Attention: HLP file format is phased out
Arthur Hoornweg
those of you that still deploy help files in *.HLP format may be
interested to
read this: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607/EN-US/
Quote:
"Therefore, starting with the Microsoft Windows Vista and the Microsoft
Windows Server Code Name "Longhorn" operating system releases, the
Windows Help program will not ship as a component of Windows.
Also, third-party programs that include .hlp files are *prohibited* from
redistributing the Windows Help program together with their products"
Yesterday, in the thread "Munich begins Linux replacement of
Windows", I mentioned the inherent dangers of closed-source file
formats and applications; that information will invariably get lost
if the supporting applications or hardware are considered obsolete.
The HLP file format is a prime example.
There's only one viewer application available and that's from Microsoft.
It used to be part of Windows and everybody took it for granted.
Now it's going to be phased out, and 10-15 years from now, nobody will
be able to read those files again. Knowledge will be lost because of this.
--
Arthur Hoornweg
(In order to reply per e-mail, please just remove the ".net"
from my e-mail address. Leave the rest of the address intact
including the "antispam" part. I had to take this measure to
counteract unsollicited mail.)
Uffe Kousgaard
news:453480fb$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> "Therefore, starting with the Microsoft Windows Vista and the Microsoft
> Windows Server Code Name "Longhorn" operating system releases, the
> Windows Help program will not ship as a component of Windows.
> Also, third-party programs that include .hlp files are *prohibited* from
> redistributing the Windows Help program together with their products"
Hopefully we can still run the D7 help on vista, if we copy the .hlp viewer
from xp?
Tiberiu Horvath
Tiberiu
"Arthur Hoornweg" <antispam...@casema.nl.net> wrote in message
news:453480fb$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> It used to be part of Windows and everybody took it for granted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 569 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Try SPAMfighter for free now!
Chris Burrows
news:453480fb$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> Windows Server Code Name "Longhorn" operating system releases, the
> Windows Help program will not ship as a component of Windows.
I, for one, am pleased to hear that news. Three (or more?) help systems is
way too many.
>
> There's only one viewer application available and that's from Microsoft.
> It used to be part of Windows and everybody took it for granted.
> Now it's going to be phased out, and 10-15 years from now, nobody will
> be able to read those files again. Knowledge will be lost because of this.
>
I bet that some enterprising individual is already working on a clone.
Actually, I have an idea that at least one already exists.
--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp
Pete Fraser
it's not a major problem.
HTH Pete
"Arthur Hoornweg" <antispam...@casema.nl.net> wrote in
message news:453480fb$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
theo
>
> There's only one viewer application available and that's from Microsoft.
> It used to be part of Windows and everybody took it for granted.
> Now it's going to be phased out, and 10-15 years from now, nobody will
> be able to read those files again. Knowledge will be lost because of this.
>
>
>
theo@linux:~> wine help
;-)
Eric Grange
> it's not a major problem.
Since you can't redistribute the viewer, it's going to be a problem, as
each and every customer will have to go download and install it from MS.
The Help Viewer executable is so small (compared to the rest of Vista),
and its dependencies are so limited... one has to wonder why it was cut
out while so many other oldies weren't. Maybe the HTMLHelp team wanted
to make it less visible that the HTMLHelp full text search is so poorly
executed that it can't compete with a Win3.1 era FTS?
Eric
Pete Fraser
I personally prefer HtmlHelp - it does have some nice
features - tables in text and the ability to show or hide
text sections on a page without re-loading a new page using
page based scripts. But as you say it is slower which is a
problem.
Rgds Pete
"Eric Grange" <egra...@SPAMglscene.org> wrote in message
news:45349566$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Marco van de Voort
> those of you that still deploy help files in *.HLP format may be
> interested to
> read this: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607/EN-US/
>
> Quote:
>
> "Therefore, starting with the Microsoft Windows Vista and the Microsoft
> Windows Server Code Name "Longhorn" operating system releases, the
> Windows Help program will not ship as a component of Windows.
IOW, you have to add it.
> Also, third-party programs that include .hlp files are *prohibited* from
> redistributing the Windows Help program together with their products"
Now, to encourage people into thinking they really _should_ update. Of
course after a while, the flak of the customers gets to bad, and it is added
again as a little option here or there.
