss.php or
http://www.andrearaimondi.net/atom.php
Francois Malan
> Steve M wrote:
>
> >
> > I really think CodeGear is making a big mistake calling it Delphi
> > for PHP. I'm not seeing anyone on this NG that thinks the new
> > product should have a Delphi prefix - it's confusing!
>
> All of your "Delphi" skills can be carried over to Delphi PHP. It all
> should be very familiar to Delphi developers -- event driven
> programming, components, component building, the Object Inspector --
> except you code in PHP and not Object Pascal.
So if a company puts out an advert for a Delphi programmer, would that
imply someone with ObjectPascal or PHP knowledge or both?
If the name Delphi should become a branding then why not prefix
<everything> with Delphi, this will yield:
* Delphi ObjectPascal
* Delphi ObjectPascal.NET
* Delphi C++
* Delphi C#
* Delphi PHP
Prefixing it with PHP alone just does not make sence to me as a 10
year+ user.
--
Bob
> * Delphi ObjectPascal.NET
> * Delphi C++
> * Delphi C#
> * Delphi PHP
This could work.
After all, MS have Visual everything including Visual Catfood.
Roddy Pratt
> I have no idea, but you may well consider this a notice of intent
An even stronger message is on the last page of their - painlessly
short- survey - If you're even just *contemplating* RoR, take a look.
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=187863298831
--
Jon Robertson
>Does the download link on the second one work for anyone else?
Not me. I get a 404 error.
Brad White
news:45db2c7d$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> All of your "Delphi" skills can be carried over to Delphi PHP. It all
> should be very familiar to Delphi developers -- event driven
> programming, components, component building, the Object Inspector --
> except you code in PHP and not Object Pascal.
>
Nick,
Is it using the Galileo IDE?
Looks very familiar.
If that's the case, then I can see where
Delphi for PHP might be justified.
--
Thanks,
Brad.
Nick Hodges (CodeGear)
> Is it using the Galileo IDE?
No.
>Looks very familiar.
Yeah it does, doesn't it? ;-)
42
"Nick Hodges (CodeGear)" <nick....@codegear.com> wrote in message news:45db77d0$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> Eddie Shipman wrote:
>
>> 5. "CodeGear PHP Developer" would be better suggestion.
>
> Just an aside -- the PHP people require that any name associated with
> PHP be "<whatever> for PHP".
>
> I don't know why others get away with it -- but we want, of course, to
> follow the "rules of the game."
If you MUST have Delphi in the name somewhere and it HAS to be called
"<whatever> for PHP", I suggest you call it "Delphi IDE for PHP".
CALLING IT "Delphi for PHP" IS A HORRIBLE IDEA!
I haven't seen this mentioned: "Delphi for Win32" and "Delphi for .NET"
are both well known. If you call the product "Delphi for PHP", it shows
that people at CodeGear believe that PHP is not just a language....
Robert Love
> All of your "Delphi" skills can be carried over to Delphi PHP. It all
> should be very familiar to Delphi developers -- event driven
> programming, components, component building, the Object Inspector --
> except you code in PHP and not Object Pascal.
So is C++ Builder going to be renamed: Delphi for C++?
Is Object Pascal coming back?
What does the name "Delphi" mean?
Who is on First?
--
Francois Malan
Also, is DCC32.exe going to be renamed? I presume the "D" means Delphi
right? In that case Delphi Commandline Compiler is incorrect IMO.
--
Gbenga Abimbola
I read sometimes ago that original Java from Borland had
some components based in Delphi.
Mark L. Tiede
product? If not, then it will just muddy the Delphi message.
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> Is there really any Delphi LANGUAGE in this product?
Apparently not.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Useful articles about InterBase development:
http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz/category/21.aspx
Steve Maughan
> Yeah, I was wondering the same. Is there really any Delphi LANGUAGE in
> this product? If not, then it will just muddy the Delphi message.
No - there is no Delphi language component in the product. None at all - no
Pascal, no OP.
And yes this does muddy the water. I personally think it damages the true
Delphi language. I've made my points in this and other thread. I just
think it's too late to change the name. Let's hope the new product flops
quickly and people forget about it.
Steve
Brion L. Webster
>I read sometimes ago that original Java from Borland had
>some components based in Delphi.
JBuilder 1 -> 2.5 (or 3.5) was written in Delphi, gradually replacing more
and more Delphi parts with Java parts.
--
-Brion
There's no such thing as 'one, true way;'
- Mercedes Lackey
Gbenga Abimbola
Maybe Delphi is now almost a philosophy or an
idea: Sophistication.
Why not just change everything to bear Delphi (like IBM
did Visual Age for C++, Visual Age for...).