> There's only one viewer application available and that's from Microsoft.
This is not true. Also while the thing is a bit proprietary, the basic form
is actually not THAT proprietary. It is pretty much a phrase+hufman
compressed RTF with a B+tree in front of it.
Decompressors are available, libraries have been duplicated by both samba
and wine (CAB uses the same compression) and are standardly installed on
Linux.
In practice, the versioning chaos of the multimediaextensions to RTF are a
bigger problem than the archive format. Pretty much the same as with CHM and
HTML.
Eric Grange
Speed isn't as much an issue for me as the search, which is IMO very
inconvenient - and often insists on spilling out irrelevant results first ;)
In WinHelp, you can get word suggestions while typing in the full text
search window, which means that when you aren't sure of the spelling,
you can quickly see it. Matching page results also update interactively,
which is very helpful when you need more than one word to help narrow
down the search.
Eric
Kostya
> search window, which means that when you aren't sure of the spelling,
> you can quickly see it. Matching page results also update interactively,
> which is very helpful when you need more than one word to help narrow
> down the search.
This pathological desire to take something that works well and
replace with some ugly crap drives me nuts. Personally I think
that they just want to bump use of IE.
Michael Skachkov
but as for BDS - I guess it should have it's own help format.
Regards,
Michael Skachkov
Arthur Hoornweg
> But... there will be a downloadable help viewer available so
> it's not a major problem.
... but for how long? and we may not redistribute it.
And will it remain compatible with future versions of Windoze?
Arthur Hoornweg
> LOL
> I personally prefer HtmlHelp - it does have some nice
> features -
I don't argue with that, fully agree, but Microsoft has a monopoly with
the HLP file format (no other viewers exist) and forbids the deployment
of the viewer. Our company happens to have an extensive "knowledge
base" in HLP file format.
Arthur Hoornweg
> This is not true. Also while the thing is a bit proprietary, the basic form
> is actually not THAT proprietary. It is pretty much a phrase+hufman
> compressed RTF with a B+tree in front of it.
>
> Decompressors are available, libraries have been duplicated by both samba
> and wine (CAB uses the same compression) and are standardly installed on
> Linux.
But is there a working viewing application around? I know of none.
Nobody has thought it worthwhile developing, because it was "included
with Windows" and "free". We just took it for granted.
Even though HLP is not a very good file format, it's the principle that
counts:
The long-term availability of information in a proprietary format is
just not guaranteed.
wiggum
>Marco van de Voort wrote:
>
>> This is not true. Also while the thing is a bit proprietary, the basic form
>> is actually not THAT proprietary. It is pretty much a phrase+hufman
>> compressed RTF with a B+tree in front of it.
>>
>> Decompressors are available, libraries have been duplicated by both samba
>> and wine (CAB uses the same compression) and are standardly installed on
>> Linux.
>
>But is there a working viewing application around?
Maybe not. But there are many applications that can extract text
from .hlp files, for example Help & Manual.
Chester and the water hose blues band
>
> I bet that some enterprising individual is already working on a clone.
> Actually, I have an idea that at least one already exists.
>
I.P. Nichols
> Pete Fraser wrote:
>
>> But... there will be a downloadable help viewer available so it's not a
>> major problem.
>
> ... but for how long? and we may not redistribute it.
Oh probably until long after Delphi is dead and buried. <r, d &h>
> And will it remain compatible with future versions of Windoze?
Where does one look to find this Windoze, or is it just a sleepy version of
Windows?
Ron L.
news:4534...@newsgroups.borland.com...
I remember talking with Ralph Walden (WinHelp development lead at Microsoft
at time) when the first version of HTML Help was shown (I am thinking
1997/1998 - but do not quote me on the date). The reasons they went to this
format (if memory serves) was because it allowed them to consolidate Web and
Help documentation using the same format (HTML instead of RTF) and there
were enough size limits in the original HLP format that they started to bump
against them in tools like the MSDN (which was based on MediaView - an
extension of the WinHelp format that could have embedded videos etc...)
So basically - since they knew they are already running out of space in the
.HLP format - they decided to take the opportunity and base the input source
on HTML which they estimated (correctly, as we have been proved) would
overtake RTF in popularity.
This basically was the reason for the change - I am guessing that since they
spent a lot of development time on the HTML based formats from there on -
WinHelp got very little (or no) development and at this point it is just too
out of date.
Paul Dolen
>spent a lot of development time on the HTML based formats from there on -
>WinHelp got very little (or no) development and at this point it is just too
>out of date.
Nothing you said sounds wrong, but it still seems wrong to not ship
WinHelp support with Vista as there is still lots of programs in the
world that use it. Its not like they were running out of space on the
DVD and needed to jettison stuff.
Markus Humm
>
> So basically - since they knew they are already running out of space in the
> .HLP format - they decided to take the opportunity and base the input source
> on HTML which they estimated (correctly, as we have been proved) would
> overtake RTF in popularity.
>
> This basically was the reason for the change - I am guessing that since they
> spent a lot of development time on the HTML based formats from there on -
> WinHelp got very little (or no) development and at this point it is just too
> out of date.
>
This may be true but doesn't explain why this program won't be shipped
with Vista anymore. Its like the windows ressource kits shipped
somewhere on most Windows CDs. They rather let you install a bunch of
crap with the main install which can be removed later but such good
tools aren't included with the main install. Who decided that way at M$?
In earlier days you could deselect the games for instance before
actually install, now you can only remove them later after installation.
But games on a server?
Greetings
Markus
Ron L.
news:596aj2dlplp7bsbec...@4ax.com...
I was refering to the comment about change for change sake... - there was a
reason for the move from WinHelp to HTML Help and it was not based on the
need to distribute MSIE.
As for the current reason for not shipping with Vista... I do not really
know why this is the case - Microsoft claims that the product does not match
the safety standards they set for Vista and it would require a rewrite from
scratch to solve that - I have no idea if this is true or not and I no
longer know the people that work on these technologies at Microsoft.
Markus Humm
Yrs this is true and the HTMLHelp support in BDS is still a bit buggy so
it seems to be time for DTG to revisit the open bugs in QC and fix them.
I could remove my patched VCL-source then! ;-) (okay my patch isn't a
complete fix but better than nothing)
Greetings
Markus
Daniel Rail
"Uffe Kousgaard" <o...@no.no> wrote in message
news:4534...@newsgroups.borland.com...
You will be able to download it from Microsoft's Download Center. It's
mentioned in the link that Arthur provided.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Rail
ACCRA Solutions Inc.(www.accra.ca)
ACCRA Med Software Inc.(www.filopto.com)
Tony Bryer
That's been done a long time ago surely. Fast-Help will create a database
from an existing HLP file then recreate it in HTML Help, web pages or a
PDF file.
My understanding is that HLP is being dropped because it allows things
more clever than I have ever explored such as macros which run programs
automatically.
--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Shareware Industry Conference 2006 sponsor www.sic.org
Kostya
Those were reasons to introduce new format. They
have no reason whatsoever to remove the old one
from Vista. That thing bout security is baloney.
Ron L.
Since I not longer have access to the team members there - I do not really
know why the removed it - but I suspect that there was a good reason to
remove it because of security concerns - I wrote some low-level code using
the MediaView and WinHelp engine way back in the mid-late 90s and it was
easy to cause an aweful lot of trouble with it then - I actually have some
code somewhere that can actually embed forms, html, scripts and an aweful
lot of other stuff in the engine - but it has no security what so ever (it
is based on code developed before Windows 3.0) and since it has not been
maintained much (given it's archive size restrictions) and would require a
rewrite from scratch to really deal with a networked, worm infested world -
I suspect this is probably a reasonable decision from Microsoft's point of
view. There have been replacement methods for help available since
1997/1998 - it really seems like that is enough time for vendors to port
their help to a more modern solution and do it right.
You can inspect the AP team blog at http://blogs.msdn.com/apblog/ and see
that they have been discussing it for some time now.
Alexander Halser
There are a couple of them for Linux and one that I know for Windows:
http://www.kamasoftware.com/helpexplorer.php
However, if you want to deploy the viewer with your application, there are
considerable licensing costs. It could be cheaper to convert the old HLP
sources to HTML Help.