Thus, CG could start naming their products, based on Delphi's
idea thus:
Delphi for Delphi ( -- Win32)
Delphi for .NET (.NET)
Delphi for C++ (.NET or Win 32)
Delphi for C
Delphi for PHP
Delphi for Python
Delphi for Rudy
Delphi for...
Wayne Niddery [TeamB]
>
> Apparently not.
I sent news of the new product to a local colleague who is heavy into PHP.
His immediate reply to me was: "Why would I want to write Delphi code to
generate PHP?"
Unfortunately I expect this is going to be the typical notion potential
customers, who know what Delphi is, are going to have - that they would be
writing in Delphi and the compiler will spit out PHP.
--
Wayne Niddery - Winwright, Inc (www.winwright.ca)
Working for yourself is great because you get to work half days, and
you can choose any twelve hours you want.
Barry Kelly (CodeGear)
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> Gbenga Abimbola wrote:
>
> > Delphi for Rudy
>
> LOL!
That one would do duck typing. ;)
I guess I shouldn't laugh too hard since Delphi for Win32 already
kinda does this with GetEnumerator....
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] · Vertex Systems Corp. · Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://blogs.teamb.com/craigstuntz
Please read and follow Borland's rules for the user of their
server: http://support.borland.com/entry.jspa?externalID=293
Steve Maughan
I agree. And then I'm sure there will be some poor Delphi developer that
wants their money back when they unwrap the product and find that they
cannot use their Delphi skills to create PHP.
Steve
"Wayne Niddery [TeamB]" <wnid...@chaffaci.on.ca> wrote in message
news:45e4...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Steve Maughan
How about Delphi^2 i.e Delphi squared.
> Delphi for .NET (.NET)
> Delphi for C++ (.NET or Win 32)
> Delphi for C
> Delphi for PHP
> Delphi for Python
> Delphi for Rudy
> Delphi for...
It's a good way to kill a Pascal brand
Steve
Tony Bryer
> I've made my points in this and other thread. I just
> think it's too late to change the name. Let's hope the new product
> flops quickly and people forget about it.
I want it (and CodeGear) to be a huge success. Which is why I (one of
many) was so exercised by the choice of name. And likewise the press:
"This is also a product with a curious name. Delphi for PHP does not
use the Delphi language, which is a variant of Pascal, nor does it use
the Delphi IDE, now called BDS (Borland Developer Studio).".
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/02/26/delphi_php/
If a writer is limited to x00 words do CodeGear really want some of
them being used discussing the misleading name?
Are there any precedents for successful name changes?
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' www.sda.co.uk
Software Industry Conference 2007 sponsor www.sic.org
Hyatt TechCenter, Denver, July 12-14, 2007
Jeff
It's called "Brand Equity Dilution" or simply "Brand Dilution" (Google
on it) and it's an unforgivable mistake. Marketing 101 type stuff,
really. While I'm confident the CodeGear developers are top notch and
will turn out a first rate product, the marketing powers-that-be
should be fired, plain and simple.
--
- Jeff
Gbenga Abimbola
Me too. LOL: Name mangling!
Steve Maughan
The whole "Delphi for PHP" naming debacle has crystallized in my mind that
I'm more committed to Delphi as a Pascal derived development environment
than I am to CodeGear. Sure I want CodeGear to succeed but only if Pascal
Delphi succeeds too. If CodeGear are going to trash the Delphi language and
brand, which IMO the naming of the D4PHP product is just such an action,
then I'd rather Pascal Delphi goes open source and has a strong future.
To say that I hope D4PHP is a flop is a little bit of an exaggeration since
I'll probably buy the product myself. You may be one of many that think
it's a great name but you're still in a small minority IMO. As so many have
said in this and other threads the name just confuses the market and mudies
the brand. Basically, many of the PHP folks will be not interested as
they'll assume it's a Pascal based product and many of the Delphi Win 32
people will be miffed thta it doesn't contain any Pascal.
As for your question:
> Are there any precedents for successful name changes?
Not sure exactly what you're saying here. The product has no links to
Delphi Win32 (i.e. not Pascal based, not the same IDE) other than it was
written in Delphi, which is irrelivant, so we're not changing Delphi's name.
But yes there are plenty of successful examples of brand name changes:
Cingular -> at&t
Marathon -> Snickers (maybe UK only)
Andersen Consulting -> Accenture
I hope I'm wrong but IMO it's a huge marketing mistake that affects more
than just the PHP product.
Regards,
Steve
PS the article states that it's a curious name - they don't say that they
like the name
"Tony Bryer" <to...@sda.co.uk> wrote in message
news:VA.0000036...@sda.co.uk...