--
Alexander Halser
_________________________________________
EC Software GmbH - http://www.ec-software.com
Publishers of Help & Manual + TNT Screen Capture
Phillip Woon
tool that came bundled with Delphi. Name another Borland component
that went away (a component that wasn't a third-party tool).
Tiberiu Horvath wrote:
> QReport used to be part of Delphi and everybody took it for granted.
>
> Tiberiu
>
>
> "Arthur Hoornweg" <antispam...@casema.nl.net> wrote in message
> news:453480fb$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> > It used to be part of Windows and everybody took it for granted.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private
> users. It has removed 569 spam emails to date.
> Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
> Try SPAMfighter for free now!
--
Robert Small
>"Therefore, starting with the Microsoft Windows Vista and the Microsoft
>Windows Server Code Name "Longhorn" operating system releases, the
>Windows Help program will not ship as a component of Windows.
>Also, third-party programs that include .hlp files are *prohibited* from
>redistributing the Windows Help program together with their products"
I have run into some limitations in the WinHelp file generator I had
been using (HDK if anyone is interested) and switched over to
Help&Manual. Which works fine.
I intended to convert my help to HTMLHelp at the same time.
But I discovered a real showstopper.
When the HTML help is opened from my application (by any of the usual
methods, a Help button or F1), and then closed, there is a period of
time (and the length of this time seems to vary from 'almost nothing'
to a couple of seconds) when any action on my application (press a
button, or move a dialog) cause the entire application to "freeze".
This was initially discovered with D6 and a custom HTMLViewer unit.
Thinking that the problem might be fixed with a later version, I tried
with the latest TDE (which has its own HTMLViewer unit) but the
problem still exists.
I suspect that there is some "messaging" taking place between the
shuting down HTMLHelp OCX and my app, and that until this completes,
everything else is blocked.
For me, its a showstopper. I cannot use HTML Help.
Has anyone else seen this behaviour?
I raised QC 34808 which describes a very simple test case.
--
Bob Small
Chris Burrows
news:jj2bj2l2hegion67s...@4ax.com...
>
> For me, its a showstopper. I cannot use HTML Help.
>
> Has anyone else seen this behaviour?
>
> I raised QC 34808 which describes a very simple test case.
Have you tried it on more than one system?
What is your operating environment?
I couldn't reproduce the problem on WinXP, SP2 on a 3.4 Ghz P4 with 1Gb of
RAM.
--
Chris Burrows
CFB Software
http://www.cfbsoftware.com/gpcp
Tiberiu Horvath
really complicated, so migrating from D6 to Turbo Delphi is not an easy
task. Anyway, I ordered some Turbo Delphi licenses yesterday. And I need QR
licences.
At
http://www.qusoft.com/ordering.html : "QuickReport 4 Professional costs only
£149"
at
http://www.qbssoftware.com/quickrep it says that it costs £175.08
Maybe having their (Borland, DTG) own reporting tool would have been a wise
decision. Buying QuSoft ?
What if at the next Delphi release, Nevrona (Rave Reports) make the same
decision as QuSoft did ?
Tiberiu
"Phillip Woon" <pw...@woontech.com> wrote in message
news:4535...@newsgroups.borland.com...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 602 spam emails to date.
Chris Burrows
news:4535...@newsgroups.borland.com...
>
> Maybe having their (Borland, DTG) own reporting tool would have been a
> wise decision. Buying QuSoft ?
>
I agree. Actually Borland used to have their own reporting tool
(ReportSmith). I think it was bundled with D1.
Arthur Hoornweg
> You will be able to download it from Microsoft's Download Center. It's
> mentioned in the link that Arthur provided.
For the time being, yes. But the time will come that 32-bit applications
will be
obsolete and MS certainly won't port this application to Win64 or Win128...
It would have been sympathetic if MS had open-sourced the Winhelp
application or had provided a migration tool.
Ottar Holstad
> wise decision. Buying QuSoft ?
I kind of agree, but then again this would ruin the third-party
reportingtool-market, which, in the end, might not be any better.
> What if at the next Delphi release, Nevrona (Rave Reports) make the same
> decision as QuSoft did ?
I'm sure this wasn't Qusoft's decision, but Borland's. Rave Reports works
with CLX (I think, I have never used it), and Borland needed that for Kylix
Chris Burrows
>
> It would have been sympathetic if MS had open-sourced the Winhelp
> application or had provided a migration tool.
>
Microsoft's HTML Help Workshop has a feature designed to allow you to
convert an existing WinHelp project into an HTML Help project. It has been
several years since I used it to convert my help files. I seem to there was
still a lot of grunt work that had to be done but it was a lot better than
nothing.
Go to Microsoft downloads at:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads
and search for 'help workshop'
Marco van de Voort
> Marco van de Voort wrote:
>
>> This is not true. Also while the thing is a bit proprietary, the basic form
>> is actually not THAT proprietary. It is pretty much a phrase+hufman
>> compressed RTF with a B+tree in front of it.
>>
>> Decompressors are available, libraries have been duplicated by both samba
>> and wine (CAB uses the same compression) and are standardly installed on
>> Linux.
>
> But is there a working viewing application around? I know of none.
The textmode IDE of Free Pascal :-)
There is also "helpdeco". (helpdc21 the archive is called), and various doc
generators can write it.
> Even though HLP is not a very good file format, it's the principle that
> counts:
>
> The long-term availability of information in a proprietary format is
> just not guaranteed.
Better keep the proprietary formats that actually are doable around, and
kill the so called open formats that don't work.
To come back on your statement, the availability of the information should
be the main focus, not some crusade against proprietary formats.
I don't like the proprietary formats more than the avg Open Source guy, but
I prefer some realism in this. Formats that have paralel implementations and
documentation on the net are not the problem. The relevant OSS development
power can better get spent elsewhere.
Marco van de Voort
> Daniel Rail wrote:
>
>> You will be able to download it from Microsoft's Download Center. It's
>> mentioned in the link that Arthur provided.
>
> For the time being, yes. But the time will come that 32-bit applications
> will be obsolete and MS certainly won't port this application to Win64 or
> Win128...
I wouldn't give a dime for the other MS formats still being around at that
time too. Or any currently used help system for that matter.
Despite the doom over the win32 in groups like this, win32 is going to stay
around till at least 2015 in some form or the other.
Markus Humm
For the security thing you might be right, but: on the DVD is surely
some space to include it. No need to deliver it as download only. I'm
sure they deliver less usefull things on the DVD like additional themes
etc. instead of delivering the really valuable things!
Greetings
Markus
Robert Small
>"Robert Small" <m...@noisp.com> wrote in message
>news:jj2bj2l2hegion67s...@4ax.com...
>>
>> For me, its a showstopper. I cannot use HTML Help.
>>
>> Has anyone else seen this behaviour?
>>
>> I raised QC 34808 which describes a very simple test case.
>
>Have you tried it on more than one system?
>
>What is your operating environment?
>
>I couldn't reproduce the problem on WinXP, SP2 on a 3.4 Ghz P4 with 1Gb of
>RAM.
Iteresting.
I tried again on my development system (WinXP SP2 with all updates,
AMD 1.3GHz, 1GB RAM) and it is very reproducable.
However, on my laptop (Dell Precision) it is OK.
I need to dig a bit deeper on this one.
--
Bob Small
Chris Burrows
>
> Iteresting.
>
> I tried again on my development system (WinXP SP2 with all updates,
> AMD 1.3GHz, 1GB RAM) and it is very reproducable.
>
> However, on my laptop (Dell Precision) it is OK.
>
> I need to dig a bit deeper on this one.
Googling for this problem brings up recommendations to reinstall the HTML
Help viewer. However, it seems that you can only do that on XP with the
relevant service pack, not by reinstalling the redistributable.
Use the Event Viewer in Admin. Tools > Component Services to see if there
have been any warnings / errors logged related to HTML Help.
Robert Small
Yes, error messages like this
"Hanging application SusProg3D.exe, version 4.79.581.0, hang module
hungapp, version 0.0.0.0, hang address 0x00000000."
But nothing else for the same date.
--
Bob Small